Controllers being paid to go to EGLL
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Controllers being paid to go to EGLL
Hi,
There are rumours flying around NATS about the company devising a sheme at the moment where controllers are going to be offered lump sums to go and work at Heathrow Tower ?
It's also rumoured that some controllers already there are going to be offered some sort of retention bonus to stay ?
Does anyone know, FOR FACT(please!!), if this is true ?
Ta.
There are rumours flying around NATS about the company devising a sheme at the moment where controllers are going to be offered lump sums to go and work at Heathrow Tower ?
It's also rumoured that some controllers already there are going to be offered some sort of retention bonus to stay ?
Does anyone know, FOR FACT(please!!), if this is true ?
Ta.
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Firstly, NATS could NEVER devise such a scheme, they don't have any idea of how to solve stafffing shortages or tempting people to move from their cozy lives around the country. All the ideas for restructuring have come from Prospect.
Secondly, if they did offer bucks to LL, then the whole of the LTCC would walk out or the landing rate from APC would drop like a stone and the revenue to pay for it would disappear!
This rumour was started as a kite-flying exercise; just speak to your Prospect rep over the next few weeks and read the notices.
Secondly, if they did offer bucks to LL, then the whole of the LTCC would walk out or the landing rate from APC would drop like a stone and the revenue to pay for it would disappear!
This rumour was started as a kite-flying exercise; just speak to your Prospect rep over the next few weeks and read the notices.
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Didn't Highlands and Islands do a similar thing (offering incentives) in the past to recruit people there?
If nothing is done about Heathrow, then I reckon there's going to be quite a few joining Jerricho et al in the exodus West.
Or if LL was offered 'big bucks', would not LTCC then at the next pay deal use it as leverage to get their own 'big bucks'?
Just a thought.
If nothing is done about Heathrow, then I reckon there's going to be quite a few joining Jerricho et al in the exodus West.
Or if LL was offered 'big bucks', would not LTCC then at the next pay deal use it as leverage to get their own 'big bucks'?
Just a thought.
Ohcirrej
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Ahhhhhh..............Point 7's crusade rears it's ugly head again!
Just for something different, let's start the "we move more traffic so we should get paid more vs the out airspace is so complex so we should get paid more" argument. Haven't seen it here for ages!
Just for something different, let's start the "we move more traffic so we should get paid more vs the out airspace is so complex so we should get paid more" argument. Haven't seen it here for ages!
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Far be it from me to disagree with you, Jerricho, but it's more a case of 'we need to attract people to Heathrow, and give them incentives to stay', rather than 'we're busier than you' thing. Something needs to be done. Money could be part of, or all of the solution, or maybe the solution won't feature money, who knows? That there needs to be a solution is not in doubt.
Ohcirrej
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Sorry Gonze, I was being a little childish again.
The whole NATS staffing thing (not just EGLL) is in a bit of a mess. And with the new East trial, LTCC is going to feel it. Our MACC brothers are baying for blood. Somebody referred to rats and a sinking something the other day.....................
The whole NATS staffing thing (not just EGLL) is in a bit of a mess. And with the new East trial, LTCC is going to feel it. Our MACC brothers are baying for blood. Somebody referred to rats and a sinking something the other day.....................
in mine anyway! You, childish? Don't believe it!!!!!!!!!!
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Surely the market should decide - if NATS don't pay then folk move away. Couldn't you put in a few webcams and do LHR from the West Country 
cheaper wages cheaper housing.
HIAL had to up the wage rates because they had fallen 30% behind ATCO3s and were losing valid controllers to pastures new.
Anyway - I think we should start charging Easyjet £350 for each radar vector after them bumping the Scotland - Holland flights from £50 to £350 over 30 minutes after the Euro2004 qualifiers were announced
(+£300 per seat = £40000 for one flight)
Supply and demand they say ? If it's OK for them to exploit the situation, why's it not OK for us to charge them an extra £40000 for slots at 8am ?
cheaper wages cheaper housing.HIAL had to up the wage rates because they had fallen 30% behind ATCO3s and were losing valid controllers to pastures new.
Anyway - I think we should start charging Easyjet £350 for each radar vector after them bumping the Scotland - Holland flights from £50 to £350 over 30 minutes after the Euro2004 qualifiers were announced
(+£300 per seat = £40000 for one flight)Supply and demand they say ? If it's OK for them to exploit the situation, why's it not OK for us to charge them an extra £40000 for slots at 8am ?
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Hey Jerricho;
What's wrong with basing pay on how many aircraft movements you have as well as your complexity??? Works great for us, well most of the time <G>...
regards
Scott
What's wrong with basing pay on how many aircraft movements you have as well as your complexity??? Works great for us, well most of the time <G>...
regards
Scott
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Hey Scott,
Absolutely nothing wrong with it. I'm a major advocate of the way you guys structure your pay!!!! (didn't I send you a PM about your pay-scales??). IMHO, if NATS implemented a scheme like this, some of the busier units would have people tripping over each other to get there! But, we all know that controllers don't like to see one of their co-workers get something that they themselves aren't getting. This is where the old slinging match begins.
