Lost Examiners

[TonyR]

Has anyone noticed that we are going to loose many very experienced examiners in the UK due to JAR reglulations? Surely we would all like to retain those with thousands of hours and many years flying experience. There are many who have operated as unpaid part time examiners in flying clubs for years just cant afford the money or the time to jump through the JAR hoops.

[BEagle]

Quite so.

Even becoming a PPL examiner is more complicated these days. In the past, to become a BX examiner you needed 1000 hrs FI time plus a recommendation from the CFI and a flight test; with 1500 hours FI time you didn't need the flight test. The authorisation fee covered 2 years. You then had to conduct at least 2 tests per year and pay the re-authorisation fee for the next 2 year period. There was no bar on examining your own students and you only needed a CAA Class II medical certificate.

Now you have to apply to the CAA and receive approval to train as an examiner. That seems fair enough, but surely you should be recommended as well? The hours requirement is now only 1000TT as pilot and a mere 250 hours FI time. Not enough, in my view! Some people have even applied to become examiners without having had the 'No Applied Instrument' restriction removed from their FI rating..... After approval, you then do a 2 day training course, followed by a flight test with an FIE acting as the dummy student. That's fair enough as well. To revalidate the authorisation (which is now for 3 years), you have to conduct at least 2 tests per year; however, in the last year you have to do either an observed or a dummy skill test with an FIE. If it's a dummy, you hire the ac, pay the FIE around £190, then send everything off to the CAA...with a cheque for the approval fee. That'll cost around £300-400 more to you in all than in the days of being a BX examiner. Plus, if you don't apply to re-authorise your GR approval at the same time, you'll have to pay an additional re-authorisation fee for that as well...

You don't have your own set of examination papers any more unless you are the nominated custodian for your RF/FTO. But the biggest problem is that you are not allowed to conduct any test on someone to whom you've given any instruction for the course of training leading to that test. So, if you're a PPL FI at a Club, you will find that it'll be difficult to do much examining if you do a lot of instructing. Alternatively, you'll end up just doing LSTs, LPCs, IMC tests and PPL Skill Tests, plus a few PPL progress checks and safety checks - and not much instructing. So there's not a huge incentive to become an examiner for those with relatively low hours...

If there's one aspect I'd throw out, it'd be the daft 'Observed or Dummy Skill Test' requirement. Fair enough to do it once as the initial check and perhaps for the first re-authorisation... But thereafter it's an utter waste of time and money. It doesn't even count as a 'flight for the re-issue of a licence or rating' for SEP Class revalidation purposes!

So, add the FE approval requirements and costs to those for maintaining your FI rating and the costs become significant. In a 3 year period you'll have to revalidate your FI rating which, if you elect to concentrate more on examining than instructing, could mean that you will find the hours needed for revalidation by experience quite difficult to achieve. So that would mean going to a FI seminar (£250 plus travel and overnight accommodation), flying a revalidation FI skill test (about a day plus hire of the ac and the FIE's £190 fee); for FE re-authorisation another dummy skill test (ac hire plus £190 for the FIE) - and pay the CAA's approval fee for another 3 years. Not forgetting up to 6 JAA Class 1 medical revalidations and a dual training flight with another FI for your SEP Class Rating.....

The paperwork required for even a simple LPC is vastly more complicated now - and you have to keep it for a number of years in your records.

Personally I don't really find this too much hassle as I only teach and examine part-time. I think the 'observed or dummy skill test' is pointless after the first re-authorisation and I also disagree with the JAA doing a volte-face on the FI revalidation requirements. Again, fair enough to make the first revalidation a compulsory FI skill test, but thereafter they should have left things as they were with the '2 out of 3' option unchanged.

[BigEndBob]

It would be interesting through this forum to find out how many examiners have dropped out of the system.

I remember at one CAA seminar the CAA policy was to reduce the number of examiners as they claimed there were too many.
Well they seem to be achieving that.

I know of three 10,000 hour plus, 25 years in light aviation, flying examiners that have almost stopped flying altogether let alone examining, i'm one of them.
We are all in our early forties so not ready for retirment!
We all worked on the same airfield (overcapacity?) but at least they/i was available to test each other students.
A flying club cannot afford to have a CFI that is also an examiner if you are the only club on the field.
How many examiners are prepared to travel to another field to test knowing what the weather is like in the UK.

The old CAA PPL flight test could be done during a last minute weather window. Now it has to be planned ahead, with the possibilty of 2/3 of the working day being lost due to cancellation of test due wx. This only has to happen a couple of times for the examiner that has travelled some distance to test to lose interest.
I rememeber i never use to charge for the old PPL flight test.
It was just my duty as the CFI to ensure my former students were safe and had meet the required standard.
What is being charged now for a test? £***
Also how many clubs still operate a twin, and the erosion of multi experience within the instructor community.

Also i think you should have at least 5,000 hours experience to be considered as a flight examiner. (And not 4500 of them on 747'S)

[Dan Winterland]

As BEagle will remember, I was going to apply to be an examiner, but declined when I realized what it involved. Too many hoops - too small a return.

[noblues]

I know of several examiners who have jacked it in.

How to change a simple system that worked for years into a minefield of hoops and obstacles .....

Will your PPL holder be any safer for all this ? Probably worst off with less experienced FE's .... this is bureaucracy gone mad !

I have 1400 hours instructing (6000+ total), give up my time for almost 'charity' to pass something back into the world of aviation on my precious rare weekends off from work and find the whole world of GA since JAR to have 'lost the plot' of what they are trying to achieve ....

Under CAA rules 10 years ago, which were simple and practical working as a FI or FE was a pleasure ..... many of my colleagues in the commercial world who instruct part time are all of the same option of 'is it worth it anymore' ???????????

CAA = Cancel All Aviation
CAA = Campain Against Aviation

Is flying any safer for all these changes ?

[StrateandLevel]

Since the introduction of JAR-FCL there are more examiners than there were before JAR-FCL. The extra costs have deterred some, but the new rules have attracted others; so when is the great reduction going to take place?

[CaptAirProx]

Exactly, I would like to hear the evidence to confirm that examiner numbers have reduced. We have 8 examiners at my preferred flying club. Far to many. Infact I keep meaning to write to the CAA to ask them to stop approving more of them.

I thought the whole idea of approving an application was to monitor numbers geographically. I give them nil point for our location.

[BigEndBob]

Perhaps examiner numbers have gone up now that charges for the exam seem to be on a par to that charged for a instructor renewal.
Half a dozen exams and the initial costs are paid for, the rest pure profit.
So long has you build yourself a good reputation it could be very lucrative.

[BEagle]

..which is why the attitudes and motivation of those applying for examiner authorisation need to be assessed.

[Send Clowns]

Examiner numbers may be up in some areas, but read the original post of the thread. The comment was that experienced examiners are giving up. I know 3 who have given up some or all privileges, extremely experienced, ex-CAAFEU examiners, at least 2 gave up partly or wholly due to problems of keeping current.

[RodgerF]

Instructors are having to stay longer because of the dearth of jobs. Since getting to FI is so much cheaper now, (no test etc), and the examiner requirements have been reduced so much, then getting an examiner authority becomes a better investment.
Don't think its a good trend.