NATS Pay/WP
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I don't have a problem with operational controllers from LACC who are seconded to CATC getting BAND 5 salries.
NATS seems to have a policy of rewarding failure with a cushy posting to CATC (At least for the Aerodrome/Approach side), why should the people who have failed to validate at a BAND 2 unit be earning a BAND 5 salary?? They sure as hell couldn't validate at a BAND 5 unit.
If CATC is to be a BAND 5 unit, then ONLY ATCOs who have a proven track record in Aerodrome/Approach should be allowed to go there and earn the salary that NATS/(No)PROSPECT(s) think that they deserve.
NATS seems to have a policy of rewarding failure with a cushy posting to CATC (At least for the Aerodrome/Approach side), why should the people who have failed to validate at a BAND 2 unit be earning a BAND 5 salary?? They sure as hell couldn't validate at a BAND 5 unit.
If CATC is to be a BAND 5 unit, then ONLY ATCOs who have a proven track record in Aerodrome/Approach should be allowed to go there and earn the salary that NATS/(No)PROSPECT(s) think that they deserve.
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"40% more for the rest of your career?"
On average you are getting 3-4% on basic every year anyway so the mark time would be 10-12 years at the very most. My salary is/will be up 25% in 4 years 2001-2005 so the actual mark time would only be a few years, OK, I am band 5. Even as a band 1 you would be relatively experienced to be considered for CATC so therefore not at the bottom of the 1 scale, so your mark time would, IMHO, be 6 years at most. Justifiable? If you consider 2 house moves, family etc its probably fair.
Think before you (dramatically) post.
On average you are getting 3-4% on basic every year anyway so the mark time would be 10-12 years at the very most. My salary is/will be up 25% in 4 years 2001-2005 so the actual mark time would only be a few years, OK, I am band 5. Even as a band 1 you would be relatively experienced to be considered for CATC so therefore not at the bottom of the 1 scale, so your mark time would, IMHO, be 6 years at most. Justifiable? If you consider 2 house moves, family etc its probably fair.
Think before you (dramatically) post.
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Hi Y'all;
This has been interesting reading and remeniscent to some of our postings when we were going through our reorganisation. For those who stated that your pay deal and restructuring was going the way of the US. Here is a web site that shows our publication of the pay structure.
http://atpayplan.natca.net/
click on the button that says standard...
regards
Scott
This has been interesting reading and remeniscent to some of our postings when we were going through our reorganisation. For those who stated that your pay deal and restructuring was going the way of the US. Here is a web site that shows our publication of the pay structure.
http://atpayplan.natca.net/
click on the button that says standard...
regards
Scott
Join Date: Aug 2001
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As I understand it NATS insisted that the College be a top band unit to make it attractive to younger controllers. It would be a good career move for an ATCO at a lower band unit to do three years at the college earlier rather than later.
NATS, quite rightly, want competition for places at the college so they can select the best people rather than having to make do. If ATCOs are doing three years in the college earlier in their career they stand a much better chance of revalidating so the turn over at CATC will be far higher, to everybodys benefit.
NATS, quite rightly, want competition for places at the college so they can select the best people rather than having to make do. If ATCOs are doing three years in the college earlier in their career they stand a much better chance of revalidating so the turn over at CATC will be far higher, to everybodys benefit.
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Arkady,
Your assuming that these young controllers can actually be released by their units to move to the college, what with all the staffing issues and training requirements I've no doubt that we could get out in maybe 5 - 10 years, by which time we won't be so young!!!!
Your assuming that these young controllers can actually be released by their units to move to the college, what with all the staffing issues and training requirements I've no doubt that we could get out in maybe 5 - 10 years, by which time we won't be so young!!!!
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cpwm
This is a battle that needs to be fought. If you are too valuable to your unit to be allowed to move to a higher payed post then perhaps your unit needs to be moved up the banding structure(which is the whole point of a single payscale and bands) or you should be entitled to compensation. As far as the college goes, NATS has indicated how much importance they place on it by making it a Band 5 unit. I doubt that a regional GM could block the transfer of some one who the college wanted and who was determined to get there.
I would have thought that 5 to 10 years experiance was about right for a college instructor or did you mean 5 to 10 years after your application?
This is a battle that needs to be fought. If you are too valuable to your unit to be allowed to move to a higher payed post then perhaps your unit needs to be moved up the banding structure(which is the whole point of a single payscale and bands) or you should be entitled to compensation. As far as the college goes, NATS has indicated how much importance they place on it by making it a Band 5 unit. I doubt that a regional GM could block the transfer of some one who the college wanted and who was determined to get there.
I would have thought that 5 to 10 years experiance was about right for a college instructor or did you mean 5 to 10 years after your application?
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The College
Must agree with the sentiment that the college should be staffed with the best we've got on a rotating tour cycle. Is anyone suggesting that the college is not staffed to that level of competence......not a claim to be made lightly.....and not one that I would make at all!
I'm Just A Lawnmower
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Well, yesterday's meeting at ScOACC was an interesting affair to say the least. The Prospect bigwigs put on a good display. Basically, they have negotiated a good deal for all of us. Aside from the annual pay award, everyone has got something from the WPP negotiations for little or no actual changes to working practices. Nice one chaps...
However, when thrown open to the floor, it seemed that not all the members were convinced. It came down, not surprisingly, to the differentials. Firstly, the formula by which each unit was rated was challenged. Alas, the person who was an expert in this formula was not present (he will be there today) and the half a dozen reps that were there couldn't really explain how it worked. But we really ought to trust it, even though it seemed to show that LACC was three times more deserving than our unit. Hmmm...
The other point that kept popping up was how the WPP money was distributed (about £6.2 million, apparently). It was pointed out that as a national agreement, it really ought to be distributed equally amongst the members.
The reps countered this by saying that in effect, that would mean 4.5%, pretty much the same as what we Band 4s are getting anyway.
Yes we said, but at least it would be fairer on ALL ATCOs.
But LACC/TC are more deserving they said, look at the banding formula.
We have, we replied, but the 'expert' isn't here to make any sense of it. And anyway, LACC/TC are two spine points ahead of us already.
Ah, they said, but LACC are the only unit to suffer from the WPP arrangements.
Are we not losing proportionally the same number of people from our OR we asked?
Errrmmmm, yes, but LACC will have 0530 starts, you only have them in principal came the response.
So there you have it. In a nutshell, LACC are getting an extra spine point for the inconvinience of an 0530 start every once in a while (incidentally, that shift finishes at 1100). It is almost worth asking our local reps to negotiate some for us.
However, when thrown open to the floor, it seemed that not all the members were convinced. It came down, not surprisingly, to the differentials. Firstly, the formula by which each unit was rated was challenged. Alas, the person who was an expert in this formula was not present (he will be there today) and the half a dozen reps that were there couldn't really explain how it worked. But we really ought to trust it, even though it seemed to show that LACC was three times more deserving than our unit. Hmmm...
The other point that kept popping up was how the WPP money was distributed (about £6.2 million, apparently). It was pointed out that as a national agreement, it really ought to be distributed equally amongst the members.
The reps countered this by saying that in effect, that would mean 4.5%, pretty much the same as what we Band 4s are getting anyway.
Yes we said, but at least it would be fairer on ALL ATCOs.
But LACC/TC are more deserving they said, look at the banding formula.
We have, we replied, but the 'expert' isn't here to make any sense of it. And anyway, LACC/TC are two spine points ahead of us already.
Ah, they said, but LACC are the only unit to suffer from the WPP arrangements.
Are we not losing proportionally the same number of people from our OR we asked?
Errrmmmm, yes, but LACC will have 0530 starts, you only have them in principal came the response.
So there you have it. In a nutshell, LACC are getting an extra spine point for the inconvinience of an 0530 start every once in a while (incidentally, that shift finishes at 1100). It is almost worth asking our local reps to negotiate some for us.
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Well let's hope the expert on the grading strucutre will be hanging on to attend the meeting at PF tonight.
Nice post BALIX, it would seem that our union is only interested in getting the cash for LACC etc and sod the rest of us..........0530 -1100, well worth the xtra money!!!!!
Nice post BALIX, it would seem that our union is only interested in getting the cash for LACC etc and sod the rest of us..........0530 -1100, well worth the xtra money!!!!!
I'm Just A Lawnmower
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Nice post BALIX, it would seem that our union is only interested in getting the cash for LACC etc and sod the rest of us
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Not wanting to add any more to the gulf that seems to have opened up at Watford Gap, and adding that I have yet to make up my mind as I have not been to a briefing:
It makes a change that this time the tables are reversed. Normally LTCC and LACC have been unconvinced about the pay deal and have had real concerns. We have voted against a proposal, only to be overruled by the will of the airports and other units who see the deal as a good one from their point of view. Such is the nature of national ballots.
How does it feel to have it happening to you this time?
It makes a change that this time the tables are reversed. Normally LTCC and LACC have been unconvinced about the pay deal and have had real concerns. We have voted against a proposal, only to be overruled by the will of the airports and other units who see the deal as a good one from their point of view. Such is the nature of national ballots.
How does it feel to have it happening to you this time?
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Eye,
I think you'll find that the majority of eligible votes in any ballot is held by the boys and girls down south, you may well have moaned and whinged about offers in the past but the majority of you have voted in favour of them
If all the airports (inc LL) voted against this deal along with MACC then it will still got through just because of the sheer weight of numbers you have down South.
