Looking for tower ATCO training (or ATSA jobs)
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Hi Duncan
Ok Duncan?
Sorry to hear about the approach course it was a bit of a shock for people who know you and are away from the college, when everyone was so close to passing.
Good to see that you are getting lots of good and advice and that you are still going for the job you want. It certainly can take a lot of perseverance to get through the training i certainly can vouch for that.
Any way just wanted to say all the best for the future and keep in touch.
Pingu
P.S Connex i can assure you that as a TATC holding with the ATSA's they are an integral part of the team. From personal experience the information and teaching that I have received from ATSA's at EGPH and EGHI have helped me no end with my studies.
Sorry to hear about the approach course it was a bit of a shock for people who know you and are away from the college, when everyone was so close to passing.
Good to see that you are getting lots of good and advice and that you are still going for the job you want. It certainly can take a lot of perseverance to get through the training i certainly can vouch for that.
Any way just wanted to say all the best for the future and keep in touch.
Pingu
P.S Connex i can assure you that as a TATC holding with the ATSA's they are an integral part of the team. From personal experience the information and teaching that I have received from ATSA's at EGPH and EGHI have helped me no end with my studies.
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2 sheds - I *think* I know who you are - but I won't let on! Thanks for the note - I'm not giving up that easily but a FISO licence sounds like a possibility, perhaps when I start building up rejection letters!
'Lost' - work hard mate - it's a lonely world to begin with when they close the door behind you. Knowing you you'll be better tha fine though. My card playing's getting rusty already, but no doubt Gatwick's general card skills have improved courtesy of you know who...
Had a look, but Eurocontrol won't take a NATS failure, but right now I think I need some real world experience!!
Pingu - I forgot that you would have been a little out of the loop, and thanks for your comments. Happy New Year - I think! Get back to the college and do some work!
D in D.
'Lost' - work hard mate - it's a lonely world to begin with when they close the door behind you. Knowing you you'll be better tha fine though. My card playing's getting rusty already, but no doubt Gatwick's general card skills have improved courtesy of you know who...
Had a look, but Eurocontrol won't take a NATS failure, but right now I think I need some real world experience!!
Pingu - I forgot that you would have been a little out of the loop, and thanks for your comments. Happy New Year - I think! Get back to the college and do some work!
D in D.
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Hi all!
'...but no doubt Gatwick's general card skills have improved courtesy of you know who...'
Could that be me by any chance?
Dunc I will continue to do what I can to help you wrt to possible posts becoming available. There has been a load of good advice here and it is cool to hear from everyone!
I havent managed to get a game of sh1thead in at the unit yet. Damn shame
LORI
'...but no doubt Gatwick's general card skills have improved courtesy of you know who...'
Could that be me by any chance?
Dunc I will continue to do what I can to help you wrt to possible posts becoming available. There has been a load of good advice here and it is cool to hear from everyone!I havent managed to get a game of sh1thead in at the unit yet. Damn shame
LORI
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Connex
As you may already know I admire you greatly for sticking to your guns and being as upholding with some of your principles as you are
Being so forthright I do hope you're an Union rep?
BUT - I really really really can't relate to "ATCOs think we are overpaid, have little or no value/importance, and all we are good for is reading newspapers all day."
I know of maybe one colleague with that attitude - perhaps not even he/she to be honest.
Being so forthright I do hope you're an Union rep?
BUT - I really really really can't relate to "ATCOs think we are overpaid, have little or no value/importance, and all we are good for is reading newspapers all day."
I know of maybe one colleague with that attitude - perhaps not even he/she to be honest.
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I gave this advice to a previous ppruner. Go and get a loan and take the procedural rating. I know it's a lot of money, but if you are confident that you can do the job then it's worth it. Once you pass then ADC/APC ratings increase your employment rating by far. As previous people have said there are far too many ex cadets with ADC only. It's like someone leaving school with one O'level rather than eight. Who would you employ? Unfortunately, you have failed part of the course. This does not mean that you would not be a good controller but that is a fault of the system. The college does not bear any resemblance to the real world and I think that the whole training system should be changed. NATS do get rid of some cadets who can do the job and some whe can't. If you really believe you can do the job confidently and professionally then there should be no reason to stop you. Think of all the ATPL's who have funded themselves privately and now working for major airlines. They might of borrowed 60k and paying off slowly but they are doing what they want to do for a living. What about university students and their loans?