Infact, I'm such a big fan, that's why I'm off to Canada! What's the OFP for Winnipeg again???
Absolutely nothing wrong with it. I'm a major advocate of the way you guys structure your pay!!!! (didn't I send you a PM about your pay-scales??). IMHO, if NATS implemented a scheme like this, some of the busier units would have people tripping over each other to get there! But, we all know that controllers don't like to see one of their co-workers get something that they themselves aren't getting. This is where the old slinging match begins.
Infact, I'm such a big fan, that's why I'm off to Canada! What's the OFP for Winnipeg again???
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Along the lines of what Jerricho says, all atcos have a problem with any pay increase that others get. They hate to see someone else getting more than them. The idea of paying LL more will more than likely mean that the rest of NATS can be pulled up in pay too, however this is likely to cause so much friction that it might not happen.
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Heathrow tower controllers already get paid 15000 quid more than most other airport towers - and the cost of living is the same as for other Nats units in the southeast. In fact, a lot of the controllers live nearer to other Nats units, than to Heathrow.
So surely the lure of extra money isn't enough - there'll have to be something else...
But as has been said, there's the "I'm outside CAS and take more risks" and "I have more movements" and "Mine is more complex" arguments to get round. If one persons pay goes up, others will want more too.
And remember, airport movements are not necessarily a good pointer as to how busy a unit is - Cardiff have more area movements, and then Farnborough has the busiest Lars in the country...
It's a difficult situation to resolve. At the moment, I just want to make sure that we get a decent pay rise next year...
Sonic
So surely the lure of extra money isn't enough - there'll have to be something else...
But as has been said, there's the "I'm outside CAS and take more risks" and "I have more movements" and "Mine is more complex" arguments to get round. If one persons pay goes up, others will want more too.
And remember, airport movements are not necessarily a good pointer as to how busy a unit is - Cardiff have more area movements, and then Farnborough has the busiest Lars in the country...
It's a difficult situation to resolve. At the moment, I just want to make sure that we get a decent pay rise next year...
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Maybe it's a management issue then. Get decent managers in and it may just encourage more people to stay. It can't just be financial or we'd be seeing the same issues 3 miles up the road.
Let's all just see what the long waited for restructuring may bring and then decide what to do rather than another knee-jerk reaction. And anyway any payment for retention would mean just that-your chances of ever getting out would be greatly reduced.
Let's all just see what the long waited for restructuring may bring and then decide what to do rather than another knee-jerk reaction. And anyway any payment for retention would mean just that-your chances of ever getting out would be greatly reduced.
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More money!!
For want of sticking my oar in - if EGLL has a retention problem, then a monetary retention scheme may be the answer - this will be totally removed from the "I'm busier/more complex than you" argument.
Why this company does not have a retention clause in the contract anyways is beyond me - they spend so much money and OJTIs spend so much valuable time training people, some sort of clause to say "you will work for x years on completion of training" should be included.
I know that EGLL still send someone to have lunch with college students prior to completion of each Approach course (elitist?) so surely if any student had a violent objection to working at LL then they should voice it then or otherwise put up with the known conditions.
To put the cat amongst the pigeons tho' - EGLL is wholly in CAS, has two runways, 1 for take off, 1 for landing, no circuits, extremely rare helo flights..... how hard is it to say "cleared to land" or "cleared for take off, sfc wind..." for an hour?!! (simplifying things slightly, I know). Yes it is busy - I reckon Ground could be a killer, but it is a TOWER ONLY validation, so how do the aircraft that land and take off get to the localiser/destination??
I would hope that as younger controllers enter EGLL this 'white gloved' controller attitude would change, but unfortunately, I know of people who have gone there in recent years who are being tainted by older controllers and are now expressing a superior "I should get paid more" attitude.
Maybe if there was a little more acknowledgement of other units then this would be eradicated. Come out of the Ivory tower and see what others do!!
Why this company does not have a retention clause in the contract anyways is beyond me - they spend so much money and OJTIs spend so much valuable time training people, some sort of clause to say "you will work for x years on completion of training" should be included.
I know that EGLL still send someone to have lunch with college students prior to completion of each Approach course (elitist?) so surely if any student had a violent objection to working at LL then they should voice it then or otherwise put up with the known conditions.
To put the cat amongst the pigeons tho' - EGLL is wholly in CAS, has two runways, 1 for take off, 1 for landing, no circuits, extremely rare helo flights..... how hard is it to say "cleared to land" or "cleared for take off, sfc wind..." for an hour?!! (simplifying things slightly, I know). Yes it is busy - I reckon Ground could be a killer, but it is a TOWER ONLY validation, so how do the aircraft that land and take off get to the localiser/destination??
