NATS Pay/WP
Join Date: Dec 1999
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So there seems to be a variety of reasons some people will vote no:
1) Purely because it's a two year deal.
2) There's going to be a bigger pay differential between units, and those at the quieter units feel this unfair and those at the busier units are being greedy.
3) There have been some 'short cuts' on the criteria for grading the units.
Can anyone point me towards a document where it says that movements outside CAS were not included or judged to be unquantifiable?
1) Purely because it's a two year deal.
2) There's going to be a bigger pay differential between units, and those at the quieter units feel this unfair and those at the busier units are being greedy.
3) There have been some 'short cuts' on the criteria for grading the units.
Can anyone point me towards a document where it says that movements outside CAS were not included or judged to be unquantifiable?
Join Date: Jan 2004
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We should be having 2 votes
one for the pay award
one ror the restructuring
you should not have to accept the restructuring package to get your pay rise.Two totally different subjects, and I will be voting no
one for the pay award
one ror the restructuring
you should not have to accept the restructuring package to get your pay rise.Two totally different subjects, and I will be voting no
Join Date: Jun 2001
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The Deal
This isn't really a two-year deal....it's two one-year deals rolled into one. There will be no guessing what we get next year because we already know.....well done Prospect!
Join Date: May 2000
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Gonzo,
if everyone was being given a 8.7% rise, or a 4% or more rise this year, then I would vote yes, and I think most people would too.
As for a document about not counting outside CAS movements - a prospect rep and management rep went to every unit to work out the unit score. We were told then that 75,000 of our movements would not count as they were not 'quantifiable'.
However the FAA model that the scoring is based on does account for that traffic, so some changes have been made to adapt it to the UK.
I realise that you are very short of staff at EGLL. I personally would be happy if everyone got the same pay rise. Then to encourage people to units that need staff, a lump sum payment should be offered. I think in the long run, it would cost less, and you would get more staff wanting to come in, and people at the lower units would be happy from not being shat on.
It's not so much the money that's the problem - it's ignoring the work that people are doing by saying it's non-quantifiable. In a class D zone, you don't have to separate IFR from VFR. There is no zone at EGLF - all inbound traffic is on a RAS, and as such has to avoid all traffic. To make things easier, we can try and co-ordinate with the Lars traffic being worked. That's a lot of hard co-ordination for each inbound movement - but it doesn't count!
And why a 2 year deal after being told it would never happen again. The reason in the prospect circular is just babble.
We were also told that it would be a few years before this would come in. I think it's all a bit rushed. We definately need 2 votes.
Sonic
if everyone was being given a 8.7% rise, or a 4% or more rise this year, then I would vote yes, and I think most people would too.
As for a document about not counting outside CAS movements - a prospect rep and management rep went to every unit to work out the unit score. We were told then that 75,000 of our movements would not count as they were not 'quantifiable'.
However the FAA model that the scoring is based on does account for that traffic, so some changes have been made to adapt it to the UK.
I realise that you are very short of staff at EGLL. I personally would be happy if everyone got the same pay rise. Then to encourage people to units that need staff, a lump sum payment should be offered. I think in the long run, it would cost less, and you would get more staff wanting to come in, and people at the lower units would be happy from not being shat on.
It's not so much the money that's the problem - it's ignoring the work that people are doing by saying it's non-quantifiable. In a class D zone, you don't have to separate IFR from VFR. There is no zone at EGLF - all inbound traffic is on a RAS, and as such has to avoid all traffic. To make things easier, we can try and co-ordinate with the Lars traffic being worked. That's a lot of hard co-ordination for each inbound movement - but it doesn't count!
And why a 2 year deal after being told it would never happen again. The reason in the prospect circular is just babble.
We were also told that it would be a few years before this would come in. I think it's all a bit rushed. We definately need 2 votes.
Sonic
Join Date: Feb 2000
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OPNOT that is what is called negotiation. Management want to sell the working practices deal so they link a good above inflation rise to the "carrot" for working practices and you throw in the restructuring for nothing. They are the ones making the offer so they can choose to link them together as they always do. the negotiators have gone as far as possible and are now saying we think it is a reasonable offer and you should accept but here is your chance to vote.
Personally I am inclined to vote against. I think the basic pay offer to ALL staff is a good one and would be happy to accept. For an extra spine point ATCOs are being asked to further accept further widening of the gap from bottom to top of the ATCO pay scales with all the lottery that applies to postings etc. I disagree with the principle.
