Aviation’s Future. Navy blue singlets, thongs, and hankies tied around your head?

[Wiley]

Trolling through D&G, I came upon the now locked ‘Derogatory Comments’ thread. It was a shame, (if inevitable), to see it locked, if only because of the last post from Desert Digger.The days of the professional pilot are numbered, and soon you will all be relegated to coming to work in navy blue singlets, thongs, and a handkerchief tied around your head. Desert Digger echoes my own long-held sentiments to a ‘T’ with that comment, but then goes on to say “And all thanks to the scabs and heroes of '89. So for you idiots who want to bleat "get over it", it will be you, undoubtedly the youthful pilots of today, who will pay a higher price professionally, than anyone who can claim to be an '89er.”

I suspect he’s also right to some degree in his last comment. ‘89 certainly would have played some part in the seemingly endless downward spiral of working conditions the industry in Oz has suffered over the last decade – if not immediately for the heroic few who enjoyed (and continue to enjoy) incredibly good wages thanks to it. (You can be sure that few upcoming management trainees completely ignore it the way so many younger pilots seem to do judging by their comments on this site.)

But there are many more factors than 1989 at play here, so could we discuss this with a slightly wider brush? Do you believe it is going to get as bad as DD (and I) think it will? One hundred and twenty years ago, to be an ‘engineer’ on a train – today’s humble train driver - was an extremely well paid and highly respected position. Until around 1970, a merchant seaman officer enjoyed similar high recompense and prestige.

Both are now ‘navy blue singlets and thongs’ positions in the main, in the merchant marine case, done by poorly paid and sometimes dubiously trained ‘professionals’ from Third World countries.

I can’t speak with any real knowledge of what caused the descent of the railways to their present state. However, the merchant marine reached the position it is in today after ‘bright’ MBAs forty years ago saw a way to save money by ‘dumbing down’ the job with Third World (read ‘cheap’) labour, both seamen as well as officers. Cargo shipping today suffers quite horrendous losses at sea, which, because Westerners are seldom involved, gets almost no coverage in the Western media. Now many shipping companies have come to see that the current ‘cheap’ setup has been a horrible mistake (and is anything but cheap), but it’s too late. The rump of professional seamen officers is gone, they were not replaced over the last 30 years, and even if (magically), a large number of young men of the same calibre as used to apply to be merchant marine officers were somehow to come forward to take up jobs in the industry, there’s no one and no system in place to train them.

There were once many young men who had a passion for the sea every bit as deep as the passion many of us hold for Aviation. Today, it’s hard to believe there’ll ever be a shortage of young men and women who’ll want to fly aeroplanes, (but I’d lay London to a brick that someone said that forty years ago about the merchant navy).

So, as uncomfortable as it might be to face the fact, will we see a different kind of recruit into the airline ranks in the not too distant future? The current enormous outlay in time, effort and money to even qualify for the first rung of the ladder (with no guarantee of employment at the end of it) will surely make it less and less attractive to someone planning a career in the industry if they can see no meaningful recompense (or let’s be honest, prestige?) for all that effort except the joy of tooling about the sky in an airliner.

So, is Aviation, or the vast majority of it outside an ever reducing core of major Flag Carriers, destined for the same fate as the merchant marine? (And will the aviation industry, like the shipping companies, discover (too late) that they’ve thrown the baby out with the bath water?)



Sorry, Woomera, if this isn’t the most appropriate forum for this, but it’s every bit as important, in my opinion at least, as many of the other topics I see left here, and I suspect there are many, like me, who rarely look at the other forums within D&G.

[Next Generation]

So, as uncomfortable as it might be to face the fact, will we see a different kind of recruit into the airline ranks in the not too distant future? The current enormous outlay in time, effort and money to even qualify for the first rung of the ladder (with no guarantee of employment at the end of it) will surely make it less and less attractive to someone planning a career in the industry if they can see no meaningful recompense (or let’s be honest, prestige?) for all that effort except the joy of tooling about the sky in an airliner.

Surely this is a good thing.

I would prefer to fly with someone who is doing the job because he/she loves it rather than someone who sought a career in aviation just because he/she thought it would pay well.

I personally have never considered that PRESTIGE was a consideration in my choice of career.

I would much rather be a pilot on $ 35000 per year than a Sales rep on $70000. Why? Because I am doing what I love to do.

Only those guys with their noses held high in the air, trying to satisfy their inflated egos would be interested in prestige.

Why is it that so many relate high standards to high wages?

I am sure there are many low-paid pilots with high personal standards, and that similarly there are many highly paid pilots with average personal standards.

Regardless of how low the wages and conditions are, I can't see me wearing blue singlets and thongs to work.

[Croozin]

Judging from the first reply, it looks like it’s already happened, Wiley.

Next Generation, I haven’t checked your profile, but I’d be guessing you’re relatively new to the job. We all remember being there, and believe me, as much as we love to fly, the thrill starts to wear off after a while, as hard as that might be to understand when you’re young. (I can hear the ‘if you don’t like it, get out of it’ replies flying over the ether already.) The move to ‘Jacky Howe’ singlets etc isn’t as silly as it might first sound when you consider the way we’re locked up in our little caves now, almost completely out of sight of the pax.

On the maritime theme, I have a mate in the UK (late 60’s) who’s an ex sea captain. He says that the British have had to simplify the examinations for ship’s officers because so many of the foreign candidates couldn’t pass the old ones. It remains to be seen if we ever see the day when the Brit ATPL examinations are simplified!!! (Or has that all passed to JARs?)

[Transition Layer]

I posted this in another thread in the D&G GA forums, but it rings true here as well...


A bit of irony for you all...

I was searching on google for some info on what actually makes someone a "professional" (to follow up on the comparison between doctors and pilots). Initially I typed in "What is a Professional" but had to narrow it down so tried "Definition of a Professional Pilot".

The result?

A link to a website called Will Fly For Food (http://www.willflyforfood.cc)

That just about says it all!!!

TL

[Woomera]

Wiley

Please, be my guest.

[Capt.XXXX]

Amen, Wiley! And I thought I was alone in my concern of the demise of our profession, which seems to have become so profit and greed driven at our expense.

[*Lancer*]

As someone who probably fits a similar demographic as Next Generation, I'll happily disagree with them.

It's not about the money - it's about the passion. Bring back the days of Captain's walking the cabin interacting with the passengers. The days where Captains were actually called Captain by staff using the name out of respect rather than because the book says so.

At the end of the day, pilots are already glorified bus drivers... and I agree that at this rate, the 'glory' will be short lived.

In an age of economic rationalism, and unrealistic public demands for cheaper air-travel, what can be done?

[High Altitude]

Interesting thoughts and opinions.

Being fairly young to aviation and not having any airline experience my only contributions are:-

Yes the days that the Captain used to walk through were the same days Joe Public could go up the front. Must say that it is probably thanks to the Captains stroll that my initial awe of aviation started.

Again without really knowing it does appear that in general wages have declined. Interesting comment about the public wanting cheaper seats but isn't it the airline that puts out these prices. An interesting point that I find is that Qantas are generally cheaper than VB when surfing for fares???

Now to VB - What is wrong with the conditions?

At the end of the day the airline pilot is the upper echelon of Aviation. I have said it in a previous post but Bigger, Better, Higher Faster...

As for the stubbies, blue singlet and thongs... Joe public would have no idea as they never get to see Capt & FO...

[Cruze Power]

I am not sure that the analogy of the exploits of such a high society career of being train engineer is really that valid.

Do you believe it is going to get as bad as DD (and I) think it will? One hundred and twenty years ago, to be an ‘engineer’ on a train – today’s humble train driver - was an extremely well paid and highly respected position. Until around 1970, a merchant seaman officer enjoyed similar high recompense and prestige.

Oh to be humble. I'll see you drive a train on your ATPL and not kill someone.

The world and its societies evolve, and with evolution comes change, and yes obsolescence.

Have mercy that one day, a pilot may have to walk and mingle with the humans.

I think one might find that every career path, doctors, lawyers and such, has found that like all things evolutionary, working conditions have changed.

Yet in the splendid year of 2003 we have the highest level of home ownership, mum and dad share investment, most new motor cars and out of control levels of consumerism ever known to man.

Let's not look at the level of union membership of workers and the rapid decline in those membership numbers, for fear of realisation of the truth that such an attitude demonstrated above is clearly outdated and out of touch.

Yes I must say it, get down off your blooded cross we need the wood, stop crying poor and look outside your window, because there are real and talented people out there who manage quite comfortably.

"A man branded as a Scab is truely strengthened by such an imbosilic insult." Quote from a very wise man. If you don't know who it is, then clearly you are the one hurling the stupidity in the first place.

Remember, the dinosaurs too once dominated the earth.

[leftfrontside]

Next Generation you my son in my humble opinion are a complete and utter Richard Cranium.

My wife and I consider ourselves very average middleclass, we raised 3 kids albeit private school educated and now there is only ourselves, we don't have a BMW or Merc in the garage and OUR BASIC LIVING EXPENSES FOR TWO 55 YR OLDS is 35K a year.

So I would be delighted if you could PM me and tell me how you intend to progress on such a meagre income.

I could shovell s%$t and get more.

Wiley is quite correct you young idiots have prostituted the industry and I'm glad I am about finished with it. lfs :mad:

Oh NG that 35K a year is after tax, about 60K before tax - moron - and just in case you're thoroughly confused you need to pull a heap more than that to have a half decent lifestyle with the odd steak and a good red. I pity you idiots, call you scabs, heroes whatever what has happened in aviation is that the GA mentality (with sincere apologies to genuine GA) has entered the mainstream industry, next we will have these "NG" types poleing 744's around for free getting hours ala GA.

Time to retire to the beach house it's all yours! :sad:

[jtr]

NG you are your own worst enemy. In 10 or 15 years, think back to what you wrote here, and see how you feel then.

[7x7]

Some interesting initial replies from both points of view to what I suspect will be (or at least should be) a long topic.

I have two questions:

Firstly, to those with opinions similar to the very aptly named ‘Next Generation’. Try to picture a world where you’ve never read a comic, magazine article or a book, or seen a TV show or movie, even a travel poster – indeed anything – showing flying as something exciting, exotic or even remotely glamorous. Picture if you can a world where flying – in all its guises – is something done by low paid shift workers who clock on (at all hours of the night!) carrying their lunch boxes and thermos flasks and wearing striped baseball caps and bib and brace overalls. Difficult, I know, but bear with me for a moment please. Forget the travel to exotic places – these low-paid workers would be in such places for such short periods they wouldn’t see anything of them, and forget the fact that they enjoy cheap subload travel to them on their holidays. Any perk like that simply doesn’t exist.

Now ask yourself whether you would have grown up with any semblance of this attitude expressed by ‘Next Generation’ where you’d happily do the job – with all the pitfalls we suffer in today’s world of aviation, like huge training costs (for not even a possibility of any eventual vaguely meaningful reward?), potential summary dismissal, possible loss of medical or licence every six months, at least a 50% guarantee you’ll be away for damn near every important date in your wife or children’s life, along with all the rest of the pitfalls we’re all so familiar with.

