RAAF PIGS

[Fox3snapshot]

In my daily delivery of the gossip columns from Australia, the ABC is reporting that there is now a serious push to scrap the F111's by 2006, a decade earlier than planned.

Any news from your world EX DD or IWANTMYHUDBACK?

:sad:

This is part of the article as the link was not playing the game.

Plan to scrap F-111s
By Patrick Walters
August 5, 2003

THE RAAF's 35 F-111 warplanes - Australia's front-line strategic strike force - could be retired from service from 2006, a decade earlier than originally planned, if the Government accepts a controversial option put forward by the Defence Department.


F-111: expensive, obsolete


A key issue is whether early retirement for the long-range F-111s could leave a gaping hole in Australia's front-line defences early next decade.

The Government has accepted strategic advice that Australia faces no conventional military threat for the next 15 years and has placed greater emphasis on the defence force working in coalition operations further from Australia's shores.

[BlueWolf]

Mother of God, does this insanity know no bounds? Is it a virus? Did they catch it from us? "Strategic advice" - from who? The Chinese??? The Indonesians??

Perhaps this un-named omniscient psychic adviser, who knows every detail of the world's future for the next fifteen years, would be so good as to share the next few weeks' winning Lotto numbers with us?

[Fox3snapshot]

Agreed, it always made me laugh when our intel cronies talked about the "perceived threat" and based our strategic posture on that with a timeframe of potential attack.....I am sure the US revised its concept of perceived threat after 911, maybe the ADF should too!

:hmm:

[smartman]

Isn't Western defence hinged on provision of a web of credible deterrences?

And isn't it a cop-out for 'Canberra' to suggest that it should focus more on coalition membership - or, put more bluntly, saving yet more money by yet further reliance on Uncle Sam?

And isn't the real issue that, as foreign commentators have often forecast, there is no way that the RAAF's F111 (no matter how much beloved and DSTO-husbanded) would continue to provide a credible deterrent (either fatigue-wise or technology-wise) much beyond 2005. For the last 6 years or so, obvious to most except 'Canberra'. Are we about to see yet more breathtaking DoD decisions - inspired, no doubt, by its home-spun cottage industry of strategic 'thinkers'?

[Fox3snapshot]

Perhaps we will have to get the old Phantom's back to fill the gap again until a credible replacement arrives on the tarmac...

There used to be one parked up at the RAAF Museum Point Cook, might be able to get it cranked up!

:E

[Runaway Gun]

Has Uncle Helen been sharing Kiwi secrets with the far West Island (AKA Australia) again? Amazing what you can come up with whilst rolling the dice and reading the magical cards..

Don't believe anything she says Mr Howard !!

http://www.primeminister.govt.nz/images/closeup.jpg

Once again, beware of dykes with fingers in the hole.

[ftrplt]

The F111 has been an unsustainable dead duck for about the last 2 to 3 years, its just taken this long for the RAAF to be able to convince the politicians.

Its been the pollies that have kept it going this long.

[Runaway Gun]

My main problem is this quote:

The Government has accepted strategic advice that Australia faces no conventional military threat for the next 15 years and has placed greater emphasis on the defence force working in coalition operations further from Australia's shores.

Good on the pollies for trying to get the most out of the Pigs. If Australia needs a new long range strike aircraft, then they should look into it ASAP. However, pretending that the world will be a sunny rainbow paradise full of back-slapping peaceful beautiful people is a very wrong and dangerous perception.

15 years? Mate, I don't even know what I'm going to be doing next week. Let alone a bucketload of crazy terrorists who seem to enjoy learning to fly - but are afraid of landing...
:ugh:

[Fox3snapshot]

Tsk, Tsk....lets not let inter squadron rivalry get in the road of a good story.

Expand on your dead duck philosophy to enlighten us all....

:hmm:

[2port]

Wasn't the whole fleet grounded this time last year after some sort of fuel tank "explosion"? Think the sqn were at Darwin or Tindal when it happened. Feel free to correct the above "facts".

[flyboy007]

I know of some Maachi's for sale at a good rate. Full service history, never been raced or rallied, one careful owner, surround sound etc. Perhaps they could look into buying them to replace the 111's.Apparently after you have owned/operated these jets for a few years any potential threat to the owning country COMPLETELY DISAPPEARS!

[Runaway Gun]

It sounds as though one or two Knucks are upset at being shot down by Pigs....

Although nowhere near as fast, the odd MB339 has done the same. Cheaper too !! ;)

[ftrplt]

F3S,

no rivalry mate, been out of it for a while now.

The fact that there was no F111 involvement in Afghanistan or Iraq should answer your question.

The best capability for the last few years has been the Recce birds, they are useful.

