Productivity Of Qantas Longhaul Pilots

[Don Esson]

Many Qantas pilots have stated on this forum that they have high productivity levels. How do they measure just how productive they are?

Here a couple of questions for those holding the ‘high productivity’ line. Honest answers may not be nice to read but I challenge thinking Qantas pilots to pen their thoughts.

1.. Of the divisor hours in each bid period, how many are straight duty hours as opposed ‘credited hours that include add-ons like night pay, overtime, long-range allowance etc etc. Many industries have foregone such archaic payments and have traded them off for an inclusive salary. How ‘productive’ would long haul pilots be if these old-fashioned add-ons were to be discarded? Do shorthaul pilots or pilots in other large and profitable airlines enjoy these rorts that simply overstate how much work pilots actually do?

2. Qantas operates a number of B767s ( B762’s, RR powered B763’s) solely on domestic routes. A number of the international fleet B763’s also operate days of domestic flying each week. All of this domestic flying is crewed by pilots operating to longhaul rules. Compared with the scheduling rules and limitations for pilots operating 737 and A330 domestic flying, the longhaul pilots limitations are so restrictive that they can only be said to be counter-productive to productivity. No wonder Virgin can operate domestically at much lower costs that Qantas, bearing in mind that dollars per month is only part of the cost equation. Five star hotels and the fancy add-ons are also part of the cost differential..

3..An idea that allows senior captains to fly reduced lines as they near retirement. This can only call for more captains to pick up the slack. How can this be productive?

Get with it before its too late, and move into the jet age and the 21st century. There are many other restrictions that prevent productivity. What is the vocal lot going to do about it? Continue to rip-off the company at the expense of their fellow employees jobs and shareholders? Will the current review tear these restrictions down or is the Management too afraid to shut the airline down for fear of retaliatory action from militant selfish and unrealistic pilots?

Go to it boys!

[Kaptin M]

Hey Don, why don't you direct your Q's to the schedulers?
It is they - not the pilots - who promulgate the rosters.

After all, pilots are only really glorified bus drivers.

[Don Esson]

So Kaptin, 'pilots are only really glorified bus drivers'? Your words, but I thought 'deified' was considered more appropriate than 'glorified'. That said, it's a pity you didn't have pay and conditions more like those endured by the humble bus driver!

Let's get serious for a moment and not get into a sledging match. The schedulers apply and roster/schedule to the rules arising from agreements negotiated by the employer and the union/s representing the employees. It's therefore senseless to ask the schedulers these questions as they cannot speak for the people who demand (I can't say negotiate) the conditions. If there's a scheduler reading this topic, , then he/she could really lift the lid on some of the very restrictive practices and unrealistic working conditions enforced and enyoyed by their flying colleagues.

[Keg]

ROFLMAO @ Don.

1. Don, I once did a bit of a survey about BP206 (about three years ago) and here are some interesting stats from then for you.

Credited hours: 170 (for an eight week period)
Stick hours: 149
Duty Time: 228 hours
Days off: 20

If you work that out by RPKs I think you'll find dollar for dollar that QF 767 drivers are amongst the most conservatively priced in the world.

Admittedly I haven't done the figures recently

2. You're kidding aren't you? We carry 250 passengers on a domestic 767 on a long haul award. The company makes a killing from that. Again, going on RPKs for tech crew costs the 767 is substantially CHEAPER than the QF 737. Going on my ball park figures of what PPRUNE throws up for VB crews then we are pretty close to similar per seat. Five star hotels? That is not a requirement. What IS a requirement is a room that can be made to be dark, quiet, climatically controlled, have meals at times of our choosing (considering that we often arrive on an international flight a weird hours and depart on a domestic flight) and a few other bits and pieces. These are SAFETY issues and if you choose to compromise on any of these then you deserve what you get.

I may be wrong on this one but I'm not sure that the A330 has the same dispensation on rostering that the 737 has.

3. Sorry, that doesn't exist at the moment. They are talking about it but considering that four sim sessions a year is MUCH cheaper than the superannuation that cuts out at 55 then the company is on a winner here! A lot of guys who get out between 55 and 60 would be much more likely to go on if they could fly half a line. It actually GIVES the company more flexibility as it means that they aren't paying 744 superannuation to a bloke under 55 and actually have MORE crew to call on in the event of a disruption

Overall, not a bad wind up but not well thought through. The bit that gives you away though is the 'selfish, unrealistic' bizzo. That and the 'ripping off the company', 'other employees jobs...shareholders...' I am a shareholder as is EVERY other pilot in QF and exactly who's job are we causing the expense of? Besides that, compared to most of the developed world (except for VB and NZ), QF are pretty cheap in all areas of tech crew. Can't wait until QF has been torn down and the next generation views YOU Don as being selfish, unrealistic etc, etc.

Still, you've given me a good chuckle Don which otherwise has made up for a pretty ordianary day. The problem with wind ups though is that to make any headway, you have to make general and emotive statements 'fancy add ons', 'rip off the company', 'challenge', 'thinking QF pilots' etc, etc. Unfortunately, this generally shows the wind up merchant to be lacking substance, wit, decency and any substantial ability to accurately create a discussion.

Have a nice day. :D

Don, you hadn't made your last post when I started typing and so I haven't addressed your second set of comments. If you want to have a discussion though, lets hear what you think the 'restrictive practises' are! I've just rebutted your first few points, lets hear what else you've got or is all just bluster?

BTW, 767 crews have asked for less restrictive scheduling arrangements and more efficient patterns (IE, more flying than what we currently do on a day at work since I'm not sure you understand what the issues really are) since I've been on the aircraft. That makes it well in excess of six years now!