I’m assuming that the person I’m addressing is of above average intelligence, with a decent education and with aspirations of making something of yourself in life. Now ask yourself whether you, like ‘Next Generation’, would happily fly aeroplanes for $35,000 or its equivalent a year in such an environment. Or would you perhaps look elsewhere, to some career where you might enjoy some rewards commensurate to the effort you put into your education and your job, to say nothing of a lifestyle that might allow you to have a semblance of a family life and that provided something a little above the average for your kids education and your own retirement. (Oh, and ‘Next Generation’ one more point – after you’ve committed yourself to this career ‘for the love of it’ for $35,000 a year, how would you feel if someone came along willing to do the job for $17,500 a year?)

My second question is to ‘Wiley’. Why in the world did you post this thread on D&G? This topic doesn’t apply just to Australia, but to every pilot worldwide. It should be on the main Pprune Rumours page.

[Kaptin M]

It really is with some reluctance that I make this post, and to Wiley, leftfrontside and others who will, I really want to ask, "WHY, what's the point?".
Time and again, when the subject of 1989, dumbing down of aviation, and the relevance of a strong pilot union are raised, there are those who howl it down with the usual "Get over it/Get out of it/We're not as stupid as you lot were". And with this attitude apparently prevalent, why SHOULD those of us who have been in the industry for a lifetime feel it (is) encumbant upon us to try to look after the next generation of pilots who will occupy the flight decks?
Perhaps it's a hang-over from the years up to 1989, when the "now generation" passed on as much "good gen", knowledge and know-how of the airline culture they had taken care of to the "next generation". Stuff that is foreign to the likes of Cruze Power.

Yes the industry has - and is still being - dumbed down. The DEPTH of aircraft knowledge and flying ability in airlines is less today on aveage, than it was of pilots in equivalent positions say 25 years ago. The old "chalk and talk", pull the aircraft apart bolt by bolt, and then re-assemble it, have gone - replaced by a.v. courses with a quick multiple choice exam after each section.

We have seen the whittling down of our conditions during OUR aviation working lives - I believe that the pilots who enjoyed the BEST conditions were the generation before ours, and was it just co-incidence that this was when union membership was at its highest?!
On this point Cruze Power supports my argument when he states, "Let's not look at the level of union membership of workers and the rapid decline in those membership numbers.."

The salary? A pilot's salary is not indicative of the work he does on a regular daily basis, it IS - as one PPRuNer succinctly stated on another thread - indicative of what a pilot is able to do when required.

But again I hearken back to my opening question - WHY should WE bother trying to assist the Next Generations?

[Wizofoz]

Kap,

Sooooo......

I guess you wouldn't accept employment unless represented by a "Strong Aviation Union.".

So which union negotiated and ensures the conditions you currently enjoy and so often boast about?

Or was it negotiated on the basis of a (Gasp!!) individual contract?

[Next Generation]

leftfrontside
I wish you all the best in your retirement.

Kaptin M
Exactly how have you been assisting the Next Generations?

By telling them that the industry is stuffed, and that there is no point following their dreams?

I personally do not seek any assistance from you. There are many senior people in aviation who do remember why they got into this damned game in the first place, and I am sure that they have a considerable wealth of knowledge to impart.

7x7
(Oh, and ‘Next Generation’ one more point – after you’ve committed yourself to this career ‘for the love of it’ for $35,000 a year, how would you feel if someone came along willing to do the job for $17,500 a year?)

Well let's turn the question around.

How much IS a pilot worth? Will you be happy with $100,000, $200,000, $500,000 ????

Nobody has said exactly what this FAIR wage should be. The truth is that you will never be happy, whatever the pay and conditions.

When I started out, I knew that I would be spending a large amount of money on training, with absolutely no guarantee that I would ever have gained employment. I decided to take the risk, and I have never looked back.

If I had wanted security, I would have settled for some other career that was in demand and paid well. I decided that there was more to life than money, and so I followed my dream.

I wish a lot of you guys would just take a step back, and consider how lucky you really are.

[56P]

As usual, Wiley, you have provided an excellent post that should be seen by ALL aspiring pilots.

I tend to agree with Kaptin M, however, in that just why should anyone bother to warn the "next generation" - except, perhaps, in order that they may be aware from whence their " current conditions" evolved.

Keep it up, Wiley.

[Johhny Utah]

Next Generation - why did you get into this industry in the first place...? :rolleyes:

To take your statement that you fly purely for the love of it just that one step further - why don't you stop being paid to fly (if you are at all) and instead go & get another job & actually pay to go flying? After all, if you are doing it purely for the love of it, then surely no price is too high a price to pay for such a thrill.;)

As for myself - I am in fact happy with the money that I currently make as a professional pilot. However, I am not happy about the constant downward pressure on my future earning potential. I am concerned that there seems to be a drive from within our profession to drive down the wages of those working at the highest wage levels. I propose that most of the people doing so (& the profession as a whole) would be better off if they spent their time trying to attain the higher wage levels, rather than trying to drag others down.

To answer your question Next Gen - I believe that pilots are worth at least as much as those on the highest wage levels in todays environment. As such, provided that current wage levels maintain (at the absolute minimum) parity with inflation & CPI, I will be happy for the rest of my career. To state that I will never be happy with terms and conditions is wrong - however, just because a person may be happy with their current terms & conditions, should they not always be seeking to improve upon them...?

I do consider myself lucky to be where I am today. However, I don't see that as a reason to be willingly giving away any of the hard fought benefits & privileges that my companions have worked for over the years.

[Next Generation]

Johnny Utah

To take your statement that you fly purely for the love of it just that one step further - why don't you stop being paid to fly (if you are at all) and instead go & get another job & actually pay to go flying?

You are absolutely correct in your statement here.

I have had many jobs before aviation, where every spare cent I had was used to pay to go flying. That is why I am so happy just to be getting paid to fly now.

After all, if you are doing it purely for the love of it, then surely no price is too high a price to pay for such a thrill.
Again, you are absolutely correct!!!!

You just don't get it, and I doubt that you ever will.

[Keg]

Actually NG, Johhny gets it perfectly.

What you miss is that someone will happen along one day who will be prepared to do the job for less than you do. Someone will come along and offer less again until one day you WON'T be being paid for the privilege. Paying for endorsements, training etc is just the thin edge of the wedge.

Enjoy the money while you get it. It won't be at that level forever with more people with an attitude like yours! Good luck to your future spouse and kids too who won't be impressed with you being away all the time doing your aviation thing on less money that a school teacher!

[Next Generation]

So am I to believe that in the not-too-distant-future, there will be pilots sitting up the front of 747's and Airbuses who are actually paying to be there?

You are fanciful in the extreme.

Just because I believe that being paid $ 200,000 or more to sit up the front and push buttons is extravagant, does not automatically mean that pilots should not get paid at all, or, as you would have us believe, pilots will be paying for the privilege.

So what if pilot X gets paid more than pilot y.

If pilot y is happy with what he is doing and how much he is earning, then leave him be. You on the other hand want to make him feel inadequate because he isn't on the same money as pilot x.

Enjoy the money while you get it. It won't be at that level forever with more people with an attitude like yours! Good luck to your future spouse and kids too who won't be impressed with you being away all the time doing your aviation thing on less money that a school teacher!
Do not even begin to make judgements about my personal life. My extremely supportive wife would much rather be married to a husband who is happy in his job, than married to an unhappy individual who is raking in the dough.

From your statement, I must assume that your wife finds lots of money is a substitute to you being at home? Perhaps you should have married somebody who was interested in you and not your money.

It is pointless comparing wages to that of a schoolteacher as I NEVER WANTED TO BE A TEACHER !!!!!!

I WANTED TO BE A PILOT. I BECAME A PILOT. I couldn't give a stuff about the wages!!!!!......

Do you get it yet?

[Winstun]

My extremely supportive wife would much rather be married to a husband who is happy in his job, than married to an unhappy individual who is raking in the dough. :hmm: ...wouldnt be so sure...picture please!!:E
WHY should WE bother trying to assist the Next Generations? ...:rolleyes: From an independent academic position, I am of the understanding that the next generation are, in the usefullness and relavence of union membership, still to this day, appreciating the worthwhile assistance and contributions made by the Kaptin and his gang of 89..........:{

[Keg]

NG, I get it- probably better than you know.

Don't get me wrong. I love flying. It is the most fun I've had sitting down. I know that being a pilot and away from home for half my life has it's costs. It costs me about triple in phone bills, it costs triple in making up for time away by going out for dinner, movies, etc and trying to make time at home as 'special' as I can for my wife and kids due to the fact that I regularly say 'I won't be around to support you for ten days, I'm off to fly aeroplanes, have fun, eat out, drink with the boys, etc'. The ONLY compensation we have for that is money. Yes I could 'survive' on less but I'm not just a pilot. I'm also a husband and a father and they rank a LONG way in front of being a pilot.

You feel that I've taken a shot at you and your family by saying 'good luck' and you take offense. You obviously don't practise what you preach when you imply my wife is with me for money! If she was it would make my job of leaving them for days at a time a hell of a lot easier. I see as half my pay being compensation for my wife and kids for the fact that I'm NOT there to help out all the time. A reflux infant and a four year old tends to wipe the other halves out and being adequately payed for what I do assists with the 'recovery' from those situations.

Again, (and again for some), you are happy with what you are getting. and I'm genuinely happy for you Someone WILL appear and do it for less. Congratulations on having a wife that is happy for you to be happy flying, most people can't claim that. However, the reason that GA is the way it is is because EVERYONE has your attitude. Hope you enjoy your life when the airlines are EXACTLY the same way.

Still don't get it NG? Give it a few years and when someone has come along and undercut you and you're under pressure to get a a 'real' job to help with the bills and then you may. :rolleyes: Need to lose those rose coloured glasses digger otherwise when the colour finally wears off you'll scare yourself stupid at just how the world looks!

Have a nice life.

[Patriot One]

NG - I'm sorry to say that you are not brave for stating your position here - you are only showing an extraordinary niavety. The simple fact is that many, many of the pilots on this site have watched as the profession that they loved (and joined with the same enthusiasm as you) has deteriorated and they have most likely had the spirit beaten out of them for most of their careers. On a previous thread I stated that in my experience it takes about 5 years for a starry eyed pilot to become demotivated in the commercial industry. It is not just about salaries. More often than not reductions in salaries are also met with dumbing down in management areas, which inevitably leads to dumbing down of standards. It is human to put up with a certain amount of bullsh*t if there is a compensating reward, such as a decent salary. When the rewards are few a professional pilot will feel extremely exposed in a cockpit by the poor standards that create risk, and by his ever-lowering salary which does not balance the extra responsibility he has had dumped on him/her. This is usually the time that he feels demotivated by his industry and his profession.