We are also being asked to accept a whole host of ifs, buts and possibles in the WPP application ... most of it at some management discretion and paid in time in lieu or non pensionable pay. We appear to also be completely throwing out the possibilities of further improving our conditions by saying we will accept overtime, part AVAs, different payment for AVAs, flexibility to managers to "ask" you to change from day to night shift at short notice with no reward, and a selling of leave.
With all that lot how can we possibly claim for shortened hours, better rosters or more leave ? On balance I intend to vote no but will wait for the explanation at my unit meeting.
Personally I am inclined to vote against. I think the basic pay offer to ALL staff is a good one and would be happy to accept. For an extra spine point ATCOs are being asked to further accept further widening of the gap from bottom to top of the ATCO pay scales with all the lottery that applies to postings etc. I disagree with the principle.
We are also being asked to accept a whole host of ifs, buts and possibles in the WPP application ... most of it at some management discretion and paid in time in lieu or non pensionable pay. We appear to also be completely throwing out the possibilities of further improving our conditions by saying we will accept overtime, part AVAs, different payment for AVAs, flexibility to managers to "ask" you to change from day to night shift at short notice with no reward, and a selling of leave.
With all that lot how can we possibly claim for shortened hours, better rosters or more leave ? On balance I intend to vote no but will wait for the explanation at my unit meeting.
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Farny Burrow
I have a feeling we are both being wound up by the same person.I don't understand the motivation or the agenda. I do think he's for real.
Makes you wonder who's point he's trying to get over though eh?
I for one am slightly suspicious.
Makes you wonder who's point he's trying to get over though eh?
I for one am slightly suspicious.
Watchdog Delta Hotel
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must agree with what most of what findo says
however i'm not that keen on the basic rise as it stands as well
the if's and but's of "liable to" etc etc are rubbish
i do also think though that voting on re-grading and the basic pay deal is divisive in the extreme (as is the re-grading) and as such we shouldn't accept management forcing such a course of action on our union
i will vote no
however i'm not that keen on the basic rise as it stands as well
the if's and but's of "liable to" etc etc are rubbish
i do also think though that voting on re-grading and the basic pay deal is divisive in the extreme (as is the re-grading) and as such we shouldn't accept management forcing such a course of action on our union
i will vote no
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Interesting that Prospect are going to do a "roadshow" at all the units, never done that before a ballot over pay! Could it be that they are getting a bit worried that there are a lot of unhappy members out there?
Who Knows they may even listen to what you all have to say but I doubt it.
Who Knows they may even listen to what you all have to say but I doubt it.
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I know I'm speaking from a band 5 unit - but please don't take this the wrong way.
I'd just be interested to know what members would consider to be a "reasonable pay offer" ie. one that would warrant a "yes" vote?
IMHO a rise of 8.7% over 2 years ain't brilliant but it is above RPI and therefore would be worth considering - add on the 0530 start issue and my vote would be balancing on a knife edge, so to speak, but still leaning towards the yes side.
Now I know, before you all start rushing in, that more would apply here - but again I ask, what is reasonable?
I'm pretty sure that as Caniplay.... stated earlier, if 8.7% was offered across the board it would probably get a majority yes vote.
And before the jokes start flying, yes I'd love 20% too
I'd just be interested to know what members would consider to be a "reasonable pay offer" ie. one that would warrant a "yes" vote?
IMHO a rise of 8.7% over 2 years ain't brilliant but it is above RPI and therefore would be worth considering - add on the 0530 start issue and my vote would be balancing on a knife edge, so to speak, but still leaning towards the yes side.
Now I know, before you all start rushing in, that more would apply here - but again I ask, what is reasonable?
I'm pretty sure that as Caniplay.... stated earlier, if 8.7% was offered across the board it would probably get a majority yes vote.
And before the jokes start flying, yes I'd love 20% too
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StillDark,
Yes an 8.7% rise across the board would be great, however what we are looking at here is a 6.6% rise over 2 years (and I don't beleive a word of Prospects reasoning for a 2 year deal).
Essentially what Prospect have succeeded in doing is what management have been trying to do for years and split Airports and Centres.
The regrading issue is a farce, non quantifioable movements not being included, would you at a band 5 unit be up in arms if 75000 of your annual movements weren't included in the grading calculation??
I'm sure that you all would. One thing you can be sure of is that we at the airports with these non quantifiable movements just won't work them (unless they are inbound to us) and we'll pile the extra workload onto the FIR controllers, and we can all see just how quantifiable these movements become.
Yes an 8.7% rise across the board would be great, however what we are looking at here is a 6.6% rise over 2 years (and I don't beleive a word of Prospects reasoning for a 2 year deal).
