NATS Pay/WP
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Nats' support costs are among the highest in Europe. Nat's atco costs are not. I'm sorry but there are some very highly paid people in Nats who have no additional responsibility as traffic increases and who do not have additional risk to their licence. Why do they deserve the same pay rise?
Pay meeting was today. Monday 24 Nov. 2 year deal? can anyone shed any more light?
Pay meeting was today. Monday 24 Nov. 2 year deal? can anyone shed any more light?
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2 year deal?
You can bet your depleted pension that they want a 2-year deal. Every financial pointer indicates a rising trend in interest rates and inflation always flies in tight formation with it. I'd say they are desperate for a 2-year deal at to-day's rates rather than next year's.
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Bobblehat –
Quote: “Nats' support costs are among the highest in Europe. Nat's atco costs are not. I'm sorry but there are some very highly paid people in Nats who have no additional responsibility as traffic increases and who do not have additional risk to their licence. Why do they deserve the same pay rise?”
What we are talking about here is a pay rise for all NATS ATC staff - not just the ATCOs. A 3% increase on my salary is a lot less in my pocket than 3% in yours – but I am not complaining about that. In fact I accept it! I have chosen to be an ATSA, and the job, and the salary, suits me fine. What I do not accept is the continual ATCO “We want more” gripe, which is based on the (utterly selfish) principle of ATCOs always receiving more of everything/anything than everybody else. WHY? You already receive a higher level of salary than just about everybody else, and you receive it as acknowledgement/reward for the “additional responsibility” you are always prattling on about. The way you bloody lot go on, you’d think that its purely ATCOs who "do the job" for NATS, and nobody else matters! Your bobblehat has obviously slipped over your eyes, pal, – pull it up and take a good look around you. The cost of living is the same for us all – and it goes up the same for us all too.
Irrespective of what each support staff member is paid, contributes to the job, has/doesn’t have responsibility for, or whatever, the fact remains that at the present time ATCOs cannot provide the ATC service without the support staff. If there is a limited amount of money in the NATS kitty to be used for raising salaries, then it is only fair that ALL participating staff receive at least an equal percentage pay rise, even if this doesn’t equate to an equal amount of cash in the pocket. If you think you're worth more, that’s fine – just don’t expect to receive it at the ultimate expense of the support staff salaries. We have as much entitlement to a fair pay award as you, and there's only so much to go around.
The inference from your statement is that other European ATCOs receive higher pay than UK ATCOs. I do not know if this is correct, but if it is, then I suggest you push off to EU-pastures anew, and take all your other ATCO money-grabbing “gripers” with you. You won’t be missed.
Quote: “Nats' support costs are among the highest in Europe. Nat's atco costs are not. I'm sorry but there are some very highly paid people in Nats who have no additional responsibility as traffic increases and who do not have additional risk to their licence. Why do they deserve the same pay rise?”
What we are talking about here is a pay rise for all NATS ATC staff - not just the ATCOs. A 3% increase on my salary is a lot less in my pocket than 3% in yours – but I am not complaining about that. In fact I accept it! I have chosen to be an ATSA, and the job, and the salary, suits me fine. What I do not accept is the continual ATCO “We want more” gripe, which is based on the (utterly selfish) principle of ATCOs always receiving more of everything/anything than everybody else. WHY? You already receive a higher level of salary than just about everybody else, and you receive it as acknowledgement/reward for the “additional responsibility” you are always prattling on about. The way you bloody lot go on, you’d think that its purely ATCOs who "do the job" for NATS, and nobody else matters! Your bobblehat has obviously slipped over your eyes, pal, – pull it up and take a good look around you. The cost of living is the same for us all – and it goes up the same for us all too.
Irrespective of what each support staff member is paid, contributes to the job, has/doesn’t have responsibility for, or whatever, the fact remains that at the present time ATCOs cannot provide the ATC service without the support staff. If there is a limited amount of money in the NATS kitty to be used for raising salaries, then it is only fair that ALL participating staff receive at least an equal percentage pay rise, even if this doesn’t equate to an equal amount of cash in the pocket. If you think you're worth more, that’s fine – just don’t expect to receive it at the ultimate expense of the support staff salaries. We have as much entitlement to a fair pay award as you, and there's only so much to go around.
The inference from your statement is that other European ATCOs receive higher pay than UK ATCOs. I do not know if this is correct, but if it is, then I suggest you push off to EU-pastures anew, and take all your other ATCO money-grabbing “gripers” with you. You won’t be missed.
