Controllers being paid to go to EGLL
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In relation to the whole ATSA / ATCO debate I fully agree with the issue that NO Atsa anywhere within NATS should be paid more than ANY validated controller at their respective units.
ATSA's go on and on about about Controllers having a "them and us culture" when really it is the Assistants who all have the chipped shoulders!!!
Go and spend 18 months of hell at the college and then you can all talk about being on an equal par! ( Applications are welcome from everyone by the way !!)
At the end of the day , in my experience, there is nothing that an ATSA can do that a controller couldn't do anyway.
Sorry if this causes a barrage of complaints !!
ATSA's go on and on about about Controllers having a "them and us culture" when really it is the Assistants who all have the chipped shoulders!!!
Go and spend 18 months of hell at the college and then you can all talk about being on an equal par! ( Applications are welcome from everyone by the way !!)
At the end of the day , in my experience, there is nothing that an ATSA can do that a controller couldn't do anyway.
Sorry if this causes a barrage of complaints !!
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This thread has not just gone off at a tangent but completely changed character to a different subject, and a very pathetic and banal one at that. I find that all this posturing and perceived one upmanship about who is more important than whom embarrassing from a supposedly "professional" group of people.
I would also like to make this observation though, there are a group of predominately younger controllers who are on a major ego trip and perceive themselves to be "skygods" and who belittle anyone who is not "one of them". I am always amazed that some of them have wives/partners and even children as I have always found them to be so much in love with themselves that they even find time for other people. The management and NATS culture encourages them in this belief, however in the not too distant future when technology makes them redundant they will find themselves dismissed without a moments hesitation by NATS managemment as they find out that they are just employees like the rest of us.
I would also like to make this observation though, there are a group of predominately younger controllers who are on a major ego trip and perceive themselves to be "skygods" and who belittle anyone who is not "one of them". I am always amazed that some of them have wives/partners and even children as I have always found them to be so much in love with themselves that they even find time for other people. The management and NATS culture encourages them in this belief, however in the not too distant future when technology makes them redundant they will find themselves dismissed without a moments hesitation by NATS managemment as they find out that they are just employees like the rest of us.
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tigtog
“In relation to the whole ATSA / ATCO debate I fully agree with the issue that NO Atsa anywhere within NATS should be paid more than ANY validated controller at their respective units.”
For the love of Mike, why? A newly valid controller has cost NATS hundreds of thousands of pounds to train and has years to go before they’ve worked off that debt. An ATSA of similar length with the company will have long paid back the cost of his or hers training and have actually been earning their salary.
”ATSA's go on and on about about Controllers having a "them and us culture" when really it is the Assistants who all have the chipped shoulders!!!”
Read the above posts. There has been no suggestion by the ATSAs that ATCOs
(a) should have their pay dramatically reduced
(b) have no responsibility
(c) should lose their jobs
I think the ATSAs have been pretty restrained in this debate; even Connex has been civil if not always logical.
”Go and spend 18 months of hell at the college and then you can all talk about being on an equal par!”
A lot of ATSAs did. Is somebody your inferior because they failed at the college, failed to validate, removed themselves from training or lost their license? Be careful young man, there but for the grace of god….
“( Applications are welcome from everyone by the way !!)”
No they are not. NATS has made promotion from ATSA to ATCO diabolically difficult in the past and still refuses to take applications from temporary staff.
”At the end of the day , in my experience, there is nothing that an ATSA can do that a controller couldn't do anyway.”
At the end of the day, your experience must be at the worlds smallest unit, or you have no idea of what the people around you are doing.
”Sorry if this causes a barrage of complaints !!”
I doubt it.
“In relation to the whole ATSA / ATCO debate I fully agree with the issue that NO Atsa anywhere within NATS should be paid more than ANY validated controller at their respective units.”
For the love of Mike, why? A newly valid controller has cost NATS hundreds of thousands of pounds to train and has years to go before they’ve worked off that debt. An ATSA of similar length with the company will have long paid back the cost of his or hers training and have actually been earning their salary.
”ATSA's go on and on about about Controllers having a "them and us culture" when really it is the Assistants who all have the chipped shoulders!!!”
Read the above posts. There has been no suggestion by the ATSAs that ATCOs
(a) should have their pay dramatically reduced
(b) have no responsibility
(c) should lose their jobs
I think the ATSAs have been pretty restrained in this debate; even Connex has been civil if not always logical.