Sadly it is very hard to arrest the spiral in the commercial world. Someone will always try to seek commercial advantage by cutting costs wherever possible. It is interesting that in the management world corporations are now recognising that good management is key to success. Managers are now starting to be incentivised to join companies - but note, this follows many years of dumbing down of management, which in essence has a knock-on effect in the employee ranks. Dumb managers do not inspire staff. The Corporate world is now getting big on paying for responsibility - inevitably this will mean performance based pay, which is appropriate only if measured against strict success criteria. As Wiley pointed out, the merchant marine industry has realied, too late, the perils of dumbing down. My personal opinion, and one that I have tried (and I think, failed) to express inother threads is that the perils of dumbing down this industry and the pilot profession in particular will mean a whole lot more than the loss of a few crewmen, a quantity of iron ore, and the bell tolling at Lloyds in London.

But who is going to stop the spiral? Sad to say NG, as long as the likes of VB can get ahold of people with your attitude towards flying then the the profession will continue to drag wearily down to mediocrity. It's all well and good to say the the love of flying is your inspiration, but at what point do you consider that you aren't paid enough relative to the responsibility of all those people behind you? I would say 90% of pilots would accept a fair wage relative to the responsibility. It's a profession, it has tremendous risks, and despite advancements in technology the pilots role will never be replaced by a machine or a software program. The real risk is in the perception of management that advances in technology have made the pilot's job easier, and therefore (somehow) his/her responsibilities less - therefore we can afford to pay him/her less. I'm not a pilot but I don't think the landing environment is any less-dangerous than it has ever been. Technology certainly assists - but it can just as easily assist you into a dangerous position as a safe one. In a computers "mind" the earth isn't hard - it's merely a process, and a "soft" one at that.

Take 2 pilots - one in GA, one in a major airline. Salary difference? - huge. Capability? - relative to the individual NOT the salary. It's not the salary - it's the environment that is prepared to dilute the value of a pilot, and consequently the profession.

It used to be that to climb Mt Everest took a dedicated professional with years and years of experience and technical capability. Nowadays you can pay someone to drag your sorry arse up the mountain and back down. Does that make you a professional climber? Nowadays VB can get many, many "gee whiz" pilots to join the ranks - it has opened opportunities for younger, less experienced pilots. Many people blame the '89ers - but interesting that few are prepared to blame VB. VB has done more to damage your profession than '89 ever did.

..once again, for the record, this isn't a personal crusade against VB. When I first started writing on PPRUNE it was to relate my opinion on the damage that VB will do the Australian industry. This thread only advocates my theory...and certainly the responses of NG only confirm what I have said.....

[The Bullwinkle]

Aviation’s Future. Navy blue singlets, thongs, and hankies tied around your head? Are things really THAT bad !!!!!!............

BW

[cunninglinguist]

Quote: " just because I believe that being paid 200k or more to sit up the front and push buttons "

Have'nt you blokes worked it out yet?, is that the quote of someone with vast aviation experience, denegrating his own profession?
That is the sort of ignorant comment that comes from someone outside the industry, I doubt that NG is a pilot and if he is probably has'nt reached 100 hours yet.

As for the blue singlet and stubbies, if you had told an airline pilot back in the 80s they would be wearing an open shirt, no cap and a leather bomber jacket, they probably would have laughed at you. So whats the next step ?

[GT-R]

Im getting sick of hearing this 'someone will come around and do it for half' etc etc until 'we are paying to go flying.'

Thats such a crock, how many people in GA would like to be flying jets on the same pay rate as a Grade III instructor? And how long do you think people have been wanting to do this?

When is it going to happen ?? :rolleyes:


Stop being so elitist people, there is nothing special about flying aeroplanes, one can easily complete all the training required and fly big jets within a year of having the money to do it.

How long do Doctor's spend studying ?? :rolleyes:

[Johhny Utah]

Next Gen - calm down for a second and have a think about what you're posting...:uhoh:
You state:
If pilot y is happy with what he is doing and how much he is earning, then leave him be. You on the other hand want to make him feel inadequate because he isn't on the same money as pilot x.
Wrong! I have NEVER gone out of my way to point out to someone how much more money than them I make. However, there have been plenty of people (yourself included) who advocate that I am overpaid. Note that it is not that I am overpaid relative to themselves, but merely overpaid. This is the sort of statement that I take offence at & which I belive is contributing to the downward pressure on the wages of our profession. After all, if certain managers think we're overpaid (ideally we'd all work for $0 - good for the balance sheet) and fellow pilots think we're overpaid - then hell, we MUST be overpaid. :rolleyes: Do you see where I'm coming from?

I actually think that the problem is not that most airline pilots are overpaid - they're not -but that the vast majority of GA pilots are grossly underpaid. :mad: Perhaps we should try & raise the lowest level of pay, rather than dragging down the highest. After all, which approach stands to benefit our profession the greatest? You tell me...

[meanestman]

I might play devils for a moment.
Lets say the industrial events of '89 is not responsible, even in part, for the gradual demise of salaries and conditions we see today.
The problem lies both in "perception" and supply / demand.
Business worldwide is continually under the squeeze of ever increasing efficiencies of scale, thanks to modernism of commication and automation, add to this catastrophie and war and you see a problem.
The fast paced nature of change makes for the "competitive edge" being so much more pertinent than it ever has been. This ties in to perception, and "ones worth". Can you honestly expect, in a country where pilot supply far outstrips demand, that johnny public would see a VB captain on 140K a year as being "underpaid?" When he/she themselves have just completed six years of uni (graduating in honours) after busting an academic gut, to find there is scarcely a job to go to?
If its money and exemplary conditions youre after, then you have to look globally, and go to a place where the gap between supply and demand may be not so wide.
1989, whilst I tire of its constant re-hashing here, Is a glitch in history (a bad one I agree) is not responsible for the shape of the airline game today. I do admire the strength of those who fought to preserve their conditions, and do not agree in principle with those who broke ranks. However, its the name calling 14 years on of a small minority, that makes it hard to respect credibilty.
NG loves his flying, thats fine, I too hope after 20 or so years he/she sings the same tune. Just dont let us all down, by ever accepting a deal not agreed too by the collective masses, as money and conditions (like fair rostering etc) will one day be very important to you. You have gone a fair way in exposing your ignorance, by the remark about 200K and button pushing. To pilot an airliner of the jet variety takes a lot more than that, I hope one day you'll get to see that. This is a career path we hope to be on, look up career in the dictionary. You'll see that as long as productivity, responsibilty, and workload ( which all translates into stress) increases, one should be fairly remunerated.
What you do now IS easy, Ive done it, sure it was fun.
Whats important to me now is educating my child, owning my house, health insurance, retirement, maybe oneday a boat..........

[The Bullwinkle]

Can you honestly expect, in a country where pilot supply far outstrips demand, that johnny public would see a VB captain on 140K a year as being "underpaid?" I don't believe any sane person could possibly call that underpaid.

BW

[Groaner]

"pull the aircraft apart bolt by bolt, and then re-assemble it"

errr, which RPT aircraft gets pilots to completely disassemble and reassemble it?

I'd just like to avoid it if possible...

[compressor stall]

Groaner,

I would not. I would like to know that my pilots are fully aware of how the aircraft works (and not just the lights on the dash) for problem solving when the **** hits the fan.

CS

[Planned Root]

I couldn't give a stuff about the wages!!!!!......

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/jpshakehead.gif

[splatgothebugs]

Wages....."are those, those things you should get once a week"

Whoever said GA needs sorting out was totally correct.

After living on next to nothing for 5 years because you get paid jack for working, getting $100k + per year is required to regain your losses.

Money is not everything, but if someone is going to other you large sums of money to do what you love, ARE YOU GOING TO SAY NO........ I think not.

The important thing to remember is that your doing what you love, if your not and your only doing it for the money it's time to rethink your choice of career

:) :ok:

While I bi%&}ing, I think most people who fly tend to know as much as they can about the A/C they are flying, it's safety thing and also helps you out when are broken down in the middle of nowhere and need to explain to the engineers what the problem is :O

[huan hung lo]

****! with so many ignorant twits out there who would fly for peanuts I should be looking at starting my own operation.

Think of the money I could make!

NG you could be my chief pilot on lets say $15000 pa? Oh yeah and I'll even throw in movie passes for you and the missus!

[Next Generation]

huan hung lo Now you're starting to get the idea! Will you include the blue singlet and thongs in the deal, or do I have to provide those myself.

The bottom line is you would not have the capacity to start your own organisation, but assuming that you did, you are now advocating exactly the type of tactics that you are so against as a pilot.

I have no doubt that you would find somebody to fill your Chief Pilot position. I have done my time as a low-paid casual, and I have now moved up to a more comfortable position. However, my idea of comfortable and yours are probably completely different.

And by the way, should you employ me on $15000, could you at least refrain from refering to me as ignorant.

Thanks.

[Ralph the Bong]

Next Generation, let's look at the wage and salay issue from another perspective; that of a bean counter. Let's just say that you spent 3 years at uni learning how to count beans(about the level of study for an ATPL plus a couple of heavy turbines and a jet type) and then you did your professional year (about as much study and on the job training as your first year at QF or DJ with sims etc) and then with about 5 years of working in the 'industry' our hypothetical bean counter gets a job at a widget factory as a Financial Controler (reporting to the CEO). This factory has a total value(inventory, building , land goodwill, forward orders etc) of $50Million and a staff of 130. This is the approx. value of a B737 and its passenger carrying compliament. The sort of salary that this position attracts is around $100K. This more than a Virgin Blue FO gets and our hypothetical beanhead has far less responsibility.Do you think this person is overpaid? What would the CEO get? Such a person would have spent 10 years as a manager at a lower level (perhaps as a Financial Controller) serving an apprentiship much in way that an FO needs prior to command. The CEO would be on $150-200 K easy. However, If the CEO or FC screws up, it's not likely anyone will die. If the widget factory 'crashes' with a total loss, will there be an end financial cost to the community of close to $1Billion? Not likely.They can also go home most nights and be with their families, have a social calender with regular Sunday BBQs with friends, actually be there to see the kids play sport, have X-Mas off, not be on the other side of the planet when a family crisis occurs. Consider too that if you develop a medical problem and have to retire 5 years early you may miss out on about $1.5M salary that you may have earned.Keg is quite correct; the high salary is but recompense for the level of responsibily required and for being stuffed around. To the companies, you are nothing but a licence and a suitcase. Dont take this all the wrong way, mate, we older blokes are trying to help you formulate an appropriate attitude to your work and your chosen profession. It's nice to go flying, but remember that your family have lives too. BTW some years ago Mrs. Bong and I worked out that to run a middle-class home in SYD requiered a MINIMUM of $48K NETT per annum(Incl food , 2 cars, mort. ins, 2 kids at public school and no frills such as boat, horse riding lessons etc.). On a VB FO salary, ya would JUST scrape in. :ugh: Wiley, as an after thought, I know a long distance train driver who makes about $60k, so I guess we are just about there...:yuk:

[Perpetual_Hold_File]

NG, I hope to see you post here again in a few years time and see how your position on your job, wage and conditions is then.

