NATS Pay/WP
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Costa del Hampshire
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Beepbeep -
Bloody hell !! Another "fair play" (non-ATCO?) voice from the wilderness! And do I also perceive a little bit of inter-ATCO niggle creeping in on this and other associated threads?
Equal percentage rise across all ATC grades/jobs would have resolved this - nobody would feel cheated. I've said it once before, and I'll say it again - no friends where money is concerned.
Not even between ATCOs!! (especially band 5's and everybody else)
ha ha !!
Bloody hell !! Another "fair play" (non-ATCO?) voice from the wilderness! And do I also perceive a little bit of inter-ATCO niggle creeping in on this and other associated threads?
Equal percentage rise across all ATC grades/jobs would have resolved this - nobody would feel cheated. I've said it once before, and I'll say it again - no friends where money is concerned.
Not even between ATCOs!! (especially band 5's and everybody else)
ha ha !!
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
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Supply and demand?
Do we really need all the ATCOs?
Do we have the beds for them?
Is the TV room big enough for them?
Fact is NATS needs all it's other grades just as much as it needs ATCOs but it expects them to be awake and at their desks during conditioned hours.
Do we really need all the ATCOs?
Do we have the beds for them?
Is the TV room big enough for them?
Fact is NATS needs all it's other grades just as much as it needs ATCOs but it expects them to be awake and at their desks during conditioned hours.
Join Date: Nov 1999
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Dear 250 Knots,
I have heard the "We are paying the top scales more in order that you all get more" argument probabley as often as you have however that does not alter the fact that the gap 'twix 2s and 3s just keeps on getting bigger.
It is very easy for you as a 2 (which I presume you are) to tell me I have to, once again, look on in awe as my colleagues pay jumps up. Now try being me, paying the same union dues as you, having my workload increase, having my T&Cs attacked and being told if I want to have may pay keep up with other people in NATS then I must change my life and tell me that you would consider that fair.
You wouldn't. If you are honest you know you wouldn't.
You can tell me to move, but that is to miss the point. I pay into my union but, as far as I and others like me can see Prospect isn't representing me to the same degree as it does you.
I have heard the "We are paying the top scales more in order that you all get more" argument probabley as often as you have however that does not alter the fact that the gap 'twix 2s and 3s just keeps on getting bigger.
It is very easy for you as a 2 (which I presume you are) to tell me I have to, once again, look on in awe as my colleagues pay jumps up. Now try being me, paying the same union dues as you, having my workload increase, having my T&Cs attacked and being told if I want to have may pay keep up with other people in NATS then I must change my life and tell me that you would consider that fair.
You wouldn't. If you are honest you know you wouldn't.
You can tell me to move, but that is to miss the point. I pay into my union but, as far as I and others like me can see Prospect isn't representing me to the same degree as it does you.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Destination 22
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radar707
I have to agree - why should a single valid controller be deemed more busy/worth more than a dual valid (or more if you go further north - IZB) controller.
It should be the overall input/value/complexity/callitwhat you want of the unit that counts to the regrading (including outside CAS) - and if that means we have 10 bands then so be it - but make it a fair comparison (spelling??)
I have no problem with the pay deal on a "cost of living" basis.
The Unit Regrading I think should be re-thought.
No doubting that there are some units (christ we could get down to individual sectors if we want) which are more complex than others - and I think that most people would agree that the centres on a whole are busier (on a whole) than airports. Having worked at both I think I can comment fairly on this.
However I think the real problem lies in the airport gradings.
As an aside...
it was mentioned earlier that we all used to be ATCO IIs - well we bit that bullet and changed (for the most) - Why can't we change again to ATCO I - V??
Those that are happy at the less complex units can stay - as long as those guys (and gals) that want to move are given the opportunity to do so - and within a given time scale.
Sorry its taken so long for the rant.
Up Up And Awaaaayyyy
(Cue abuse from various quarters)
P.S Lets stop getting personal about people/units/training - it doesn't achieve anything - we are still one union - and if you have a voice you can still use it constructively.
I have to agree - why should a single valid controller be deemed more busy/worth more than a dual valid (or more if you go further north - IZB) controller.
It should be the overall input/value/complexity/callitwhat you want of the unit that counts to the regrading (including outside CAS) - and if that means we have 10 bands then so be it - but make it a fair comparison (spelling??)
I have no problem with the pay deal on a "cost of living" basis.
The Unit Regrading I think should be re-thought.
No doubting that there are some units (christ we could get down to individual sectors if we want) which are more complex than others - and I think that most people would agree that the centres on a whole are busier (on a whole) than airports. Having worked at both I think I can comment fairly on this.
However I think the real problem lies in the airport gradings.
As an aside...
it was mentioned earlier that we all used to be ATCO IIs - well we bit that bullet and changed (for the most) - Why can't we change again to ATCO I - V??
Those that are happy at the less complex units can stay - as long as those guys (and gals) that want to move are given the opportunity to do so - and within a given time scale.
Sorry its taken so long for the rant.
Up Up And Awaaaayyyy
(Cue abuse from various quarters)
P.S Lets stop getting personal about people/units/training - it doesn't achieve anything - we are still one union - and if you have a voice you can still use it constructively.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
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Beep.
