Atc Training
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Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Sunny San Juan, Puerto Rico
Atc Training
ATC Instructors and students meet to discuss training/hiring issues at http://atcea.com the website of the Air Traffic Control Education Association.
One of the world's oldest excuses
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Sunny San Juan, Puerto Rico
"and damned-well worth it!"
OK, that was fun - grousing over the membership dues and ignoring the value of the site and the organization sponsoring it. But seriously, look at the Forum on the site's homepage and feel free (yes - it's free!) to enter into dialog with ATC trainees and instructors. Your ideas are valuable - maybe even worth the lifetime ATCEA dues of $200 or the annual dues of $50.
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Kandahar Afghanistan
Sorry guys, whenever someone ask for money for membership in a forum it should raise warning flags.
I hope that everyone noted that Rick Smith claims to had trained hundreds of controllers? I've been a controller for over 18 years and I can count on both hands how many trainees that I've been assigned to train, and Rick claims to had trained hundreds.
Of course if you have money laying around that is burning holes in your pockets go ahead an join.
Mike
I hope that everyone noted that Rick Smith claims to had trained hundreds of controllers? I've been a controller for over 18 years and I can count on both hands how many trainees that I've been assigned to train, and Rick claims to had trained hundreds.
Of course if you have money laying around that is burning holes in your pockets go ahead an join.
Mike
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Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Sunny San Juan, Puerto Rico
"OK - thousands of trainees"
Mike,
I agree that if someone is soliciting memberships to organizations on this site, watch out! If you'll read my post, however, it says:
ATC Instructors and students meet to discuss training/hiring issues at http://atcea.com the website of the Air Traffic Control Education Association.
Granted, there is a "JOIN US" link on the web page, just as there is a "JOIN US" link on the NATCA page (I did join, btw, and served as a FACREP).
As to the "Hundreds of students," I worked as an ATCS for the FAA from 1970 - 1995 including time as an EPDS at ZLA and a Training Specialist at ZSU, then 3 years at an FCT, then 3 years for WCG as an instructor. (Our web page is http://wcg-zsu.4t.com) Yep, over the past 30+ years (including the aftermath of '81 where I did nothing but train for about 5 years) hundreds!
I do appreciate your input and hope you'll participate in the Instructor/Trainee Forum at the ATCEA website.
Rich
I agree that if someone is soliciting memberships to organizations on this site, watch out! If you'll read my post, however, it says:
ATC Instructors and students meet to discuss training/hiring issues at http://atcea.com the website of the Air Traffic Control Education Association.
Granted, there is a "JOIN US" link on the web page, just as there is a "JOIN US" link on the NATCA page (I did join, btw, and served as a FACREP).
As to the "Hundreds of students," I worked as an ATCS for the FAA from 1970 - 1995 including time as an EPDS at ZLA and a Training Specialist at ZSU, then 3 years at an FCT, then 3 years for WCG as an instructor. (Our web page is http://wcg-zsu.4t.com) Yep, over the past 30+ years (including the aftermath of '81 where I did nothing but train for about 5 years) hundreds!
I do appreciate your input and hope you'll participate in the Instructor/Trainee Forum at the ATCEA website.
Rich
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 539
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From: Kandahar Afghanistan
Rich,
I'm in favor of anything that helps improve the quality of prospective trainees that we receive. I'm tired of trying to train individuals who would not had passed the initial screen if it still existed, who think that we owe them, and don't put forth the effort required to certify, who then end up becoming perputual trainees.
At my facility we went from taking an average of 18 months or less to certify, to taking well over 24 months to certify.
Mike
NATCA FWA
I'm in favor of anything that helps improve the quality of prospective trainees that we receive. I'm tired of trying to train individuals who would not had passed the initial screen if it still existed, who think that we owe them, and don't put forth the effort required to certify, who then end up becoming perputual trainees.
At my facility we went from taking an average of 18 months or less to certify, to taking well over 24 months to certify.
Mike
NATCA FWA
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Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Sunny San Juan, Puerto Rico
Trainees!
Mike,
Trainees today, of course, come in all shapes and sizes. Some are truly gifted while others merely think they are. Some struggle valiantly to certify; others look only for someone to blame if they don’t. Do I believe that many trainees today are different than we were all those years ago when we began our careers?
I sure do!
I learned about work from my parents: two people who grew up in the Great Depression. They, and the culture I grew up in, shaped my values and work ethic. My instructors, mostly ex-military, also shared the same values: success will only come with 110% effort, 110% of the time. Did we trainees study after hours and on days off? Of course! Did we expect our instructors would “give us a break” if we showed up unprepared to train? Never!
