NATS Pay/WP
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My two bobs worth ....
Unit regrading and pay should be separate issues.
Just as previous OJTI deal was lumped in with pay .... bad move.
Unit gradings should be on the traffic complexity etc ... and NOT on location/cost of living. And don't tell me that SS, BB and being an instructor at CATC or a deskpusher in the Ivory Towers are more complex than the proposed Grade 4 units
(AA,PF,PH,PD etc)
And then by all means add in a (pensionable) cost of living payment to top up regional price differences. If that means a £20000 London Weighting then fine, but let's be transparent about this and make it bloody obvious that the increased wages is all about WHERE you live and not what you do !
But just remember that we ALL work hard (and harder than we did 5 or 10 or 15 yrs ago), whether it's at LL, LACC, AA, FF, ScACC
Just as previous OJTI deal was lumped in with pay .... bad move.
Unit gradings should be on the traffic complexity etc ... and NOT on location/cost of living. And don't tell me that SS, BB and being an instructor at CATC or a deskpusher in the Ivory Towers are more complex than the proposed Grade 4 units
(AA,PF,PH,PD etc)And then by all means add in a (pensionable) cost of living payment to top up regional price differences. If that means a £20000 London Weighting then fine, but let's be transparent about this and make it bloody obvious that the increased wages is all about WHERE you live and not what you do !
But just remember that we ALL work hard (and harder than we did 5 or 10 or 15 yrs ago), whether it's at LL, LACC, AA, FF, ScACC
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Junior X
I think you under-estimate your colleagues by assuming that they have made up their minds and are unwilling to listen to what Prospect have to say. It does seem however that Prospect have made up their minds, they may listen but they are certainly not that interested in the Regional Airports. The only reason they are touring the units is because they are concerned at the strength of the opposition to this and are desperate for this deal to go through. That is why CATC is band 5, a guaranteed 100% yes vote.
PH-KUE
Too right we all work hard, and you can include all the units on that list.
Not all units in the South East get London Weighting, I live in an village that includes ATCO'S from a number of units, they are entitled to London weighting to help with the cost of living, I am not.
The complexities are different at all the units, all this I work harder then you justs adds to the problem, maybe they should just leave the grading ATCO 2 and ATCO 3.
Call me cynical but 2 visits from prospect in the last 10 years and both of them within the last 3 months.
I think you under-estimate your colleagues by assuming that they have made up their minds and are unwilling to listen to what Prospect have to say. It does seem however that Prospect have made up their minds, they may listen but they are certainly not that interested in the Regional Airports. The only reason they are touring the units is because they are concerned at the strength of the opposition to this and are desperate for this deal to go through. That is why CATC is band 5, a guaranteed 100% yes vote.
PH-KUE
Too right we all work hard, and you can include all the units on that list.
Not all units in the South East get London Weighting, I live in an village that includes ATCO'S from a number of units, they are entitled to London weighting to help with the cost of living, I am not.
The complexities are different at all the units, all this I work harder then you justs adds to the problem, maybe they should just leave the grading ATCO 2 and ATCO 3.
Call me cynical but 2 visits from prospect in the last 10 years and both of them within the last 3 months.
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PH-UKU
The grading system IS based around what you do and not where you live. The banding system is based on traffic complexity, traffic volume and sustained traffic loading. At no point does where you live come into the equation. However, CATC aside, the south east is where the busier units are, and as result they appear in the higher bands.
PA7
OK, prospect haven't visited you for years until recently, but it is still vital that you go along to your pay meeting to hear what they have to say and to put forward your views. However if what you say is true and the reps don't care about the regionals why are they visiting at all? If they really felt that there was no benefit to the regional airports and you were all going to vote no regardless of what they said, they would be better off just visiting the units that they feel will vote yes, would they not? The fact is that the system used to calculate the banding is transparent and the union guys are happy to talk people through it as they have nothing to hide.
Cheers
JuniorX
The grading system IS based around what you do and not where you live. The banding system is based on traffic complexity, traffic volume and sustained traffic loading. At no point does where you live come into the equation. However, CATC aside, the south east is where the busier units are, and as result they appear in the higher bands.
