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DVDR,
I was told by a colleague who works at Scottish that part of the problem was that the guys on high level do too many positions and don't get on DCS often enough and by their own admission find it difficult to keep up with the procedures! Perhaps it is time to drop a few or is it because you don't want to have more people on high level for night shifts as they will have fewer validations? I know at Swanwick a lot of people have dropped extra sectors because they feel they don't get enough time on them and we have to do double nights up anyway so that isn't an issue.
Also? from personal experience, a lot of the a/c are not being transferred well before LAKEY when they don't make their level!
I do agree as said before that 1261's are not always the best way forward but I feel that this was a last resort on safety grounds, but they should at least have told whoever was involved they were filing and it is unprofessional if they didn't justify it?
1261, you picked the name
I was told by a colleague who works at Scottish that part of the problem was that the guys on high level do too many positions and don't get on DCS often enough and by their own admission find it difficult to keep up with the procedures! Perhaps it is time to drop a few or is it because you don't want to have more people on high level for night shifts as they will have fewer validations? I know at Swanwick a lot of people have dropped extra sectors because they feel they don't get enough time on them and we have to do double nights up anyway so that isn't an issue.
Also? from personal experience, a lot of the a/c are not being transferred well before LAKEY when they don't make their level!
I do agree as said before that 1261's are not always the best way forward but I feel that this was a last resort on safety grounds, but they should at least have told whoever was involved they were filing and it is unprofessional if they didn't justify it?
1261, you picked the name
Last edited by AREA52; 19th Feb 2004 at 00:00.
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Just back off leave and picked up my ballot form. Thought we were meant to have ONE umarked ballot form and TWO envelopes, the outer of which was disgarded after the Prospect number had been checked? My pack has a ballot form with a serial number stamped on it..........have we moved from secret ballots and (if so) were we informed of it?
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I think that GK has made a fair point.
1. Why are the ballot papers not going to the electoral reform society?
2. Why are there not 2 envelopes for secrecy?
3. Who will count the votes, Prospect or an independant third party?
At the end of the day Prospect have a vested interest in getting this through, they've spent long enough trying to persuade us that this joke is a good deal, and as such cease to be impartial on this matter.
Can we as members insist that the votes be counted by an independant 3rd party? if this is not already the case?
1. Why are the ballot papers not going to the electoral reform society?
2. Why are there not 2 envelopes for secrecy?
3. Who will count the votes, Prospect or an independant third party?
At the end of the day Prospect have a vested interest in getting this through, they've spent long enough trying to persuade us that this joke is a good deal, and as such cease to be impartial on this matter.
Can we as members insist that the votes be counted by an independant 3rd party? if this is not already the case?
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AREA 52
'a disgruntled unit' - doesnt narrow it down very much does it?
Seriously......I'm simply asking for info on what Branch rules on referenda are and when they changed from the transparently secret method we've employed in the past.
'a disgruntled unit' - doesnt narrow it down very much does it?
Seriously......I'm simply asking for info on what Branch rules on referenda are and when they changed from the transparently secret method we've employed in the past.
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GK
It narrows it down to less than 50%
I was in all seriousness only joking, as I said before everyone has a different view, but I think if this deal doesn't go through, we will be cutting of our nose to spite our face in many respects!
Can't answer the ballot paper question though, but I'm sure it will have been done properly and will be counted independently, because if there is ever any need for industrial action, process has got to be spot on.
Regards
AREA52
It narrows it down to less than 50%
I was in all seriousness only joking, as I said before everyone has a different view, but I think if this deal doesn't go through, we will be cutting of our nose to spite our face in many respects!
Can't answer the ballot paper question though, but I'm sure it will have been done properly and will be counted independently, because if there is ever any need for industrial action, process has got to be spot on.