2Port, problems started a while before that.

Runaway Gun, good try.

[Fox3snapshot]

ftrplt,

Well with the amount of strike assets based here alone (12 B1's for example) and throughout the Middle East (F15E's/F16's Kuwait) and Diego Garcia (B52's, B1's), I am not suprised they didn't need the F111's. The FA18's freed up US assets in the initial phases of the ops in Iraq whilst conducting support for their tankers and AWACS platforms and then got in amongst it with CAIRS etc with the troopers.

With complete air superiority in both theatres there was nothing tactical about the arrival and departures of the strikers and fighters that would have justified the need for a low level dash capability. From the post Afghan debriefs that have been released (I might add they are still moving mud and rocks around there on a daily basis as I write) most of the ops were medium/high level and once again negating the need for deep penetration, dash capability. The B1's FL250/FL260 transit and loiter profiles testomony to that.

Off note the F15's and 16s from Kuwait set records for mission length with 4 F15's conducting a mission of 15.5 hours with 10 refuels...... breaks the previous standing record held by an F111F which was on "Eldorado Canyon" the strike on Lybia. I wonder how many refuels he had?

Also of interest is that 2 B1's can deliver more JDAM than a carrier air wing, and the Buff's and Bones delivered 73% of the ordinace in Afghanistan, just to put my comment on the availability of 12 B1's and B52's for both Afghanistan and Iraq into perspective.

You only have to look at Indonesia's response to our purchase of the extra G's, with an official complaint to the International Court because we did not "consult" them on the purchase of said machines. If that isn't a small hint that the F111 establishes itself as a deterent I am not sure what is.

[ORAC]

So trade them all in for a couple of the BUFFs the Spams are putting in storage and buy some decent stand-off weapons like Storm Shadow to go with them then? Not needing to buy as many tankers might even cover the cost..... :p

[Chimbu chuckles]

After all the upgrade programs over the years exactly what part of the F111 is 'old'?

The 'no threat for 15 years' and 'they are getting old/expensive' arguments are, IMHO, just justifications for getting rid of them for short term financial gain.

As Indonesia continues to unravel, leaving in it's wake ample opportunities for Fundamentalist Islam to attempt, through violence, to create a Fundamentalist Pan Islamic State, we will be rueing the day we let the Pigs capabilities go.

The Indonesian archepelego has 1000s of little islands where terrorist training camps quite possibly already exist and I believe Australia will need the capability to strike those on an adhoc basis in the not to distant future. Before we are hit by them in this post 911 world.

Having said that if the Pigs do go, and lets face it real politic always seems to win, what's wrong with F15E as a replacement? Why does Australia always have to go with the untried replacement for aircraft, submarines etc.

A fleet of F15D & E would replace the F18s/111s with some savings in pilot costs etc, etc.

The Indons/Malaysians are getting Migs with all sorts of payload/ range, performance etc....kind of doubt it is with Thailand in mind!

The JSF is FUGLY.

Buy proven, top quality...and/or keep the Pigs.

Chuck

[Fox3snapshot]

In addition to the 10-12 hour average sorty times and 10+ refuels in the Afghan theatre for the F16's, F18's and F15's with light loadouts, tankers offloaded in an average 24 hour period 2 million pounds of gas. The aircraft to shine were the B52 and B1's who had a long loiter time waiting for target vectors. This "compressing of the kill chain" reduces from hours or days in the tarditional bombing model, to minutes. Once again an environment where the F111 would excel.

It is also important to note after these 2 campaigns that the US has decided to pull 23 of its recently mothballed B1's out of storage from AMARC, and added Litening II pods on the B52's.

Statistically the most successful strike fighter in Desert Storm was the F111, with no loss to enemy fire in the highest density of air defence outside of central Europe. The F111F was the backbone of the coalition precision bombing fleet, outnumbering all other types equipped with laser designating equipment. This success is attributed to its combination of range, payload and speed.

The early retirement of the F111 from the US fleet was also politics as funding issues arose with the development and introduction of the B2 and the F22 raptor. To keep McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing) and General Dynamics (now Lockheed Martin) in business concessions had to be made....bye bye F111.

:ugh:

[tony draper]

Oh dear,


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3126023.stm

[Huron Topp]

Guess that 15 years just disappeared in the wink of an eye.:ooh:

[HAL Pilot]

Also of interest is that 2 B1's can deliver more JDAM than a carrier air wing Yeah, and 2 B-2s also cost more than the entire carrier air wing PLUS the carrier.

[Desert Digger]

There're a couple of B-47's in the Mojave which could be cranked up.
Now let's see, got a doctorate in smarts, lots of friends in the SEA area who were at Uni here, work for the Govt., in ONA of course, were all friendly, so - BINGO - no threat for 15 years - in fact, never. Left of Lenin, so who needs a military force.
BAAHHHHH!!!!!!