PA7
OK, prospect haven't visited you for years until recently, but it is still vital that you go along to your pay meeting to hear what they have to say and to put forward your views. However if what you say is true and the reps don't care about the regionals why are they visiting at all? If they really felt that there was no benefit to the regional airports and you were all going to vote no regardless of what they said, they would be better off just visiting the units that they feel will vote yes, would they not? The fact is that the system used to calculate the banding is transparent and the union guys are happy to talk people through it as they have nothing to hide.
Cheers
JuniorX
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JuniorX
I respect your point of view, the banding may be transparent but the fact remains, traffic and complexities cannot just be ignored because they find it difficult to quantify them. I have seen the presentation it looks great when they include all of your work it also looks sh*t when they don't. If it is such a great deal why has the moral at my unit plummeted, why is every member p*ssed off with Prospect.
When the grading system was described to us where you live was included as part of the banding.
I respect your point of view, the banding may be transparent but the fact remains, traffic and complexities cannot just be ignored because they find it difficult to quantify them. I have seen the presentation it looks great when they include all of your work it also looks sh*t when they don't. If it is such a great deal why has the moral at my unit plummeted, why is every member p*ssed off with Prospect.
When the grading system was described to us where you live was included as part of the banding.
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Junior X wrote
"The grading system IS based around what you do and not where you live. The banding system is based on traffic complexity, traffic volume and sustained traffic loading. At no point does where you live come into the equation. "
OK then, some questions.
1 - On average how many sectors does each ac pass through at LACC, and for how long ? There are some sectors at (for eg.) ScACC which are perhaps 200 miles across. One movement can be on freq for perhaps 40-50 mins.
In short, sharp sectors it can be 6 or 7 minutes, but if that ac is being passed through 4 or 5 sectors is it counted as 4 or 5 movements ?
2- You are right. CATC (and HQ) staff are in Grade 5. How is an instructor at CATC working harder than a controller in a live environment putting his licence at risk every time he plugs in? By all means pay an 'Instructor Bung' to attract folk to CATC but don't fudge the grading system by saying it's in a measure of unit complexity.
3- Is it true that LACC last year advocated a pay cut for everyone else to fund a payrise for themselves?
4- I see no explanation of the 16%, 46%, 23%, -1% and 7%
'complexity' ratings for TC, LACC, MACC, OAC and ScACC.
5- Seems to me the rules have been written to get the desired result.
6- In the last year SS traffic was DOWN 2%, ScACC up 27%.
7- Has any account been taken of the s
t radar equipment at ScACC? Has any account been taken of the workload of some of the messy sectors with a lot of uncontrolled airspace (Tay springs to mind)? Has any account been taken that large parts of the larger North Sea sectors (Tyne, Humber) are taken up by MDAs?
"The grading system IS based around what you do and not where you live. The banding system is based on traffic complexity, traffic volume and sustained traffic loading. At no point does where you live come into the equation. "
OK then, some questions.
1 - On average how many sectors does each ac pass through at LACC, and for how long ? There are some sectors at (for eg.) ScACC which are perhaps 200 miles across. One movement can be on freq for perhaps 40-50 mins.
In short, sharp sectors it can be 6 or 7 minutes, but if that ac is being passed through 4 or 5 sectors is it counted as 4 or 5 movements ?
2- You are right. CATC (and HQ) staff are in Grade 5. How is an instructor at CATC working harder than a controller in a live environment putting his licence at risk every time he plugs in? By all means pay an 'Instructor Bung' to attract folk to CATC but don't fudge the grading system by saying it's in a measure of unit complexity.
3- Is it true that LACC last year advocated a pay cut for everyone else to fund a payrise for themselves?
4- I see no explanation of the 16%, 46%, 23%, -1% and 7%
'complexity' ratings for TC, LACC, MACC, OAC and ScACC.
5- Seems to me the rules have been written to get the desired result.
6- In the last year SS traffic was DOWN 2%, ScACC up 27%.