Don, you hadn't made your last post when I started typing and so I haven't addressed your second set of comments. If you want to have a discussion though, lets hear what you think the 'restrictive practises' are! I've just rebutted your first few points, lets hear what else you've got or is all just bluster?

BTW, 767 crews have asked for less restrictive scheduling arrangements and more efficient patterns (IE, more flying than what we currently do on a day at work since I'm not sure you understand what the issues really are) since I've been on the aircraft. That makes it well in excess of six years now!

[huan hung lo]

:rolleyes:

[jakethemuss]

When they let the envious non pilots on to this and other forums the quality of post dropped considerably. Why bother answering when envy and ill informed opinion are the drivers of the question.

Tell us my esteemed learned friend, what are your qualifications and experience? Live a day in my shoes before commenting on my profession.

You question people who have in excess of 20 years in their profession before they gain the rank of Captain. Who daily are the fee earners of the organization. If the Flight Crew don't do what they do then there is no Airline! You don't have much of an Airline without Pilots and Flight Engineers. Who's going to safely transport all those customers?

Go back to your bean counting hole and work out a way to refinance and hedge and pay yourself less, and when you've done that , do it again!

Loser!!!!!!!

[Kaptin M]

pilots are only really glorified bus drivers.

Yes Don, it's true, just ask Bob Hawke. But then again no need to - EVERY non-pilot REALLY knows just how easy it is to be a pilot....geez, mate, look how many movies have been made where good old John Citizen, who has only a few hours flying experience has had to jump into the seat of a Jumbo and save the day!
Piece of p!ss really - but shhh, don't tell too many others about our secret, Don.

But you know the REALLY good part, we get paid SQUILLIONS to do this p!ss-easy job...and then it's only for about 3 hours per day, a couple of times a week. If the Crew Scheduler tries to MAKE us do any more than that, then THE COMPANY stops them.

The Company is full of idiots you know Don - they employ negotiators (on salaries FAR more than the squillions we pilots get) who are so easily bluffed at contract renewal time, that even half-smart men such as yourself, Don, could do a supremely better job!
It's OBVIOUS that you have an in-depth knowledge of these industrial matters, Don, by your deeply thought out and intricate sentence that you composed, when you wrote,
"The schedulers apply and roster/schedule to the rules arising from agreements negotiated by the employer and the union/s representing the employees."
You had ME thinking about that one for hours, Don.
Mate, you're a frickin' GENIUS.

Interesting post, Keg - but wasted on the Dons. I seriously doubt that he'd know the difference between a B767, B744 and an AK30!:ugh:

[Life as a journey]

Gee Don, good answer!

And are we going to hear more from you old mate?

Here's a thought...are you a clerk in accounting, checking Keg and his colleagues' flight duty cards?

[Australia2]

.....err Don;....Don.........are you there ?

The silence is deafening.

[Three Bars]

Yes, Don.

Why didn't you just say, "I hate pilots, particularly Qantas pilots!!"

It would have stated your case much more clearly than the bullsh*t you have already written.

[jakethemuss]

Be advised that administrative staff will not be available on Monday 4th of August due to the Bank Holiday.

I didn't know that Qantas was a bank!!!!!!

(As an aside the lovely Credit Union staff will be working Monday as they don't get the Bank Holiday)

What the!!!!!!

Don, are your initials I.H., M.B., D.C., or T.J.?????


Flight Crew and Ground Engineers do 100% of their job regardless of the number of passengers on aeroplanes. If there are less passengers is that their fault? No! It is the job of the marketing and sales departments to get passengers.

Spend the money, time and energy to get the necessary licences and experience required and you can be part of the Flight Crew fraternity too, Don. Otherwise, don't let your envy consume you, it could be cancerous!

Got to go now and get paid 5hrs 10 mins for a 10 hour day. 3hrs sitting on my arse in BNE. Unproductive, bite me!!!

[Kaptin M]

Be advised that administrative staff will not be available on Monday 4th of August due to the Bank Holiday.

It'll be interesting to see what effect that will have on QF's income earning ability.

And you're right, jake, exactly HOW does QANTAS administrative staff reckon they qualify for a Bank Holiday?
That being the case, there are probably a few male employees who believe that they deserve to take the Queen's Birthday as paid leave too. :uhoh:

[GT-R]

It is pretty sad that longhaul cant even do a perth return two crew.

[VB_Capt]

As a pre 89 (not ansett) pilot I'm often embarrasseed by the input of those like the kap. It is a surprise that he didn't find a connection with 89, but then I suppose he did with the veiled Hawke reference to bus drivers. Perhaps the Qantas pilots ar not the ony ones living in the past when it comes down to conditions.
Nobody is suggesting that it's easy to be ap pilot. It's not, but we're not brain surgeons either.
Sure no bank holidays and I'm disappointed by thhat. Maybe the QF negotiating team could get onto that.
I have QF mates, and they assure me that they are laughing about their contracct. They are unproductive by todays standards and they admit it.
Anybody who says otherwise is having themselves on.

[Mr. Hat]

Its a wind up I know but I just have reply!:ugh:

Bank Holiday? Well there you go. A fine example of what is happening in todays airline. While people up top are bending over backwards to find a new way to screw their pilots on just about anything, the office staff are chasing eachother around with paper planes or forwarding those funny emails that most pilots don't have the time to read anyway.

And the reason why? Pilots like their job and will hold on to them no matter what. Put one of these office types under any pressure at all and they'll quickly find another place to forward emails and make paper planes. Management and beancounters know this and work on it. The same old saying: supply and demand.

A boss of mine once said "mate if that bloke had a day in your shoes he'd f**ken keel over and die".

I tell you what, if the day ever comes that there really is a shortage of pilots I hope I'm around. There will be some people on the backfoot I'll tell you.