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..........must resist.......nnnnnnnnnngggghhhhhh........resist............. ..resist...........................................must not post reply............nnnnnnnnggggghhhhhh........................ ...
Ohcirrej
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Unlike you Gonze, I just can't resist.
It's good to see you're still well balanced Connex. A chip on both shoulders. Sure we won't be missed. And just remind me the requirements to provide an Air Traffic Service......oh yeah, a licence.
P.S. I'm sure you posted here once you didn't give a toss.
and take all your other ATCO money-grabbing “gripers” with you. You won’t be missed.
P.S. I'm sure you posted here once you didn't give a toss.
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I thought that may provoke a interesting response.
Every non atco employee at Nats is purely a member of support staff. From the switchboard to Richard Everett. That's not to say that some are not harder working, more experienced etc than others.
The point is that Nats is an air traffic control provider. Whether you like it or not (most) atco's are highly skilled and trained individuals who have taken years to train for the job and get lumped in with the support staff at pay time. The atco is the fulcrum about which the entire comapny pivots. That is a fact.
You can argue all you want about the skills required to be an atsa or other support staff but at the end of the day it is ALWAYS the atco that carries the can on the sector.
All that and more are fair reasons why the atco should not be subject to the same pay award as the blip driver etc
Perhaps PCS should negotiate seperately for operational support staff? Maybe that will calm what I expect to be another interesting reaction.
Every non atco employee at Nats is purely a member of support staff. From the switchboard to Richard Everett. That's not to say that some are not harder working, more experienced etc than others.
The point is that Nats is an air traffic control provider. Whether you like it or not (most) atco's are highly skilled and trained individuals who have taken years to train for the job and get lumped in with the support staff at pay time. The atco is the fulcrum about which the entire comapny pivots. That is a fact.
You can argue all you want about the skills required to be an atsa or other support staff but at the end of the day it is ALWAYS the atco that carries the can on the sector.
All that and more are fair reasons why the atco should not be subject to the same pay award as the blip driver etc
Perhaps PCS should negotiate seperately for operational support staff? Maybe that will calm what I expect to be another interesting reaction.
Manchesters Most Wanted PPRuNer
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I think on this occasion PCS is negotiating separately from PROSPECT - at least in the most part?
Yes, it is always the ATCO that "carries the can" on the sector but as technology stands at the moment ATC is still very very much a team game; I truly believe that. And whilst those members of the support staff may not have undergone such intensive training as those at the "sharp end" I think everyone would agree that the job would be much much more difficult nay impossible without them (as it stands today)?
Sticking up for the ATSAs here especially - there are many of my colleagues who readily admit that on many occasions they've been "saved" or very very appropriately assisted by an on-the-ball ATSA.
I find this whole ATCOs vs ATSAs / Support Staff thing that, yes does seem to appear to be a Southern thing in the main part (it certainly doesn't go on at my unit), a massive waste of time and a little childish to be honest. As well as detrimental to us as a workforce as a whole, especially at pay deal time. Divide and rule and all that. We're all supposed to be colleagues supporting each other and working towards a common goal (excuse the semi-management speak) - that can't be easy for both sides when each thinks they are the more valuable / righteous / worthy etc etc etc
In short yes, ATCOs are undoubtedly the most valuable asset any ATS provider. But, at the moment, take the ATSAs, TELS and the majority of the other support bods out of the equation or make them in some way unworthy, unequal or downtrodden - and licences and all that hard training wouldn't matter a great deal
Until that is, reliable technology replaces reliable people of course.
Yes, it is always the ATCO that "carries the can" on the sector but as technology stands at the moment ATC is still very very much a team game; I truly believe that. And whilst those members of the support staff may not have undergone such intensive training as those at the "sharp end" I think everyone would agree that the job would be much much more difficult nay impossible without them (as it stands today)?
Sticking up for the ATSAs here especially - there are many of my colleagues who readily admit that on many occasions they've been "saved" or very very appropriately assisted by an on-the-ball ATSA.
I find this whole ATCOs vs ATSAs / Support Staff thing that, yes does seem to appear to be a Southern thing in the main part (it certainly doesn't go on at my unit), a massive waste of time and a little childish to be honest. As well as detrimental to us as a workforce as a whole, especially at pay deal time. Divide and rule and all that. We're all supposed to be colleagues supporting each other and working towards a common goal (excuse the semi-management speak) - that can't be easy for both sides when each thinks they are the more valuable / righteous / worthy etc etc etc
In short yes, ATCOs are undoubtedly the most valuable asset any ATS provider. But, at the moment, take the ATSAs, TELS and the majority of the other support bods out of the equation or make them in some way unworthy, unequal or downtrodden - and licences and all that hard training wouldn't matter a great deal
Until that is, reliable technology replaces reliable people of course.
