View Full Version : toebreaks
On lagrer Aircraft ( 737 and up ) are you able to use one foot to hit both toe breaks ? ( can you reach both rudder pedals by turning your foot sidesways ? ):ok:
simfly
5th Aug 2003, 01:09
TULSA
Its like this with Cessna's etc and above. You have 2 rudder pedals, 1 for each foot. If you apply pressure on the top of the pedal, it works the brakes, so it's possible to have full left ruder, and full right brake, though if you know of anyone trying that make sure you have a camera!!!
SIM
G-ALAN
5th Aug 2003, 01:39
I don't see why you would want to do that anyway it's a recipie for disaster :uhoh: On the aircraft I fly the toe brakes are very stubborn and difficult to reach I wouldn't dare use one foot!! If your question is out of curiosity then no I don't think you could because the rudder pedals are probably too far apart on an A320 or 737, any pros please correct me if I'm wrong :ok:
Notso Fantastic
5th Aug 2003, 02:15
Well it would be a miracle if you could. On a Boeing, your feet disappear down individual foot wells with a rudder pedal adjustment wheel with a darlin' little handle inbetween your shins! Is there a point to this question or is it just idle inquisitiveness?
well , guys thanks for the input. I quess the reason that I ask is because I'm an amputee. I can hit both toe breaks the cesna and in the piper but I was wondering about larger aircraft. It would be hard for me to use both legs because I don't have a knee joint. Any other ideas on how to stop a lager aircraft ( ie. hand break ??)
Notso Fantastic
5th Aug 2003, 05:05
I'm sorry, but are you intending to try and become a large aeroplane pilot? They are not designed for one legged operation- it's not just stopping on landing, what about taxiing? Park brake is not to be used moving. On jets, you have a large control column coming out of the floor between your legs, your feet go into individual footwells, the footbrake is high up over the rudder pedal. I sympathise, but I think the problems are insurmountable.
Onan the Clumsy
5th Aug 2003, 05:17
I heard There is a pilot working for...FedEx I think...who has a similar situation with her arm.
NotSo...
I refuse to believe that it cannot be done. There has to be a way.
GrantT
5th Aug 2003, 09:40
Obviously there would be ways, but it is highly unlikely that an airline would modify an aircraft just for you, it is simply not an efficient thing to do when there are hundreds of other pilots wanting a job that won't be a problem.
As NotSo Fantastic said, i do sympathise for you, but your disability will hinder any prospects of becoming an airline pilot.
"...the problems are insurmountable" ... "your disability will hinder any prospects of becoming an airline pilot."
Not necessarily so.
Tulsa, I'm not out to give you false hope. There are many factors -- personal capabilities, the country in which you live (the rules under which you'll be operating), etc.-- which can affect your ability to achieve your goals.
However, I will tell you that there are amputees in the U.S. who have become professional pilots at many levels, including (1) an amputee who became a Chief Pilot for a corporate service, and (2) a double-amputee who was a pilot for American Airlines.
You won't get there by using one leg to apply force to both toe brakes, though. It sounds like (from learning about others' experiences) you'll need a good prosthetic leg if you plan to pursue a professional aviation career.
Here are some resources for you to check out, if you haven't seen them yet:
http://www.stumps.org/contacts.html
Note the writer's 4th paragraph, and also note the other features of their website.
FAA Medical website (http://www.cami.jccbi.gov/aam-300/amcdfaq.html) - This is the FAA's Medical FAQ page.
This obviously only applies if you're a Yank*: Look at Paragraph 3, and click on the link, to find a local FAA medical examiner in your area. Make an appointment, and find out specifically what an amputee must do to become a professional pilot. *If you're not a Yank, see if your country's aviation authority has a comparable website.
Amputee Fed-Ex pilot (http://www.oakridger.com/stories/120897/aps_fedex.html)
Note that this article mentions FAA waivers for amputations.
Man returns to flying after amputation - Story 1 (http://users.senet.com.au/~wingman/disabled.html)
Man returns to flying after amputation - Story 2 (http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0398/amp.htm)
These are just a few of the examples, so go find your local medical examiner, and see what he/she has to say. Even if you don't live in the U.S., the certification authority in your country most likely has a procedure for medical waivers, so find your local contact and ask them. At least you'll have established a starting point, and can work from there. Best wishes!
McD
Thanks for the info. As far as a medical goes, I already have one as well as a PPL . I do fly with an artifical leg . THanks for the Link I'll check them out today. Any more input from anyone else would be great.
Tulsa
Notso Fantastic
5th Aug 2003, 19:09
The AA pilot got killed in a mountain accident in the Cascades didn't he? The examples you mention were all previously experienced pilots. Foot action required is not just push, it is also lift the whole leg and tip the foot forward whilst pushing for braking. It is not a light action. After 20 minutes of flying an asymmetric aeroplane around in the sim, approaches and asymmetric go-arounds, even my leg can be shaking, and I would define myself as heavily built and powerful.