Regards
AREA52
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area
thanks again for the input
as you said yesterday , i also hope they have done things right with the ballot , but
we have put the double envelope thing to them , plus the fact that the ballot was not run for at least 30 days and lastley that prospect are counting such a contentious ballot by themselves (should be electoral reform bods)
as i have said before i don't agree with a lot of this (basic rise i may back down on)
but we have to ask questions of the system if the union seem to have gone outwith branch policy agian
the reply has not come and this has been a week now
thanks again for the input
as you said yesterday , i also hope they have done things right with the ballot , but
we have put the double envelope thing to them , plus the fact that the ballot was not run for at least 30 days and lastley that prospect are counting such a contentious ballot by themselves (should be electoral reform bods)
as i have said before i don't agree with a lot of this (basic rise i may back down on)
but we have to ask questions of the system if the union seem to have gone outwith branch policy agian
the reply has not come and this has been a week now
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Only looked at about 30% of the posts but seem to have got the jist!!
My main concern is that there is no alternative being offered to the unit grading formula. Although a little flawed surely what is being offered is better than what we have at the moment!! (How does a unit get promoted from ATCO 3 to ATCO 2 in the current structure?) It is a base to work on, and remember there is still more to come in Part 2.
I think that more energy should be put in to getting the right reward for all those moving to Prestwick than the backstabbing going on within this topic. Division is exactly what management want; it saves them money!!
My main concern is that there is no alternative being offered to the unit grading formula. Although a little flawed surely what is being offered is better than what we have at the moment!! (How does a unit get promoted from ATCO 3 to ATCO 2 in the current structure?) It is a base to work on, and remember there is still more to come in Part 2.
I think that more energy should be put in to getting the right reward for all those moving to Prestwick than the backstabbing going on within this topic. Division is exactly what management want; it saves them money!!
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Chip,
I think you'll find that the move to Prestwick saves the company a whole load more money than a move to Swanwick
I think that you'll find that a move from what has been described by the union as a divisive Atco 1, 2, 3 structure to an ATCO 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 structure (even if we are described as "a Heathrow ATCO or a Birmingham ATCO) isn't exactly right.
I have a feeling in my bones that this isn't going to get voted through after all, our union has negotiated a deal which is in direct contravention of union policy, a deal which makes us already undervalued ATCO's feel evenm more worthless by having it rammed down our throats by the people who are suposed to represent our interests that we essentially do not work as hard as other units, or that large amounts of the work that we do doesn't count because it can't be measured.
I hope that this doesn't go through.
If and when it doesn't I will be interested to see just how many of the BEC actually do resign - my guess - despite all the harpings on this thread about the fact that they will have to - NONE
WHY?? Because they have their own little mafia, and despite all the good things they purport to do for us as union members it is just another little club with members who want to feather their own nests, why else would they support this pile of cr@p and try and get the rest of us to back them up
I think you'll find that the move to Prestwick saves the company a whole load more money than a move to Swanwick
I think that you'll find that a move from what has been described by the union as a divisive Atco 1, 2, 3 structure to an ATCO 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 structure (even if we are described as "a Heathrow ATCO or a Birmingham ATCO) isn't exactly right.
I have a feeling in my bones that this isn't going to get voted through after all, our union has negotiated a deal which is in direct contravention of union policy, a deal which makes us already undervalued ATCO's feel evenm more worthless by having it rammed down our throats by the people who are suposed to represent our interests that we essentially do not work as hard as other units, or that large amounts of the work that we do doesn't count because it can't be measured.
I hope that this doesn't go through.
If and when it doesn't I will be interested to see just how many of the BEC actually do resign - my guess - despite all the harpings on this thread about the fact that they will have to - NONE
WHY?? Because they have their own little mafia, and despite all the good things they purport to do for us as union members it is just another little club with members who want to feather their own nests, why else would they support this pile of cr@p and try and get the rest of us to back them up
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caniplaywithmadness
I've stayed out of this so far but utter rubbish like this really p*ss*s me off.
Some of the guys that were involved in the Prospect side of these negotiations I consider myself lucky enough to count as friends. The amount of their own time that they put into Prospect work on our behalf is immense, is essentially unrewarded and is not something I think I could do myself, though I have been a watch rep in the past.
It's one thing commenting on the deal itself, but what you write above is sheer fantasy and does nothing to further the debate. If this thread can be called a debate.
