Pressured to sign the release?

[Ravintola]

How many of you have refused to release an airplane becuase you are not happy with its condition? How many have been pressured to do so and then hauled before management for refusing?

[rwm]

At my last job several times on both accounts. All I had to say was I have a licence and you don't. Do you want me to go and ask the regulators about this. Next thing I was given a stern warning that this was not acceptable behavior, and that was it. If this is what work is like at that company, then get out. It is not worth the head ache and frustration, or your integrity.

[fruitloop]

Agree with RWM.Don't sign if your not COMPLETELY happy with what could be a permanent loss of licence plus Jail-time if the **** hits the fan (negligence)Don't made threats to go to regulator,DO IT !!

[mono]

Rav,

My guess is that at some time every engineer has been pressurised into signing a release. whether it has gone over to a b:mad: king for refusing is another question. However it is their job to pressure us, they want the a/c serviceable, and it is our job to say NO if we feel it is not safe.

The only other thing I would add is that there were some things that I may not have signed in my early licenced days that now with the benefit of experience I would be happy to sign. Just as there are some things I may have signed in my early days that bring me out in a cold sweat!

Where some doubt exists consult with a colleague, another opinion always helps.

But at the end of the day, it's your licence so if you don't like it don't sign. As I once said to my boss 'If I sign that and it goes in, I'll loose my job and my licence. If I don't sign it all you can do is take my job, and I'll always get another one!'

[vortsa]

I agree with Mick, sorry fruitloop, don't do it.

[Nopax,thanx]

The responsibilities of the Certifying engineer are enshrined in law, whereas those of the engineering manager are normally only laid down by his senior managers - who are being leant on by the beancounters.

No manager would admit to the CAA/FAA/DGAC or whoever that he would pressurise a certifying engineer to let a suspect aircraft go, but in private it's a different situation.

You are entitled to be accompanied by a colleague if a manager wants to see you, so do it. If you can bring in the Quality manager, then that's even better. Like the others on this thread have stated, they can't take your ticket - but the authorities can!

When it's 3am on a rainswept ramp, it's your decision, and no-one else's. Do what is required for safe operation, and beat off the flak next day.

[asheng]

An easy answer if getting pressurised to sign anything you are not happy with by some overbearing manage muppet is to say
"Heres the book mate, you want it signed then you and you alone sign it"

One of two reactions will develop.

1) If he can sign it (Licensed and approved) then be it on his head and what you do then is up to you. (A quick call to QA maybe)
or

2) If he cant sign it (unlicensed or approved) then tell him to "****** off" as you will only sign it when you are satisfied that all is complete and SAFE.

If he is pressurising you to sign the box, then one could deduce that he obviously can't in which case #2 applies.
It is your licence and your livelyhood.He has no rights to ask you to place these on the line just so he can appease whoever is pressurising him. You never know he might learn a thing or two as well.

Try it, I have and it works

[Blacksheep]

Its worth remembering that the majority of engineering managers were once Licensed Aircraft Engineers and many still hold licences, although the ratings may have long expired. To suggest as 'Nopax,thanx' does that managers face no legal penalties in the event of an accident is to say the least, ignorant: Managers face even greater accountability in this respect than do the licence holders.

'mono' gets it right when he says it is managements' job to apply pressure - thats how they find out if there is a real problem or not. I've refused to release an aircraft on several occasions and, faced with a lounge full of irate passengers, its only natural for the boss to apply pressure to test the situation. He could do no less. When I refused to budge though, there were never any consequences - unless you count increased respect of course.

**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[Nopax,thanx]

Now then Blacksheep, I didn't say that.....of course I know that many Engineering Managers were once or are still licence holders. My point was that it's the Certifying engineer's decision if the aircraft gets signed off or not, and that it will always be his legal obligation. That's where the sharp end is, and I'm happy for you that you have an understanding management. Naturally a manager would be hauled over the coals if there were an accident or incident - but then again, the entire engineering department would be under scrutiny.

But no-one can deny that there will be a continuing effort by certain types within management to let the ship go rather than lose a revenue trip - the further away from the floor the worse it gets, simply because accountants and senior managers are not engineers and don't see it from the engineers' point of view.

I hope that clears up your understanding of my standpoint. I'm not licensed, but have been exclusively in aircraft engineering since 1975 - maybe not as long as yourself, but long enough for me!

I'm on your side really.....!

:ok:

[Perrin]

Lets all get a laugh at what happened to me. Turned up as Hanger Foreman and got told to sign for a wheel change that was finished on nights. Asked to look at A/C and was told it
had taken off on a service. When refusing to sign was told I hope I don't have to go to the Manager about this Quess who was telling me this the QA manager. Left airline soon after.