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dc10
think it might be arranged but you would have to agree on moving to the new scottish
i'm sure one of our collegues would happily swap with you
think it might be arranged but you would have to agree on moving to the new scottish
i'm sure one of our collegues would happily swap with you
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I joined the CAA as it then was in 1981 Manchesters closure was imminent then,I shall believe it when it happens. I am for closing Swanwick down and transferring everyone to Manchester!. I would swop with someone at Manchester without a moments hesitation.
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So here we are two years on, having learned ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, having the same old ATSA/ATCO argument just in time for the negotiations to come. Try to learn from your mistakes (although I think I'm flogging a dead horse) arguing between ourselves only strengthens the management position. Let's pull together this time before the inevitable collapse.
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Greebson -
I couldn't agree more. It IS the same old ATSA/ATCO thing - but how do you get the ATCOs and their Union to acknowledge the fact that ATC is staffed by people other than just ATCOs? If they would just for once take notice of all the in-house damage they do by taking the "holier than thou" attitude, both on a day to day basis and at the negotiating table, (and try to integrate rather than separate themselves from the rest of us), then maybe, just maybe, this problem would resolve itself.
I have spent years trying to fathom out the reasons why there is a problem with the ATCO/everybody else working relationship, and coming up with some sort of rational solution to this dilemma. However, the fact of the matter is that many ATCOs just don't want to be part of a team - they think they ARE the team. And before all you ATCOs start tapping out your "what the **** are you talking about?" responses, just consider this point. If you really, truly consider all of us (ATSAs, ATCOs et al) to be all batting for the same side, then why is it that when things like the pay negotiations come around, your Union and yourselves have ALWAYS got to have that little bit more than the rest of us? Do you not realise that, when dealing with limited resources, whatever they are, the gains that you make/demand will ultimately be made at the expense of the rest of us?
I really cannot see why Prospect and its members won't agree to an across- the-board equal percentage pay rise. ATCOs will still end up with more in their pockets than the rest of us, but at least we won't feel that we've been shafted yet again at the negotiating table, as happened last time around. A little bit of co-operation (unity?) between the Unions, and a general open acceptance by everybody that we ALL have relevant parts to play in this business, would go a long way to healing the divisions.
As for myself, I will continue to "flog the dead horse". A policy of fairness applied across the board is the only way to resolve this issue. Greebson, pass me the whip when you've finished with it!
PS: Gonzo - I expect you do AAVAs - spend some of it on a bar of ExLax - might relieve the "nnnnghhh" factor apparent in your last post.
PPS - And Jerricho (the ATSAs' Friend!!) - ref your reply - usual derogatory sh*te - looks like you could do with a box of the stuff!
I couldn't agree more. It IS the same old ATSA/ATCO thing - but how do you get the ATCOs and their Union to acknowledge the fact that ATC is staffed by people other than just ATCOs? If they would just for once take notice of all the in-house damage they do by taking the "holier than thou" attitude, both on a day to day basis and at the negotiating table, (and try to integrate rather than separate themselves from the rest of us), then maybe, just maybe, this problem would resolve itself.
I have spent years trying to fathom out the reasons why there is a problem with the ATCO/everybody else working relationship, and coming up with some sort of rational solution to this dilemma. However, the fact of the matter is that many ATCOs just don't want to be part of a team - they think they ARE the team. And before all you ATCOs start tapping out your "what the **** are you talking about?" responses, just consider this point. If you really, truly consider all of us (ATSAs, ATCOs et al) to be all batting for the same side, then why is it that when things like the pay negotiations come around, your Union and yourselves have ALWAYS got to have that little bit more than the rest of us? Do you not realise that, when dealing with limited resources, whatever they are, the gains that you make/demand will ultimately be made at the expense of the rest of us?
I really cannot see why Prospect and its members won't agree to an across- the-board equal percentage pay rise. ATCOs will still end up with more in their pockets than the rest of us, but at least we won't feel that we've been shafted yet again at the negotiating table, as happened last time around. A little bit of co-operation (unity?) between the Unions, and a general open acceptance by everybody that we ALL have relevant parts to play in this business, would go a long way to healing the divisions.