As for the 74 captain and the 5 star hotel? Damn right the bloke deserves it- worked his whole damn life like a f**cken slave to get there. Is in charge of 400 people and should he have a bad day will find himself unemployed at the drop of a hat.

The money these guys make is just backpay for the years in GA when they weren't paid at all.

So before the "experts" get too excited, come out a day of door knocking in GA and see what these guys/gals had to do to get there.

Wake up.

Rant over.:mad:

[Don Esson]

What an opportunity has been lost to have a sensible discussion and to bring some facts out into the open. Let's be honest, most of the responses, putting the invective aside, imply that the writers protesteth just a little too much. Has a raw nerve been hit?

No Three Bars and Jake whateveryou're called, I am not consumed by envy or any other of the perjoratives you'd like to sling at me. BTW, what on earth has a Bank Holiday got to do with this topic? Now, as a matter of fact, I was one of your number until I moved on to another calling. I am however concerned that a proud and mighty airline will be torn apart because of the intransigence of particular groups of people who refuse to move on and join the modern world.

The reason why Qantas has set up and expanded Australian Airlines and expanded QantasLink, and putting Jet Connect on the Tasman is very simple: costs are too high and productivtiy too low because of out-dated work rules. You can't get away from the indisputable facts. A group of Australian pilots shot themselves in both feet brilliantly some 14 years ago, and the way things are going another group will be doing the same in the not too distant future. There are many ways to skin a cat as we all know. Likewise, there are many ways to skin a union without having a brawl.

GT_R and VB_Capt are spot on. Why can't a 767 driver operate to the same rules as a 737 driver? Simple, the parties can't agree. Could the lack of agreement be because AIPA would be wanting more than its pound of flesh for such a "concession"? But let's compare like with like. How many pilots do Singapore Airlines schedule for example between Sydney and Singapore? Qantas uses three. There are quite a few that use two without any reduction of safety standards. How may drivers are used by Cathay between Sydney and HK? Qantas uses three, what about Cathay? This is what productiviuty is all about. How many other companies pay the premiums that the Qantas longhaul pilots enjoy? Why do Qantas Captains get paid double the travelling allowance than do other crew members? This is another example of a high cost that affects productivity. The amount may is not at all big but when all of these little numbers are added up, the sum becomes quite significant.

Can we please have some open robust discussion without getting personal? Being snippy only demeans the writers. It reflects poorly on professionals. What some of you don't understand is that the comments are not made against you as individuals. Like all groups of people, individual pilots are mostly hard working and honest, just like all other groups of citizens of the world. In other words, don't take things personally. We all love the industry, else we wouldn't be in it, but this should not discourage or stifle open debate without the fear of being savaged by some apparently unhappy people just because one holds an opposing view.

Lastly, be assured that this is no "wind up".


:) :)

[Ushuaia]

Don Esson,

If you are going to make assertions, at least get your facts correct. Your ignorance of reality makes me wonder if you really were "one of our numbers".... Qantas does NOT schedule three pilots between Sydney and Singapore - it is a two pilot operation. I guarantee you. Ohhh.... you are getting confused with the heavy pilot situation where extra guys are assigned to the crew for SYD-SIN because the next night they are required for SIN-LHR/FRA/CDG ?? So what is the alternative - they WALK to Singapore and meet the other two pilots there? Pax them I hear people saying? Yes, been done, but... ohmygosh, that takes up a commercial seat, ie, lost revenue. And besides, better to have the junior pilot being paid to be a crewmember than being paid to drink red, yes? So how would you do it better?

Or maybe you are confused by SYD-SIN.... via BNE. The total duty time then requires - by law - 3 pilots. Same same the QF10 SIN-SYD... via MEL. Other airlines are no different in that regard when duty time exceeds 11 hrs, not even starting to consider the saftey issues of back of the clock flying.

So how many pilots does CX run between HKG and SYD? You didn't say - don't you know? Well, I do know - and it's NOT two! Oh, and it's not one either!

Trust me, pal - QF rosters two pilots whenever it can. Have YOU ever flown MNL-SYD back of the clock? Or CGK-SYD? Mate - it's two pilots - promise - been there, done that many times, and at the end you are stuffed. Imagine HKG-SYD or HKG-MEL with just two pilots.... Just what does the public want - two totally shagged pilots trying to land in MEL in fog, going around and diverting to SYD?

Give me a break, mate, and go back to whatever your calling in life is now, and let us get on with doing our 10 hour days for 5:10 worth of pay.

[powerbeat12]

jakethemuss said he had to leave so he could get paid 5hr 10 min for a 10 hour day. If your a qf 737 captain, you'll earn a gross amount of approximatley $1144 for that shift or an average of $114.40 per hour for the whole duty pre tax. Obviously, its even more dismal if your an F/O......have people been suggesting that qantas pilots are over paid??? Considering the technical nature of our job and the responsibility that goes with it, remembering of course that we are 'senior officers of the company', such an observation is ridiculous in the extreme.

The situation is pretty simple to me, its not that qf pilots are overpaid, its the fact that VB pilots are being ripped off! and this creates a false illusion that qf pilots are overpaid. What's the solution?? I don't know.....its more complicated than how it appears.

pb

[GT-R]

I think it would make a lot of sense and be beneficial for both the company and the pilots if the 767 could operate domestically to a duty time award similar to short haul.

But, commercially aware isn't exactly the phrase that comes to mind when one thinks about 767 drivers.

[jakethemuss]

Now Trevor, I was not getting personal.

Just because other people do something, does that make it right? Or SAFE!

Talk to any 737 pilot who has done a SYD-PER-SYD and worn a delay to take the TOD out to 14hrs. How did you feel on arrival SYD? What if you then had to divert?