”Go and spend 18 months of hell at the college and then you can all talk about being on an equal par!”
A lot of ATSAs did. Is somebody your inferior because they failed at the college, failed to validate, removed themselves from training or lost their license? Be careful young man, there but for the grace of god….
“( Applications are welcome from everyone by the way !!)”
No they are not. NATS has made promotion from ATSA to ATCO diabolically difficult in the past and still refuses to take applications from temporary staff.
”At the end of the day , in my experience, there is nothing that an ATSA can do that a controller couldn't do anyway.”
At the end of the day, your experience must be at the worlds smallest unit, or you have no idea of what the people around you are doing.
”Sorry if this causes a barrage of complaints !!”
I doubt it.
Ohcirrej
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I'm goning to make a formal apology for starting the fanning of the flames on the ATCO vs ATSA pay. As Ark correctly points out, we could argue all day and start getting very personal.
And, I still stand by the point that as controllers (and I guess this is true of human nature) we don't like to see others getting something we're not (and believe we should be getting). However, IMHO, if you were to breakdown areas of responsibility a controller has while driving a sector and equate it to the salary they recieve, if the same analysis is applied to assistant salaries, this is where the beef lies. It's not a personal attack, or (for most of us I think) a "you're second rate employees to us sky-gods".
I can see from Tig's post the chances are he/she has never actually worked as an assistant. It is bloody hard work, and particularly on a night shift during a shut-down, they work their @sses off.
But, as usual, people are just going to p!ss and moan about the whole pay system and how much it annoys them.
(Of course, some people are just here to get a rise out of people!)
And, I still stand by the point that as controllers (and I guess this is true of human nature) we don't like to see others getting something we're not (and believe we should be getting). However, IMHO, if you were to breakdown areas of responsibility a controller has while driving a sector and equate it to the salary they recieve, if the same analysis is applied to assistant salaries, this is where the beef lies. It's not a personal attack, or (for most of us I think) a "you're second rate employees to us sky-gods".
I can see from Tig's post the chances are he/she has never actually worked as an assistant. It is bloody hard work, and particularly on a night shift during a shut-down, they work their @sses off.
But, as usual, people are just going to p!ss and moan about the whole pay system and how much it annoys them.
(Of course, some people are just here to get a rise out of people!)
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Jerricho
I suspect that your sentiments reflect most ATCO opinions.
“However, IMHO, if you were to breakdown areas of responsibility a controller has while driving a sector and equate it to the salary they recieve, if the same analysis is applied to assistant salaries, this is where the beef lies.”
This is a perfectly reasonable statement and I cannot imagine any assistant, even Connex, would disagree, but the key word is the third one – IF.
IF you analyse pay in this way then it is reasonable, but lets be constructive in our solution. IF ATSAs don’t have enough responsibilities then lets give them more responsibilities, rather than less pay. IF we compare all salaries in terms of responsibility alone then there are far greater inequalities out there and we ATCOs come out of it pretty poorly.
What IF we don’t compare salaries that way? What IF we compared the salaries in terms of retaining quality staff in regions with a high cost of living? The ATSA pay scale is appropriate in this respect. Airport security staff are very poorly paid, the turn over in the industry reflects this and the quality of their work is often called into question. Would we want a similar turn over in our support staff? You know better than anyone, IF ATCO salaries were structured to encourage retention of staff at key units then a lot of us would be in for big pay rises (which is my first contribution to this debate that is “on thread”!!).
We complain about ATSA pay because it comes out of our pay pool, the less we give them the more there is for us (in theory). Don’t forget, that is exactly the argument that created the T&D scale, which has shafted a whole generation of NATS controllers. What IF we had viewed payscales differently then?
I suspect that your sentiments reflect most ATCO opinions.
“However, IMHO, if you were to breakdown areas of responsibility a controller has while driving a sector and equate it to the salary they recieve, if the same analysis is applied to assistant salaries, this is where the beef lies.”
This is a perfectly reasonable statement and I cannot imagine any assistant, even Connex, would disagree, but the key word is the third one – IF.
IF you analyse pay in this way then it is reasonable, but lets be constructive in our solution. IF ATSAs don’t have enough responsibilities then lets give them more responsibilities, rather than less pay. IF we compare all salaries in terms of responsibility alone then there are far greater inequalities out there and we ATCOs come out of it pretty poorly.
What IF we don’t compare salaries that way? What IF we compared the salaries in terms of retaining quality staff in regions with a high cost of living? The ATSA pay scale is appropriate in this respect. Airport security staff are very poorly paid, the turn over in the industry reflects this and the quality of their work is often called into question. Would we want a similar turn over in our support staff? You know better than anyone, IF ATCO salaries were structured to encourage retention of staff at key units then a lot of us would be in for big pay rises (which is my first contribution to this debate that is “on thread”!!).
We complain about ATSA pay because it comes out of our pay pool, the less we give them the more there is for us (in theory). Don’t forget, that is exactly the argument that created the T&D scale, which has shafted a whole generation of NATS controllers. What IF we had viewed payscales differently then?
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I guess you're right Ark. Although, I don't think I ever implied a reduction in assistant pay (tee-hee.....pay rise you say?). Back to the original issue, this is has turned into a circular argument regarding increased pay as incentive for our "Heathrow's" or retaining of staff who are treking across the pond, and exactly who should get what (as it always does).
And I guess I was being a little narrow minded reference the roles and responsibilities of one's job: you can apply this to any job. Airport security screeners are an excellent example. As I'm sure other examples can be provided. As for widening the responsibilities of assistants......hell yeah! I'm an advocate of the progression form assistant (or as a Blippy) to controller (if that is one's desire). As well as an knowledge base to start controller training from, people like Tig (sorry dude....you asked for it!) wouldn't see the need for little "I've paid my dues in the college, what about you?" attitude.
As an aside, I am somewhat amazed the flag at the other end of the spectrum hasn't been lit yet: the topic of 'overpaid' managers hasn't reared it's ugly head........let's stop that there.
And I guess I was being a little narrow minded reference the roles and responsibilities of one's job: you can apply this to any job. Airport security screeners are an excellent example. As I'm sure other examples can be provided. As for widening the responsibilities of assistants......hell yeah! I'm an advocate of the progression form assistant (or as a Blippy) to controller (if that is one's desire). As well as an knowledge base to start controller training from, people like Tig (sorry dude....you asked for it!) wouldn't see the need for little "I've paid my dues in the college, what about you?" attitude.
As an aside, I am somewhat amazed the flag at the other end of the spectrum hasn't been lit yet: the topic of 'overpaid' managers hasn't reared it's ugly head........let's stop that there.
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Eira –
May I suggest you read (re-read?) the thread on ATSA Licensing – might be relevant to your thoughts on ATSA standardisation. I also agree with your thoughts on this issue, and see the PCS proposal of licensing/COC as being the method by which to achieve this.
DC10RM –
Apologies for bringing the ATSA/ATCO debate into this thread. It was not my intention to resurrect this topic, or to join in this thread at this juncture. However, the original topic under discussion here is, at this time, indirectly relevant to ATSAs too. There is difficulty at some Units in retaining ATSAs, and I also understand that there are difficulties in getting experienced ATSAs to apply to go to certain Units (EGLL, for instance). If this is the case, then why cannot the (alleged) incentive payment scheme be applied here as well? If it is going to actually happen, (even though I disagree with it) then this should not be the sole prerogative of the ATCO grades. As for “extending” the scheme (ie – everybody else getting in on the action), I expect the “loyalty payment” line of thinking to be the ATCOs next proposal – don’t call it ‘incentive’ – call it ‘loyalty’ – and then (obviously) they are all entitled to it! So, again, if that’s turns out to be the ATCO way of securing more money, then it too can be applied to ATSAs.
Tigtog –
“them and us culture” – it exists, believe me!! When you have spent as long on the receiving end of it as I, and many of my colleagues have, then you will understand why this issue is so contentious. As for your remark about ATCOs doing everything ATSAs can – Bu****it! Just as we cannot fully understand your tasks unless trained to do them, you cannot understand ours (at least not to an acceptable standard). Only somebody who is truly ignorant on ATSA issues/functions would suggest such a thing.