You reek of a new fresh entry into this industry, along with some of your other pals posting their dribble on other threads discussing GA wages and conditions. While it is great to be all wide eyed and overly excited at your new flying job don't drag everyone else down by accepting and supporting conditions and wages below that which you are entitled to becuase in the end you are just shooting yourself in the foot.

If you just love flying so much then quit and get that other job earning all that money and fly at the local aero club on the weekends.

Don't drag the rest of us down, some of are trying to carve out a living doing a job.

[Sub-Sonic MB]

Nice to know Ralph TB is endeavouring to maintain/regain the salary he had as a scab.
NG, I am afraid that the best description with which to fit you is that you are naively foolish.
Very few people enter flying on the basis of anything other than passion for flight itself.
It has, in the professional aviator's realm, nothing to do with remuneration at a proper level for the job done by a commercial pilot.
Unfortunately, you are mixing the two, and that is exactly what the boffins who run companies want you to do.
The more bias they can levy on those like you who think the passion for flying is greater than the reward for the profession, the more chance they have of squeezing you until, one day, the pimple will burst.
The attittude of the pilots when that occurs will determine who gets most of the pus over them.

[Next Generation]

Ralph the Bong
I get fed up with the comparisons between differing jobs with wages and salaries. If you want to be a bean-counter or a CEO, then F@ck off and do that, and leave the flying to those who want to do it! Nobody held a gun at your head and told you to become a pilot. You made a choice!

Perpetual_Hold_File If you just love flying so much then quit and get that other job earning all that money and fly at the local aero club on the weekends. You have totally missed my point. I don't want "that other job earning all that money". I want this job, and I am happy with what I get paid.

Why can't you lot just be happy doing what you're doing.

[meanestman]

NG
we get the point, franky couldnt give a rats areoli how much you love it and for how little you'd do it. Im always sus on people who feel the need to hammer you with how much they dig their job, love someone, enjoy simulator checks etc etc ...get my point ?? so button it and go lube up.

[Winstun]

....and I am happy with what I get paid. Touche.
It is highly amusing to witness all this preaching on the subject of undercutting by Aussie airline pilots....... :ooh: Oh yes, the good ol Aussie airline pilot .....that stabs his brother in the back, is responsible for the lowering of worldwide contract rates, that friggin thinks 100, 200, even 300 Aussie K is good coin. I admire and encourage Australian GA pilots to go for those jet jobs, for whatever you feel is the right amount of chump change. Got a mama? Hell, work for free...if thats what you like. These hypocrites posting here have not ever cared for your destiny, and they are on record over many years denegrating the Australian, and indeed worldwide airline salary standards by negotiating B, C and on..scales for their own personal short term rewards. Its OK for them to work for less coin than I would scratch my ass for...but not OK for you all. :hmm:

[Next Generation]

Winstun Thankyou.

[blueloo]

NG, surely you jest? How can you not compare similar professions and wages? Surely a pilot strives to be a professional and therefore an appropriate comparison with other professionals is valid - And similarly appropriate remuneration is awarded for such diligance?

My mates profession involves (educated?) gambling with other peoples money (superannuation etc) on the stock market. They get a percentage return for the profits they make, these guys in some cases dont even have degrees, yet they get $300,000 + (not inclduing perks and bonuses). You know what else - if they have a bad day, they dont kill people, they just lose other peoples money - not even their own! Guess what - they also (as others have said) have weekends off, can plan more than 8 weeks ahead, dont suffer from jetlag, and get to stay in their own bed every night. What price can you put on this? Well in your case nothing - because you cant compare flying with any other job, and you seemingly thinks this justifies your position.

Why should a pilot get paid peanuts purely because he enjoys his job? As a passenger on a plane I would be much happier and feel vastly safer knowing that the "professionals" up front are not only enjoying their job, but also not devoting concentration to figuring out whether or not they can pay the bills because some "fool" decided to accept piss poor wages and conditions, "purely because he enjoyed the job".

Have you no standards NG? Thats what it comes down to. Self respect and standards. Are you saying your skills are worth ****** all in remuneration? Then i hope i dont ever fly with you, because frankly your skills must suck(in accordance with piss poor wage). Yes I enjoy my job, and I take personal pride it doing my job the best that I can, and I expect to be rewarded by not only my on personal satisfaction from doing a job well, but also the company paying me for my effort and professionalism.

One last thing to consider - If our mate Geoff, can get paid the millions he does a year for steering QF through bad global times, with a board of highly qualified advisors with ample time to consider and research any decision made, what price is it worth to pay a Captain of an airliner worth hundreds of millions of dollars with 400 odd lives (what value do you place on a life? - in your case not much) who has the ability in a split second to make a decision which can financially cripple and ruin an airline let alone the lives of those on board, and their relatives? In those last few seconds of landing an aircraft more decisions are made that could kill, maim and cripple an airline, people and families than Geoff and his board of advisors would be likely to make in a year.

[Mr. Hat]

It has become apparent that there are some people in this world that have a general dislike for money and good living in general.

In which profession do you find people saying that they or their peers are getting paid too much? Its utter nonsense.

Lets say Captain xxx gets a pay reduction from 250k to 150k. Who is supposed to get the extra 100k? The share holders...the office types....the managers?

I once worked in a place where we were paid by the hour flown (casual) and hence at the end of the week had about enough money to buy a tin of baked beans and when lucky I'd splurge and get some two minute noodles. I can tell you my morale and overall motivation toward the career was very low. Do you think I woke up everyday saying "I'm going to read up on some law today" when I couldn't really afford to live? At a certain point the employer was forced to pay us a fulltime wage. Suddenly I could buy nice food, wine, beer and even go on a holiday.

My motivation/morale changed out of sight.

Does this mean to say that I'm not really interested in flying and that I'm just after money? I think not - just the basics for now please: ie water, food, shelter and who knows sex now and again. Sure I can understand if an employer is going through a rough patch and the belt needs to be tightened - fine.

As for the airline guys? I've said it on this forum a million times. They are in charge of some expensive machinery and up to 400 souls on board. With terrorist attacks thrown in, I don't think its too much for them to ask for a good wage. It takes f@rken years to save 40k, to get your licences, get your hours, get an interview and get into an airline and then keep your job. Is it too much to ask to be paid the equivalent to some guy who did a three year IT degree and gets a company car, phone and laptop every two years all without having left his home town?

Keep asking to be paid less, and hey, they will soon pay you nothing. And you will be the fool still sharing rental accomodation and missing out on holidays so you can pay for your renewal.

There is a life out there - good food, lovely places and beautiful people to experience it all with and it ain't going to happen if you don't have any money.

Just for the record I can afford nice food and good wine and I'm in GA. How did I do it? I just targetted the right employers.

[Hatchet Harry]

I really can't understand how a real Professional Pilot could sit back and say with a straight face that some of their fellow professionals are Overpaid...... They are not overpaid !!!!!

Simply, they are paid better than those in the regionals and G.A, who are Underpaid.

Considering the amount of dedication, discipline, financial sacrifice, personal sacrifice etc to get there..... Along with the responsibility of the job itself, how on earth can it be said that some Pilots are paid too much ?????

Yes some of those on high salaries are lucky to some degree but they have generally worked their Fuc#ing Arse off to get the quals to get the good job in the end. :confused: :confused:

I am in agreement with those who say that G.A is the problem. It has produced some very jealous and bitter individuals. Their only mission is to fu#k up the lives of those who have climbed higher up the career ladder than themselves..... Surely this is a product of terrible conditions in G.A...... Not the fault of a well paid Professional Airline Pilot ??????:confused: :confused:

So as is usually the logical outcome, why don't we all concentrate on improving things in G.A and let those who are in the Airlines enjoy what they have..... Maybe if this was acted upon by all of us with some Balls we would all be much happier:D :D :D

P.S. I'm not an Airline Pilot, in fact I'm an unemployed G.A driver at the moment..... I just don't see the use in attacking what others have......:ok:

[Next Generation]

MY FINAL POST Don't all cheer at once.

At the risk of repeating myself AGAIN, why is there a co-relation between wages and standards?

Blueloo, if through some drastic chain of events, your wages were halved tomorrow, are you going to have a 50% reduction in your standards?

There will never be any agreement on this issue, so I shall bow out now, and let you continue with the frivolity.

[Ralph the Bong]

There ya go again Sub Sonic, you're incorrect as to the "scab" bit. Get ya facts right. I was never a part of the dispute...Funny how none of the '89ers here in VN name call me "scab" when they ask me out for drinks.

[blueloo]

NO but i am sure i would have a 50% reduction in motivation which then decrease's my standards, which may not affect anything in the immediate future, but long term..... I might then feel as though I can only do the job to the minimum standard required - after all I am not worth much to my employer any more........And flying is not really a job lending itself to the minimum standards.


The 50% reduction in wages will then cause me to be concerned about my house repayments, food on the table etc....how can i possibly give 100% to a job (which requires 100%+ at times) when i am constantly worried about bills.

And one other thing - (as someone mentioned) - your wage cut is someone else's bonus. If your happy to give the guy who decided to cut your wages - you know the same intelligent bloke who decided that the cheap ****ty green paper towels in economy toilets that fluff and dont absorb moisture - then fine - you do it, and be happy, but dont screw everyone else at the same time and devalue what others have worked hard for and what your currently sponging off at the moment.

[Boney]

Blueloo

Yes, true I believe that people don't want a pilot up the front that has had a bad nights sleep due financial stress.

I am just another GA loser and I have a little laugh to myself when people ask how much of a stressful job it is?

Yeah, sometimes it is stressful but for me the most stressful part of being a GA driver is the never ending financial stress year after year involved when driving the smaller beasts. That constant unlying stress - will I be 40, living in a caravan and getting a boner at tax return time because I made a huge 28K but only spent a record small amount of 5K on this ridiculous excuse for a career?

I made a decision a few months ago that I will not be in this industry by early next year in the current form, ie. as a 32 yr. old GA driver striving for that unattainable dream. Let me tell, what a relief, what a weight I feel has been lifted off my shoulders.

Face realities peoples - it is over.

It is a matter of 'when' not 'if' as to when some scum bag shoots down an airliner with a shoulder rocket launcher and also, any bets on how long before The United States of Aggression invades someone else looking for oil, sorry, Weapons of Mass Destraction.

If you are already in an airline, I wish you all well. If you are 18 and just starting your PPL and have parents with the dollars, you will probably make it. The rest, like me need to grow up, face reality and move on.

[Ralph the Bong]

NG, where did I say that I wanted to be an accountant? I didn't. Anywhere! You have failed to read my post properly and I suggest that you would have great trouble with any Verbal Reasoning test given to you as part of an airline employment assessment. I became a Pilot out of love for my work, as you did. If you want to work as a Pilot for $35k fine, you go do it. Have fun and enjoy your life in poverty, mate. I hope that you have another income stream, 'cos when the kids come, your gunna need it. Once you've been in the real world for a while and your voice breaks, I am confident that you will change your tune.

[Winstun]

Then i hope i dont ever fly with you, because frankly your skills must suck(in accordance with piss poor wage) Blueloo, do your skills suck? In accordance with your piss poor wage…:rolleyes: if they have a bad day, they dont kill people …:ooh: hope I don’t get you on a bad day..:hmm: And flying is not really a job lending itself to the minimum standards.
Oh yes it is…otherwise the standard would be higher……:rolleyes: how can i possibly give 100% to a job (which requires 100%+ at times) when i am constantly worried about bills 30 thousand children perish daily and some fatcat airline pilot whining bout his bills… gonna friggin cry...:{
These greedy airline pilots that preach here are on record for lowering of airline salary levels in Australia over the last decade by making short term deals for their personal benefit, and overseas by undercutting the world market. This drivel about their "special skills" is repetitive Aussie nonsense, its a 4 week flightsafety course to type in a boeing. Do not be fooled and make no mistake, their only agenda here is to protect their cushy seats from the ambitious GA pilot supply. Cushy for them, very cushy for GA pilot, a very big step backwards for me…would not even consider it for twice the coin they make…Poverty is a relative thing… So I say to you all....go get em! :ok:

[Wiley]

The multi-posting Next Generation reminds me greatly of a page a good friend had stuck on his fridge – “Notice to All Teenagers – Leave Home Now, While You Still Know Everything.”

Next Generation, I’d simply love to speak to your incredibly supportive wife over a cup of coffee at the kitchen table while she’s attempting to balance the budget, probably alone because you’re away following you dream and ask her for her spin on your philosophy as you’ve expressed it here… if not now, perhaps in five to ten years from now.

What’s scared me the most from this thread is the number of respondents who have latched onto the title as if I – or to be more accurate, Desert Digger, in the original quote from the locked thread – was being literal in the comment about blue singlets and thongs in the thread title. (It’s called a metaphor, troops, or a figure of speech… an exaggeration attempting to drive home a point.)

Next Generation, do yourself an enormous favour and carefully read 7x7’s post on Page 1 again and ask yourself if your ‘selfless love’ of flying is 101% to do with actually poling an aeroplane around the sky, or is there just a teensy weensy bit of the aura that society as a whole used to place on it involved? (The uniform, the freedom – dare I say it, the glamour and the perceived chick-pulling power those magic words ‘I’m a pilot’ versus ‘I’m a $200,000 a year widget production manager’ might have had on your imagination as a teenager (and younger) when you decided that this was the career for you, and damn the expense.)

Way back in the 50’s or 60’s, the Australian Arbitration Commission, in recognising a pay scale that aligned a senior airline captain’s wages with those of a Supreme Court judge accepted that flying aeroplanes as a career was “sui generis” – (which, for those of you who are not Latin scholars, translated roughly means ‘one of a kind, unlike all others’) – in the demands it placed on someone in that career. People like Next Generation seem to me to be doing their damnedest to undo that.

It’s really not a popular thing to say to many people here, but the job has (or had until recently) the fast disappearing aura and attraction that surrounds it today only because of the incredibly hard fight that pilot unions waged against utterly rapacious airline management in the 20’s and 30’s in the US and to a lesser degree, in Australia in the 1950s. Most people in the flying game will have heard of Eddie Rikenbaker, the American WW1 fighter ace. Fewer will know him for the absolute bastard airline manager he became in the 20’s, who tried to employ pilots under conditions that were almost literally ‘blue singlets, thongs and handkerchiefs around their heads’. It was only through the incredible efforts of ALPA that the job became anywhere nearly as attractive as it is today.

Next Genaration, I don’t expect you follow my following gratuitous advice, but I’ll offer it anyway. Click onto Amazon and do a search for ‘Flying the Line’. Buy the book and read it. It is a history of (US)ALPA in the 20’s and 30’s. If you think that book has no relevance to you today, you have an even bigger problem than you’ve exhibited so clearly to us all on this thread already.


And 7x7, I agree that it would be interesting to see the different responses to this subject from overseas Ppruners. Is it possible to link this thread to the main Rumours page, Woomera?

[meanestman]

jeeeezus,
i dont remember my check to line on a burner being as easy as you make it sound.
Winstun, youre either quite a champion, or youre just bitter on account of your mediocrity and failure in this industry.
Its a battle in ANY industry to retain conditions. Just as any industry has its fair share of "backstabbing" and "sellouts". It isnt a conspiracy theory Winstun, its just the business wheels of the world churning over as ever. If you leave aviation to try find an oasis of fair play and huge bucks elsewhere, you will one day jump from the 50th floor.

[Ralph the Bong]

Those 4 week courses are like drinking from a fire hose. Then there is line training. Another 4-6 weeks of ego denting mayhem where every waking hour is spent either in the aeroplane or reading about it. If you fail, you typically get one more chance(if lucky) then a scrub ride. Fail this and you're out on your arse! End of career. I agree with the thrust of several postings, being that much of the dignity has been taken from the job. I am sure that we will never be reduced to the "Blue singlet" brigade, however, I do note that Virgin Blue and Australian Airlines Pilots have a company motif on the backs of their shirts. A seemingly superficial point, but not a good look. Research has been done into the individual's Hierachy of needs and part of this is that workplace performance is influenced by issues such as the social esteem that they derive from their work. Many in management seem to have forgotten this aspect of of how people have a need for both tangible(financial) and intangible rewards. I bet the Railways were cleaner, more efficient and ran on time 70 years ago when Station Masters and Engineers took pride in their work and recieved the social and financial recognition that enabled them to do so.

[Transition Layer]

I imagine quote a few of you wouldn't drift into the GA forum as often as someone like me, but you should have a look at this thread as well -For the thinker in GA! In Defence of the Employer (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=98844)

The likes of Next Generation had a lot to say about GA conditions as well, suggesting it was OK to accept below award wages because we love it.

Two points...

Flying for a career because you love it is what it's all about :ok:

Just because you love flying it is NOT OK to accept less than you're worth :(

Simple as that...

TL

[meanestman]

these last two posts are the most sensible and correct Ive seen on Pp yet.

[blueloo]

Winstun, your posts continually amaze for all the wrong reasons, and still you lost all credibility in a recent ranting and raving post in another thread. When you have something credible and sensible to say people may listen. Until that time I will not hold my breath.

[Wiley]

Following 7x7’s suggestion, I’ve posted my first post on the main site’s ‘Aircrew Notices’ page. It will be interesting to see how different the response is there. Not nearly so spirited, would be my guess.

[D Rate]

Gentlemen,

Your admirable heroics are simply outdated in the modern world.
In a world where 80% are in poverty and the majority in the western world NO MATTER WHAT THE INDUSTRY are being pushed downward, I find your reasoning symbolic of the "me" syndrome.

As YOUR generation passes the torch to us, the next generation, economically we are being handed less as an aggregate than you got from your parents and indeed they got from thier parents. Perhaps it is your continued self indulgence that has stripped the dividend for the following generation.

Those of us who follow work for companies that are trying to produce a dividend to satisfy you mummy and daddy shareholders. How do they do it? You got it reduce their cost base......And gentlemen 25(ish)% of the cost base is labour cost.

It is unfortunate that your self indulgent ways and continued insistence of "YOUR" entitlements has in the end a cost ultimately borne by those who follow.......US

If that is not enough for you go work in a myriad of other industries, you will find exactly the same pressures, exactly the same problems and exactly the same generation whinging that it is we who are undercutting. We aren't undercutting, we are simply living in a declining system that baby boomer greed and self gratification has bought about.

NG is absolutely correct, it's much better to be happy doing what you like. He like me are left a system where the actual value of something is not the monetary figure attached to it.
How much is a sunrise worth?
:ok:

[Lodown]

Stark evidence of the generation gap that my parents spoke about. Wondered when I would witness it.

I'm getting old!!!


What is something or someone worth?

Only what someone else is prepared to pay for it.

[Patriot One]

NG - I think you should have said "Last Post" and not Final Post.

Lots of responses attacking "greed", and yet if that is the only take away that most of you have from this excellent posting by Wiley, then you have completely missed the context of the conversation.

Over the years that I have been in aviation pilot salaries have gone from extraordinary heights to somewhere close to mediocrity - the fact that salary levels are inconsistent across airlines virtually prooves the point that downsizing pilot salary is not re-aligning them with their actual worth, but moreover "how much can we take out of these guys/gals".

The bigger issue in your profession is that management look at the cost of the pilot as a target for savings, rather than identifying an appropriate salary for responsibility. They would, quite literally, get you down to clerical levels if they could. The greatest concern is that no-one in this industry has determined a minimum acceptable salary for a pilot. Until someone drawers that line then the lot of a pilot will only get worse. When management look at an aircraft term sheet they know that they can haggle and bargain to get a good rate - an appropriate rate. They also understand that that will only fall so far. When they look at a pilot salary they don't see any level that they cannot fall below.

The comments of D-Rate and NG actually point the finger at the career pilot for having been so greedy that commercial airlines could not survive. That is just so much bull****. It is the likes of D-Rate and NG who misinterpret high salaries as greed, when in fact they are a just reward. D-Rate - the reason that you are living in a declining system is because you are letting it decline, not because of someone else's greed.

Pilots can quite rightly feel abused that their salaries are quickly falling to the same level as a baggage loader - someone explain to me how that is appropriate. It isn't and is testimony to the issues created by the likes of NG and D Rate who consider salary as secondary to getting a seat in a commercial jet.

For all the guys in GA - your lot is only going to get worse. As commercial jet pilot salaries fall the knock-on effect is that your own seats will be devalued.

NG and D-Rate stop looking out the cockpit window and start looking at the guys that are on your back giving you a damn good rodgering - one day you'll ask yourself - "why does my arse hurt so much".

[Ralph the Bong]

D-Rate, I feeel sorry for you and your 'generation'. You inherit a difficult world. However those that you blame for society's ills are more than likely to be victims. The culprit is not the baby boomer generation, it is big business and the govt. These two groups have worked hand in glove for years to gradually erode the conditions of employees in all western countries. The social demographic regarding the distribution of wealth has changed in a most frightining way over the last 20 years. The middle-class is being slowly disempowered and impoverished, the poor are getting access to less and less and being required to contribute more and more. The wealthiest 5% of Australia are owning a larger chunk of the national cake and making money like never before. Sucessive Australian govts. (ALP and Lib/NP) have allowed the casualisation of the workplace; a practice that business finds convienient but is another factor in degrading the quality of life for workers. (ie; A 6 hour shift is as much of a working day as 8 hrs but a 6 day working week only gives 36hrs pay usually with no penalties). The destruction of Ansett is a case in point; The Australian govt and big business seized an opportunity to get rid of a large unionised company and thus be in a position to put pressure on conditions throughout the aviation industry. It's as simple as that. Globalisation is another means to strike at middle Australia. My opinion is that conditions in all industries, not just aviation, will get worse, not better.

[NO LAND 3]

NG, I live in a third world country. Workers have few rights, low pay, awful working conditions and sometimes quite literally die on the job. But they sure are cheap to employ!
Your (and my) children will be competing with them one day soon!

[mention1]

AHHH YES.... I have the image in my head now of Leonardo di Caprio strolling down the street in his stolen pilot's uniform....

Little Girl:
"hey Mister, are you a pilot?"
di Caprio: "Yes little Miss, I surely am"

Those were the days, eh?

Now the glamour of the industry has surely gone, as I witnessed last year at a major American hub where I saw 5 or 6 pilots lining up at the terminal's McDonald's outlet.

Rolf got it right, gov't and big business have slowly stripped the salaries of every worker. And all the while selling off the Family Jewels. Don't get me started on that! Look at Commonwealth Bank, Telstra, various airports, Qantas etc.

The Manager's job is simple, to make dividends for the share- holder. And if the manager did it this year, then why can't they increase it next year?

Don't forget that flight crew are the airlines highest cost centre (apart from fuel) so we will always be in the firing line:uhoh:

Most days I can't wait to get to work (MOST, lets face it who loves those 5:30 am starts when its persisting down). But each month I'm expected to do more and more.

Like peace, we must have eternal vigilance :ouch:

And Another Thing...

This is world wide. Just read Michael Moore's book "Stupid White Men" on the conditions commuter pilots have to work for in the USA. You will be shocked!:(

[Desert Digger]

M1 - Your assertion that flight crew are the highest cost in the airline operation is wide of the mark, and I think an assumption on your part.
In simple terms, let's say the hourly cost of a Captain and F/O is $225. On a route MEL/SYD 1:20 so the cost for the two is $325.
They operate an aircraft with 150 pax in a 200 seat config: 75% load factor.
The cost in each ticket for the two pilots is $2.17.
The ticket costs the aerial punter what? $100? $150? If it is $100, and I doubt many are sold at that fare, it is (obviously) 2.17%. If it is $150, it becomes 1.44% of the fare.
The balance, 97.83% or more goes to the rest of the company, of which the vast proportion is labour.
None of the rest of the takers has to undergo the training or checking regimes the two guys who take 2.17% do.
None has invested the vast sums it costs to get to first base.
To reiterate other posters, until and unless pilots get hit with the magic bolt, realise that united they stand and divided they will continue to fall, then that $2.17 will soon be $0.17, and even a navy blue singlet, a pair of thongs, and a handkerchief tied at the four corners will be out of reach.

[Next Generation]

COMPASS
ABC TV, Sunday 24th August, 10.20 pm

[international hog driver]

This is a great thread, it has give our crew a damn fine laugh.

Our “crew” is very international as a matter of fact on my current job we have someone from every continent except Antarctica.
We all work a long way from home, for Aussies to get home it takes three days, ‘we don’t pay no stinkin’ taxes’, and we have a generous (by Oz standards) leave package.

I’m not an 89er yet they are among us, I’m not a 01er but they are with us too. But we have one thing in common that it appears may of you have lost sight of.

We wear our uniform with pride. We all have a passion to fly. We get paid respectfully for what we do.

The degeneration of conditions in Australia goes hand in hand with the problems in the 80’s. Glorified bus drivers….I believe was the comment and it stuck, those who are now your task masters had a while to let that sink in.

The Trojan is in the castle now boys, JetConnect, Australian, were simple counters to market pressures that DJ and VQ initiated.

The boys that had, had enough of their foreign sojourn returned dead set keen to resume their lifestyle. They had what they needed and could settle for less.

Don’t worry they people that cut the deals and agreed to the specific terms will be gone from what was one a highly respected career in Australia in a few years leaving everyone else to pick up the piece’s.

These days you get more respect for losing other peoples money in Australia anyway.

So for myself and the other expat crewmembers we will remain in our positions where we are still respected, with appropriate remuneration. While we watch from afar the Trojans divide and conquer the last remaining bastion of realistic aviation career’s, and aviation in the south pacific become’s a game of contractors, fly by nights, and renegades. Blue singlets…….not us.

You reap what you sow…….

RESPECT
:sad:

[elektra]

Some good points in that last post and in many of the above writings.

Still remains tho' that when the AIPA faction left the AFAP many years back because grubby things like "pay, conditions and scope clauses" were beneath them...the rot set in. It has taken a long time for the effects to work their way through the system but those left at home are in the midst of it now with worse to come. '89 was but a milestone along the road.

There was a time when either the President of the AFAP or the VP Technical could pick up the phone and speak to the minister or an airline CEO. When there wouldn't be an airline or safety related seminar or working group witout an AFAP member.

That time could come again, not to herald in an era of uniform wages and conditions...that has been and gone...but of decent conditions appropriate to the airline business involved, respect and professional treatment both ways.

And for those wondering about conditions in GA...there's only been one group fighting hard for many years on that task and that's the AFAP. Many of us, as airline pilots in the 70's and 80's never did get back our 1% directly. It subsidized the industry work as a whole, especially GA. That subsidy was a self help concept long forgotten by many who felt that they had no place in a "union".

There's one constant in all of the posts here...."if you don't learn from history, you'll learn from history".

Safe flying

[Qwannas]

New Generation, whilst you are being so open and honest with regard to your opinions, could you please enlighten us as to how long you have been flying for? What sort of flying does your background consists of? Good, old fashioned, honest facts will be suffice. With opinions such as yours I am intrigued - as are most of us who have listened to your banter.

[Pinky the pilot]

elektra; There would be many that hope that you are correct re your views on AFAP. However for AFAP to ever be able to start doing anything pilots should start supporting it!
Last night (Wed 20th) was the bi monthly SA meeting at Adelaide and guess how many pilots attended?

Three... and two were unemployed!!!!
:mad: :mad: :mad:

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

[Kaptin M]

And further to Qwannas' questions may I add the following - in what direction do you see your career path heading, NG?
And just as importantly, where does your wife hope to see you end up?

I guess with your documented ideals it must be hard to look too far ahead, other than to say "I want to be flying", albeit perhaps for pocket money.
Alternatively, if you want to get onto BIG heavy metal asap, you can always buy your way there by putting your money where your mouth is and lodging a $225,000 bank guarantee with Singapore Airlines for 7 years!

But back to Cruze Power`s "observations" on the first page,
Yet in the splendid year of 2003 we have the highest level of home ownership..
You mean the BANKS have the highest level of mortgaged home loans. Australians have now reached the highest individual average personal level of debt in history!

And another of Cruze power`s comments;-
Let's not look at the level of union membership of workers and the rapid decline in those membership numbers, for fear of realisation of the truth that such an attitude demonstrated above is clearly outdated and out of touch.
Agreed CP - with the "rapid decline" in union membership has become a rapid decline in conditions, a decline that now looks as though it is about to rapidly accelerate as QANTAS steps up its anti-union activities with the full support of the Howard (pro-Bush) government.

It is rather interesting that Wiley's topic has more or less focused on the actuarial aspect, certainly that is an area where one feels an immediate impact..the "hip pocket nerve"!
OTOH, "navy blue singlets, thongs, and hankies tied around the head" also indirectly perhaps reflect on the skill level of the subject, and it is this aspect that SHOULD be of concern to more than just pilots, because it is ultimately going to become a SAFETY issue affecting those travelling with the "navvies", the insurance companies that insure the hulls and "cargo", and ultimately the company itself.

In my opinion there HAS been a "dumbing down" of aircrew. The training now given is NOT of the same (high) quality given some 15 or 20 years ago. Not only the aircraft type conversion courses, but also the annual emergency revals and the associated crew development classes.

Look forward to your reply, NG..

Edit
Here is the post to which New Generation refers in the following reply.
"Perhaps a?@‚?‚“‚™chosomatically induced illness brought on by the recollection of how he, as P.M., introduced the weaponry QANTAS is now employing to bust the ACTU eg. imported foreign scab labour.

Rest assured, Bob, you'll be long remembered by the ACTU for your superb union-busting efforts, along with Bill Kelty."

Nothing untruthful stated there, NG, and certainly nothing that would qualify me as, "sick, heartless, bitter & twisted individual."....a little bent perhaps ;) but then aren't we ALL, in one way or another!!

[Next Generation]

Kaptin M

It is with pity that I read your posting regarding Bob H@wke on another thread.

You are one sick, heartless, bitter & twisted individual.

I hope I never have to suffer the indignity of serving as a member of a crew with you.

The whole world is obviously against you and the rest of your poor hard-done-by cronies.

You and your mates are a pathetic bunch of losers.

[Traffic]

NG

No my son, the pity is all ours. Naivety is something you can grow out of, stupidity is, I am afraid, quite a different matter.

The dumbing down process is obviously further advanced than I had originally thought.

Your second paragraph is actually an excellent description of the very same RJ Hawke you leap to defend. If you had ever met him you would understand it to be true.

He treated everyone with contempt, never thought about anything other than his own self gratification and bent morality whenever it suited his purposes. In a nutshell he deserves the Fires of Hell that most surely await him.

And all this would still be true even if he had no role in the 1989 fiasco.

[Wiley]

Please guys… let’s not get sidetracked with bob’orke-bashing on this thread. I think there’ll be quite enough uncomfortable home truths published about the man once ‘His Supreme Litigiousness’ has gone to meet his maker (who he doesn’t believe in) without our having to buy into it here. (And my guess is that 89 won’t get more than a passing reference among the other facts that will eventually come to light.)
*****
Back to the subject: at 7x7’s suggestion, I repeated my original post on the main PPrune board in Aircrew Notices. It’s been interesting to compare the very few, but well considered responses on that thread to the response here. Either very few people read ‘Aircrew Notices’ or the overseas pilot population have a distressingly low awareness level about this subject.
Repeating myself again, here’s a response I made on ‘Aircrew Notices’ that could well have been an answer to the third last paragraph of Kaptain M’s last post. I agree with his comment – I wish more would look past the simplistic reaction to the ‘navy blue singlets’ comment and look at the deeper implications behind the attention-grabbing title.
*****
My fear is pretty well exactly what ‘ornithopter’ said – I fear the drying up of the supply of committed young aviators capable of doing the job as the job becomes less and less attractive thanks to the ‘death of a thousand cuts’ it is currently suffering at the hands of ‘bright’(!) MBAs who can’t look further ahead than the next six monthly statement. With the deepening reduction in conditions we are seeing worldwide, we will one day see a situation where the job becomes so unattractive that there won’t be enough youngsters out there with the qualifications and the qualities that are required to fill the job today.

So what will the companies do? They’ll lower - or to use a less emotive word, ‘amend’ - the minimum standard required to fill the seats. I know there’ll be people ready to protest loudly that there’ll never be a pilot shortage, and I accept that they’re probably right. However, it’s not a ‘pilot shortage’ per se that I fear, it’s a shortage of what we in the profession class as a pilot today. I fear that if the companies can’t find pilots, they’ll employ people who will not have the skills or experience to do the job without the automatics, so they’ll re-tailor the job where using the automatics all the time becomes mandatory. (You can almost hear the conversation in the Boardroom from here: “We don’t really need pilots anymore. What we need is I.T. graduates to monitor the computers. After all, these pilots, all they do is program computers, don’t they?”)

From there, it’s a short step to the job becoming a clone of the inner city train drivers of today who do no more than open and close the doors. I hear some saying that you’ll always have to have someone capable of manually flying the aircraft, but will you? If there’s not enough people out there with the skills required, the bean counters will be able to prove that it will be cheaper to suffer delays every ‘n’ thousand flights when the degraded automatics demand a cancellation or a diversion where a costly pilot could have completed the flight. The same argument could be made about it being ‘cheaper’ to suffer a hull loss every ‘n’ years than it would be to train pilots to the degree required to reach the standards we today accept as a minimum.

I can see it going the way of the merchant marine. After twenty years, someone will see they may have made a mistake, (as I understand they have acknowledged in the shipping industry), but by then, it will be too late.

[jtr]

NG

MY FINAL POST Don't all cheer at once


Back for more already?

[Snowballs]

We are not the only industry to suffer because of the selfish actions of a naive fringe. The article below was taken from another forum in another professional based industry, where they have a very similar problem. With a "some" poetic license and changing a few words, it fits our industry well


Some pilots behave like scabs in that they make it impossible to act collectively; they function as a selfish, naive, army of the unemployed, they drive down wages, and then they condemn the rest of us who don't adopt their individualist outlook as unjustified complainers or greedy. Essentially, the "I-can't-believe-I-get-paid-to-do-this" pilots sell out to their exploiters in the hopes of getting crumbs from the table.

These pilots are a downtrodden lot, but I wonder if pilots who are committed to change and collective action need to draw a line and declare, 'You are with us or against us.' And, if you are an pilot who undercuts wages, expands the tyranny of flexibility, refuses to help your fellow aviation workers, and then proclaims how wonderful the system is . . . well, what would a serious union movement do?

Some may comment suggesting that at least some pilots, behave like scabs. This is a delicate and thorny issue, which in the current climate of exploitation is raised regularly. One of the problems surrounding discussions of the professional pilot, is that we are all too polite, and let's face, all too embarrassed, to confront the issues openly and frankly.

To work as a professional pilot, is not only to consent to one's own exploitation but also to participate in the unfolding process of the deprofessionalization of pilots more broadly. And this is quite apart from whatever pronouncements one makes on the topic: whether one says, "Professional flying is a bad deal" or "I can't believe they pay me to do this!" it is the flying at a low wage and poor working conditions, that contributes to the devaluation of our profession.

In common parlance, the term "scab" refers to someone who is doing something in relation to union or association activity. A scab is someone who crosses a picket line, who refuses to join a union, who takes a job as a replacement worker for a worker who is out on strike and so on. I think it's obvious that some pilots are not scabs in this way. They are not refusing to join a union or association. Nor are some pilots crossing pickets lines or taking jobs as some did in the late 80's, as replacement workers for full-time union or association members.

So the term can only make sense in a looser way, as a means of calling attention to the ways in which some pilots undercut the salaries of the fully employed and deprofessionalize the industry.

The major problem here is that pilot professional associations do not license their practitioners. There is obviously no social contract with the state, which is what medical doctors clearly have: the state grants them a legal monopoly over the provision of certain services, they agree to police and enforce credentials and licenses: if you practice surgery without a license, the state can, and I hope will prosecute you. Leaving aside the question of state interest, and most of us would agree that the state has a compelling interest in preventing an amateur from performing surgery, but does not have a compelling interest in preventing some pilots from working at very low salaries, there is not even an extra-legal licensing system overseen by the professional associations on behalf of their own members. Nor is there likely to be one, and probably shouldn't be.

The problem with weak and ineffective professional associations, emasculated by the actions of a few, is that they can only hope to achieve an amelioration of horrible working conditions (low wage, lack of benefits) -- from really bad to not quite as bad -- without addressing the broader problem of deprofessionalization..
:8

[hoss]

Navy blue singlets, I dont think so. More like fluoro yellow singlets for OH&S reasons.;)

[halas]

Dessert Digger

The hourly cost for a captain and first officer is $225 an hour.

Oh really?

Let me see, if we take out the cost of training, super, allowances, sick days, annual leave, leave loading, payroll tax, uniforms, transport, layover costs, parking, FBT plus numerous operational costs, l think then that the take home pay for the captain would be $2 and give the first officer 60% of that.

halas

[Qwannas]

New Generation,

Still no response to my post.

You have such a strong and passionate opinion towards this subject (and you are basically on your own with it). I am interested in your flying experience. (It's all relevant!)

I will ask again, but worded differently...simply put

Have you only been flying for a little while? :E

[robair]

The reason thier is so much of this unprofessionalism is directly as a result of the AFAP's behavior since 1989!
They ran a poorly managed stike, lost and as a result shafted the careers of those they were suposed to defend:*
I know many good blokes that had that hapen thanks to the AFAP.
All they seem to do is sit on their aging behinds call poeple names bitch moan groan about the way others stuffed their careers. well gues what ? you stuffed it up yourselfs :uhoh:
Because of this no body wants to join a union that does this for is members. As with most other industries when you don't have union suport the workers do get shafted.
I have heard some stories of the way these "profesionals" have behaved since then and you guys Disgust me:yuk:
You are meant to be proffesional you want to be treated as proffesionals, WELL BEHAVE LIKE ONE!:=
I'm with next generation, I am in this game for the love of it. I try to act as proffessional as I can and yes good thing are hapening for me.
I for one will not be jioning the AFAP and that is comming from a suporter of the union movement:ugh: :uhoh:
Thats my hot air relief for today

[prospector]

Robair,
Very obviously from the next generation, the one that never quite caught up with the way words are spelt correctly. If that level of technology escapes you, just as well all these new aircraft types are push button only.

Prospector

[meanestman]

oh man...robair, that was just a wonderful insight into your deep perspective, masterfully constructed and so eloquently put.
I just cant understand why it feels we're fighting a lost battle sometimes

[DutchRoll]

While this topic strays ever closer to another '89' slugfest, let me say that if the AFAP is going to represent pilot interests, then I would hope it could do so in a much smarter way than it did many years ago. The final outcome in taking on a popular, intransigent Federal Government without widespread public support (and I don't consider your wife and kids as 'widespread public support') was doomed to failure, and any contention that it would've somehow been different without scabs is pure poppycock. Somewhat like everyone standing in the middle of a railway track with the Hawke iron-ore train bearing down at 80km/h with your arms folded and a defiant look on your face (and the driver having no intention of stopping). Blood & guts everywhere, and not a scratch on the train driver.

But back to the topic - a couple of key points:

Firstly, if the public don't value what you do (ie, if you don't enlist and maintain widespread public support) - forget it. Pack up & go home. Public support is one area representative pilot associations need to carefully monitor. It must be courted, not ignored.

Secondly, like it or not, traditional union power is declining. Hey, the Eureka flag is great, but this is not 1854, and 'collective action' is generally only useful when the public sees your group as down-trodden and taken advantage of (can you imagine the public and Government reaction to a lawyers' strike?). Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on how you look at it, airline pilots are not exactly seen as down-trodden paupers, and so it's at the point now where our collective action needs to centre around working intelligently WITH the companies to stop erosion of conditions, not against them. We must certainly be united, but in trying to culture a working relationship rather than an adversarial one.

So pilot associations (or unions or whatever you want to call them) need firstly to nuture widespread support for their profession from the general public. They secondly need smart, astute and eloquent negotiators working with them. We simply can't get away with the 'give us the dosh or we strike' line, but rather are more likely to have success with the 'we'll show you how we can make this into a win-win situation by.....................' approach.

[Sub-Sonic MB]

Yes, one would hope that the flying skills of Robair would be exhibited in a better fashion that either his or her spelling or literal ability.

Dutch Roll seems to imagine the AFAP as like the ACTU type union, membership led by the nose by those who usually haven't lifted a small garden fork in their lives, e.g., Hawke, Kelty, and the like. Crean being another.
Fact is DR, and it has been mentioned numerous times, the AFAP is a member driven union.
But, pilots, being basically stupid and selfish individuals, tend to leave the hard yards to the small band of colleagues, who give of their own time (and their families time) for the benefit of those stupid and selfish individuals.
Then, when things go a little awry, and not quite the way the selfish and stupid individuals believe they should, the same run away, and generally become what we refer to as scabs.

There is nothing worse than ratting on your colleagues, or leaping in from the outside like Ralph the Bong, as he would have us believe he did.

In each case, you become a scab.

Like it or not, and scabs don't, that is what they are.

Now Ralph, in one of his posts, before he edited it, was rather derogatory of me, and accused me of hiding behind anonymity through these pages. Ralph is equally anonymous, except for those of us who happen to know who he is.

He also left in his edited post, a reference to me as a DH, the meaning of which we all know well.

He is entitled to his opinion, and I would defend his right to express it.

But nothing can assuage the fact, he is a scab, and I trust he remembers it when he slings moist cowpats at the rest of us who know that he is.

[Kaptin M]

So Dutch Roll has at last - after 6 pages - revealed the true secret as to what pilots must do to achieve respectable salaries:-
Firstly, if the public don't value what you do (ie, if you don't enlist and maintain widespread public support) - forget it. Pack up & go home. Public support is one area representative pilot associations need to carefully monitor. It must be courted, not ignored.
and,
So pilot associations (or unions or whatever you want to call them) need firstly to nuture widespread support for their profession from the general public. They secondly need smart, astute and eloquent negotiators working with them. We simply can't get away with the 'give us the dosh or we strike' line, but rather are more likely to have success with the 'we'll show you how we can make this into a win-win situation by.....................' approach.

With that in mind, :rolleyes: , we have beaten around the bush quite a bit, but only a couple of posters have scratched the surface as to WHY the occupation of pilot is sui generis...that is unique from say that of a taxi/'bus/truck/train driver.
Anyone care to have a go at listing the differences?

[Sub-Sonic MB]

Just a quick reply before moving on to the topic of this thread.
Ralph, it was you who sent me a PM, and as it happened, I saw it, and replied. You will recall I simply stated the fact you are a scab.
You conveniently forget that your private message was, indeed, expletive in the extreme, so as a private reply, you could hardly expect any sympathy.
I imagine therefore, you must have attempted to influence the moderators of the forum to have me banned, without the courage to state or show your PM to me.
Remember Ralph you are entitled to write what you wish, but don't pretend to claim to be what you are not, and that is rather loose and foul with your language as your PM proved.

Now, to the thread.

In today's media there has been reference to the statements made by the QF CEO which effectively stamps the end union labour in QF, and crtainly in any subsidiary it sets up for "budget" operations.