7- Has any account been taken of the s
t radar equipment at ScACC? Has any account been taken of the workload of some of the messy sectors with a lot of uncontrolled airspace (Tay springs to mind)? Has any account been taken that large parts of the larger North Sea sectors (Tyne, Humber) are taken up by MDAs?
Naughty but Nice
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Hi all,
just picked up again briefly on the discussion, haven't had chance to read it all, (promise I will when I've posted this) but I just noted in the last post the complaints about CATC being band 5. To put it as I see it (simply) CATC has to be band 5 or no-one would ever go there, you won't see people leaving LACC/TC if they are going to get a pay drop, and people from ScOACC and MACC need to have some financial incentive to move from nice areas and uproot to come to the more expensive south. CATC needs good instructors who do the job, they need to have some way of attracting that.
Now I will go and read the rest of the thread and see if I've embarrassed myself by saying what someone alse already has!
Cheers,
Northerner (stuck in the south)
just picked up again briefly on the discussion, haven't had chance to read it all, (promise I will when I've posted this) but I just noted in the last post the complaints about CATC being band 5. To put it as I see it (simply) CATC has to be band 5 or no-one would ever go there, you won't see people leaving LACC/TC if they are going to get a pay drop, and people from ScOACC and MACC need to have some financial incentive to move from nice areas and uproot to come to the more expensive south. CATC needs good instructors who do the job, they need to have some way of attracting that.
Now I will go and read the rest of the thread and see if I've embarrassed myself by saying what someone alse already has!
Cheers,
Northerner (stuck in the south)
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So basically the only reason that CATC is band 5 is to get people to go there and nothing to do with complexities and workload. Oh yes and to make up for not having to work unsociable hours they are given a non op supplement
Does that mean then when other units become very unpopular; say EGPF in a few years they will be treated likewise...no thought not.
PH-UKU
Good points especially the complexity ratings
Does that mean then when other units become very unpopular; say EGPF in a few years they will be treated likewise...no thought not.
PH-UKU
Good points especially the complexity ratings
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I think the CATC is in absolutely the right place. All operational staff should have a wish to work at what should be a centre of educational excellence-just as the airlines do. I know it's nowhere near that at present but it is a target to be aspired to. After all the output is the means that we all get to retire at 55 hopefully. Yes attraction and retention would be a problem if it wasn't in Band 5 and that is no good for any of us.
I do think that there needs to be a different rate of UHP/NOS for units like this to build in some sort of recognition for the operational units.
PA7-you can't compare the CATC and operational units as NATS can post ab-initios in to less popular units but not to the CATC.
And why should PF become unpopular-I reckon the top of the scale there by next January is around £52k-as against £47k now. SS top of the scale is about £54k by next Jan. So someone 300 miles south is getting £2k more than you-is that really an issue when their airfield is so much busier?
Let's all remember this is a first stab at the structure and even the reps I've spoken to know it is far from perfect but it is a start which puts significant amounts into ALL ATCOs wallets. Let's get this stage in and encourage the BEC to ensure that outstanding gripes are dealt with swiftly.
I do think that there needs to be a different rate of UHP/NOS for units like this to build in some sort of recognition for the operational units.
PA7-you can't compare the CATC and operational units as NATS can post ab-initios in to less popular units but not to the CATC.
And why should PF become unpopular-I reckon the top of the scale there by next January is around £52k-as against £47k now. SS top of the scale is about £54k by next Jan. So someone 300 miles south is getting £2k more than you-is that really an issue when their airfield is so much busier?
Let's all remember this is a first stab at the structure and even the reps I've spoken to know it is far from perfect but it is a start which puts significant amounts into ALL ATCOs wallets. Let's get this stage in and encourage the BEC to ensure that outstanding gripes are dealt with swiftly.
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On the CATC point, it is also worth remembering that more and more of the instructors on the area side are still VALID controllers. I can think of at least four off the top of my head who have gone there recently from TC but are still doing several days a month at TC so as to keep their validations. So, if as several of you would like, CATC wasn't in band five what pay band should these guys be in?
This is by no means a one off situation either, as a few more people are set to move soon.
Cheers
JuniorX
This is by no means a one off situation either, as a few more people are set to move soon.