Someone has to maintain the standard. How would you like that Perth return done? The CAO48 exemption is a poor way of rostering pilots at times and damn unsafe. Particularly when used in conjunction with an incentive based pay system. Gee, I don't feel that flash but if I don't go it will cost me $500. What will I do?

You, Big Don, are going to hate FRMS rostering when time zone changes are taken into effect if you don't like the current system.

Unproductive, Bite Me!!!!

[kym]

Don, you are just another armchair CEO.......

Dons portrait ========>:8

[Sperm Bank]

Don... I don't belive the QF lads are getting paid too much, not domestically anyway. Here at DJ we get less than we deserve but that is what we accepted, many of us for reasons of wanting to return home from OS. Some suggest we are championing the stampede toward lower pay. I don't necessarily agree but with so many young pilots getting onto their first jet they do not comprehend the value of the job just yet. They just want to fly a jet!

It is unfortunately very true that many desk drivers are inherrently jealous and green with envy at the average airline pilot. They have little or no comprehension of what is required on a daily basis or on an annual basis for that matter.

It is interesting to note that quite a few of the more sucessful airlines around the world still continue to pay their pilots very good money. They also place a significant value on the responsibility and commitment to task by the average professional pilot.

If any "bus driver" could just assume our position without too much hassle, I'm sure they would allow any jo bloggs off the street to have a go. Alas they don't!

"Cost savings" and "restructuring" are tired outdated ramblings of incompetent managers. Qantas' problems have nothing to do with their pilots wages. I would even suggest they are more than likely the most cost efficient part of the entire operation. Minimal sick days, rarely if ever late at sign on, always looking for maximum efficiencies enroute if possible, looking for a smooth ride for their pax, conducting themselves as professionals and the list goes on and on. I think the money airline pilot's get paid is a very small price to pay for the amount of return the company gets.

Police forces, Nurses and teachers to name a few occupations are all struggling to keep the job attractive due mainly to poor pay and conditions which have steadily been erodoed over the years. As a result all three professions are struggling to get the number of QUALITY people they require to fill the positions. I digress, but I'm sure you get the jist!

I don't know where they bottom of the pit lies but I sincerely hope they (management) don't push us too much further. They will be seen to be their own worst enemy in years to come.

[Keg]

Good try GT-R. The extensions to the tour of duty with the B767 to do things like SYD-PER-SYD have been knocked back by CASA- and that was with a request for daylight only etc, etc, etc.

CASA ain't handing out dispensations granted during '89 for a number of reasons but you'd have to check with them why!

Don, you really crack me up but I just can't resist.

Question 1. Not 'the parties', but CASA. He shoots...he misses.
Question 2. Becomes moot in the face of the above.
Question 3. Asked and answered. Believe me, I've done SYD-SIN MANY times as a two man crew. Occaisionally I've done it with the 'inefficient' S/O (who we needed for the next flights service SIN-BOM-SIN (13:50 tour of duty)) down the back.
Question 4. Asked and answered. CX uses 3.
Quesion 5. Lets compare some of them apples then. UAL are on a lot more than us. CX are on a lot more than us. BA are on a lot more than us. SIA are on a lot more than us. Lufthansa are on a lot more than us (and a bigger monopoly too). Air France are on a lot more than us. American are on a lot more than us. ANZ are on about 10% less than us (depending on the exchange rate). Vietham are on more than us (or so Slasher reckons). Not sure about Thai. Anyone else you'd like to do a comparison with? Garuda maybe? Aviation in Australia if you're saying that we're overpaid compared to the Indonesians! :rolleyes:
Question 6. Because when it all goes bad up the track, the skipper is the one who normally spends a LOT of time on the phone talking to the company. Thats why they get the extra DTA.

OK, so you claim you aren't winding up but you are REALLY struggling to come up with a decent and sustainable line of discussion. Perhaps it's better to just admit that 'geez, they aren't as bad as I thought out'. As for serious discussion, I note that you haven't responded to any of my points on the first page.

Have a nice day.

[Mr. Hat]

Spot on Sperm Bank. The reality is that we all take tremendous pride in what we do from the 210 captain up to the 74 captain.

People in other professions do the bare minimum and simply unplug at 4:59.

The "high" pay can also be looked at as compensating for the insecurity of the job. In which other profession is your job constantly on the line?

Lets be real. These chaps/etts are in charge of some serious machinery let alone all the souls on board.

What are we saying here? Put the crew in some dodgy motel and give them some 2 minute noodles to eat for dinner? I think not. This has been done by most airline guys ad-nauseum in GA.

Pay your dammend respect to the guys that spent their entire 20's using their small tax returns to pay for their next renewal whilst their mates in the city had 10 years of living life and getting paid the big bucks. And so what if the guys are staying in the 5 star hotel.

Let me guess they should check out of the motel early so they can help wipe down a boeing and maybe put out the rubbish for the office staff.

BE REAL.

Hat

[Colonel Blink]

and suspect you have all been swept in by it! Me thinks Don is just 5hit stirring

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Don. (not getting personal here but), your original questions need a reply.

I don't know where you are getting your information from but here goes.

Your "rorts".....

Night credits: Longhaul pilots do NOT get paid more for night flying.

What happens is that the night flying they do gets a higher pattern credit. It means they get to the divisor with less flying.
It is designed to give those flying more at night more time off than those flying predominantly during the day. It is one of the reasons why the 744 pilots have more time off than 767 pilots, in that they generally do more "back of the clock" flying.

This seems to me to be a sensible way to do things as it builds in allowances for tiring flying. It is not more money and you only get the credit for the flying you actually do.

Longhaul allowance: Does not exist in QF. Get your facts straight on that one.

Overtime: Works on the basis that long sectors, anything up to 17 hours, are more onerous than an 8 hours sector. Make sense to me and once again, if you don't fly it, you don't get it. How is that a "rort"?