Arkady –
Its actually quite encouraging to read a post that supports the ATSA position (for once!) My apologies for not being more “logical” – please PM me if you want clarification on anything I have posted. Your points about the Prospect/PCS pay deal debacle are, as I remember, an accurate and fair resume of what took place. I would possibly take issue with one statement, assuming I have interpreted it in the way you meant:
Quote: “Just look at the number of ex-cadets and failed ATCOs who have remained in ATC as a result”
If your implication is that ex-cadets and failed ATCOs make good ATSAs, then, in general, I would disagree. As an ATSA training mentor, I have found these persons extremely indifferent to ATSAs and their role within ATC. They often view redeployment to ATSA duties as ‘demotion’, and no sooner than another job becomes available – they’re off. Can’t blame them – they want to be Controllers, - but they don’t make good ATSAs!
250kts –
Your comments about the PCS position were way off track. Also, your comments about changes to ATSA working practices are also inaccurate. ATCOs are not currently faced with the potential of redundancy – this is not the case for ATSAs. At certain Units, modernisation will result in big changes for ATSAs (and eventual redundancy for some), - those that remain will certainly not be riding the same “gravy train” you refer to. I would expect the next WP negotiations/agreement to reflect the beginning of these changes.
To everyone else –
My personal view is as follows – although we are all happy to accept additions to our salary from whatever source, the concept of ‘incentive payments’ is devisive and discriminatory, whether it applies to ATCOs, ATSAs or whoever. It should not be implemented, and furthermore, it should not be amended to apply to any concept of ‘loyalty payment’. All that will result is the continual argument between who received it, who didn’t, and how much we all did/didn’t receive. We are all salaried well enough as it is, especially compared to the majority of the aviation community. When the annual pay talks begin again, our Unions should endeavour to jointly negotiate a favourable and acceptable across-the-board percentage pay rise for all staff, irrespective of grade/title/job. That way, nobody can argue that they lost out, or that, as with the last agreement (!), the ATCO ‘bargaining’ position was stronger.
May I suggest you read (re-read?) the thread on ATSA Licensing – might be relevant to your thoughts on ATSA standardisation. I also agree with your thoughts on this issue, and see the PCS proposal of licensing/COC as being the method by which to achieve this.
DC10RM –
Apologies for bringing the ATSA/ATCO debate into this thread. It was not my intention to resurrect this topic, or to join in this thread at this juncture. However, the original topic under discussion here is, at this time, indirectly relevant to ATSAs too. There is difficulty at some Units in retaining ATSAs, and I also understand that there are difficulties in getting experienced ATSAs to apply to go to certain Units (EGLL, for instance). If this is the case, then why cannot the (alleged) incentive payment scheme be applied here as well? If it is going to actually happen, (even though I disagree with it) then this should not be the sole prerogative of the ATCO grades. As for “extending” the scheme (ie – everybody else getting in on the action), I expect the “loyalty payment” line of thinking to be the ATCOs next proposal – don’t call it ‘incentive’ – call it ‘loyalty’ – and then (obviously) they are all entitled to it! So, again, if that’s turns out to be the ATCO way of securing more money, then it too can be applied to ATSAs.
Tigtog –
“them and us culture” – it exists, believe me!! When you have spent as long on the receiving end of it as I, and many of my colleagues have, then you will understand why this issue is so contentious. As for your remark about ATCOs doing everything ATSAs can – Bu****it! Just as we cannot fully understand your tasks unless trained to do them, you cannot understand ours (at least not to an acceptable standard). Only somebody who is truly ignorant on ATSA issues/functions would suggest such a thing.
Arkady –
Its actually quite encouraging to read a post that supports the ATSA position (for once!) My apologies for not being more “logical” – please PM me if you want clarification on anything I have posted. Your points about the Prospect/PCS pay deal debacle are, as I remember, an accurate and fair resume of what took place. I would possibly take issue with one statement, assuming I have interpreted it in the way you meant:
Quote: “Just look at the number of ex-cadets and failed ATCOs who have remained in ATC as a result”
If your implication is that ex-cadets and failed ATCOs make good ATSAs, then, in general, I would disagree. As an ATSA training mentor, I have found these persons extremely indifferent to ATSAs and their role within ATC. They often view redeployment to ATSA duties as ‘demotion’, and no sooner than another job becomes available – they’re off. Can’t blame them – they want to be Controllers, - but they don’t make good ATSAs!