I hope this advice may give you another insight to furthering your career, and hope you get what you want but you must realise that you cannot always rely on another company carrying on from where you left off. Listen to what everyone else has said and leave no avenue unexplored. All the replies you have had are from personal experience (I think), and you are quite lucky that that you are having help. This forum was not about in my early days but we all know the system and have lost many friends because of it. I've heard speeches and seen tears over lost colleagues but to no avail. It's a bitch.
Why not train as an ATPL, it's easier. Good Luck
I hope this advice may give you another insight to furthering your career, and hope you get what you want but you must realise that you cannot always rely on another company carrying on from where you left off. Listen to what everyone else has said and leave no avenue unexplored. All the replies you have had are from personal experience (I think), and you are quite lucky that that you are having help. This forum was not about in my early days but we all know the system and have lost many friends because of it. I've heard speeches and seen tears over lost colleagues but to no avail. It's a bitch.
Why not train as an ATPL, it's easier. Good Luck
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Niteflite01 –
Sorry to disappoint – I am not a Union rep. They wouldn’t want me upsetting the applecart at the meetings! I am, however, a Union member, and yes, I do speak to my reps, who respond with selective hearing and a penchant for keeping all information to themselves. I am never informed of anything directly – it always comes from alternative sources. I suppose I’m just too confrontational for them. (By the way, have you been given any information about the ATSA pay negotiations as of today?)
As for the “ATCOs think we’re overpaid etc etc” – sorry, but I have had that little chestnut levelled at me at both my Unit and on this forum. I can remember being told of the ATCO/ATSA divide on my first day – many years have passed since then, but the situation is still the same. The retirement of some of the old Civil Service/ex-RAF personnel has eased the situation somewhat, and I am the first to admit that not all ATCOs share this feeling, but some definitely do. The worrying trend is the appearance of this phenomenon within the ranks of new/student ATCOs fresh from the College. What ARE they teaching them down there?
Partly Achieved-
I accept your points about the courses, although I would point out that neither one is relevant when placed against the Unit ATSA validation, which is the one that really counts. If they can’t pass that, then they’re in the sh*t. The only reason they are retained is because the Company has shelled out a lot of time and hard cash on them before they bombed out – not because they’re good ATSA material. The Company’s idealogy and attitude with regard to ATSA promotion, selection etc is completely farcical. The Union doesn’t help the situation because it allows it to go unchallenged.
I keep my ear to the ATSA grapevine, and liase regularly with friends at other Units. Perhaps somebody should ask the EGLL ATSAs – not the ATCOs - if the appointment of ex-cadets over the years has been a resounding success? (I doubt that you will get a response on here, however).
The best people to judge whether ex-cadets make good Assistants are the Assistants themselves. I do not accept, nor support the belief that they do – their heart is not in it.
Sorry to disappoint – I am not a Union rep. They wouldn’t want me upsetting the applecart at the meetings! I am, however, a Union member, and yes, I do speak to my reps, who respond with selective hearing and a penchant for keeping all information to themselves. I am never informed of anything directly – it always comes from alternative sources. I suppose I’m just too confrontational for them. (By the way, have you been given any information about the ATSA pay negotiations as of today?)
As for the “ATCOs think we’re overpaid etc etc” – sorry, but I have had that little chestnut levelled at me at both my Unit and on this forum. I can remember being told of the ATCO/ATSA divide on my first day – many years have passed since then, but the situation is still the same. The retirement of some of the old Civil Service/ex-RAF personnel has eased the situation somewhat, and I am the first to admit that not all ATCOs share this feeling, but some definitely do. The worrying trend is the appearance of this phenomenon within the ranks of new/student ATCOs fresh from the College. What ARE they teaching them down there?
Partly Achieved-
I accept your points about the courses, although I would point out that neither one is relevant when placed against the Unit ATSA validation, which is the one that really counts. If they can’t pass that, then they’re in the sh*t. The only reason they are retained is because the Company has shelled out a lot of time and hard cash on them before they bombed out – not because they’re good ATSA material. The Company’s idealogy and attitude with regard to ATSA promotion, selection etc is completely farcical. The Union doesn’t help the situation because it allows it to go unchallenged.
