NATS Pay/WP
Ohcirrej
Join Date: Feb 2003
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DC10, you're preaching to the choir about ATCOs as management. Certain people do make good managers, and others don't. IMHO, management positions do require "specialist" knowledge in just that, management. You may be a sh!t hot controller, but allocating resources and managing people are totally different skills. But as is highlighted when a VN is published for a position, a knowledge of ATC procedures and systems is often required.
However, to throw you argument into the ring isn't the issue. Staffing, rostering, budgets, resource allocation and all that stuff grouped into the "management box" is pretty much standardised. The percentage increase in traffic movements and complexity of ATC is something else.
However, to throw you argument into the ring isn't the issue. Staffing, rostering, budgets, resource allocation and all that stuff grouped into the "management box" is pretty much standardised. The percentage increase in traffic movements and complexity of ATC is something else.
Join Date: Feb 2002
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Eye in the Sky
I am starting to sound like an evangelist, but our management here have already explained to us about the last couple of pay awards, especially the last one.
When the great and the good said they had no more dosh, and then lo and behold, more appeared, they borrowed it from the banks. Total cost to the company of £50 million that hadn't been budgeted for, over the 5 year cost period. That is a heavy deficit in the coffers that we could probably do without. What they neglected to do was tell us at the time that this is what they were doing, and so left us all believing that they were either
a] incompetent at maths or
b] lying to us when they said we were broke.
So they borrowed the cash, and we got our last 2 year deal, eventually. Borrowing money for the wages is a BAD thing. Ask any accountant. Good simile is if you try putting the family holiday on your mortgage every year - eventually you get a nice suntan, but your negative equity guts you.
If we all push hard, we could probably get the top-brass to borrow again, which would leave the company even less stable.
Weak management = we all lose.
Strong management [dreaming now
] = we don't gain as much.
I'm all for a bit of robust negotiation, 'cos I'm basically a greedy sod. There is IMHO a limit to how hard we should push our masters into the mud, in punishment for something that was thrust upon them as much as it was thrust upon us.
So to return to the thread, WP is a good thing to negotiate over. Fair pay for fair work etc etc. Yes some ATSAs do sit around for some of the time, until the electronic thingie goes tech, then they work their collective a
s off to keep it all together. Some ATCOs never see the light of radar, and sit behind desks pushing paper and getting operational money for it. It's called life, and if one group starts to demand more, then some other group will get less. If the more is a big more, then the less will hurt someone, and that is not a good thing.
DWB
I am starting to sound like an evangelist, but our management here have already explained to us about the last couple of pay awards, especially the last one.
When the great and the good said they had no more dosh, and then lo and behold, more appeared, they borrowed it from the banks. Total cost to the company of £50 million that hadn't been budgeted for, over the 5 year cost period. That is a heavy deficit in the coffers that we could probably do without. What they neglected to do was tell us at the time that this is what they were doing, and so left us all believing that they were either
a] incompetent at maths or
b] lying to us when they said we were broke.
So they borrowed the cash, and we got our last 2 year deal, eventually. Borrowing money for the wages is a BAD thing. Ask any accountant. Good simile is if you try putting the family holiday on your mortgage every year - eventually you get a nice suntan, but your negative equity guts you.
If we all push hard, we could probably get the top-brass to borrow again, which would leave the company even less stable.
Weak management = we all lose.
Strong management [dreaming now
] = we don't gain as much.I'm all for a bit of robust negotiation, 'cos I'm basically a greedy sod. There is IMHO a limit to how hard we should push our masters into the mud, in punishment for something that was thrust upon them as much as it was thrust upon us.
So to return to the thread, WP is a good thing to negotiate over. Fair pay for fair work etc etc. Yes some ATSAs do sit around for some of the time, until the electronic thingie goes tech, then they work their collective a
s off to keep it all together. Some ATCOs never see the light of radar, and sit behind desks pushing paper and getting operational money for it. It's called life, and if one group starts to demand more, then some other group will get less. If the more is a big more, then the less will hurt someone, and that is not a good thing.DWB
chomp
Join Date: Sep 2000
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PAY
Folks
Someone enlighten me, AVA agreement runs out at the end of Dec:03, certainly Lacc + CC & probably to a lesser degree SCACC & the airfields have required these shifts, not only just to make the place work, but to allow simulation etc.
Does anyone else see the possibility of a " big stick" with which to approach management?????????
or will we be keeping our " powder dry" yet again.
Someone enlighten me, AVA agreement runs out at the end of Dec:03, certainly Lacc + CC & probably to a lesser degree SCACC & the airfields have required these shifts, not only just to make the place work, but to allow simulation etc.
Does anyone else see the possibility of a " big stick" with which to approach management?????????
or will we be keeping our " powder dry" yet again.
Join Date: Jun 2000
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It's certainly available at PH (on an ad-hoc basis, in my three-and-a-half years here I think I've been offered it three times) but since the AAVA agreement came in very few people have been prepared to do any (for obvious reasons - in my case it amounts to about £80 per shift, after Gordon Brown's had his paws in it!).
There is some simmering resentment about the way that the supposedly "national" agreement was implemented; but then we're nowhere near as short of staff as the southern units are.
I wonder why that is?
There is some simmering resentment about the way that the supposedly "national" agreement was implemented; but then we're nowhere near as short of staff as the southern units are.
I wonder why that is?
Join Date: Aug 2001
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AVAAs
"Does anyone else see the possibility of a " big stick" with which to approach management?????????"
It was a big stick with which to approach management after the last pay deal but the rank and file chose to take the money instead.
"Does anyone else see the possibility of a " big stick" with which to approach management?????????"
It was a big stick with which to approach management after the last pay deal but the rank and file chose to take the money instead.
Join Date: Dec 1999
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we're nowhere near as short of staff as the southern units are. I wonder why that is?
You can understand why management would be unwilling to set up an AAVA structure if ATCOs are prepared to do standard overtime already
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Can't use the "big stick" of AAVAs too much though in terms of the 2004 pay rise though because the other negotiating groups will jump straight on the band-waggon and demand the same basic rise-and not have to do anything for it.
Unfortunate but true.
And yes it was a national deal but it does say in the agreement quite clearly that it is at management discretion. However whilst there are people prepared to do extra hours at staff handbook rates then the pressure will never be put on the local management to anything other than to go for the cheapest option.
Unfortunate but true.
And yes it was a national deal but it does say in the agreement quite clearly that it is at management discretion. However whilst there are people prepared to do extra hours at staff handbook rates then the pressure will never be put on the local management to anything other than to go for the cheapest option.
Join Date: Jan 2001
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AAVAs are not generally used at Airports but staff working on days off on non-operational guff to try and keep managements backs covered most certainly is used. But the best bit is when because of all the days in lieu still owed people can't take their leave and so end up carrying 30 or 40 days over and then management complain about that!! You really can't make it up. They are complete idiots so why do we have to take a less than inflation pay rise (a negative pay rise?) to keep them above water. It's their fault they try and run things with insufficient support operationally but if you want a paper clip there are 15 people to see and meetings to be had before you get it.
I feel much better with that off my chest
I feel much better with that off my chest
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Money money money... give me money! More money!
Who's getting what? I want it too... but more of it!!
It's Soooooooooooooooo unfair!!
Nobody appreciates me, nobody loves me... I want to be loved...
But screw you all... give me more MONEY!!!!
Who's getting what? I want it too... but more of it!!
It's Soooooooooooooooo unfair!!
Nobody appreciates me, nobody loves me... I want to be loved...
But screw you all... give me more MONEY!!!!