Many of the “kids” we train today grew up in a completely different environment and, as a result, have completely different values and work ethic. Many feel “entitled” to success in a way we never did. They (I’m referring to the U.S. here – a trainee from Japan, for example, may have a completely different experience) come from a school and university system that preaches “success-by-showing-up.” Many have grown up in a society that places few demands on them and has a low expectation of their level of accomplishment. Some expend more effort looking for someone to blame for their errors than learning the correct way to do things.
Is this a bad thing? I'll let time and the philosophers decide that. What I need to be aware of as an instructor, however, is that many of my trainees see the world quite differently than I do, so I have to adjust my teaching methods accordingly. Today, an instructor also needs to be a leader and a motivator. We have to inspire them to put in the extra hours necessary to learn this job. We have to keep the video-game generation focused. And, we need our trainees to succeed weather we like their view of the world or not.
Sort of a rambling discussion, but I hope it stimulates some comments.
Rich
Trainees today, of course, come in all shapes and sizes. Some are truly gifted while others merely think they are. Some struggle valiantly to certify; others look only for someone to blame if they don’t. Do I believe that many trainees today are different than we were all those years ago when we began our careers?
I sure do!
I learned about work from my parents: two people who grew up in the Great Depression. They, and the culture I grew up in, shaped my values and work ethic. My instructors, mostly ex-military, also shared the same values: success will only come with 110% effort, 110% of the time. Did we trainees study after hours and on days off? Of course! Did we expect our instructors would “give us a break” if we showed up unprepared to train? Never!
Many of the “kids” we train today grew up in a completely different environment and, as a result, have completely different values and work ethic. Many feel “entitled” to success in a way we never did. They (I’m referring to the U.S. here – a trainee from Japan, for example, may have a completely different experience) come from a school and university system that preaches “success-by-showing-up.” Many have grown up in a society that places few demands on them and has a low expectation of their level of accomplishment. Some expend more effort looking for someone to blame for their errors than learning the correct way to do things.
Is this a bad thing? I'll let time and the philosophers decide that. What I need to be aware of as an instructor, however, is that many of my trainees see the world quite differently than I do, so I have to adjust my teaching methods accordingly. Today, an instructor also needs to be a leader and a motivator. We have to inspire them to put in the extra hours necessary to learn this job. We have to keep the video-game generation focused. And, we need our trainees to succeed weather we like their view of the world or not.
Sort of a rambling discussion, but I hope it stimulates some comments.
Rich
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Sunny San Juan, Puerto Rico
Aviation Interest?
Jerricho,
"Do you require an interest in aviation to be an Air Traffic Controller?"
My answer: No.
I have known excellent controllers who know absolutly nothing about aviation (other than what's necessary to control traffic). They could care less about planes - "don't know and don't wanna know." This is particularly true in the Enroute environment, but I've even seen it in the Tower. An interest in aviation could even conceivably be a dissadvantage; I'm thinking of controllers who, because of their aviation backgrounds, try to "get into the cockpit" and fly the airplane rather than control sector traffic.
That being said, as a pilot and a person who grew up hanging out at the airport, I think I have just a bit more love for this job than someone who's just playing a well-paying video game for a living.
Rich
"Do you require an interest in aviation to be an Air Traffic Controller?"
My answer: No.
I have known excellent controllers who know absolutly nothing about aviation (other than what's necessary to control traffic). They could care less about planes - "don't know and don't wanna know." This is particularly true in the Enroute environment, but I've even seen it in the Tower. An interest in aviation could even conceivably be a dissadvantage; I'm thinking of controllers who, because of their aviation backgrounds, try to "get into the cockpit" and fly the airplane rather than control sector traffic.
That being said, as a pilot and a person who grew up hanging out at the airport, I think I have just a bit more love for this job than someone who's just playing a well-paying video game for a living.
Rich
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 4,432
Likes: 33
From: LHR/EGLL
Hey Jer,
If you can remember back to highfield park on our induction course, I reckon only a handful of us had a real interest in aviation. I know it helped me, as I didn't view the college as work, and I still don't view what I do now as work.
But then of course you learn so much more when you instruct an ab-initio trainee for the first time and they ask you how you tell the difference between an A320 and a 737. I don't know, they're just different! I don't count the overwing emergency exits or look at the angle at which the tail tapers off!
If you can remember back to highfield park on our induction course, I reckon only a handful of us had a real interest in aviation. I know it helped me, as I didn't view the college as work, and I still don't view what I do now as work.
But then of course you learn so much more when you instruct an ab-initio trainee for the first time and they ask you how you tell the difference between an A320 and a 737. I don't know, they're just different! I don't count the overwing emergency exits or look at the angle at which the tail tapers off!
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Planet Earth
Do you need an interest in aviation..........?
Guess it really depends on how you approach the job. If you just want to point blips around a super PC game and then go home to whatever else you do that's fine.
However I would suggest that to take the job professionally the more willing you are to see and accept the "big picture" (apologies for management speak) then the more you will be able to get out of (and put into) the profession?
Guess it really depends on how you approach the job. If you just want to point blips around a super PC game and then go home to whatever else you do that's fine.
However I would suggest that to take the job professionally the more willing you are to see and accept the "big picture" (apologies for management speak) then the more you will be able to get out of (and put into) the profession?
Last edited by PPIMan; 31st December 2003 at 22:16.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 892
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From: southampton,hampshire,england
Don't Know?
Oh Dear......we've hit rock bottom. If controllers want to be considered professionals do we not have a duty to learn about different aircraft and their characteristics and requirements? I'm not suggesting that everybody runs out to buy an anorak but surely we should at least be "aware" of the industry of which we are a part.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 4,432
Likes: 33
From: LHR/EGLL
anorak......plane-spotters (aviation enthusiasts)
From the waterproof coat that is (thought to be...) typically worn by those people.
In the UK it's used often to designate any group or person that is in any way 'geeky' or 'nerdy'
Dictionary mode off......
From the waterproof coat that is (thought to be...) typically worn by those people.
In the UK it's used often to designate any group or person that is in any way 'geeky' or 'nerdy'
Dictionary mode off......
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 539
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From: Kandahar Afghanistan
Yes there are controllers that have absolutely no interest in aviation outside of controlling. Gaining general knowledge of aircraft and their characteristics only serves to help one become a better controller, and to be in a better position to assist a pilot in distress.
Mike R
NATCA FWA
Mike R
NATCA FWA
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
I think that even the folks who don't care that much about aviation still learn about the aircraft that they are working. Do they know the VREF speeds or slat and flap speeds? No, of course not, but they do know that the RJ's for the most part don't climb for squat ( except the CRJ7), the A340 is a dog, and then just about nothing will fall out of the sky like an old B727. Yeah, I know that it is against the rules to go flaps 40 and still have speed breaks out, but I have seen it. Talk about a BRICK!
We learn what we need to know about the aircraft to separate them, not always the finer points of what makes a pilots life easier... I like a lot of the folks who come to this forum are probably an exception to that and love aviation ( probably about 45% of us ). But there are more and more who this is indeed just a job that is fun and pays well... Fly in my off time or go learn more about how an FMS works, ya got to be kidding <G>.
But then, how many pilots know much about ATC (really know) and then spend the time to go to a unit to learn something. I think that we have them out numbered percentage wise...
regards
Scott
We learn what we need to know about the aircraft to separate them, not always the finer points of what makes a pilots life easier... I like a lot of the folks who come to this forum are probably an exception to that and love aviation ( probably about 45% of us ). But there are more and more who this is indeed just a job that is fun and pays well... Fly in my off time or go learn more about how an FMS works, ya got to be kidding <G>.
But then, how many pilots know much about ATC (really know) and then spend the time to go to a unit to learn something. I think that we have them out numbered percentage wise...
regards
Scott
Ohcirrej
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: This is the internet FFS.........
Thanks for the interesting discussion so far guys.
(Gonze - remember Highfield? Yeah right!
)
Personally, I think it helps if a trainee has a healthy interest in aviation, but agree it isn't essential. Of course there are going to be facets of the job that a bit more knowledge about these things is going to help (eg in emergancy situations)
(Gonze - remember Highfield? Yeah right!
)Personally, I think it helps if a trainee has a healthy interest in aviation, but agree it isn't essential. Of course there are going to be facets of the job that a bit more knowledge about these things is going to help (eg in emergancy situations)
Joined: Aug 2003
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From: North of Antarctica
Interest in Aviation
Absolutely love the job and have been doing it for 14 years (wouldn't do anything else) but have to admit that I do not have a great interest in aviation; certainly not interested in airshows or listening in on the airwaves (apart from work). Don't think this is too abnormal and have met a few others like me!!!