I keep my ear to the ATSA grapevine, and liase regularly with friends at other Units. Perhaps somebody should ask the EGLL ATSAs – not the ATCOs - if the appointment of ex-cadets over the years has been a resounding success? (I doubt that you will get a response on here, however).
The best people to judge whether ex-cadets make good Assistants are the Assistants themselves. I do not accept, nor support the belief that they do – their heart is not in it.
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Connex
Nope, I haven't seen anything about the ATSA's pay deal at all, in fact the only bit of info I have seen is a snippet someone gave to me that was taken from today's intranet about the pay deal being put to the union. Nothing about PCS at all, sorry.
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Connex,
its some years since I was at the college, but certainly when I was there ATSAs didn't play a prominent part within our syllabus.
I suspect if the attitude is coming out of the college it may be more to lack of knowledge and that natural arrogance that we all of us had when we first left Bournemouth.
I was told on my very first day in the real world of ATC that the college had taught me how to ride a bicycle , now I had to learn how to drive a formula one racing car.
I am unable to make any comments on how ATSAs are regarded or treated outside of my own ATC world, where I work we are a small unit and the ATSA sat beside you in Approach can make all the difference to you especially in a very busy radar session. We work as a team, no them and us, and the only them and us I have seen has been from some now retired ATSAs at a previous unit of mine.
Regarding should failed students be offered the opportunity of retraining as ATSAs. I am glad i am in a company who try to find alternative employment for failed students, whether an ATSA position is apt should be down to the individual concerned. I would like to see a proper selection process applied and more importantly a proper training course and Unit training plan for all new ATSA staff.
I can understand the great disappointment of those failed students and possibly the chip on a few of their shoulders will disappear with time.
I believe the ability of units to be able to employ their own ATSA staff recruiting locally is more appropriate however, perhaps then we will get people in who genuinely wish to do the work and don't in some way feel it is a let down.
its some years since I was at the college, but certainly when I was there ATSAs didn't play a prominent part within our syllabus.
I suspect if the attitude is coming out of the college it may be more to lack of knowledge and that natural arrogance that we all of us had when we first left Bournemouth.
I was told on my very first day in the real world of ATC that the college had taught me how to ride a bicycle , now I had to learn how to drive a formula one racing car.
I am unable to make any comments on how ATSAs are regarded or treated outside of my own ATC world, where I work we are a small unit and the ATSA sat beside you in Approach can make all the difference to you especially in a very busy radar session. We work as a team, no them and us, and the only them and us I have seen has been from some now retired ATSAs at a previous unit of mine.
Regarding should failed students be offered the opportunity of retraining as ATSAs. I am glad i am in a company who try to find alternative employment for failed students, whether an ATSA position is apt should be down to the individual concerned. I would like to see a proper selection process applied and more importantly a proper training course and Unit training plan for all new ATSA staff.
I can understand the great disappointment of those failed students and possibly the chip on a few of their shoulders will disappear with time.
I believe the ability of units to be able to employ their own ATSA staff recruiting locally is more appropriate however, perhaps then we will get people in who genuinely wish to do the work and don't in some way feel it is a let down.
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Flower –
Some very interesting points there. First time I have ever seen an admittance of the “natural arrogance” we now regularly see in the ex-cadets, and more especially in the newly-validated ATCOs joining the Unit for local validation training. Also a surprise to see that ATSAs were also exhibiting the us-and-them syndrome – were they ex-military/Civil Service or cadet failures themselves?
I, too, support the concept of local recruitment, especially from experienced operational aviation personnel. I am also glad that the Company has a human (compassionate?) side, and sees fit to try to retain and employ persons who haven’t made the grade. However, this should not be confused with the idea that all ex-cadets should automatically be considered for ATSA posts. As I said previously, their heart is not in it, and they will inevitably jump ship at the first opportunity. It is this attitude that I strongly object to. The Company knows it goes on, but does nothing about it – and neither does the Union. All of it is achieved at the expense of an ATSA workforce which is already restricted in its promotion/transfer prospects, and looks certain to be facing dramatic change in the near future. Small wonder that some of us feel undermined and undervalued!