Cheers
JuniorX
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Good point. And also how would the MACC guys feel who must be volunteering in numbers to go to the CATC if it didn't mean a payrise. Always assuming that quite a number have volunteered rather than go to NPC!!
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JuniorX
Good point about the valid ATCO's instructing at CATC, maybe that would be the route to take, in that case band 5 for CATC.
250 Kts
EGPF was only used as an example, I am sure they are all delighted with the offer
Quote:
I do think that there needs to be a different rate of UHP/NOS for units like this to build in some sort of recognition for the operational units.
I have to agree with you on that one (Blimey agreeing with 250Kts, I better take some more of those pills
)
Good point about the valid ATCO's instructing at CATC, maybe that would be the route to take, in that case band 5 for CATC.
250 Kts
EGPF was only used as an example, I am sure they are all delighted with the offer
Quote:
I do think that there needs to be a different rate of UHP/NOS for units like this to build in some sort of recognition for the operational units.
I have to agree with you on that one (Blimey agreeing with 250Kts, I better take some more of those pills
)
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Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but someone on my watch has managed to get hold of a copy of the formula that works out the unit (area) scores that are used to create the bandings. It makes interesting reading.
What it boils down to is that because all of the calculations relate back to the traffic volumes for each centre, if you start out with a large centre with lots of traffic (though not necessarily with a great deal of complexity or mix of traffic, as when these factors are taken in to account they only have a small percentage effect on the overall score, in comparison to a large initial volume of traffic), the final score is always going to be far larger than that for a small centre with a lower amount of traffic, but with very high complexity/ mix of traffic, even if the staffing ratios are similar.
In practice what this means is that when MACC head north, the score for the combined centre will simply be the sum of the two centres individual scores at present. This is despite the sectors, staffing, mix and complexity remaining exactly the same (just combined under the one roof). There may be a slight drop in the combined figure however (having just read what i've typed), due to a slight drop in the unit traffic volume due to those flights that remain wholly within the combined centres area of responsibility, instead of being counted individually as a movement for ScATCC and one for MACC.
This magic formula that has been devised unfairly gives a massive advantage to those who happen to work in a large centre.
Is this fair
P.S. Thanks to he, with the maths degree (and brain the size of a planet), for pointing all this out.
What it boils down to is that because all of the calculations relate back to the traffic volumes for each centre, if you start out with a large centre with lots of traffic (though not necessarily with a great deal of complexity or mix of traffic, as when these factors are taken in to account they only have a small percentage effect on the overall score, in comparison to a large initial volume of traffic), the final score is always going to be far larger than that for a small centre with a lower amount of traffic, but with very high complexity/ mix of traffic, even if the staffing ratios are similar.
In practice what this means is that when MACC head north, the score for the combined centre will simply be the sum of the two centres individual scores at present. This is despite the sectors, staffing, mix and complexity remaining exactly the same (just combined under the one roof). There may be a slight drop in the combined figure however (having just read what i've typed), due to a slight drop in the unit traffic volume due to those flights that remain wholly within the combined centres area of responsibility, instead of being counted individually as a movement for ScATCC and one for MACC.
This magic formula that has been devised unfairly gives a massive advantage to those who happen to work in a large centre.
Is this fair
P.S. Thanks to he, with the maths degree (and brain the size of a planet), for pointing all this out.
Last edited by Pheasant Plucker; 2nd Feb 2004 at 00:44.
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Pheasant Plucker - wait for your briefing. The larger units may be busier (just due to the amount of airspace) however they have calculated the scores using many different criteria not just how busy you are, this is all explained and the model for the combination has already been drawn, you'll find that they have compensated for everything (ie averaged out the results) so it still stands true.
PH-UKU, if you want to bring in ****e radar coverage and conditions, did you ever see Swanwick for the first year of activation....
PH-UKU, if you want to bring in ****e radar coverage and conditions, did you ever see Swanwick for the first year of activation....
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Yeah right,So the guy at TC doing approach for EGGW is working a different job to the CC,PF,PD,PH guys? Traffic levels much the same but the TC guy gets 18+K a year more.What formula is that apart from shaft the regional airports again to keep down south happy.