I think you'll find that the majority of eligible votes in any ballot is held by the boys and girls down south, you may well have moaned and whinged about offers in the past but the majority of you have voted in favour of them
If all the airports (inc LL) voted against this deal along with MACC then it will still got through just because of the sheer weight of numbers you have down South.
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eye
At my unit (bet you can't guess where) the vast majority of ATCOs were against the deal. I think what all units have are a silent majority that want no hassle, or genuinely believe we're getting good deals. you hear lots of people verbally disagreeing with deals but nobody ever stands up and says, Actually I think that's a very good deal. Not at the airport I work in certainly.
At my unit (bet you can't guess where) the vast majority of ATCOs were against the deal. I think what all units have are a silent majority that want no hassle, or genuinely believe we're getting good deals. you hear lots of people verbally disagreeing with deals but nobody ever stands up and says, Actually I think that's a very good deal. Not at the airport I work in certainly.
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Thanks for the update BALIX. I understand what you are saying abou the 0530 starts but the reason for them is that the night staffing is being cut to the quick and there HAS to be some relief at 0530-and not just the occasional one but around 1 per month for every single person. Nights are certainly going to become far more arduous with only 3 for 2 postions and no SRATCOH exemption-yet. Also we will be more prone to sector closures if sickness occurs than we are now but we should let management worry about that one.
Shame the expert wasn't there but I understand that a pretty good run down of all this was given at conference to all the reps including ScOACC and indeed conference unanimously passed a motion authorising the BEC to continue down this route and apparently little has changed in terms of the scoring since then-I just can't understand why this seems to have taken everyone by surprise.
I don't know that it shows LACC 3x more deserving than ScOACC but certainly the scores I saw gave a big difference between the "big 2" and the others-transparent?-let's hope so after all this.
caniplay-can we have a resume of the PF meeting later-assuming anyone turns up
Shame the expert wasn't there but I understand that a pretty good run down of all this was given at conference to all the reps including ScOACC and indeed conference unanimously passed a motion authorising the BEC to continue down this route and apparently little has changed in terms of the scoring since then-I just can't understand why this seems to have taken everyone by surprise.
I don't know that it shows LACC 3x more deserving than ScOACC but certainly the scores I saw gave a big difference between the "big 2" and the others-transparent?-let's hope so after all this.
caniplay-can we have a resume of the PF meeting later-assuming anyone turns up
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It seems to me that the crucial component of the new pay structure is that the bands are not fixed. If a unit can justify movement to a higher band within the agreed structure then rebanding is automatic (warning: your banding could go down as well as up). More movements should mean more money.
If the formula that determines the banding is open to negotiation in the future there is another chance for units change bands.
The deal is a good one for everyone. It is a better deal for some (the majority) but however you may feel over your units grading it is not worth voting against it. Of course, being at LACC it’s easy for me to say that.
If the formula that determines the banding is open to negotiation in the future there is another chance for units change bands.
The deal is a good one for everyone. It is a better deal for some (the majority) but however you may feel over your units grading it is not worth voting against it. Of course, being at LACC it’s easy for me to say that.
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It's all very well saying that a unit score could change, so affecting the units banding. But have you seen how they calculated the score in the first place.
It seems that an approach radar movement is worth 0.5, while a tower movement is worth 1.0
So the band 5 luton approach controller only gets half the score of the tower controller who is band 1.
Makes complete sense then...
Sonic
It seems that an approach radar movement is worth 0.5, while a tower movement is worth 1.0
So the band 5 luton approach controller only gets half the score of the tower controller who is band 1.
Makes complete sense then...
Sonic
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Trouble is, where do you draw the line?......different validations within units? (eg. TC Thames Radar and Luton Radar vs NW Deps.)
But then what about the other day when I did a total of three hours in bandboxed GMC when one of my colleagues spent the whole day swapping between 27R Arrivals and Delivery...... Is it fair that I was on the same pay scale as him for the day?
But then what about the other day when I did a total of three hours in bandboxed GMC when one of my colleagues spent the whole day swapping between 27R Arrivals and Delivery...... Is it fair that I was on the same pay scale as him for the day?
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mainecoon,
Crap eh?-a MACC ATCO at top of scale goes from £56.4k to £62.6k in 13 months-and ask what do I have to do differently to get that rise-not a thing.
Unfortunately with the present mood at MACC I reckon they could offer you all 20% and it wouldn't be enough!!
But Arkady is right are we seriously thinking about binning this deal rather than accepting this as a first stage and putting pressure on the negotiators to right the issues that people have highlighted.
Crap eh?-a MACC ATCO at top of scale goes from £56.4k to £62.6k in 13 months-and ask what do I have to do differently to get that rise-not a thing.
Unfortunately with the present mood at MACC I reckon they could offer you all 20% and it wouldn't be enough!!
But Arkady is right are we seriously thinking about binning this deal rather than accepting this as a first stage and putting pressure on the negotiators to right the issues that people have highlighted.