5 star hotels. Actually the contract calls for 4 or 5 star hotels, which in reality is a nebulous concept. The basic requirements are for a clean, quiet room away from airport noise. Due to the large time zone changes involved in long haul flying, there is also a requirement for 24 room service or a 24 hour coffee shop. That tends to cut out your local Flag Inn.

Crews (including cabin crews who stay at the same hotels) tend to spend up to 6 months of their working year away from home so a comfortable hotel is not too much to ask. The standard does vary enormously from port to port, but the basic requirements are there for valid reasons. (Crew rest). As a side issue, the airlines negotiate contracts on these rooms that bring the cost to the airline down to about what you and I would pay for a motel room in a capital city anyway.

Management stay in the same hotels (with a 50% premium on the daily allowances paid to crews) so they really don't have much of a case for lowering that standard.

Your assertations re crew composition have been blown out of the water so we are left with the CASA dispensations granted to the airlines circa 1989.

As KEG has pointed out, CASA are no longer in the business of handing out carte blanche to airlines on safety related matters such as duty limitations. The shorthaul pilots can indeed fly SYD-PER-SYD overnight whereas the longhaul pilots cannot. The fact of that matter is that it is now recognised as an onerous duty period and is now only rostered as such in daytime. Some sense prevailed there.

So where are the rorts? Pilots get paid for the flying they do. 767 crews doing a four sector SYD-OOL-SYD shuttle routinely fly over 1000 passengers a day for 6.15 credited hours (for a 9.15 duty period) at longhaul rates. It works out to around 90% of what a QF 737 crew would be paid for the same day. You do the seat/km maths. VB_Capt... you do that same equation at your rates and see what you get.

That particular example is getting selective I know but do not tell me I am unproductive and am rorting the company. I am not.

Get your facts straight Don.

[balance]

Methinks you have been set straight, Don.

Not that you needed it, because I don't believe that anyone could possibly think as illogically as you clearly do, or were you just interested in winding a little?

BTW, well stated Sperm.

[dghob]

Mr Hat,

To quote you: "People in other professions do the bare minimum and simply unplug at 4:59."

Coming up with half-witted stuff like that does nothing to advance anyone's cause. Of course professional pilots work hard and many sacrificed a lot to get there but so did many others in other professions my friend.

[amos2]

You say you were one of our number until you "moved on" Don!

Moved sideways perhaps?

Seen a bit of that in my time!...poor sods!

They never do get over it!

[lambsie]

I'm not paid for what I do, I'm paid for what I CAN do!:cool:

[ITCZ]

Lets leave all the 'morality' and 'deservedness' and 'skilled professional' and all the other altruistic BS out of it.

QF drivers get good money and haven't been sucked into '21st century' wage modernisation BECAUSE THEY CAN.

Every other profession and job area that has been 'rationalised' and made more 'productive' or 'competitive' or any of that other Dawsons Creek TAFE and sheep dipping MBA palaver, has been PUSHED by economic forces to do so.

It is good to see that SOME pilots in this country are on an improving or stable wicket. QF boys and girls, keep your archaic conditions as a benchmark of what pilots can get.

[balance]

ITCZ.

I know of Plumbers, Electricians, and Plasterers that make more money than VB Pilots. Almost as much as QF Pilots. I know of builders who most certainly make more (lots more!) than QF Pilots.

By your assertion, this is somehow logical? I'm not sure that you have witnessed those "economic forces" you pontificate about. And sorry mate, but to those QF Pilots whose pay dumb sh1ts like you are trying to rationalise downwards, it is entirely a moral issue.

Jesus, this 21st Century world is strange sometimes.....

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Balance... I may be wrong but I don't think ITCZ was trying to say that...

[Mr. Hat]

dghob
Firstly keep remarks/insults like "halfwit" to yourself. You do not know me and are therefore not qualified to make the comment.

Secondly this is a forum for professionals so its best we leave that sort of talk elsewhere.

Next to come: "my friend" - you are not my friend and I am not yours.

To reply to the substance part of your comment. Most people, in my view, are doing jobs that they don't like and at the end of the day are just a means to an end. I have worked many a job before getting behind the handlebars of an aeroplane and have seen a vast difference in company cultures and employee attitudes toward their employers and their jobs. This is my experience and therefore my opinion which I am entitled to.

I'm more interested in your opinions on qf pilot conditions. Do you think that the pilots in Australia's largest airline are being overpaid or enjoy excessive benefits?

It is always easy to look up to someone above you and say "oh look he is whinging about getting a pay cut from x dollars to y dollars... god he's getting 10 times what I get how dare he whinge!". Its not so easy when someone below you says the same about you.

At the end of the day what is life really about? Earning nothing working hard and making a few select people rich?

I say work HARD get paid accordingly and the overall company culture and employee attitude will reflect in the product you deliver.

Have a good day.

Mr. Hat.

[The The]

For all the qf wage knockers,

A virgin f/o on the top rate will earn more than the top rate qf 737 f/o flying 60 stick hrs per mth (as has been the case for most f/o's for quite a while).

[Tankengine]

Don,
I have been away and others have replied in various ways.
I have flown all Qantas types except Airbus. [not a s#$^]

Comparing like with Singapore Airlines SIN-LHR, 744 ;
SIA : 2 Captains, 2 First Officers
QF : 1 Captain, 1 First Officer, 2 Second Officers
Stay in same Hotel.
[Check payrates and decide who you think is more productive!!]

Comparing with Virgin, 737, we have higher pay rates but also do more hours per year and use CAO dispensations gaining back some productivity.

The company has made the 767 what it is.