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One way to make it fairer would be to band the approach controllers who work at TC with the airports that they do approach for. So Gatwick Approach would be band 4, Stansted band 3, and Thames (City radar) and Luton would be Band ONE !!!!
I'm sure all of those controllers would surely agree
As for valid controllers working at CATC, yes that's a valid point. However, that's only on the area side. They have too many for tower and approach. Maybe it's time to move the area training to Swanwick. That way, you would get more relevant training, and better staff utilisation, and probably better results - ie more passes.
Then the rest of the college could become a band 1 or 2 airport grade. Get rid of the NOS, and maybe offer incentives to go there.
As for the whole banding process, some people have spoken of its transparency - well it was so transparent that thousands of movements have just disappeared. Or maybe it was so opaque that they never got in. It seems really that the bigger you are, the better you'll do, and sod everyone else.
Remember - it's not the money - it's the value.
Sonic
would be to band the approach controllers who work at TC with the airports that they do approach for. So Gatwick Approach would be band 4, Stansted band 3, and Thames (City radar) and Luton would be Band ONE !!!!I'm sure all of those controllers would surely agree
As for valid controllers working at CATC, yes that's a valid point. However, that's only on the area side. They have too many for tower and approach. Maybe it's time to move the area training to Swanwick. That way, you would get more relevant training, and better staff utilisation, and probably better results - ie more passes.
Then the rest of the college could become a band 1 or 2 airport grade. Get rid of the NOS, and maybe offer incentives to go there.
As for the whole banding process, some people have spoken of its transparency - well it was so transparent that thousands of movements have just disappeared. Or maybe it was so opaque that they never got in. It seems really that the bigger you are, the better you'll do, and sod everyone else.
Remember - it's not the money - it's the value.
Sonic
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The CATC argument for band 5 has a fundamental flaw on the approach side and that is that once embedded at CATC there will never be any movement back out to the airports apart from LL, because of the massive drop in the standard of living.
There are already a proportion of instructors that have not worked live traffic for over 10 years that would only increase over time.
Sonic seems to have come up with a viable solution The only trouble is that these ATCO's might get a bit upset and we can't have that can we
There are already a proportion of instructors that have not worked live traffic for over 10 years that would only increase over time.
Sonic seems to have come up with a viable solution
The only trouble is that these ATCO's might get a bit upset and we can't have that can we
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PA7
Provided you were at the college for more than 12 months, standard mark time arrangements would kick in. You would mark time on the salary you were on at the College until your Band 1/2/3/4 scales caught up at whatever unit you were posted back to.
Provided you were at the college for more than 12 months, standard mark time arrangements would kick in. You would mark time on the salary you were on at the College until your Band 1/2/3/4 scales caught up at whatever unit you were posted back to.
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5milesbaby wrote
"PH-UKU, if you want to bring in ****e radar coverage and conditions, did you ever see Swanwick for the first year of activation.... "
OOooooooh, what would I give for a luverly 30 inch colour radar display for my 150 mile sector ?
Try doing the job with a ****ty 17 inch green CRT from Dixons.
Didn't actually mention coverage, but we just take it for granted that that is s t as well !! 6A coverage for climbouts from AA and AC - Dublin have got better coverage in our airspace ....
don't get me started
"PH-UKU, if you want to bring in ****e radar coverage and conditions, did you ever see Swanwick for the first year of activation.... "
OOooooooh, what would I give for a luverly 30 inch colour radar display for my 150 mile sector ?
Try doing the job with a ****ty 17 inch green CRT from Dixons.
Didn't actually mention coverage, but we just take it for granted that that is s
t as well !! 6A coverage for climbouts from AA and AC - Dublin have got better coverage in our airspace ....don't get me started
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So basically you would be earning that 40% more for the rest of your career!!! Sounds like a good move to me, go to the college, see out your last few years at a band 1/2 (where of course you won't be busy in a complex airspace environment (Both Controlled and Uncontrolled), your salary will always be more than that of your colleagues and then retire, knowing that the CATC bung has served you well.