[Fox3snapshot]

Yes, but they have 21 of them in their inventory now so what is your point.

And since when has cost been an issue with a defence budget of $350 Billion + each year and a bit for mum and the kids! The point I am making is deleivery capability with current assets.

:suspect:

Oh by the way, based on FY2001 figures the Nimitz Class Carriers come it at close to $US 3-4 Billion, then of course there is the operating costs, maintainence (The carrier "Kennedy" just completed a $300 million dollar servicing) and most importantly the 70-80 airframes that need to be plonked onto the deck.



:hmm:

[ORAC]

Firstly, a B-1 isn't a B-2.

Secondly, the unit price of a B-2 wasn't that high, $1.157 billion according to the USAF (http://www.af.mil/news/factsheets/B_2_Spirit.html). Even that's exaggerated because of sunk costs. In May 2001 Northrop put forward a proposal to build 40 new B-2s at a cost of $545 million each.

As a comparison, the construction cost of CVN-76 Ronald Reagan is $4.3 billion. The procurement cost of the air wing is $4 billion+. That's not counting the annual operating costs of $160 million, and the need to store the nuclear fuel for a few millennia afterwards....

(Buying new B-2s would also have saved the tax payer over $100 billion over the next 30 years. The Lexington Institute estimated the cost of keeping the present mixed, and aging, force flying until 2037 as $220 billion. The cost of a pure B-2 bomber force of 100 aircraft, including procurement, over the same period was estimated as $120 billion.)

Academic of course, Congress wasn't interested and they'll need every airframe they've got to make the present fleet last long enough. Sustaining the present bomber force till 2037 is predicated upon only losing a B-1 every five years and a B-52 every decade. The actual loss rate is running at a B-1 every 2 years and a B-52 every 5 years.

So no spare aircraft for sale I'm afraid.....

[Fox3snapshot]

Good to see you back, havn't seen you about too much lately. If there is anyone who can throw some great stats around....you da man!



:ok:

[MarkD]

B-2 vs aircraft carrier is all very well but the CV does do one or two other jobs other than landing big iron on bad guys noggins.

Convoys and amphibious landing air cover are the first two that come to mind... oh dear am I conjuring the ghost of WEBF?

Suffice it to say that a multirole force needs a multi-equipment inventory.

[Belgique]

Talking about Macchis, whatever happened to the old MB326's that the RAAF used to operate? Would've expeceted to see them on the Warbirds circuit by now. But maybe they're in the Strategic War Reserve. Does OZ have one of those?

Believe most of the RAAF's retired Mirage III's are soldiering on in the Paki AirForce.... and the old C130A's are still alive and well (some of them anyway - in Africa and Sth America). P3B's went to Portugal, NZ and Lockheed I believe. Canberra's mostly junked?

Any mil plane-spotters out there with facts?

[ORAC]

markD, HAL started it. :p But I wouldn't worry about it, neither's an option to replace the Pig.........

[Fox3snapshot]

Yup know where they have gone....but don't want to be labelled a spotter......to many people know who I am already and would argue that its too late!

Jobs on, Anoraks on!

Fox3



:8

[ex-knuck]

I suppose the military is like insurance, a waste of money, that is until you really need it.

Getting rid of this asset is as smart as getting rid of the A4's from the RAN, the then defence minister Gordon Scholes said " that it was highly unlikely for Australian service men to need to project it's forces halfway around the world,"

I feel sorry not only for the Australian people but also for all those dedicated and highly skilled folks at Amberley.

You make us proud.

[Runaway Gun]

I agree with you Ex-knuck. If it wasn't for those pesky politicians, Australia wouldn't have given away the A4's, the RAAF wouldn't have lost the Hueys and Chinooks, the RNZAF would be a potent F16 wielding peacekeeping force, and ... oh I could go on all day about this.
I'll bet some crazy smiling dudes in the Indonesian region are partying hard on hearing the news about the Pigs. :mad:

Maybe the Aussie politicians are planning the re-use of the controversial Brisbane Line as was planned during WW2. Apparently it was a line drawn from Brisbane to Melbourne, anything to the North West of it was prepared to be given away to the invaders, and 'we' would retreat to the South East. That includes the loss of the Castlemaine XXXX brewery !!

http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/japsland.jpg

[Fox3snapshot]

In Flight International 5-11 August 2003 :

BAE Systems Australia is to equip RAAF GD F111's with night vision capable cockpit and external lighting.

Am confused as to why contracts are still being issued if they will be withdrwn from service well ahead of the planned retirement date.

:ooh: