SVFR by night?
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SVFR by night?
I'm thinking about starting on my PPL night qualification and I'm wondering if, having got it, I'll be able to fly in controlled airspace by night.
I believe that
- there is no VFR by night in the UK
- I cannot fly IFR in controlled airspace (no IR or IMCR)
but can I get an SVFR clearance at night in class D or class A?
Mark
I believe that
- there is no VFR by night in the UK
- I cannot fly IFR in controlled airspace (no IR or IMCR)
but can I get an SVFR clearance at night in class D or class A?
Mark
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Quite correct, there is no VFR permitted at night in the UK.
Thus for a pilot with only a night qualification, one flies;
Special VFR in a control zone; and
IFR elsewhere.
You can not fly in airspace during night flight that you can not fly through on a flight by day. ie. you can not accept a clearance to cross and airway which is Class A.
However, As an example if you depart Bristol for Cardiff, you can get a special VFR clearance to leave the zone and then fly IFR until you obtain a special VFR clearance to enter the Cardiff Zone.
Don't have a copy of the old Guide to Air Law CAP to hand but from memory, a pilot without IMC or IR could satisfy IFR requirements in Class D airspace in this case by obtaining a clearance, operating at an appropriate level, making reports as required and REMAINING IN VMC AT ALL TIMES.
Most ATC units don't know the rules themselves (not so long ago heard a clearance issued by a tower in class G for a departure to proceed special VFR because it was night!!) so you will probably have to make sure that whatever ATC issue to you meets the requirements.
If however, you stick to flying in Control zones and Class G airspace then things remain very simple.
Regards,
DFC
Thus for a pilot with only a night qualification, one flies;
Special VFR in a control zone; and
IFR elsewhere.
You can not fly in airspace during night flight that you can not fly through on a flight by day. ie. you can not accept a clearance to cross and airway which is Class A.
However, As an example if you depart Bristol for Cardiff, you can get a special VFR clearance to leave the zone and then fly IFR until you obtain a special VFR clearance to enter the Cardiff Zone.
Don't have a copy of the old Guide to Air Law CAP to hand but from memory, a pilot without IMC or IR could satisfy IFR requirements in Class D airspace in this case by obtaining a clearance, operating at an appropriate level, making reports as required and REMAINING IN VMC AT ALL TIMES.
Most ATC units don't know the rules themselves (not so long ago heard a clearance issued by a tower in class G for a departure to proceed special VFR because it was night!!) so you will probably have to make sure that whatever ATC issue to you meets the requirements.
If however, you stick to flying in Control zones and Class G airspace then things remain very simple.
Regards,
DFC
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Again, I don't have the book to hand but I think you'll find that a non-IMC rated PPL (in the UK) requires different VMC criteria in controlled airspace (at least 10k flight visibility) in order to accept a SVFR clearance at any time of day - unless flying in a lane specifically notified "for the purpose".
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What a great subject for discussuion this is. I have spent many hours in the Seagull talking about this and many hours in pubs around the A30. Before I commit myself, does anyone know the correct rules. It seems to me that it is up to interpretation. We should not have SVFR it is too complicated as everyone has different opinions. Try this on an LCE, you could argue forever. I think we should only have VFR or IFR. Easy. Or you could have VFR(IMC) as a rating. What do you think?
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SVFR at night
In Canada SVFR can only be issued to an aircraft that is intending to land at the control zone issuing the SVFR. Otherwise in Canada if its 2 miles and clear of cloud in un controlled (most of everywhere in a broad sense) then you are good to go. Up here in the north its pretty much IFR but in VFR conditions because of the lack of visual refrence. What does a night rating entail in the UK anyways ? What does it take to get an IFR ? I can see the dangers of night flying with just a PPL but isn't no night flying a little extreme ?
Cheers,
PT
Cheers,
PT
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IMHO, the idea of special VFR is not in itself anyway complicated.
ATC have clear rules governing when a Special VFR clearance is required, when it is issued and the minimum conditions for the issue of such a clearance.
Unfortunately, in the UK, the same can not be said when viewing the same subject from a pilot's perspective since the conditions when a special VFR clearance can be accepted vary depending on what licence the pilot holds and what ratings are included in that licence.
As an example, a basic UK PPL holder can fly VFR within a class D zone in 5Km visibility. Should that pilot for some unknown reason request a special VFR clearance then the minimum visibility shoots up to 10Km.
OK, at night it must be special VFR and the extra visibility for a basic PPL makes sense.
However, by day, who would be daft enough to request a clearance that immediately doubled the visibility requirement?
To make things worse, there are lots of entry and exit lanes where the minima is 3Km visibility for the same pilot as quoted above.
Regards,
DFC
ATC have clear rules governing when a Special VFR clearance is required, when it is issued and the minimum conditions for the issue of such a clearance.
Unfortunately, in the UK, the same can not be said when viewing the same subject from a pilot's perspective since the conditions when a special VFR clearance can be accepted vary depending on what licence the pilot holds and what ratings are included in that licence.
As an example, a basic UK PPL holder can fly VFR within a class D zone in 5Km visibility. Should that pilot for some unknown reason request a special VFR clearance then the minimum visibility shoots up to 10Km.
OK, at night it must be special VFR and the extra visibility for a basic PPL makes sense.
However, by day, who would be daft enough to request a clearance that immediately doubled the visibility requirement?
To make things worse, there are lots of entry and exit lanes where the minima is 3Km visibility for the same pilot as quoted above.
Regards,
DFC
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DFC, I think the reason a lot of pilots request a SVFR clearance by day (in good VFR weather) is because they want to break all the rules and do a bit of low level flying
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Good point radar.
However, it is of use only in a multi engine aircraft that can maintain the required separation in the event of an engine failure.
In a single, being special VFR removes the 1500ft restriction but does not remove the requirement to glide clear of the congested area after engine failure. Landing in a park within a congested area doesn't count.
Perhaps this is another example of a silly rule..........you shall not fly over a congested area below 1500ft above etc......unless the weather is so bad that you are forced to accept a special VFR clearance or you are smart enough to get one in good weather just to avoid the rule or it is night time and you are allowed to fly lower just to cause more noise!!!!
Control zones are placed around the busier airports.
The busier airports are in the vicinity of one or more congested populated areas.
Thus this relaxing of the safe height rules only occurs over the more densely populated areas of the country. Does that not defeat the objective?
I don't know of any other country that relaxes the 1500ft rule just cause the weather is bad. They have a simpler rule.....if the weather is that bad then don't fly and especially don't fly lower.
Perhaps the proposed changes to Rule 5 should take this into account
Regards,
DFC
However, it is of use only in a multi engine aircraft that can maintain the required separation in the event of an engine failure.
In a single, being special VFR removes the 1500ft restriction but does not remove the requirement to glide clear of the congested area after engine failure. Landing in a park within a congested area doesn't count.
Perhaps this is another example of a silly rule..........you shall not fly over a congested area below 1500ft above etc......unless the weather is so bad that you are forced to accept a special VFR clearance or you are smart enough to get one in good weather just to avoid the rule or it is night time and you are allowed to fly lower just to cause more noise!!!!
Control zones are placed around the busier airports.
The busier airports are in the vicinity of one or more congested populated areas.
Thus this relaxing of the safe height rules only occurs over the more densely populated areas of the country. Does that not defeat the objective?
I don't know of any other country that relaxes the 1500ft rule just cause the weather is bad. They have a simpler rule.....if the weather is that bad then don't fly and especially don't fly lower.
Perhaps the proposed changes to Rule 5 should take this into account
Regards,
DFC
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Not necessarily.... the issuing controller may only be providing a procedural service.
I work at a unit in Class G airspace; it makes my day when a visiting heli pilot asks for a SVFR clearance
The rules do seem a little complex and open to misinterpretation though.
I work at a unit in Class G airspace; it makes my day when a visiting heli pilot asks for a SVFR clearance
The rules do seem a little complex and open to misinterpretation though.
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How can you be SVFR in Class G?? SVFR can only be flown in a Class A Control Zone at any time or in any Control Zone in IMC or at night.
Kirstey - SVFR is not necessarily better for us - esp in Class D. We have to provide standard seperation against SVFR/IFR and SVFR/SVFR - but just traffic info if VFR/IFR.
Kirstey - SVFR is not necessarily better for us - esp in Class D. We have to provide standard seperation against SVFR/IFR and SVFR/SVFR - but just traffic info if VFR/IFR.
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You can fly IFR in class D or E on an IMC rating:
ANO Schedule 8 section 2:
The holder shall not, unless his licence includes an instrument meteorological
conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command or co-pilot of such an aeroplane
flying in Class D or E airspace in circumstances which require compliance with the
Instrument Flight Rules.
so fly IFR at night!
T
ANO Schedule 8 section 2:
The holder shall not, unless his licence includes an instrument meteorological
conditions rating (aeroplanes), fly as pilot in command or co-pilot of such an aeroplane
flying in Class D or E airspace in circumstances which require compliance with the
Instrument Flight Rules.
so fly IFR at night!
T
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It's all coming back to me now - the reasons I hated airlaw so much!
From the above therefore do I correctly conclude that at night with a plain vanilla PPL plus night badge, I can fly to the Channel Isle (ClassA airspace) and would be IFR to the zone boundary and svfr from there on, and would have to remain vmc with 10k viz, and that with my IMC I can fly in cloud all the way to the zone boundary IFR but from the zone boundary I would need vmc and 3k viz?
From the above therefore do I correctly conclude that at night with a plain vanilla PPL plus night badge, I can fly to the Channel Isle (ClassA airspace) and would be IFR to the zone boundary and svfr from there on, and would have to remain vmc with 10k viz, and that with my IMC I can fly in cloud all the way to the zone boundary IFR but from the zone boundary I would need vmc and 3k viz?
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Sorry people, I meant to inject a little sarcastic humour into the post when I mentioned that some heli jockeys occasionally ask me for a SVFR clearance at my unit in Class G airspace.
It isn't available in Class G. Doesn't stop someone asking in error for it though.
What I was trying to imply is that a pilot should not assume that he is being provided with RCS or any other radar service for that matter. Some units (not mine obviously) may be providing a procedural service at the time.
Sorry for adding to the confusion.
It isn't available in Class G. Doesn't stop someone asking in error for it though.
What I was trying to imply is that a pilot should not assume that he is being provided with RCS or any other radar service for that matter. Some units (not mine obviously) may be providing a procedural service at the time.
Sorry for adding to the confusion.
Ohcirrej
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Sorry Tiggur......thought I was going mad there (well.....more mad then!)
You are so right though about assumptions regarding the service being provided. Here's a big can of worms...anybody got a can opener?
You are so right though about assumptions regarding the service being provided. Here's a big can of worms...anybody got a can opener?
