NATS Pay/WP

[halo]

Well how about if some of you at your units come and train in the tower at Heathrow??

We are desperately short of people and will continue to be for a very long time..... Sadly, bar one or two, nobody at any other airfield units want to come to Heathrow.... Would somebody please tell us why?? If it takes a crap load of money to get people to think differently about coming to the unit then thats what it takes!! If you aren't willing to come and give it a shot then please keep your mouths shut!!

In addition to this NATS is now a commercial business, and just like all the other commercial businesses they will pump money into the areas that produce the greatest return for them, and unfortunately for other units that means LACC, TC and EGLL. Nobody is disputing the fact that every single NATS unit has its own complexity, traffic levels, airspace issues, etc, but for a change NATS has decided to look at the units that produce the biggest financial return first, which will hopefully lead to all other unit issues being dealt with. We can all sympathise with Farnborough and their high radar workload, but what it comes down to is the fact that most of the people who use that service don't actually pay for it!!

[Connex]

niteflite01 -

thanks for the info - still nothing announced ATSA-wise at my Unit as of 2200 tonight.

[Greebson]

Halo
nice report well presented (if not with a slightly I'm better than you tinge). But get your head out of your a@@e and look around and you'll find a lot of other units are desperately short of staff too.
You sound like just the sort of work colleague/team player that management are trying to get there claws into.

[Arkady]

Greebson, fair point.

This new structure would suggest that NATS wishes to address the staff shortages at LTCC, LACC and EGLL by encouraging people to move from other units while, presumably, sending more ab-initios to the lower banded stations.

Will it work? If the new structure is adopted will those of you working in a Band 4 unit or below consider a move to a Band 5 unit?

[flowman]

Halo
I applied to go to EGLL from a regional airport. After 10 years of applying and waiting I finally got my posting to Heathrow.
Imagine missing 10 years of housing inflation in London and then trying to find somewhere to live.
No they will not apply a "crap load of money", no they would not help any more than if I had moved from West Drayton, no they do not give a sh!t about causing financial hardship.
For all my ATC career I genuinely wanted to work at your unit (still do), but NATS management made it impossible.
Bunch of unts.
Don't for one minute think that more pay for the EGLL/EGTT guys is to attract people from other units, because it isn't, and it doesn't. It is simply a continuation of the divide and rule tactics that they have been using for years. Screw the regional guys, they don't matter- save some money there and give it to the area boys to keep them happy(?).
A bit naive Halo, but keep up the good work. It's a labour of love!

[intentionally blank]

To attract staff to a particular unit you pay lump sums. This is infinitly flexible and will certainly solve your problem. Unless you are a TU rep and you want a pay rise without moving.

This is not about improving mobility but about getting pay rises for Southerners.

LEST WE FORGET.

It was not too long ago that we were all ATCO 2s. 2s already get up to a third more than 3s. HOW MUCH MORE DO YOU WANT, YOU MONEY GRABBING TW*TS?

Come on! Which of you is going to try and justify getting more than double the pay rise I'll get?

As for EGLL. I won't come because I don't like London. Secondly I have a life up here, partner with career too etc... Cash isn't the issue.

But short of staff?
So how come you manage to get a sleep on every other night shift? You do still roster three on nights for one position don't you??? Seems to me you aren't short staffed just have a F*ckwit doing your roster.

New pay agreement is just money for the boys. The union has managed to replce management as Airports enemy number 1. Well done, at least when I resign from Prospect I'll make a few hundred quid every year.

[Geffen]

intentionally blank,
3 on the nights is necessary when we have two positions open until at least 11pm and then open two in the morning from 6am, now how exactly does two atcos run a nightshift, it don't work is a pain and then you need a supervisor for all the desk work, three is what is needed either end, yeah we don't have any real traffic through the night but either end can be real busy.

[intentionally blank]

Geffen,

You see Geffen I don't care you sleep all night. Good for you!! But then you don't care I work on my night shifts. Nor do you care tha i get no EGs and thus work longer hours than you. But most importantly this "Clear and Transparent Strucures formula" doesn't take into account the fact that you get to spend a third of your shifts in or near a bed.