250kts –
Your comments about the PCS position were way off track. Also, your comments about changes to ATSA working practices are also inaccurate. ATCOs are not currently faced with the potential of redundancy – this is not the case for ATSAs. At certain Units, modernisation will result in big changes for ATSAs (and eventual redundancy for some), - those that remain will certainly not be riding the same “gravy train” you refer to. I would expect the next WP negotiations/agreement to reflect the beginning of these changes.
To everyone else –
My personal view is as follows – although we are all happy to accept additions to our salary from whatever source, the concept of ‘incentive payments’ is devisive and discriminatory, whether it applies to ATCOs, ATSAs or whoever. It should not be implemented, and furthermore, it should not be amended to apply to any concept of ‘loyalty payment’. All that will result is the continual argument between who received it, who didn’t, and how much we all did/didn’t receive. We are all salaried well enough as it is, especially compared to the majority of the aviation community. When the annual pay talks begin again, our Unions should endeavour to jointly negotiate a favourable and acceptable across-the-board percentage pay rise for all staff, irrespective of grade/title/job. That way, nobody can argue that they lost out, or that, as with the last agreement (!), the ATCO ‘bargaining’ position was stronger.
Ohcirrej
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Not a bad response for somebody who didn't give a toss.........
Are we forgetting the wings training (particularly) on initial posting pre TVC? I was rostered for a couple of cycles before mine so others could go on leave, so leave that cr@p out of it!
As for your remark about ATCOs doing everything ATSAs can – Bu****it! Just as we cannot fully understand your tasks unless trained to do them, you cannot understand ours (at least not to an acceptable standard).
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There is difficulty at some Units in retaining ATSAs, and I also understand that there are difficulties in getting experienced ATSAs to apply to go to certain Units (EGLL, for instance). If this is the case, then why cannot the (alleged) incentive payment scheme be applied here as well? If it is going to actually happen, (even though I disagree with it) then this should not be the sole prerogative of the ATCO grades.
My personal view is as follows – although we are all happy to accept additions to our salary from whatever source, the concept of ‘incentive payments’ is devisive and discriminatory, whether it applies to ATCOs, ATSAs or whoever. It should not be implemented
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I don't understand what your problem with this is? Serco have been paying controllers different wages at different units, indeed at the the same units even, for years - it's called divide and rule
On a more serious note though, isn't this just market forces at work - ie the market pays what it can get away with, and if it can't then it has to pay more?
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Gonzo –
Quote: “Yes, it would be discriminatory, but how else could we make Heathrow attractive to those who have been valid at other airports for 5-10 years where the difference in salary is not enough at present to compensate for the decrease in quality of life and increase of cost of living?”
The reason staff are refusing to come/stay at EGLL is because the NATS grapevine portrays EGLL as a legendary sh**hole for ATCOs and ATSAs alike. I cannot remember the last time I heard a truly favourable report on the place from a serving staff member. Usual complaints which filter down -virtually no promotional prospects for the ATSAs; ATCOs who constantly gripe about what they have or haven’t got; how hard they have to work compared to the rest of the world; never a day going by without somebody announcing that they wished they were working ‘somewhere else’, and all backed up by a Management regime and policy trusted by nobody. EGLL must put its own house in order before you stand any chance of attracting “experienced” personnel. Once that is achieved, (and its going to be extremely difficult) and EGLL has restored its “reputation”, such staff may be keener to move there anyway, possibly on EGLL’s own merits, and not solely because of financial incentives of the type being discussed here. You will not resolve this level of apathy with a pay rise – it will only appease in the short term, and then its back to square one. Throwing money at people has always been the quick/easy way to resolve issues – won’t work here unless the money is thrown at everybody – and there’s probably not enough to go around.
You also mentioned ATSAs in the context of attracting staff/payments. The reasons you give for ATCOs to receive payments refer just as equally to ATSAs – at present I understand that ATSAs are not in the frame for any such payments – that is discriminatory! And one question for you – just exactly what is the “decrease in quality of life” experienced by EGLL ATC staff? Compared to others, given your pay (plus your AAVAs!!) I would have thought most ordinary EGLL airport staff would be quite content with their quality of life!
Quote: “Yes, it would be discriminatory, but how else could we make Heathrow attractive to those who have been valid at other airports for 5-10 years where the difference in salary is not enough at present to compensate for the decrease in quality of life and increase of cost of living?”