Regards,
THOMAS

[oicur12]

At a recent BBQ attended by an SQ 777 captain and a QF 747 F/O, it became apparent that the QF fo netted more per month than the SQ skipper.

This is not representative of all crew from both carriers as incriments vary but interesting none the less.

Anyone can name a couple of carriers that pay more than QF but I could name you hundreds that pay considerably less.

At the end of the day, QF enjoys a very low turn over of crew compared to a lot of carriers. Why is that.

[Don Esson]

There is so much mis-information floating around it's hardly worth commenting upon but here's a couple of thoughts for dear old Keg and the Cute One. It is true that a two man crew can operate SY-SN but isn't there a resrtriction on the departure times from SY. Also gents, get an update on what can be planned on the A330. It's not nearly as restrictive as the 767 two pilot limits, and was def not signed off by CASA in 1988/9. Also, tell the company that you don't want any extra pay for night flying - they will love you. On the subject of money, others may get more than Qantas pilots but they also do a lot more with less bur for not much more money. I'm not suggesting that you are paid too much, just asking if you couldn't do more for the same, and to get real with the allowances and premiums.

On hours, a lot of the Qantas engineers who maintain the equipment that you fly work 12 hour shifts. What's more, there's no home transport. Does this mean that a critical repair job done by a couple of engineers toward the end of a 12 hour shift is unsafe? If not, then why would a Perth overnight be unsafe?

As for allowances, suggest you check with any Qantas manager. He or she will tell you that, unlike all crew, ground staff from the top to a fairly junior level are paid actual expenses when on Duty Travel. Fixed allowances as paid to crew and asserted 50% loadings are a thing of the past. What's more, these staff are not paid any Daily Travelling Allowance on top of any meal allowances, unlike all crew. And since when did any captain spend his money on phone calls to Sydney for the company? Have the toll free numbersand office facilities been withdrawn? Do they pay for the Satphone??

Cheers.

[ExcessData]

On hours, a lot of the Qantas engineers who maintain the equipment that you fly work 12 hour shifts. What's more, there's no home transport. Does this mean that a critical repair job done by a couple of engineers toward the end of a 12 hour shift is unsafe? If not, then why would a Perth overnight be unsafe?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would've thought that most (if not possibly all) of those 12 hours worked by the engineers would not be in a pressurised, rareified hull moving at hundreds of nautical miles/hr at nosebleed altitudes, where a constant scan of rudimentary (compared to our own) orientation instruments is all they to distinguish up from down. When their 'critical repair job' gets too much, they can just drop their tools, step outside and take a breath of fresh air - no such luck for the tech crew, who, when not in a control seat, are in a bunk only metres away from the flight deck, still in that same dry, noisy, turbulent and pressurised climate. Nice and dramatic, I know, but that's the reality of the job, and one which I believe clearly distinguishes the role of tech crew from that of any other manager, engineer or office worker - any of those guys can put their work down and step outside if it gets to much, the meaning of 'time-critical' for them isn't quite what it is for flight crew. To that end, it would seem to me that home transport is completely reasonable at the end of one of these 'shifts'.

Nothing to do with QF vs the world, producitivity, 89 etc, but a response to one of your points.

Interesting thread, nontheless.

Cheers, ED

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Wrong again Don.

The A330 is currently operating under the short haul award. The same award that was spawned in the aftermath of 89.

When it starts operating predominantly long haul routes, it will probably be operated under long haul rules. (not a given, but probably...)

Who cares what the engineers do on a 12 hour night shift? Since when are we discussing them, their work and work rules? Lets discuss the schedulers and the dispatchers and the fruit factory process workers if you want. Their place and type of work are in no way related to a pilots.. However... since you did bring it up... you can bet all of them are being paid extra for that 12 hour night shift.

You obviously didn't read what I posted. I will say it again. Long haul pilots are NOT paid extra for night flying. Check what I wrote.

You are (again) misinformed about home transport. Doing a 12 hour, all nighter doesn't necessarily get you a taxi home. I won't go into the rules here but there are good reasons for that condition

With regard to allowances, Longhaul pilots will in all probability be on the DTA system soon as well, saving the company the admin costs. So what premiums..?

No-one said a SYD-PER-SYD overnight was unsafe. But as a passenger put yourself in the position of having a choice between two airliners leaving at the same time. One has a crew just arrived from a sleep at the hotel to fly to Sydney, the other has crew that just flew 5 hours from Syd and is facing the return leg starting at 0200 body clock time. They probably didn't sleep before departure and may have been awake for 24 hours by the time they land.

Which one will passenger Don get on?

It is well known that the domestic airlines post 89 saw an opportunity and cobbled together a dispensation based on the most onerous combination of existing rules from other juristictions they could find and shoved them down the throat of a pilot body unwilling and unable to fight it.

You are the one spouting the uninformed misinformation.

It is also high time that pilots in this forum stopped trying to bring down standard conditions of other company's in a stupid attempt to prove how efficient they are. The management, of which Don has revealed his spots... are LAUGHING!!!

[longjohn]

What a load of crap.

Some people really do need to get a grip on what it is they really do.

It is not brain surgery.

You get paid what you are worth, if you no like, you leave.

If Joe Bloggs gets more, then good luck to him.

Finally, I cannot believe that a QF F/O and a SQ skipper got together at a party and discussed pay rates.....did they compare dick sizes also?

It is no wonder many people do not understand pilots. Thank god they put it down to 'mystery' of the job.

I:yuk:

[OneDotLow]

Well said Borg!

just the jealousy of a few methinks...

allowances are not an "addition to your pay" either. They are part of an overall package, and believe it or not, every year that I have had allowances on my tax return, I have always been paid less than what the ATO declare a "fair amount" for the ports i visit.

Don, it has been my experience that the captains have only been able to use the satfone effectively whilst onboard the aircraft. If you know anohter way, then please let us know... wrt tollfree numbers and office facilities... keep dreaming pal!! Every time i have called the front desk to be put thru to ops, they have billed my room! Even calls to the doctor are put on the room bill. All at hotel rates. And to answer your original 2nd question re longhaul rostering... rules that allow me to fly 10 SYD-MEL sectors in 3 days are not overly restrictive...

To echo what others have said on this forum... what is the problem with all you people who seek to bring down the wages and conditions that others work hard for!? I believe they call it "tall poppy syndrome"...

[oicur12]

peckerhead,

Yeah. pilots at a party comparing salary.

Pretty rare aint it.

[Jetsbest]

I for one can believe that the BBQ comparisons of pay occurred. But, possibly, what was not clarified is peripheral stuff which amount to disposable income at the end; tax rates, housing allowances, expat travel priveleges etc? Balance the package and I find it hard to imagine a QF F/O making more than a SQ Capt.

I thought I was wrong once, but it turns out I was mistaken:O

[Reverend Doctor Doug]

I would like to quote the most influential CEO of the 20th century when he said:

"the only people that can provide job security are your customers."

Until you guys stop worrying about who has the biggest dick and understand what that statement means, your company is great danger of not existing in 10 years.

Cop U Later

The Rev

[Boney]

Those of you out there that are PPL's etc., please take note .....

This is called PROFESSIONAL pilots rumour network for a reason.

It is a network for those who derive their main income from flying these things and those who are in the process of doing so.

In saying that, particularly those who are not even PPL or not even considering a career flying - sorry this site is not for you.

I may only be yet another GA loser, but I find it annoying that muppets who have no direct "WORKING' experience being big authorities on Airline pay/productivity/conditions.

Most (surely?) GA drivers like me understand that the majority of Airline drivers have put up with years of crap before finally making it to a position where they can actually start to reel in some reward for their efforts/ankle holding.

Hey, if it is so damn good, for so little actual work, have a go your self.

It is just so easy.

Just spend $70,000 (and I mean you ..... not your Daddy). Your job prospects will be difficult and expect to spend the first 1-3 years working 50 hrs.+(duty time) for less money than a 16 yr old gets for pushing trollies at Woolies. Then maybe if you achieve all this by age 30 (preferably 25), then you probably have a 10-20% chance of making the "big time".

If this sounds a bit too hard, you are probably right.

If you are not a qualified driver (or in the process of ....) then maybe better not to log onto this forum, and just keep reading "Austalian Flying" so they can keep telling you about the HUGE pilot shortage that they have said has been coming since the Wright Bros first flew.

Boney

[VB_Capt]

Boney, You have a huge attitude/ego problem. Grow up before somebody sits you on your ar$e.If you are a QF pilot, then you do the cause no good whatever

[lever_in_lights_out]

knowing quite a few people in the industrial relations world, I have been fortunate to be privy to many a discussion on pay and conditions. If QF long haul pilots are happy with what they are getting and the company agrees, I can't see the problem. Whether they are deserving is irrelevant to me if all parties involved are happy with the status quo! If the company is getting ripped off (not sure they are in this case) then the company should negotiate new conditions. We ALL want better pay and conditions, why fall on your sword if you have too!!

[Cap10 Caveman]

VB_Capt, go back and read Boney's post again, he mentioned twice that he is a GA driver - not QF.

I hope you read your checklist more carefully than you read this forum.

Cheers

CC

[ITCZ]

balance,

your parents must be pleased that you have finally mastered the art of reading and writing.

I bet they look forward to the day that you make the next big step and comprehend what it is that you are reading.

to make it easy for you dearie, ITCZ=jet RPT pilot. ITCZ not QF. ITCZ not VB. ITCZ not management. ITCZ like it that other industry colleagues making a reasonable living out of aviation.

If you ever lose your medical, balance, you show all the necessary qualities of making a successful aviation manager. Reads but doesn't comprehend, hears but doesn't listen, and expends a lot of energy going in the wrong direction after hearing 10% of the argument, and being bloody rude to sensible people nearby while he/she is at it.

[GT-R]

I would have thought those with an ego would have a username like VB_Capt ?:rolleyes:

[balance]

ITCZ=jet RPT pilot. ITCZ not QF.

Convergance old buddy. Apologies if you believe I got your post wrong. Truth is, I didn't. You think QF pilots salaries are stable? Now way hose.

We used to be in perhaps the top 1% of wage earners. Now I'd be surprised if we are in the top 30%. Our salary has not kept pace with those plumbers, plasterers and builders that I talk about.

My brother in law is an ordinary plasterer. He brings home almost as much as me. Whichever way you look at it, thats insane.

CZ, you aren't from QF as you say, so you haven't been there to witness this slow downward trend. And now, the beancounters are talking war, as though we still earn too much?

THIS IS a weird world.....

[VB_Capt]

I wish QF pilots all the best when it comes to retaining their hard won conditions, particuilarly 737 guys. If they take a hit, then we can never hope to get up a bit, let alone a lot. But I can see Dixon using our rates to try to get you guys down . That's the danger as I see it.
Managements will always screw their workers. It doesn't matter how well they're performing or how good they aree. Can't and won't comment on the rorts or alleged rorts. In this age of the less the workers get the more the managers get, it''s easy to see why the managers try to screw us down. That's life. I don't like it but I can't control it. What do we do go on strike?