I do not wish to deter DinD from pursuing a successful ATC career. However, one can see from his original posting exactly where his priorities lie, and his pursuance of an ATSA position (hopefully using the Company’s policy of ex-cadet retention) is only a means of remaining within the Company until such an opportunity arises, either in or out of NATS. As I have said, this will be done at the expense of another ATSA, who may also be waiting for such a vacancy.
For those of you out there reading this who are waiting for a transfer/promotion opportunity, just remember – it might be YOUR opportunity that gets given away to an “under-achiever” on this basis - and you probably won't even know anything about it.
As an aside, and in reply to niteflite01 – the grapevine reports today that the ATSA pay award is to basically mirror the ATCO 15%, but with strings. Primarily, 8% rise, plus a further 7% conditional on our acceptance of changes to national and local WPs, tied in with 85 ATSA redundancies, the savings thus generated being put into the cashpot to be used to partly fund the ATCO pay rise!! I am already practising putting my X in the “NO” box just in case this turns out to be true!! What a f*****g nerve! Union allegedly has a meeting tomorrow, and maybe we shall learn more after that. Always a danger in listening to rumour, I admit, but it is more than is coming from the PCS hierarchy – care to comment, guys?
Some very interesting points there. First time I have ever seen an admittance of the “natural arrogance” we now regularly see in the ex-cadets, and more especially in the newly-validated ATCOs joining the Unit for local validation training. Also a surprise to see that ATSAs were also exhibiting the us-and-them syndrome – were they ex-military/Civil Service or cadet failures themselves?
I, too, support the concept of local recruitment, especially from experienced operational aviation personnel. I am also glad that the Company has a human (compassionate?) side, and sees fit to try to retain and employ persons who haven’t made the grade. However, this should not be confused with the idea that all ex-cadets should automatically be considered for ATSA posts. As I said previously, their heart is not in it, and they will inevitably jump ship at the first opportunity. It is this attitude that I strongly object to. The Company knows it goes on, but does nothing about it – and neither does the Union. All of it is achieved at the expense of an ATSA workforce which is already restricted in its promotion/transfer prospects, and looks certain to be facing dramatic change in the near future. Small wonder that some of us feel undermined and undervalued!
I do not wish to deter DinD from pursuing a successful ATC career. However, one can see from his original posting exactly where his priorities lie, and his pursuance of an ATSA position (hopefully using the Company’s policy of ex-cadet retention) is only a means of remaining within the Company until such an opportunity arises, either in or out of NATS. As I have said, this will be done at the expense of another ATSA, who may also be waiting for such a vacancy.
For those of you out there reading this who are waiting for a transfer/promotion opportunity, just remember – it might be YOUR opportunity that gets given away to an “under-achiever” on this basis - and you probably won't even know anything about it.
As an aside, and in reply to niteflite01 – the grapevine reports today that the ATSA pay award is to basically mirror the ATCO 15%, but with strings. Primarily, 8% rise, plus a further 7% conditional on our acceptance of changes to national and local WPs, tied in with 85 ATSA redundancies, the savings thus generated being put into the cashpot to be used to partly fund the ATCO pay rise!! I am already practising putting my X in the “NO” box just in case this turns out to be true!! What a f*****g nerve! Union allegedly has a meeting tomorrow, and maybe we shall learn more after that. Always a danger in listening to rumour, I admit, but it is more than is coming from the PCS hierarchy – care to comment, guys?
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Connex,
The ATSAs concerned were as far as I am aware always ATSAs employed by the CAA and then NATS.
Natural arrogance is a pre requisite for all ex students , be they ATCOs , Doctors or any other job. It is the joy of being a student to believe you know everything, it is only years on that all of us can look back and realise how little we actually knew.
The ATSAs concerned were as far as I am aware always ATSAs employed by the CAA and then NATS.
Natural arrogance is a pre requisite for all ex students , be they ATCOs , Doctors or any other job. It is the joy of being a student to believe you know everything, it is only years on that all of us can look back and realise how little we actually knew.
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ATC Training Site
Please visit http://atcea.com for information regarding Air Traffic Control Training.