The reason staff are refusing to come/stay at EGLL is because the NATS grapevine portrays EGLL as a legendary sh**hole for ATCOs and ATSAs alike. I cannot remember the last time I heard a truly favourable report on the place from a serving staff member. Usual complaints which filter down -virtually no promotional prospects for the ATSAs; ATCOs who constantly gripe about what they have or haven’t got; how hard they have to work compared to the rest of the world; never a day going by without somebody announcing that they wished they were working ‘somewhere else’, and all backed up by a Management regime and policy trusted by nobody. EGLL must put its own house in order before you stand any chance of attracting “experienced” personnel. Once that is achieved, (and its going to be extremely difficult) and EGLL has restored its “reputation”, such staff may be keener to move there anyway, possibly on EGLL’s own merits, and not solely because of financial incentives of the type being discussed here. You will not resolve this level of apathy with a pay rise – it will only appease in the short term, and then its back to square one. Throwing money at people has always been the quick/easy way to resolve issues – won’t work here unless the money is thrown at everybody – and there’s probably not enough to go around.
You also mentioned ATSAs in the context of attracting staff/payments. The reasons you give for ATCOs to receive payments refer just as equally to ATSAs – at present I understand that ATSAs are not in the frame for any such payments – that is discriminatory! And one question for you – just exactly what is the “decrease in quality of life” experienced by EGLL ATC staff? Compared to others, given your pay (plus your AAVAs!!) I would have thought most ordinary EGLL airport staff would be quite content with their quality of life!
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You also mentioned ATSAs in the context of attracting staff/payments. The reasons you give for ATCOs to receive payments refer just as equally to ATSAs – at present I understand that ATSAs are not in the frame for any such payments – that is discriminatory!
I think we'd all agree that Heathrow needs to improve as a unit, I think it has done in the last few years, immeasureably. However, that's going to take time, and that's something we don't have. We need something done both short and long term. Looking at ATCO manpower specifically, it's been said that if the next five years see the same number of validations, resignations, retirements, postings out etc as the last five years, then in summer 2008 we'll be 17 ATCOs short, against a complement of 60.
Wonder what the airlines would say to that, considering all the delays earlier this summer down to us were because we were 4 or 5 short on the unit?
And one question for you – just exactly what is the “decrease in quality of life” experienced by EGLL ATC staff? Compared to others, given your pay (plus your AAVAs!!) I would have thought most ordinary EGLL airport staff would be quite content with their quality of life!
Don't get me started on AAVAs. Overtime is perhaps one reason why we're short of ATSAs at the moment. I think the only beneficial thing to come out of AAVAs is the cost. Bear with me, but it costs 500 a shift, that's 1000 a day. that's 360,000 a year. Now, five ATCOs aren't going to cost that much, so maybe it will encourage the beancounters to get Heathrow to do something.
Throwing money at people has always been the quick/easy way to resolve issues – won’t work here unless the money is thrown at everybody – and there’s probably not enough to go around.
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There are rumours flying around NATS about the company devising a scheme at the moment where controllers are going to be offered lump sums to go and work at Heathrow Tower ?
It's also rumoured that some controllers already there are going to be offered some sort of retention bonus to stay ?
Does anyone know, FOR FACT(please!!), if this is true ?
It's also rumoured that some controllers already there are going to be offered some sort of retention bonus to stay ?
Does anyone know, FOR FACT(please!!), if this is true ?
Did anyone answer the question with a fact ?
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I worked on D Watch at LHR from 1983 until about 1994 (ish) and I lived in London from 1981 until 2001, I am now based at Swanwick and living in rural Hampshire. NATS could give me a 100% increase in salary and I still would not return to Heathrow. The reason is not financial, but quality of life. Working at LHR and living in London is just awful compared to the rest of the country.
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On a more serious note though, isn't this just market forces at work - ie the market pays what it can get away with, and if it can't then it has to pay more?
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DC10 ATCO
Can I quote you as a Swanwick ATCO when we get round to talking about the latest station grading ideas ?
Can I quote you as a Swanwick ATCO when we get round to talking about the latest station grading ideas ?
I worked on D Watch at LHR from 1983 until about 1994 (ish) and I lived in London from 1981 until 2001, I am now based at Swanwick and living in rural Hampshire. NATS could give me a 100% increase in salary and I still would not return to Heathrow. The reason is not financial, but quality of life. Working at LHR and living in London is just awful compared to the rest of the country