Essentially what Prospect have succeeded in doing is what management have been trying to do for years and split Airports and Centres.
The regrading issue is a farce, non quantifioable movements not being included, would you at a band 5 unit be up in arms if 75000 of your annual movements weren't included in the grading calculation??
I'm sure that you all would. One thing you can be sure of is that we at the airports with these non quantifiable movements just won't work them (unless they are inbound to us) and we'll pile the extra workload onto the FIR controllers, and we can all see just how quantifiable these movements become.
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707, you've hit the nail right on the head there.
All this in house arguing about the regrading is stupid.
Yes we all know the centres, LL, KK work harder and no we don't begrudge you the money.
But all this tit for tat "if you don't like the band 1,2,3... then come and work here" or the "sick of LL and lifestyle in SE then come and work here..." is having management laught their little cotton socks off.
We need to be UNITED on this issue. We all seem to agree that the PAY offer is under the circumstances a reasonable one, and the general consensus appears to be that a YES vote will follow on the PAY rise.
However, the issue that is dividing us all is that of grading, Prospect will be coming round with their little roadshow to try and persuade us all that it is a good thing and was the only way to go, and having read the stuff they sent out i can honestly say that I don't believe a word of it....
BTW Prospect, is PF too radical for you or do you belive that 7pm is a reasonable time to start a briefing with members on what is one of the most important issues we will have to deal with this year, I mean, do you expect the morning watch to come back in? The Afternoon watch to be able to release anybody to attend?(if you do it shows how little you appreciate our staffing problems), The night shift to come in 3 hours early????? This is typical of what this ???????UNION??????? thinks about regional airports, the centres get at least 2 days of meetings (MACC has exceptional circtumstances)
All this in house arguing about the regrading is stupid.
Yes we all know the centres, LL, KK work harder and no we don't begrudge you the money.
But all this tit for tat "if you don't like the band 1,2,3... then come and work here" or the "sick of LL and lifestyle in SE then come and work here..." is having management laught their little cotton socks off.
We need to be UNITED on this issue. We all seem to agree that the PAY offer is under the circumstances a reasonable one, and the general consensus appears to be that a YES vote will follow on the PAY rise.
However, the issue that is dividing us all is that of grading, Prospect will be coming round with their little roadshow to try and persuade us all that it is a good thing and was the only way to go, and having read the stuff they sent out i can honestly say that I don't believe a word of it....
BTW Prospect, is PF too radical for you or do you belive that 7pm is a reasonable time to start a briefing with members on what is one of the most important issues we will have to deal with this year, I mean, do you expect the morning watch to come back in? The Afternoon watch to be able to release anybody to attend?(if you do it shows how little you appreciate our staffing problems), The night shift to come in 3 hours early????? This is typical of what this ???????UNION??????? thinks about regional airports, the centres get at least 2 days of meetings (MACC has exceptional circtumstances)
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With madness,
The union reps are giving up their own time day after day,if it's all so important,why can't you give yours?.I am all for constructive criticism,but come on!!! Have you phoned Prospect to try and arrange another time?,they just might be able to help.
Try and go to the road shows,you will at least get an insight into the tough negotiations held on our behalf,and learn that without the union,things would have been a whole lot less satisfactory.
If people think this isn't a good deal,fair enough,but how reasonable would a management only led initiative have been on WPP?,with no TU input,don't forget that there are two sides to every story.
The union reps are giving up their own time day after day,if it's all so important,why can't you give yours?.I am all for constructive criticism,but come on!!! Have you phoned Prospect to try and arrange another time?,they just might be able to help.
Try and go to the road shows,you will at least get an insight into the tough negotiations held on our behalf,and learn that without the union,things would have been a whole lot less satisfactory.
If people think this isn't a good deal,fair enough,but how reasonable would a management only led initiative have been on WPP?,with no TU input,don't forget that there are two sides to every story.
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Fair comment nats, however, I find it very strange that PFs 1 briefing is at such an in-opportune time, I'm sure the prospect boys know shift start times so why not just after the morning shift. If I remember correctly LACCs 5 briefings are designed so as not to interrupt their busy spare time.
Mind you, there's more of them, can't upset them.
Small point, it is very good to hear a voice of reason in these tense times, but how about a voice from a non-band 5 unit????
I suppose this is when you tell me you are from PF then is it nats?
Mind you, there's more of them, can't upset them.
Small point, it is very good to hear a voice of reason in these tense times, but how about a voice from a non-band 5 unit????
I suppose this is when you tell me you are from PF then is it nats?