Methinks you are an engineer of some description. I understand why you may be disgruntled but having a poke at ATC staff this way is not effective.
It all comes down to market forces and management know it. Engineers are plentiful and ATCO's are not. ATCO/ATSA strikes = mayhem. Engineers / support staff / admin strike = minor annoyance.
If you are at LTCC have a go at getting plugged in in TC. That may change your mind!
Methinks you are an engineer of some description. I understand why you may be disgruntled but having a poke at ATC staff this way is not effective.
It all comes down to market forces and management know it. Engineers are plentiful and ATCO's are not. ATCO/ATSA strikes = mayhem. Engineers / support staff / admin strike = minor annoyance.
If you are at LTCC have a go at getting plugged in in TC. That may change your mind!
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Southampton
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"Supply and demand?
Do we really need all the ATCOs?"
Yes, that is why NATS offer bigger pay rises to ATCOs and are recruiting over 100 a year
"Do we have the beds for them?"
Just, thank you for asking.
"Is the TV room big enough for them?"
Yes, thank you again, but we could do with a bigger TV and more Channels.
"Fact is NATS needs all it's other grades just as much as it needs ATCOs...."
Fact is NATS is reducing the head count in all grades except ATCOs.
"....but it expects them to be awake and at their desks during conditioned hours."
Is the busiest time of your working day around 4am?
Do we really need all the ATCOs?"
Yes, that is why NATS offer bigger pay rises to ATCOs and are recruiting over 100 a year
"Do we have the beds for them?"
Just, thank you for asking.
"Is the TV room big enough for them?"
Yes, thank you again, but we could do with a bigger TV and more Channels.
"Fact is NATS needs all it's other grades just as much as it needs ATCOs...."
Fact is NATS is reducing the head count in all grades except ATCOs.
"....but it expects them to be awake and at their desks during conditioned hours."
Is the busiest time of your working day around 4am?
Thread Starter
Lon More...once again I ask, where did you get that HUGE chip that is on your shoulder ?? Or is it both shoulders and your back ?? Or perhaps it's now enveloping you completely ??
Hmmmmmm......Lone More, More than just an ATCO ? Well yes, I could think of a few choice words to add to that.
And instead of replying, let's take this private, eh ? Perhaps we could meet ? I would really enjoy that !!
Hmmmmmm......Lone More, More than just an ATCO ? Well yes, I could think of a few choice words to add to that.
And instead of replying, let's take this private, eh ? Perhaps we could meet ? I would really enjoy that !!
Join Date: Dec 2003
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I must say I'm fairly satisfied with the basic pay increase. I'll be voting yes.
I'm pleased that management stuck to the commitment to make the same basic offer to all NATS staff. This ensures that all grades and levels are given equal respect for the job they do and the relative cost of living their lives.
I'm a non-ATCO and personally wish all ATCOs well in getting whatever you can for changes in WP. It doesn't affect me and I'm sure whatever remuneration received will have a pound of flesh in the bargain. If it were my grades re-negotiating something and loooking for money I wouldn't expect ATCOs to want in on it, as it's nothing to do with them.
Just one small point to something said earlier.. quoting from memory so forgive any minor wording errors.. "ATCOs strike = chaos, ENG/Admin strike = minor hassle" Well I hope you'd still see it as a minor hassle if the admin staff went on strike resulting in a lack of overtime, AAVA, OJTI... oh and salary payments.
Personally I'd like to keep getting paid.
I'm pleased that management stuck to the commitment to make the same basic offer to all NATS staff. This ensures that all grades and levels are given equal respect for the job they do and the relative cost of living their lives.
I'm a non-ATCO and personally wish all ATCOs well in getting whatever you can for changes in WP. It doesn't affect me and I'm sure whatever remuneration received will have a pound of flesh in the bargain. If it were my grades re-negotiating something and loooking for money I wouldn't expect ATCOs to want in on it, as it's nothing to do with them.
Just one small point to something said earlier.. quoting from memory so forgive any minor wording errors.. "ATCOs strike = chaos, ENG/Admin strike = minor hassle" Well I hope you'd still see it as a minor hassle if the admin staff went on strike resulting in a lack of overtime, AAVA, OJTI... oh and salary payments.
Personally I'd like to keep getting paid.
Join Date: Feb 2000
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Somewhere in all this waffle was the theory that we were addressing the shortages by increasing the pay.
The current situation is that MACC is expected to be worst off for ATCOs over the next 3 to 5 years. How does the award of a bigger rise to HQ staff and the rest address this shortage ?
The current situation is that MACC is expected to be worst off for ATCOs over the next 3 to 5 years. How does the award of a bigger rise to HQ staff and the rest address this shortage ?
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Findo,
I personally am not aware of the figures, however, if that is the case, I'm sure MACC controllers will be more than happy to do the AAVA's as we currently are at LACC. Then we can have a go on PPRUNE about how they get all the OT
Also, a question for the former ATCO 2 units that re-graded to ATCO 3. When you were re-graded, did NATS offer either a move to an ATCO 2 unit in the appropriate region, or a form of compensation for those who wished to stay?