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Connex,
Over the years, I have worked alongside a good number of ATSAs who are failed students.. (I am a locally-recruited ATSA myself) and can honestly say that they have been as motivated and hard-working as any of the locally-recruited ATSAs. Why waste the knowledge that they have aquired on the course?
I really dont have a problem with it.
Over the years, I have worked alongside a good number of ATSAs who are failed students.. (I am a locally-recruited ATSA myself) and can honestly say that they have been as motivated and hard-working as any of the locally-recruited ATSAs. Why waste the knowledge that they have aquired on the course?
I really dont have a problem with it.
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Barnaby the Bear –
I look at your post and I notice an instant difference in your case to my line on this thread – and that is that you have already served time as an ATSA before going to the College. Unfortunately it didn’t work out for you, but I would bet my bottom dollar that you didn’t return to the fold with your head stuck up your ar*e and your attitude clouded with Student ATCO College sh*t. I have seen the same thing on a number of occasions, and I do not remember there ever being an attitude issue with the returning ATSA (or ex-cadet, if you prefer). You did your time, earned your chance at the College, and went for it.
This is in complete contrast to the straight-from-the-Uni student entrant. He/she bombs out, gets a posting as an ATSA (the Company’s way of trying to salvage something from the wasted expenditure), and then promptly takes the “I suppose it’s better than nothing (just) – at least until I get another shot at a real job” attitude. They have no desire to be there, other than to earn money, nor do they show any mutual respect to those of the same grade with whom they now have to work with. The “sour grapes” were swallowed in Bournemouth on the day they were shown the door – they are not, and never have been, on the ATSA “menu” at my Unit.
BevBevan –
Over the years, hand on heart, I have not seen the same level of motivation or commitment from the majority of those ex-cadets who have graced the Unit I work at. And, having been in the front line for over 10 years when it came down to training them up to Unit validation level, I feel I am in a good position to be able to comment on this. Yes, they are capable of doing the job – but that is most definitely NOT the same as truly WANTING to do it! I will willingly take a transferring/promoted ATSA or a locally-recruited, aviation-based outsider in preference to an ex-College “under-achiever” every time, and I am certain that the majority of my training colleagues would say likewise. Their drive, motivation and desire to do well is always apparent right from the start. Also, by recruiting existing ATSAs or outsiders, I do not have to put up with the constant whining, escape-planning and “I was SO unlucky to get chopped” hard luck stories that I inevitably get from Day 1 from the ex-cadets. The final insult to all our hard work and effort in getting them validated is to see them constantly knock the job, the staff and the value of our input until they finally sail off into the sunset. If they’re that good, then you can have them all with my blessing – it’ll make my job a whole lot easier.
I look at your post and I notice an instant difference in your case to my line on this thread – and that is that you have already served time as an ATSA before going to the College. Unfortunately it didn’t work out for you, but I would bet my bottom dollar that you didn’t return to the fold with your head stuck up your ar*e and your attitude clouded with Student ATCO College sh*t. I have seen the same thing on a number of occasions, and I do not remember there ever being an attitude issue with the returning ATSA (or ex-cadet, if you prefer). You did your time, earned your chance at the College, and went for it.
This is in complete contrast to the straight-from-the-Uni student entrant. He/she bombs out, gets a posting as an ATSA (the Company’s way of trying to salvage something from the wasted expenditure), and then promptly takes the “I suppose it’s better than nothing (just) – at least until I get another shot at a real job” attitude. They have no desire to be there, other than to earn money, nor do they show any mutual respect to those of the same grade with whom they now have to work with. The “sour grapes” were swallowed in Bournemouth on the day they were shown the door – they are not, and never have been, on the ATSA “menu” at my Unit.
BevBevan –
Over the years, hand on heart, I have not seen the same level of motivation or commitment from the majority of those ex-cadets who have graced the Unit I work at. And, having been in the front line for over 10 years when it came down to training them up to Unit validation level, I feel I am in a good position to be able to comment on this. Yes, they are capable of doing the job – but that is most definitely NOT the same as truly WANTING to do it! I will willingly take a transferring/promoted ATSA or a locally-recruited, aviation-based outsider in preference to an ex-College “under-achiever” every time, and I am certain that the majority of my training colleagues would say likewise. Their drive, motivation and desire to do well is always apparent right from the start. Also, by recruiting existing ATSAs or outsiders, I do not have to put up with the constant whining, escape-planning and “I was SO unlucky to get chopped” hard luck stories that I inevitably get from Day 1 from the ex-cadets. The final insult to all our hard work and effort in getting them validated is to see them constantly knock the job, the staff and the value of our input until they finally sail off into the sunset. If they’re that good, then you can have them all with my blessing – it’ll make my job a whole lot easier.
