Good Ground Briefings vs. Economics

[paulo]

(Sorry, I'm an intruder from next door Private...)

Students want/need good ground briefings. But the typical model doesn't incentivise this - sounds like you guys/gals basically are doing it as solely duty of care.

Could there be a way of paying such that there was some kind of tangible value (i.e. paid for by customer, and thus paid to the instructor) for ground work?

There's more than a few of us who've had the 'instructor rushing to get the keys going' MO, which is not quite the "nothing needs rushing" mindset which I think is right - esp. for PPLs.

[DFC]

Pay the instructor the standard flight hour rate for completing the introduction and exercises 1 and 2. Can be nicely done in an hour without rushing.

Again at the start of the navigation element, pay another standard hour for a proper detailed navigation briefing.

For all the other flight lessons, make the slots 1.5 hours where 1 hour will be flying and pay a decent rate for the flight time that takes into account the extra 30 minute ground work.

However, ensure that the maximum flight length is 1 hour no more. This ensures that instructors don't cut corners on the briefing in order to maximise flight time.

Ensure that a proper system of ground school is in place with instructors being paid an appropriate rate. This will ensure that theory progresses in parallel with flying.

Those are my ideas...

Regards,

DFC

[FlyingForFun]

I've seen one school which has a solution to this problem. They charge X per hour for the aircraft, and Y per hour for the instructor. Dual flying is charged at X+Y, and ground briefings are charged at Y. Was a little bit surprised the first time I was charged for ground briefing, but after thinking about it I realised that it's a much fairer system than most - and, as Paulo says, will almost certainly benefit the student in the long-run!

Having said that, I think I've been lucky in that all of my instructors have been quite happy to give more-than-adequate ground briefings despite not getting paid for them. Pre-flight briefings are usually better than post-flight briefings, but that's because post-flight the instructor is always running late for his/her next lesson! :D

FFF
--------------

[Tinstaafl]

Most of the schools I've worked at either charged for briefings or, more commonly, factored it into the dual hourly rate for the a/c. One place had a different ab-initio rate. Another had a single training rate -dual or solo.

Most places I've worked expected appropriate briefings. Where ever I was CFI it definitely expected.

[Oktas8]

Put good instructors on salaries...

(Running away ducking for cover.)

[G-ALAN]

The flight school I went to had slot times of 1.5hrs min so as to include the ground briefing, they only started charging when the aircraft moved under its own power until shut down :ok: They had far more students than all the surrounding flight schools so what does that say ;)

[cessnababe]

I suggest schools and instructors make a contract with the students to the effect that having booked a slot, they should turn up whatever the weather. If unsuitable for flying they do ground school for which the instructor is paid. This would provide an incentive all round and perhaps reduce the unnecessary number of people getting airborne in marginal conditions "just to get their hours up and earn a crust". There are good safety issues here too.

[essouira]

We do the same as a previous post - there are certain "long brief" points in training where we charge for ground time. However, we are very transparent in our charging structure. So if someone needs a longer than usual brief at any stage we just ask them whether they are happy to pay ground time and then they get charged. It seems to work ok if you have good relationships with students and never rip them off.

[RodgerF]

Taking G-ALANs point even slot times of 1.5 hours is running it tight. Consider that as part of the students time, they have to preflight the aircraft, get in, run the pre-start and startup checklist. That can be 10 minutes gone. Post flight, running the shutdown checklist, back to the club, write up the a/c, write the student notes, give the times to the student. another 5 minutes. This leaves 15 minutes to brief-debrief the student, deal with the refuelling breaks, get a cup of tea sometime.

We use 1h 45m slots where I work and I can keep to schedule. Generally I find long term, that for each hour in the air you need an hour elapsed on the ground.

Everyone on this forum knows how everything with flying takes longer than you expect, yet lessons are scheduled at some places that are just impracticable to to operate.

[FlyingForFun]

Seems to me, from a (ex-) students point of view, that 1.5 hours isn't long enough.

I've trained at two schools. One uses 1.5 hour slots and charges for ground time. For lessons which needed a long briefing, we would book two slots with the instructor, and one with the aircraft.

The other school I've used doesn't have a set slot time, but books in 0.5 hour increments. This school doesn't even quote a rate for ground briefing time (except for study sessions for written exams, which isn't what we're talking about here). Most instructors book 2.0 hours for most lessons. At least one instructor prefers to book longer slots than that, certainly for IMC lessons. By booking longer slots, the only person who looses out is the instructor, especially since she doesn't get paid any more for longer briefings, but she obviously feels that taking the time for the briefings is more important.

Interesting to compare how different schools do this.

FFF
------------

[DFC]

While on the subject of Briefings, I am of the firm belief that for pre-flight briefing, the absolute maximum length is 15 minutes.

Any more than 20 minutes means that the student is going to get too much information and will be reaching brain overload even before the flight starts.

For the longer briefings where 40 to 45 minutes is appropriate, there should be a day if possible between the long briefing and the flight and if this is not possible then atleast a few hours so that the student can relax, assimilate and revise the information.

Unfortunately, at many schools, the student get bombarded with information for 40 minutes covering every last detail of the exercise and then while mulling that round in the brain is expected not only to remember some of the important aspects of the lesson while in the air but also to remember what has been covered up until now during previous lessons.

IMHO, the quality of a briefing is not proportional to the quantity of information.

Regards,

DFC

[rupetime]

If im doing something new i get an extensive briefing - often as long as i need and i certainly dont feel its time im not paying for so keep it short.

If there is anything i want to raise during the lesson my instructor always prefers to discuss it on the ground when im not half listening to him and half flying the aircraft, this has started to lapse now i have the capacity to take more "onboard".

Maybe im just lucky with my school / instructor

[Flyin'Dutch']

My experience is that most instructors are happy to talk flying (and that includes groundinstruction) for most of the day, as long as the student is interested and well-prepared.

May be that on a very busy day there is less opportunity for this, but on most days, in most schools there is plenty of opportunity to talk and learn.

And if there is something which takes a bit of extra time, just be generous and pay for that bit of extra tuition. An extra £20 here and there goes a long way for most instructors and is money well spent, if you compare it with the amount of aviation time it can replace.

FD