I personally am not aware of the figures, however, if that is the case, I'm sure MACC controllers will be more than happy to do the AAVA's as we currently are at LACC. Then we can have a go on PPRUNE about how they get all the OT
Also, a question for the former ATCO 2 units that re-graded to ATCO 3. When you were re-graded, did NATS offer either a move to an ATCO 2 unit in the appropriate region, or a form of compensation for those who wished to stay?
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Certainly not in the same way.
Although there are plenty of good ATSA's around, at our unit (LACC), the job has become considerably less involved than it was at West Drayton and it is well known that the management would have minimal numbers of ATSA's if they could.
Although there are plenty of good ATSA's around, at our unit (LACC), the job has become considerably less involved than it was at West Drayton and it is well known that the management would have minimal numbers of ATSA's if they could.
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Prospect be warned, if you allow this to go to a ballot with BEC recommendation then you are going to find yourselves with a whole load of ATCO's less in your membership figures.
I used to be a firm believer in the union ethic, everyone standing together to fight for what is right and fair in the workplace.
How wrong I was.
This whole unit regrading fiasco is a mess and is just creating divisions amongst staff.
Who on earth thinks that someone who holds 2 validations, working traffic into and out of 2 airports in a busy TMA, providing a service to every man and his dog wanting a service outside that bit of CAS, plus dealing with all the inherent problems of RIS RAS aginst Military traffic and God Knows what else flying around in Bandit country, can be worth a whole load less than someone who holds a single tower validation at SS, it's hardly a complicated unit.
LL, KK yes, they deserve every penny and a whole lot more besides. As for CATC yet another way of rewarding people for failure, how many instructors on the radar course have been rewarded for failing by getting posted to CATC
I would love to go and teach at CATC, but I can't be released from my unit for God knows how long
A guy at my unit wanted to go to LL sailed throught the asessment, got a start date and then someone off his course at LL whinged because my "experienced, valid" colleague would be getting more money
I should have resigned from the union a few years ago after the pay negotiations fiasco then, but I was persuaded by my rep that the union was there to represent MY interests as a controller at a regional airport.
How wrong he was, funny thing now is that if this does go through then I've a feeling that my unit rep will resign from the union and maybe even a few more in Scotland, Ireland and Wales.
I used to be a firm believer in the union ethic, everyone standing together to fight for what is right and fair in the workplace.
How wrong I was.
This whole unit regrading fiasco is a mess and is just creating divisions amongst staff.
Who on earth thinks that someone who holds 2 validations, working traffic into and out of 2 airports in a busy TMA, providing a service to every man and his dog wanting a service outside that bit of CAS, plus dealing with all the inherent problems of RIS RAS aginst Military traffic and God Knows what else flying around in Bandit country, can be worth a whole load less than someone who holds a single tower validation at SS, it's hardly a complicated unit.
LL, KK yes, they deserve every penny and a whole lot more besides. As for CATC yet another way of rewarding people for failure, how many instructors on the radar course have been rewarded for failing by getting posted to CATC
I would love to go and teach at CATC, but I can't be released from my unit for God knows how long
A guy at my unit wanted to go to LL sailed throught the asessment, got a start date and then someone off his course at LL whinged because my "experienced, valid" colleague would be getting more money
I should have resigned from the union a few years ago after the pay negotiations fiasco then, but I was persuaded by my rep that the union was there to represent MY interests as a controller at a regional airport.
How wrong he was, funny thing now is that if this does go through then I've a feeling that my unit rep will resign from the union and maybe even a few more in Scotland, Ireland and Wales.
More than just an ATCO
Join Date: Jul 1999
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Nogbad why should we take this private? You're the one tossing your teddy out the pram.
You chose to start throwing the insults. I refer you to another thread on the subject Jet Blast. Most of them could be applied to you and save me typing.
No chips on my shoulder: Ex CAA (shows how long ago) and now retired Area Supervisor.
BTW I posted my salary on a previous thread last year and can't be bothered to waste time or bandwidth repeating myself.
You express a wish to resort to violence, the last refuge of the mediocre; unfortunately I do not normally injure mental deficients but would be happy to make an exception in your case.
Further rants from yourself will be ignored until you grow up, although undoubtedly someone else will take exception to your obnoxious personality and terminate it long before that happens.
You chose to start throwing the insults. I refer you to another thread on the subject Jet Blast. Most of them could be applied to you and save me typing.
No chips on my shoulder: Ex CAA (shows how long ago) and now retired Area Supervisor.
BTW I posted my salary on a previous thread last year and can't be bothered to waste time or bandwidth repeating myself.
You express a wish to resort to violence, the last refuge of the mediocre; unfortunately I do not normally injure mental deficients but would be happy to make an exception in your case.
Further rants from yourself will be ignored until you grow up, although undoubtedly someone else will take exception to your obnoxious personality and terminate it long before that happens.
Join Date: Nov 1999
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"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent", to quote from FOUNDATION by Isaac Asimov.
Nothing to do with pay, but mildly more interesting than all this bickering.
Nothing to do with pay, but mildly more interesting than all this bickering.