Whether or not I agree with the deal on offer, I appreciate the amount of time and effort that has thus far been put in by the Prospect reps involved and personally I hope the ones I know stay involved with the union whichever way the vote goes. We, as a union, can ill afford to lose their experience IMHO.
This thread is an embarrasment.
WF.
WHY?? Because they have their own little mafia, and despite all the good things they purport to do for us as union members it is just another little club with members who want to feather their own nests, why else would they support this pile of cr@p and try and get the rest of us to back them up
Some of the guys that were involved in the Prospect side of these negotiations I consider myself lucky enough to count as friends. The amount of their own time that they put into Prospect work on our behalf is immense, is essentially unrewarded and is not something I think I could do myself, though I have been a watch rep in the past.
It's one thing commenting on the deal itself, but what you write above is sheer fantasy and does nothing to further the debate. If this thread can be called a debate.
Whether or not I agree with the deal on offer, I appreciate the amount of time and effort that has thus far been put in by the Prospect reps involved and personally I hope the ones I know stay involved with the union whichever way the vote goes. We, as a union, can ill afford to lose their experience IMHO.
This thread is an embarrasment.
WF.
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caniplaywithmadness That last posting was total and utter ****e.
Many individuals have spent more years that you will ever know in trying to further the interests of people like you who spout such crap in public.
I do not agree with the grading results, I voted against the recommendation for the first time in my life but I totally support the BEC as individuals.
Many individuals have spent more years that you will ever know in trying to further the interests of people like you who spout such crap in public.
I do not agree with the grading results, I voted against the recommendation for the first time in my life but I totally support the BEC as individuals.
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I haven't read all the posts but it seems a great shame that LACC controllers seem to getting a lot of abuse when many of us do not even want this deal.
The deal is dependant on us reducing to 3 people per sector group on nights which means that we will have to work both nights all night 2 hours on 1 hour off. This means that there will be some very tired people working busy traffic and unable to split a sector (or be relieved in the event of an emergency or incident) until 5.30am when the spinner arrives. Sectors do sometimes need splitting before this and since all the traffic is oceanic it cannot be flowed. In view of the swiss control crash - is reducing cover to this level safe?
Also the only way to get a break long enough to get any sleep is to work 4 hours on 2 off if we get the srg dispensation. Will they provide a bucket for when we need the loo as well??!!
5.30am starts are also a big problem for many people particularly with children or travelling long distances.
A lot of people I have spoken to would rather have a smaller pay rise and keep the working practices the same. What's the point of more money if you're too tired to spend it?
It would be interesting to know what comprimises other units have to make for the pay rise.
The deal is dependant on us reducing to 3 people per sector group on nights which means that we will have to work both nights all night 2 hours on 1 hour off. This means that there will be some very tired people working busy traffic and unable to split a sector (or be relieved in the event of an emergency or incident) until 5.30am when the spinner arrives. Sectors do sometimes need splitting before this and since all the traffic is oceanic it cannot be flowed. In view of the swiss control crash - is reducing cover to this level safe?
Also the only way to get a break long enough to get any sleep is to work 4 hours on 2 off if we get the srg dispensation. Will they provide a bucket for when we need the loo as well??!!
5.30am starts are also a big problem for many people particularly with children or travelling long distances.
A lot of people I have spoken to would rather have a smaller pay rise and keep the working practices the same. What's the point of more money if you're too tired to spend it?
It would be interesting to know what comprimises other units have to make for the pay rise.
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Findo,
At least we can agree on something, CIPWM was talking "utter ****e" to quote your post as far as the BEC and local reps are concerned! The typically Scottish "it does exactly what it says on the tin" approach made me laugh also!
I would like to see what exactly they have done to further the ATCO cause in the past!
Let's just hope everyone is happy in the longer term when things settle down.
At least we can agree on something, CIPWM was talking "utter ****e" to quote your post as far as the BEC and local reps are concerned! The typically Scottish "it does exactly what it says on the tin" approach made me laugh also!
I would like to see what exactly they have done to further the ATCO cause in the past!
Let's just hope everyone is happy in the longer term when things settle down.
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Findo,
I've seen no evidence of them trying to further the interests of people like me - either now, or in previous negotiations when the airports got shafted with WP changes and got nothing for it.