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Guys, Gals' Guys,Gal's, we are all here to do a job, teamwork is the first prioity. ATCO's/ATSA's who cares ,we are all here to work as a team. No divide, all equal, some earn more than others cos they have a licence and they will be on the chopping block if something happens. Let's just work together and have a good time.What will you be doing in the year 2060?
Well said, ILS. Instead of hijacking Duncan's thread asking for advice and information, why don't the bolshy contributors who want to gripe about their conditions and the alleged attitude of - some - former trainee ATCOs just bog off to another thread?
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2 sheds -
Nobody is hijacking anything - this is an open forum, and all of us are allowed to express our views.
Keep the abusive tone and language out of your messages Connex. If you can't be polite then don't bother making a post. - PPRuNe Radar
Nobody is hijacking anything - this is an open forum, and all of us are allowed to express our views.
Keep the abusive tone and language out of your messages Connex. If you can't be polite then don't bother making a post. - PPRuNe Radar
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I have seen the ATCO/ATSA divide which was 13 years ago. In todays working environment there should never be a divide. As I said earlier we should all work together.
Connex
your attitude is disgusting, as you say this is an open forum you should not tell anyone to f off because of their opinion. In the real world, I don't know what you do, the training system causes some people to fail. Their attitude is unfortunate, but this can be changed. They and we are all equal. Whatever this thread concludes, in my opinion, we should all work together as a team for the safety of the aviation business. You can all moan about the person next to you, but if they do their job correctly then all OK. If they can't then blow them out.
Connex
your attitude is disgusting, as you say this is an open forum you should not tell anyone to f off because of their opinion. In the real world, I don't know what you do, the training system causes some people to fail. Their attitude is unfortunate, but this can be changed. They and we are all equal. Whatever this thread concludes, in my opinion, we should all work together as a team for the safety of the aviation business. You can all moan about the person next to you, but if they do their job correctly then all OK. If they can't then blow them out.
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Try HIAL - Highlands & Islands Airports, as I think was previously suggested.
If employed you will get put through your APC - Approach Procedural Course and posted to one of the following:- Benbecular, Kirkwall, Stornoway or Wick. Sumburgh is ADC only (NATS provide APR) and Inverness is HIAL's Golden Egg and only internal transfers if your lucky!!
They are not the busiest of Units but give you experience and after a couple of years you can leg it back to the real world!!
They are always short of ATCO's, and even if their reply is "We are fully Staffed", they do not live in the real world in management, and will get back to you asking you for an interview.
Good Luck!
If employed you will get put through your APC - Approach Procedural Course and posted to one of the following:- Benbecular, Kirkwall, Stornoway or Wick. Sumburgh is ADC only (NATS provide APR) and Inverness is HIAL's Golden Egg and only internal transfers if your lucky!!
They are not the busiest of Units but give you experience and after a couple of years you can leg it back to the real world!!
They are always short of ATCO's, and even if their reply is "We are fully Staffed", they do not live in the real world in management, and will get back to you asking you for an interview.
Good Luck!
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2 sheds, ILS 119.9 and all other readers out there -
After being in the "sin bin" for a week, I hereby apologise for my rant, for which I was suitably reprimanded by the moderator. I shall try to maintain a better level of integrity in future.
As to the content and direction of the thread itself, however, I will not change my opinion on this matter, and I still consider it to be of sufficient relevance to be debated on pprune. So, 2 sheds, you'll just have to put up with it, I'm afraid.
After being in the "sin bin" for a week, I hereby apologise for my rant, for which I was suitably reprimanded by the moderator. I shall try to maintain a better level of integrity in future.
As to the content and direction of the thread itself, however, I will not change my opinion on this matter, and I still consider it to be of sufficient relevance to be debated on pprune. So, 2 sheds, you'll just have to put up with it, I'm afraid.