The days of the navvy singlets and thongs are not far away, and you "professionals" need to get yourselves ready for a fight which was flagged to you during the 80's by the AFAP.

The tragedy is that the QF characters who led the way out of the AFAP in the early 80's are mostly all gone, but their legacy was to weaken the pilot force as an industrial body, and smile at you all from their retirment homes on the Gold Coast.

Hve fun boys and girls.

[Ralph the Bong]

In all honesty SS-MB, I had completely forgoten posting that. As a result I have deleted my post above. My appologies for any embarassment that the above post caused to you. However, I make no appology whatsoever, sunshine for defending myself against your false accusations of my industrial 'pedigree'. When you go around mindlessly calling people "scab", you if fact bring disrepute upon those of '89 who have a sane perspective. Now days, whenever I hear someone use the word 'scab', I immediately wonder if they are a psycopathic fringe dweller. And, thanks to the ravings of cranks like you, I place them in this category until they demonstrate themselves otherwise. You've had your chance to redeem yourself in my eyes and ya blew it. :hmm:

[Sub-Sonic MB]

It seems a bit of a double standard is being allowed here.
I note that my post which proved RTB's denial of a PM to me, and proven to be a lie, has been removed.
RTB also notes it, and decides to edit his post accordingly, now the proof of his duplicity has been removed from the vision of those who read these pages.
So in order to remind him, I re-post his demeaning PM here.
It is edited by me to reflect some standard PPrune desires.


"Ralph the Bong
Still just another number

Click here to order your Personal Title




27th May 2003 00:46
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey You!
Actually, s***head, I am on the 'correct' side of the '89 fence. Posts like the one you made accusing me of 'scabdom' only make you look like a complete idiot. I suggest that you remove it to avoid embarassing yourself further."


Ralph publicly denied in this thread sending this PM.
He is a liar.
All I ask from Woomera is the same right of reply to prove, as I have done, that RTB is a liar.
Now let's get on with the thread.

[Mr. Hat]

This post in Aircrew Notices is the crux of the problem.



Author Topic: Virgin FO Salary and Command prospects
H****n
Still just another number

Click here to order your Personal Title

posted 9th March 2003 03:32
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ilovelonghaul. Low pay? Surely thou jest?
After all you are flying a beautiful aircraft with beautiful hosties who have been known to have the odd pyjama party during overnights at the best hotels in town.

Anyway, flogging over the sunburnt country is not exactly the most hazardous job in the world. Boring maybe - but seldom dangerous. There are over 3000 hopeful pilots on the Virgin books just waiting in the wings (love the pun, in case it went right over your head) and more than happy to fly for a lot less than Virgin pays. Me included.

Ask any grade three instructor at Archerfield if he or she considers 65K low pay!



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MY REPLY



Mr. Hat
Over 150 posts! About time I clicked here and ordered a Personal Title.
posted 12th August 2003 14:56
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H****n - where do I start? Or do I even bother replying to your post that I had previously missed.

Keg & Gnand sum it up perfectly.

How about the chaps that you are teaching at Archerfield go to your boss and say "we'll do it for less than Captain H****n". Afterall you are ACTUALLY getting paid to fly whilst they are paying.

I mean GOD, you get paid to put time in your logbook! These junior Captains don't even know if they will ever get a gig so sure enough they will do your job for less or maybe for free. Not a nice thought hey.

The reality is that the chaps/ettes at Virgin are working very hard. To get where they are today they have done some very hard yards. Therefore the suggestion that their money is too much and that their work is some kind of social activity/party is a little off the mark. The senior guys in your company set the standard as to what is acceptable/reasonable and in a way affect how much money you get paid and what conditions you work under. Much the same as the VB and QF guys set the standard for the rest of us.

Its all relative.

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Posts: 207 | From: Australia | Registered: Dec 2002 | Status: Online! | IP: Logged


If the people at the bottom end don't understand that shafting people above them will affect them in the long run then there is no hope


Mr. Hat

[Ralph the Bong]

No double standard, Pal. Woomera edited my post to remove the nasty little PM that you sent me and I later edited it. I admit that I made an error regarding the postings and was wrong. I send lots of PMs and simply couldn't remember posting one to you. Check the date; months ago. However, out of respect to Woomera, I wwill desist from re-posting your little 'gem'. My last post regaqrding the matter. :ouch:

[DutchRoll]

Back to my original point guys...............

How are we (the professional pilot body) going to convince them (the general public) that we are worth paying for?

Prevent them at all costs from reading PPRUNE for a start, I guess. If every Mr Joe Average decided to peruse some threads on this forum he might be convinced that we are worth LESS than bus drivers.

Bicker all you want, but we have to convince average people to value what we do for a living. And we have to convince our employers likewise, and negotiate intelligently with them. Then and only then will we maintain or improve our working conditions.

[VB_Capt]

subsonic, or is that over the top moronic? Perhaps your matwe kaptain M can pick you upon your spelling and LITERAL ability!! What a laugh. Do you mean LITERARY (as in writing?). I thinkl so. Poor chap. Now that's no typo. Thats just plain dumb. Go him kaptinm, or if he agrees with you, you don't bother. I got it now. Express a vciew the kaptain doesn't like and he goes after spelling etc.

[frangatang]

Hanky on the head.Does this not refer to that bloke in monty pythons flying circus(cant remember his name ) rather than professional pilots!

[Woomera]

I have received a number of complaints about this thread. I previously edited some posts on a case by case basis, which I considered were inappropriate.

If you wish to slug it out via PM's, that's YOUR business. When you choose to post those PM's here, it becomes MY business.

Can we stick to the thread topic and keep the "personalities" out of it?

W

[Sperm Bank]

Franga your observation is correct and very piognant. The original post to start this discussion was balanced and very capable of encouraging debate. However in true antipodean fashion we have managed to by and large deprive the discussion of rational thinking and common sense discussion. Perhaps you may get some idea of the sort of people we have to live and work with down here.

I might add that it is a minority who come in here and through a total lack of any intellectual capacity to engage in constructive dialogue, ruin a good debate. There are many good contributors with far more knowledge and oratory excellence that I can possibly muster, whom I find genuinely interesting reading.

We have a vast cross section of very experienced pilots and some not so, all who have a axe (of sorts) to grind. What I find frustrating is the mind numbing, vacuous diatribe continuosly posted on this forum. Surely we can discuss the past and the future without descending (almost without fail) into a slanging match.

Many of our more experienced pilots down here have a vast repertoire of knowledge to disperse to their peers, alas we are far too good to need some silly old ****** pass on time proven methods and practices. There is on the other hand a few who tend to lay it on a bit thick. The sad part being we can not differentiate between the two, so everyone cops it.

What the future holds in Australian aviation is very uncertain to say the least. Australian pilots these days do not stick together for the purpose of achieving a common objective. It has pretty much become a case of "I'm alright Jack". I look forward to the opinion of my peers in ten years from now (if we are still flying) to see what they have learnt from their actions.

[Sub-Sonic MB]

My dear VB_ Capt, I am always prepared to stand corrected, in the use of the language, as well as anything else.
However in this case, I used "literal", and intended to so do.
I suggest you refer to your copy of The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary on Historical Principles, Volume One, if indeed you continue to believe I am wrong.

I expect all our friends at QF were fixated on the television sets this morning, watching the CEO raising the industrial bar.

I do believe he inferred something about navvy singlets, thongs, and handkerchiefs tied at the corners, without actually saying it.

This will be fun.

[ROKAPE]

Wiley,

Excellent post. Hopefully it makes everyone stop and think for a moment about what may be around the corner, and what we as a pilot body can do to alter the outcome.

A comment on a recent event. The snap one day strike by QANTAS baggage staff. These people are a vital cog in the machine of an airline. A function that is not technical or requiring high levels of ongoing training. They receive good financial benefits and reasonable conditions. The job could arguably be described as unskilled labour. Yet they had the power and the tenacity, backed by a union, to call a snap strike against QANTAS.

Could QANTAS tech crew do the same:confused:
I'm not suggesting they need to, but if a Cathay Pacific management-aircrew relationship situation came about, what would happen?

[Kaptin M]

It`s interesting to sit down and work out the cost of a pilot on an "hourly per pax" basis.
Using the average of the 4 sectors we flew yesterday, the load factor came out at 62% - about 92 pax. The F/O had flown about 620 hours in the previous 12 months, and I, 690. I then divided my pre-tax salary + allowances by 690 to get an hourly rate, and did likewise for co-pi san, and then added the two to get a combined hourly rate for the 2 pilots. Divided this by the number of pax on a one hour flight.

How much would you reckon each passenger pays for BOTH pilots on an hourly basis??
The answer...362 yen - about AUD5 for BOTH!
The cost of a 1 hour ticket here is rarely less than AUD135, and usually $150.

It would be interesting to compare the "hourly per pax" costings for charter and commuter operators to see what percentage of the ticket price is dedicated to pilots.
Any volunteers?

[Wizofoz]

Kap,

Interesting then that you constantly attribute Ansetts downfall to what it paid it's pilots, which was even less than what you get now...

[Winstun]

Using Kaptins equation I get $666 per hour per pax..........tax free uncle sam....:{. And I only got half as many ATPLs as the big man himself...;)

[Ralph the Bong]

$666 ph? Winston,you lucky Devil,you. :ok: At AN B767 FO pakage(inc super&DTA) $125k plus Capt $215k gives total annual tech. crew package of $340k. Divide by hrs. per year 650 gives $523 per hour. Av load factor 70% gives 154 pax per flight. Crew cost per ticket/hr. = $3:40. Av. ticket cost SYD-MEL one way(range $140advance purch. to $250 off the street) of say, $200 for 80mins(block time) or $150 per sector hr. IE: AN tech crew renumeration cost represented 1.9% of ticket cost on an hourly basis. At Kapt. M's company: 3.3%.

My opinon is that the skill set required for Pilotage has changed over the last 30 years. Not meaning that the job is 'easier', just that the advent of automation(FMS, ACARS, FANS ect.) means that different skills, particularly communication skills, are required. I feel that there is a perception within management and the travelling public that a Pilot is increasingly a Machine OPerator . To some extent, this is true. 40 years ago, the communication patterns required to operate a Super Connie served to enhance the Capts. authority; commands and instructions came thick and fast at critical stages of flight. As cockpits became more modern, the patterns of dialogue changed. Less commands are required to fly the Aeroplane and the 'silent cockpit' has unitentionally evolved with the 'dark cockpit' concept. With ACARS and FANS, crews with a problem are no longer alone over dark, stormy seas. Despite automation levels of modern aircraft, the basics of airmanship and experience are still critical factors in flight safety. Modern cockpit communication requires appreciation of the subtleties of communcation, particularly in internation operations and in a cross-cultural crew compliament. This is part of the reason we do CRM training. The professional standards that are still required for this will be difficult to argue to the public and our 'masters' in management, but to do so will be necessary in order to retain the status of the profession.