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Thanks Greebs, (we need to arrange a squash game)
Nats,
Our Rep did try and get the meeting timne changed but was told that it wasn't possible, he has tried everything, and it has gotten to the point where he feels that the BEC members are avoiding him, or as he put it "Increasingly more difficult to get hold of".
I will be at the meeting, I wouldn't miss it for the world and I have a lot to say on this matter, but PF is a small unit, the afternoon shift cannot release people to attend the briefing, so taht's 20% of members not able to attend straight away, the morning shift will all be knackered and should they be expected to travel 40 miles home at 2pm, to travel 40 miles back for 7pm and then home again before having to get up for yet another morning shift?
Should the night staff have to come in to work 3 hours early??? when a meeting arranged for early afternon would be far more convenient?
A meeting arranged for 3pm would be far more beneficial to staff, the PM shift would be able to release people (due to dayshift cover), the AM shift would have no problem attending, the night staff would have no problem attending and those on days off would find it easier to attend.
Nats,
Our Rep did try and get the meeting timne changed but was told that it wasn't possible, he has tried everything, and it has gotten to the point where he feels that the BEC members are avoiding him, or as he put it "Increasingly more difficult to get hold of".
I will be at the meeting, I wouldn't miss it for the world and I have a lot to say on this matter, but PF is a small unit, the afternoon shift cannot release people to attend the briefing, so taht's 20% of members not able to attend straight away, the morning shift will all be knackered and should they be expected to travel 40 miles home at 2pm, to travel 40 miles back for 7pm and then home again before having to get up for yet another morning shift?
Should the night staff have to come in to work 3 hours early??? when a meeting arranged for early afternon would be far more convenient?
A meeting arranged for 3pm would be far more beneficial to staff, the PM shift would be able to release people (due to dayshift cover), the AM shift would have no problem attending, the night staff would have no problem attending and those on days off would find it easier to attend.
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When this pay deal goes through, the top of the scale ATCO's at the band 5 units will be earning a minimum of £8,500 more per year than ATCO's at any other unit.
They will also be earnig at least £16,500 more than ATCO's at band 3, and below, units.
How long before ATCO's at lower band units find other jobs because they cannot get out to the band 5 units.
How long before NATS give up the majority of the airfields, I think I would give it 5 years.
I said when this pay deal goes through because I cannot see any ATCO's in band 5 voting no, I think that will probable give the vote management wants.
I hope that prospect will give a breakdown of the voting and possibly make note of the way units other than band 5 voted, but of course by then it will be to late.
Just out of interest what units do the ATCO negotiators work at?
They will also be earnig at least £16,500 more than ATCO's at band 3, and below, units.
How long before ATCO's at lower band units find other jobs because they cannot get out to the band 5 units.
How long before NATS give up the majority of the airfields, I think I would give it 5 years.
I said when this pay deal goes through because I cannot see any ATCO's in band 5 voting no, I think that will probable give the vote management wants.
I hope that prospect will give a breakdown of the voting and possibly make note of the way units other than band 5 voted, but of course by then it will be to late.
Just out of interest what units do the ATCO negotiators work at?
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Dannaloy
For your info CANIPLAY would have to travel about 60 miles if he wanted to go to a Scottish briefing; however, why should he? Do you not think we've been marginalised enough? He'd also have to obtain a security pass and all the nause that entails.
Mind you, if you're from LACC and miss any of your 5 briefings you could always pop down the road and join in with a briefing with your colleagues at Southampton or Farnborough; or if your still at TC, pop down to Farnborough or Luton, with your attitude I'm sure they'd welcome you warmly.
For your info CANIPLAY would have to travel about 60 miles if he wanted to go to a Scottish briefing; however, why should he? Do you not think we've been marginalised enough? He'd also have to obtain a security pass and all the nause that entails.
Mind you, if you're from LACC and miss any of your 5 briefings you could always pop down the road and join in with a briefing with your colleagues at Southampton or Farnborough; or if your still at TC, pop down to Farnborough or Luton, with your attitude I'm sure they'd welcome you warmly.
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250
And your briefing was????? Oh, yes during working hours at LACC!!!
Do the reps get TOIL for doing the presentations? Are they all built around their shift pattern?
By the way TOIL, that stands for Time Off In Lieu; it's what the poorer ATCOs at the lower end of the ATCO scales gets after working overtime.
Money goes to money
And your briefing was????? Oh, yes during working hours at LACC!!!
Do the reps get TOIL for doing the presentations? Are they all built around their shift pattern?
By the way TOIL, that stands for Time Off In Lieu; it's what the poorer ATCOs at the lower end of the ATCO scales gets after working overtime.
Money goes to money