It sounds brutal, but must there 'be a way'? Sometimes you have to accept some limitations in what you can do- I know I will never make a show ice-dancer, I'm too heavy and dreadful at skating. I will never play tennis competitively. I have no aptitude for languages- should I be able to demand that although I hardly speak French, I should be allowed to become a French translator? Flying big jets is not easy. If such a disabled person was to become a passenger jet flyer, then from the point of view I look from, knowing how difficult it can be and how sensitive you must be in asymmetric flying, then I would never fly with such an airline, and again, I'm sorry if it's cruel, but I would not fly with such a disabled person. It's a path doomed to failure. Are we going to be having partially sighted/deaf people wanting to become fighter pilots because the law may make physical 'discrimination' not allowable?
The AA pilot got killed in a mountain accident in the Cascades didn't he?
Yes, sadly he did. But to clarify, it was a mountain-climbing accident, not a mountain-flying accident, or anything else aviation-related. He was training in preparation for his second Mt. Everest climb (the previous year, he had made it to within 3000' of the summit, but poor weather forced them to turn back, and look to the following year for their next attempt.) He had already climbed Mt. McKinley and other challenging peaks, so I'd say with confidence that his legs were sensitive enough to handle difficult tasks.
And, to clarify further, his death was not caused by his disability; he was hit by a falling boulder, which would have killed anyone in the group, had it hit them. According to a fellow climber, "none of them saw it coming".
As far as his flying, the FAA would not have granted him a medical waiver if he had not fully demonstrated (and I do mean fully -- the FAA is not forgiving in their waivers) all necessary capabilities, e.g. range of motion, control surface movement at appropriate levels, etc.
You say you wouldn't fly with a disabled pilot? How would you know? Apparently, to those who knew him personally (I didn't), you couldn't tell at all, by looking at him, that he was an amputee. He reportedly didn't even walk with a limp.
Just one more reference to the late Ed Hommer -- He was quoted as saying his personal hero was Mother Teresa. "Look at what one 'frail' little lady did for the world."
Doesn't sound like someone who was content to "accept their limitations" -- rather, he focused on his possibilites, and succeeded enormously.
Notso Fantastic
5th Aug 2003, 21:20
McD- I watched an interesting documentary about the AA pilot some time ago. Fascinating, and full credit to him. But he was previously experienced prior to the accident, wasn't he?
I had to accept my limitations when my blood pressure went through the roof- I was grounded for 5+ months. If my ECG shows unsatisfactory performance, again I will be grounded. How does this differ from someone who cannot operate controls satisfactorily? Someone with an upper leg amputation or severe knee disability is not going to be able to do so. They may be able to push a pedal, but toe brake operation would, I'd have thought, be beyond them. The compromise to be able to attempt to do the job should be informed to the passengers- they are giving their wellbeing into the hands of the pilot, and should not have that trust compromised without knowing who is flying them.
Notso - I edited my post to put in the following paragraph, but I did it while you were replying -- sorry! :O
If my above post sounds like I'm completely in disagreement with you -- I'm not. You're right that some disabilities and/or medical conditions preclude a flying career, no matter the desire of the person. I am certainly not advocating that someone be medically certified if they cannot operate controls satisfactorily.
But the point of my posts is that some disabilities do not equate to inability. Aviation authorities around the world have recognized that certain, specific disabilities are no longer disqualifying if the individual can prove their full capability to safely and correctly perform all aspects of the job.
Unfortunately, as you've pointed out and experienced (sorry to hear that!), there are plenty of other medical conditions which can end, or seriously disrupt, our flying career at the drop of a hat.
I suppose the difference is that some medical issues are fully disqualifying, some are waiverable, and some are not limiting at all. It all depends on capability and risk, I suppose.
How do aviation medical authorities view above-the-knee amputees vs. below-the-knee amputees? I don't know, which is why I referred Tulsa to a local medical examiner. It may turn out that Tulsa's disability will in fact be limiting, but Tulsa should at least find out from the correct source.
BTW, you are correct that Ed Hommer was already a certificated pilot before he became an amputee. I do know of other pilots who have received certificates / licenses after becoming an amputee. However, I don't know the Class of medical for which they have qualified.
Best wishes with your blood pressure.
Notso Fantastic
5th Aug 2003, 22:10
Thnks McD- my BP has recovered (chemically) fine. I don't like being the one to scotch someone's hopes, but we all have limitations and aptitudes within us that have to be recognised. I wish this person the best, but not driving a flying machine that others have entrusted their lives to- flying is not a flippant occupation. There are other ways of achieving ambitions- simulators can be hired, progress can be made on lighter aircraft, computer flight sims can be amazingly realistic- I thoroughly enjoy Stuka divebombing in the Crimea myself!
Glad to hear your BP has recovered, NotSo. Thanks also for pointing out some very good alternative opportunities for persons who can't achieve their airline pilot goals.
Tulsa, since your question is really a medical question, I think the topic has run its course in this forum. I'm going to resurrect your thread (from earlier this year) in the Medical & Health forum, with a plea for new and updated advice anyone can offer you.
Here's the link to the other thread:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76932
I'll close this thread, since it's not normally a good idea to have two threads on the same topic.