[Keg]

Well there are at least some fairly high up the totem pole at QF who seem happy with the costs of QF tech crew- and thats all I'm going to say about that! Sure, there probably are ways that we can all be more efficient- most 767 drivers would LOVE to be more efficient and get more time at home- but no reason to be getting all antsy about it the way that Don has. :D

[VB_Capt]

Caveman you are correct. The rest stands tho

[VB_Capt]

lever in etc...I agree that if the crews and managemnet are happy then why should it change. The problem there is that the management are never happy if theyre paying anything and Dixon will use Virgin as the benchmark and try to get his workers down three. They'd have us working for nothing if they could and here were damn near are working for nothing.

[EPIRB]

Unfortunately what QF management seem to forget is that due to the CAO 48 dispensation, they don't have to employ as many pilots and I have heard that due to this the QF 737 pilots are actually cheaper than the Virgin ones.

[invertedlandings]

Keg- couldn't agree with you more...more time at home, decent stick hours per day away- maybe a CAO 48 dispo so we can do things like SYD-PER-SYD (I know the A330 is doing a few of those) or SYD-DN-SYD..etc
My biggest wish for QF management is that they stop looking at cost reduction as start having a good look at revenue increase- looking at new opurtunites to GROW instead of cost cutting...

PS Why do the call Geoff Dixons office the art gallery??
Because it is wher the big picture is...

[oicur12]

QF - grow.

I think QF has grown more than any other airline on the planet in the last 2 years.

[N2000]

Guys

Sorry to be doing a bit of thread drift...........back onto the topic!

How many hours are the QF B744 guys and gals flying at the moment?

N2000

(Presently projected 893 hours for the rolling 12 months Sep 02 to Aug 03, BA B744)

[*Lancer*]

oicur12, it would be nice to think that, but hard to believe when we have pulled out of Buenos Aires, Chicago, Rome, Vancouver, Mumbai, Vanuatu, and Port Moresby in that time... ordering new planes and getting pilots is only one part of it.

Don't forget that Emirates has just placed the largest aircraft order in HISTORY.

Qantas pilots generally have less income than pilots with other comparitive airlines (especially when fringe/living benefits are included). Short Haul the 767 crews are fantastic value, and Long Haul we're one of only 3 airlines worldwide to employ Second Officers (others are KLM, and Cathay)! Average SOs are paid less than half that of the average FO - let alone Captain. AND the FOs have to train to, and maintain command proficiency.

N2000, SOs divisor is at 80 hours per month, I think CPT/FO is 87.5 (but not certain on that). So slightly more than yourself

Lancer

[Keg]

Lancer, that's credit hours though.

N2000, last time I did the maths it worked out to be abotu 850ish (plus or minus 50). It is certainly not uncommon to hear that some people keep running up against the 900 hours- especially up beginning of last year when QF kept asking for leave back!

[oicur12]

Lancer,

The comparative airlines you mention do not come into the picture – KLM and Cathay. The dreaded infidels in HR will not be using these carriers when benchmarking your salary.

They will be using carriers such as Cathay Freighters where an Oz based pilot is on considerably less than a QF pilot, and based Cathay crews who are on similar pay to QF. SQ Mauritius crew in BNE and PER would also come into the picture – once again on less than QF.

[huan hung lo]

So many experts such melodrama oh the gloom!
Whats a poor boy to do?

[invertedlandings]

hey wish you you were hung low... what you can do is f@#K off for a start...keep your dribble to yourself.
Keg (it was good to meet you the other day too..)- I have averaged 600hrs a year for the last three ( only 50 sticks hrs a month) as a 76 F/o- but I mainly do domestic- I presume those senior enough would be up around 65... not really efficient, mainly due to duty hour limitations (bring on 5.40 with no DPA).

[Keg]

G'day inverted. Which day were you on? I talked PPRUNE on a couple of days! ;) PM me if you want to keep it quiet!

Those figures I quoted above were for the 744 drivers when I looked at the figures a couple of years back. Due to the company not being able to roster us 767 drivers as we'd like, I averaged about 600-650 as a domestic driver and about 700 now that I'm more senior- although those odd weeks will put paid to that!! :D

[huan hung lo]

Thats not very nice Invertedlandings!

You big 767 hotshot you!

[Australia2]

Keg,
As you said, never seem to hear pilots whinging about low productivity.....WHATEVER THE AIRLINE !!!
Better productivity, more time at home, better lifestyle.
After reading this topic.......... what hope do we all have collectively !!!

[boofta]

Not that many years ago a lot of QF guys lived in the best parts
of Sydney, Eastern suburbs, lower Nth shore, had kids in the
best schools, ran businesses on the side.
They experienced the rewards of an above average income and
a tight contract on working conditions.
I wonder how many recent QF pilots will even achieve a decent
family home in Blacktown?
The same in CX, everyone had a large home 2100-3500 square
feet, cars, maids, boats, the best of holidays, in other words they
also experienced an above average lifestyle.
Nowdays CX pilots live in tiny highrise apartments, catch the bus
and cling to a very average income.
There has been a steady decline in pilot income around the world.

What can we do about it. Firstly stop kidding yourselves that any
airline management will improve things. Organised industrial
activity against airline managers everywhere is the only way to
maintain conditions, let alone improve them.

While we mouth off against THEM (the scum managers) they
laugh, until pilots unite, the downward spiral will continue.

Good luck to all

Personally, I am considering early retirement to become a truck
driver, more money less work!!!

[frangatang]

Dear Don
You arent the atc fella that was on a documentary about atc and pilots a few years ago are you. It had numerous nationalities and he was an aussie with the biggest chip on the shoulder about airline pilots. I seem to recognise his face from GA,another failed airline wannabee.
For your interest, BA B777 driver does around 850 hours a year
mostly 2 and 3 crew

[Mr. Hat]

Still waiting on some valid arguments here from the anti-moneyandlivingconditionsforpilotspeople.

In the meantime good luck to you guys up the top of the aviation ladder. I think you might have a fight on your hands.

You guys are setting the standards for years to come.