I would hope that as younger controllers enter EGLL this 'white gloved' controller attitude would change, but unfortunately, I know of people who have gone there in recent years who are being tainted by older controllers and are now expressing a superior "I should get paid more" attitude.
Maybe if there was a little more acknowledgement of other units then this would be eradicated. Come out of the Ivory tower and see what others do!!
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know that EGLL still send someone to have lunch with college students prior to completion of each Approach course
(elitist?)
teee heee
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Here comes the old argument again, about how easy LL/LTCC have it and how everyone else is so hard done by/busy. I hope that those who are posting on this thread from outside the capital have put their names down for both stations, but I don't hear of a long list of names wanting postings to the London area, especially the units above!
NATS HAS a retention problems in the South-east and should be doing something about it! It takes hours for us to train/validate someone, and then with three month's notice, they're gone! We can't go on expanding airspace to deal with increasing traffic in the south-east if we don't have the staff resources and know that we're not going to be suddenly sunk as they all move off. I don't blame them for going, I would have gone myself, but we HAVE to stop the drain of our most valuable resource. If the other parts of the country don't like the solution, or are prepared to get posted down here, then tough!!
NATS HAS a retention problems in the South-east and should be doing something about it! It takes hours for us to train/validate someone, and then with three month's notice, they're gone! We can't go on expanding airspace to deal with increasing traffic in the south-east if we don't have the staff resources and know that we're not going to be suddenly sunk as they all move off. I don't blame them for going, I would have gone myself, but we HAVE to stop the drain of our most valuable resource. If the other parts of the country don't like the solution, or are prepared to get posted down here, then tough!!
Ohcirrej
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Tower only Validation??? Wrong!!!!!! Thames Radar and Special VFR do exist.......which the tower guys now have to run between TC and the Airport due to staffing problems.
And how do they get to the llz/destination......team game dude. Arrivals isn't just a case of "cleared to land"......especially when the Final Director is doing his best to stuff as many jets down the approach as possible, with a stupid wind gradient causing a major catch up on final. And a good Deps man can make or break the TMA and the airfield as well. And 2 runways......you ever seen the result of having 6 jets on final approach and having the arrival runway blocked (with the departure runway unavailable for landing due to a crane being up)???? And Ground is white-man's magic!!
I know there are people who are sitting there reading this thinking "hey, this goes on at my airfield" and I appreciate this. I get p*ssed off with this "white glove" statement. Fact is, Heathrow IS the busiest airpost in the U.K. and is very limited by airspace. And the people there are proud of this and what they do (I know I am!). Yet, there is always that element who wants to urinate on the parade!
Come on Take5, this has all ben thrashed to death before. The States and Canada recognise different units are busier than others, and pay different "facility premiums" for this. Can this be seen as pandering to inflated ego's or recognition? You try and implement this here and there would be a riot! Also (this will annoy some people, and for this make an apology now), it can a bit frustrating when you've been slogging away in EAT's for hours, then as you walk out the room you see other guys plugged in reading the paper at the console. And they're on the same or more pay than you.
Come to the Ivory Tower and Heathrow Approach, and see what we do!
(The whole pay thing stinks a little.....when there are ATSA's in the room being paid more that the TMA guy or girl pointing jets at each other...ain't that right R.D.!?)
And how do they get to the llz/destination......team game dude. Arrivals isn't just a case of "cleared to land"......especially when the Final Director is doing his best to stuff as many jets down the approach as possible, with a stupid wind gradient causing a major catch up on final. And a good Deps man can make or break the TMA and the airfield as well. And 2 runways......you ever seen the result of having 6 jets on final approach and having the arrival runway blocked (with the departure runway unavailable for landing due to a crane being up)???? And Ground is white-man's magic!!
I know there are people who are sitting there reading this thinking "hey, this goes on at my airfield" and I appreciate this. I get p*ssed off with this "white glove" statement. Fact is, Heathrow IS the busiest airpost in the U.K. and is very limited by airspace. And the people there are proud of this and what they do (I know I am!). Yet, there is always that element who wants to urinate on the parade!
Come on Take5, this has all ben thrashed to death before. The States and Canada recognise different units are busier than others, and pay different "facility premiums" for this. Can this be seen as pandering to inflated ego's or recognition? You try and implement this here and there would be a riot! Also (this will annoy some people, and for this make an apology now), it can a bit frustrating when you've been slogging away in EAT's for hours, then as you walk out the room you see other guys plugged in reading the paper at the console. And they're on the same or more pay than you.
Come out of the Ivory tower and see what others do!!
(The whole pay thing stinks a little.....when there are ATSA's in the room being paid more that the TMA guy or girl pointing jets at each other...ain't that right R.D.!?)