WF,
I have nothing against the BEC as people, I don't know them, my experience of them to date has been limited to PPP and the current pay offer. I have no doubt that they work hard, giving up their own time to do the job that they do, however as far as this deal is concerned, I stand by every word that I have posted here. Will they stand by their every word at the unit briefings?
Area 52,
At no time have I ever criticised local reps, they're the ones at the coal face dealing with the daily complaints of the membership and trying to get answers from the BEC, who frankly don't appear to have the answers!
I've seen no evidence of them trying to further the interests of people like me - either now, or in previous negotiations when the airports got shafted with WP changes and got nothing for it.
WF,
I have nothing against the BEC as people, I don't know them, my experience of them to date has been limited to PPP and the current pay offer. I have no doubt that they work hard, giving up their own time to do the job that they do, however as far as this deal is concerned, I stand by every word that I have posted here. Will they stand by their every word at the unit briefings?
Area 52,
At no time have I ever criticised local reps, they're the ones at the coal face dealing with the daily complaints of the membership and trying to get answers from the BEC, who frankly don't appear to have the answers!
Last edited by caniplaywithmadness; 26th Feb 2004 at 01:53.
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Soted,
the night shifts you describe are the night shifts we actually work at the airfields and have done so for a very long time.
Yes they are tiring, yes they take time to recover from .
What concerns me about 0530 starts is that the staff working them will not have had any rest, we all know how hard it is to sleep before morning shifts.
Sadly the beancounters are taking over.
the night shifts you describe are the night shifts we actually work at the airfields and have done so for a very long time.
Yes they are tiring, yes they take time to recover from .
What concerns me about 0530 starts is that the staff working them will not have had any rest, we all know how hard it is to sleep before morning shifts.
Sadly the beancounters are taking over.
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Findo. I can remember when you were on the BEC the BA check - in staff used to think you were a crew member you were on the Shuttle so often. I can understand why you are annoyed. Just say what you think and don't hold back this time !!! 
Canniplay you need some education and this is probably not the place to do it. If you think you have any of the terms and conditions your currently enjoy by the grace of your managers you are sadly mistaken. Same goes for Area 52. They may be different at different units and seniority but they have all been hard fought over to get and to retain them. Ask any of the folks who didn't complete training at LATCC and got pushed elsewhere under conditions that managment thought fit. It was only the BEC who took management to task and got them their entitlement on salary and allowances. Plus everything else which constitues normal negotiations and business 7 days a week 52 weeks a year.
If some of you guys think your jobs are difficult and local reps have a burden then multiply that by 10 and you have some idea of the workload of an average BEC member. They do not need your personal thanks but they certainly do not need your personal suggestions that they are somehow feathering their own nests or building their careers by doing this. There are lots of easier ways of doing both
Canniplay you need some education and this is probably not the place to do it. If you think you have any of the terms and conditions your currently enjoy by the grace of your managers you are sadly mistaken. Same goes for Area 52. They may be different at different units and seniority but they have all been hard fought over to get and to retain them. Ask any of the folks who didn't complete training at LATCC and got pushed elsewhere under conditions that managment thought fit. It was only the BEC who took management to task and got them their entitlement on salary and allowances. Plus everything else which constitues normal negotiations and business 7 days a week 52 weeks a year.
If some of you guys think your jobs are difficult and local reps have a burden then multiply that by 10 and you have some idea of the workload of an average BEC member. They do not need your personal thanks but they certainly do not need your personal suggestions that they are somehow feathering their own nests or building their careers by doing this. There are lots of easier ways of doing both
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CIPWM,
You say that you are not criticising local reps, but most if not all of the BEC reps are also local section reps so really you are?
2six4
Perhaps you should read my last post again as I was actually defending the union reps role either at local or BEC level, your previous comment "same goes for AREA52" left me somewhat confused?
AREA 52
You say that you are not criticising local reps, but most if not all of the BEC reps are also local section reps so really you are?
2six4
Perhaps you should read my last post again as I was actually defending the union reps role either at local or BEC level, your previous comment "same goes for AREA52" left me somewhat confused?
AREA 52