As for myself, I will continue to "flog the dead horse". A policy of fairness applied across the board is the only way to resolve this issue. Greebson, pass me the whip when you've finished with it!
PS: Gonzo - I expect you do AAVAs - spend some of it on a bar of ExLax - might relieve the "nnnnghhh" factor apparent in your last post.
PPS - And Jerricho (the ATSAs' Friend!!) - ref your reply - usual derogatory sh*te - looks like you could do with a box of the stuff!
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No disrrespect folks but Doctors get paid more than nurses, pilots get paid more than dispatchers, and we all get paid more than toilet attendants. So I'm at a loss to see why ATCOs shouldn't get more than ATSAs. ATCOs #### up and it's on the front page of the papers. A licence is a licence is a licence. If you don't like that or can't live with it .......... get a licence.
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Couldn't agree more!
Now don't get me wrong - I am definitely not anti ATSA and have never added fuel to this long burning fire before, but;
I actually admire our ATSA team members - I think it's amazing how you have managed to wrap management around your little fingers! Imagine approaching the "average" person in the street, may they be a firefighter, postman, nurse or teacher etc., and telling them that for up to £36k a year, two thirds of your working time is spent reading the daily rags or mags, fiddling with pieces of printed paper then having a break!
The ATSA task may well have been reduced by the company with our move to NERC, and I'm sure (or I hope) you want to do more to relieve the boredome - but you have to admit, in terms of productivity it's not a bad monthly pay packet, is it?
Now don't get me wrong - I am definitely not anti ATSA and have never added fuel to this long burning fire before, but;
I actually admire our ATSA team members - I think it's amazing how you have managed to wrap management around your little fingers! Imagine approaching the "average" person in the street, may they be a firefighter, postman, nurse or teacher etc., and telling them that for up to £36k a year, two thirds of your working time is spent reading the daily rags or mags, fiddling with pieces of printed paper then having a break!
The ATSA task may well have been reduced by the company with our move to NERC, and I'm sure (or I hope) you want to do more to relieve the boredome - but you have to admit, in terms of productivity it's not a bad monthly pay packet, is it?
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Connex,
I'm sorry, Connex, but that sounds like you're calling me a liar. Could you clarify that for me?
I'm not going to argue with you, because I think the only thing we'll agree in is that we'll never agree.
Before you judge me, though, why don't you come to Heathrow and watch my pathetically degrogatory behaviour towards my ATSA colleagues, and see how differently I treat them to the controllers.
(edit for spelling)
Gonzo - I expect you do AAVAs
I'm not going to argue with you, because I think the only thing we'll agree in is that we'll never agree.
Before you judge me, though, why don't you come to Heathrow and watch my pathetically degrogatory behaviour towards my ATSA colleagues, and see how differently I treat them to the controllers.
(edit for spelling)
Last edited by Gonzo; 29th Nov 2003 at 01:15.
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Connex As an ex ATCA and somewhat time served ATCO, I am pleased to say I have lots of NATS staff as friends around the country, some of them ATCOs. At each unit where I have worked there have been whingers in all grades.
Have a thought about this. In your view the ATCO and their union have beligerent attitudes. Actually that may be the very reason NATS rewards it's staff the way it does.
Compare the reward packages of our support staff to similar industries. In some cases they are considerably better than comparible jobs elsewhere. Those who are not generally have greater ability to move and will do so. You make your mind up whether the noisy lot with attitude have anything to do with the overall reward situation.
In the meantime you will simply find us noisy lot will continue to demand better conditions because we have market forces and industrial muscle in our favour. We can still see improvements to be had and comparisons to be made ( just wait until our lot regularly mingle with our Spanish cousins !! ) and we don't intend sitting back waiting for the never never day when we are offered more than we believe we are worth. If that improves everyone's lot then we are all happy.
Have a thought about this. In your view the ATCO and their union have beligerent attitudes. Actually that may be the very reason NATS rewards it's staff the way it does.
Compare the reward packages of our support staff to similar industries. In some cases they are considerably better than comparible jobs elsewhere. Those who are not generally have greater ability to move and will do so. You make your mind up whether the noisy lot with attitude have anything to do with the overall reward situation.
In the meantime you will simply find us noisy lot will continue to demand better conditions because we have market forces and industrial muscle in our favour. We can still see improvements to be had and comparisons to be made ( just wait until our lot regularly mingle with our Spanish cousins !! ) and we don't intend sitting back waiting for the never never day when we are offered more than we believe we are worth. If that improves everyone's lot then we are all happy.