To fix this iniquity what you do is bring an ATCO in at 6 and keep another later until 11. Go on, justify your pay rise.


I now hope that they do that (if this rise goes through) just to make you work as many hours as we do. Except knowing how skilled our negotiating team are we will certainly find that 0530 starts appear (with extra credits for the hours worked) at the Band 5 units (not CATC or HQ) and they have been rewarded for them. Then they will start to appear at the Band 1 units only we won't have been paid for them.



This is always the outcome of supporting divisive solutions.

And what will happen in 4 years time when it is discovered that this solution to lack of mobility hasn't solved anything?

I Know another pay rise for the BEC. Sorry Band 4 & 5 units.

Anyway Geffen no problems with anything else i said then???

[Geffen]

Why is justification required? We all (atco's everywhere) work hard and have alot of responsibility. There needs to be some difference in the grading of units, personally I have never understood why someone at Southampton(for example) is on the same scale and pay as those at Glasgow(for example) But they were/are. Nothing is perfect.

As for the nightshift we have someone stay until 11 as contingency if more positions are needed to be kept open. And the morning watch manager comes in at 6, again if needed due staff shortages.

hey just another pt. We all get paid damn good salaries whatever unit you work at, we get good holidays and lots of time off. We shouldn't knock it when we have it so good.

[Jerricho]

Yawn...............that's very constructive of you Intentionally Blank. I'm sure you you wouldn't have a problem what so ever in addressing "a Southerner" as a money grabbing ****" face to face. Give yourself a pat on the back for providing everybody who isn't a NATS employee a good laugh, especially when they see this sort of in house bickering and school yard name calling.

As for EGLL. I won't come because I don't like London. Secondly I have a life up here, partner with career too etc... Cash isn't the issue.

And then you go and contradict yourself. Cash isn't an issue you say. What little credibility you attempted to achieve with your argument has very quickly evaporated.

[SonicTPA]

Now that this banding is coming in, it is suppsed to be easier to move to a new unit in order to go up a band.

There might be room at the top at EGLL (been there, done that) but lets be honest - just how many people from the bottom rung of the ladder would be able to work their way up. It would take ages, and who would fill in the gaps at the bottom.

Will all college trainees go only to Band 1 units. Will they have a choice? Is it fair if one goes to LL and one goes to LF, when neither chose to go to either of those units.

Lets say all Atco 3's on the bottom band now ask to go to a higher banded unit. It's not going to happen. We already have people trying to get out, and they're not being allowed. So it can only get worse...

Sonic

Ps, as for more controllers at LL - improve your training, and you won't chop 12 trainees in one year. There was a vast difference in training across the watches, which resulted in some people validating and being watched while valid, while more competent people were chopped.

[AREA52]

It would appear from reading this thread that people are forgetting that although some units gain more than others, everyone gains something! The whole idea of the structure is to provide differentials between units, so that people can make choices about whether or not they wish to work at a busy or quieter unit, or whether they are happy working and living where they currently are. That should be their choice!

In the initial stages, this may prove difficult until the numbers start to build up at the lower end of the scale. Some people may wish to go to a slightly lower banded unit which could allow someone else to move up however.

It has to be said that some grading issues should be addressed, namely CATC which should in reality not be a band 5 unit. However, NATS are unable to recruit a suitable number of instructors and therefore need to somehow try to attract more people, backward though it may seem that they are rewarded by quicker progression than any other operational unit (LACC,LTCC &EGLL included, and they get NOS

However, don't forget that anyone with the required experience can apply and it may also prove an option if you no longer feel able to perform operationally or have a medical condition which prohibits live duties. (As a number of the current instructors prove)

Some units may feel they have been hard done by, but are their rosters or conditions changing as a result of this deal? In effect, you still increase your basic pay for no change, so if you are not happy now, you should have been less happy before this offer?

Some ATCO3 units are also gaining ground here, so don't be too quick to throw stones at the larger units.

IB - the BEC consists of representatives from all over the country, so I suggest you take up any issues you have with your relevant BEC rep who should have been representing their members views accordingly.

For the band 1-4 units, I would suggest take the 2-6% extra for what you already do and if you really want more, apply for a move to a higher banded unit, or find some changes in your WP agreements which saves NATS delays or money in the longer term!

[Captain Spunkfarter]

Sonic TPA

as for more controllers at LL - improve your training, and you won't chop 12 trainees in one year

In 2003, only 2 trainees failed at Heathrow.

In 2003, 7 trainees validated at Heathrow.

There are 2 validation boards expected before the end of March.

Just wanted to keep you updated.

[250 kts]

I don't remember too many people out in the regions complaining when they got a pay rise fro the opening of Swanwick-and what did they have to do-the square root of f**k all!!

You guys want the cash then it is now here and available so come on down-we await you with open arms.

There will always be people who want what others have got but let's face it this is a deal which gives ALL ATCOs a significant rise.

Surely it is obvious to all that a major element of this deal is paid for by WP changes most of which will not be applicable at most units-so why should all of the money be equally distributed? For example why should a unit get a vote knowing that 0530 starts will never affect them and know that they will get exactly the same pay rise? I know that if I was at band 1 unit I would vote unquestioningly for the 0530 starts knowing I would not have to do them and take the money.

Units have known for a while now the basics of the restructuring and I believe the reps voted to allow the BEC to continue at the conference in November. In my opinion that is when the concerns should have been raised.

[radar707]

250kts,

The Airports staff have had their WP changed year on year for th elast 10 years, abnd what did they get for it, the square root of F**k All.

I don't have a problem with the regrading providing it is done properly, yes the LL boys and Girls deserve more, but who has the right to say that a dual rated controller at Glasgow or Edinburgh who works bllody hard in both positions isn't worth as much as a tower only at Stansted????

As an example at EGPF we are contracted to man Tower, GMC, Approach, Approch Radar and Radar Director.

The Approach and Approach radar functions are frequently combined to release staff to do Director, or the whole lot is combine into Approach Radar.

We could quite easily impose flow restrictions on a daily basis into Glasgow because we are not manning the positions we are supposed to man and therefore there are staffing issues.

How would management feel about the daily reports showing flow restrictions into Glasgow / Edinburgh due staffing issues.

We work our cojones off to push the traffic as much as anybody else in NATS, I might not have the complexities of LL Ground to deal with, but a busy single runway operation dealing with all the IFR traffic, coupled with all the low hours PPL and complexities of airspace (both controlled and uncontrolled) is as challenging as anything at any other unit.

The way round this is to increse the London weighting to an acceptable amount that will encourage people to move to LL etc.

All that this is going to do is create divisions amongst NATS staff at Airports, perhaps this is what management are seeking to do, Divide And Conquer.

[1261]

For the record, Edinburgh mans only for two positions on approach - radar and director. Approach and radar have been permanently combined for at least the last four years (the whole time I worked there).

[Captain Spunkfarter]

I work at Heathrow and I'm chuffed at the pay offer! I shall be voting 'Yes'.

[j17]

captainspunkfarter


I like your attitude " I am alright Jack stuff the rest of you"

[250 kts]

Radar 707,

Yeah I realise that the airports have already been skinned to the bone-but how many of the ATCO3s have volunteered to go the busier units because of the staffing/T&Cs at the regionals-VERY FEW.

As far as I am aware the instigators of the re-structure visited EVERY NATS unit and assessed the workload/complexity issues in conjunction with the staff and the units then gained a score(which incidentally leaves most if not all the units in the same place as now relative to each other).

You use PF as an example of positions to be staffed-but how often are these postions actually fully split?-rarely I suspect. Yes there are 5 tasks but is that so unusual?

I agree all units are complex in their own way but this is on;y the first stage of getting additional money into the pockets of ALL ATCOs. Let's get it there first and then build on it from here. 8-14% is good in any part of aviation at present so let's not risk blowing it before we even have it.

[beepbeep]

It's not right or fair that once again ATCOs are getting a bigger slice of the pie than the rest of NATS.

All the other NATS's grades work hard for the company and the money should be shared out equally.

Sadly once again we have been let down by NATS management and the union.