[Bus429]

I've been there - you've got to stand firm. If, as a result of continued pressure, from a variety of sources, you eventually give in, they'll wonder why you resisted in the first place.:O

[ilovegordon]

:cool: as experienced certifying personnel, we know what is go and what is no go. in real life, (forget what regulatory / qa insist) aircraft may not be 100% strict to mel, amm.... everyone of us have our own set of go/no go gage. some people put that at 95% and some people put thing at 85%. it is our own judgement how to navigate through this difference between real life and book rules. this may depend on how well we understand individual systems. if u don't feel comfortable in signing something, don't sign.

:E commercial pressure - our job is to make aircraft safe for travel. having 400 people eagering waiting at the gate because of a delay won't make u feel comfortable neither. if thing is acceptable, why don't let all people happy making their trip on time. of course the right level of safety should never be compromised.

:suspect: i'm not management and will never be.

[snickers]

MY COMPANYS FAVORITE IS TO PRESENT YOU WITH THE SMI SIGN OFF WITH ONLY A FEW HOURS BEFORE ETD. NO WAY YOU HAVE TIME TO CHECK THE PACK (WE ARE TALKING C CHECKS HERE), AND WHEN YOU REFUSE YOU GET THE "TROUBLEMAKER" LABEL, AND THEY JUST FIND SOMEBODY ELSE WHO ISN'T AS STRONG TO SIGN IT.
NOTE: AND QUALITY SAY IT ISN'T THEIR PROBLEM!
STAND BY YOUR DECISION THOUGH, WOULD RATHER BE A TROUBLEMAKER ( I HAVE BEEN CALLED WORSE) THAN AN IDIOT - I LEAVE THAT JOB TO THE MANAGEMENT

[rwm]

I've worked for some good companys, and I've worked for some bad companys. I worked for good guys in bad companys and I've worked for bad guys in good companys. Bottom line is it is my licence and integrity that I have to answer to. It could be my family in that a/c or under that a/c when it flies. Does that mean I won't let it go with some minor cosmetic problem? of course not. I won't let it go if there is a serious problem, but I've let it go with a leak that is way out of limits, but gave a heads up to the guy at the next base about it. Is that legal? Not really, but is it safe? Of course it is, or I wouldn't have let it go. I've been called a lot of things in my career, but I have the respect of my fellow coworkers, and my management that I am knowledgeable about what I do. If it is broke I won't let it go, and my manager won't push me to sign the release. He will ask about the snag, the steps I've taken, he will give me advice or other options, but until I'm happy that things are good, I don't sign. I have been talked into signing things, only because as a collective we have come up with a solution that will make the a/c servicable, may not mean that it is exactly as per mm, but safe and servicable just the same. Bottom line is that a/c pays my salary, and i can't get paid if it doesn't fly, nor do i get paid if it crashes. Besides you can't spend your salary in jail. Think smart, think safe.

[conrod]

The bottom line is is once YOU have signed/stamped
for the work carried out it is YOU that will carry the can for
when it goes wrong. The management will be nowhere to be
seen don't compromise your own standards by being pressurised
by these muppets. In my experience they are mostly spinless
individuals who's main concern is lining there own pockets at
the expense of everyone else. YOU are the certifier what you
say goes as regard to certification of the a/c please don't become the fallguy.:ugh:

[eng123]

rwm,

Agree 100% with what you say,a perfectly safe and competent attitude to have.
I must say that with nearly 18 yrs under my belt,I have never been pressured into signing for anything I'm not happy with.I have no problems with grounding an aircraft and have done so on many occasions but I would not ground it strictly on the basis that it's out of limits.It depends on by how much and what the problem is.
Rightly or wrongly this is the real world.

[fruitloop]

In case my last statement was taken out of text let me clarify the incidence "An MEL (3 day limit)had previously been applied and on the morning of the forth day was pressured into signing the release.My dummy spit was because we had the spares to rectify the prob but the A/C had overnighted in a minor base (bad planning ! )and when it arrived I was expected to just sign it off and allow the MEL to go on. Was I being pedantic or just covering myself.Eventual outcome was find another to sign !!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Strikes me Eng123 you are either incredibly lucky or are very good at blocking out the pressure. Whilst I hope that I've never actually done it where safety was an issue, being pressured to sign things off I'm not entirely happy with is almost a weekly problem for me.

Could be worse I suppose because I mostly deal with privately owned aeroplanes and private owners want their pride and joy in the air to an extent that wage-slave manager's don't necessarily.

G

[eng123]

Genghis,
I can honestly say that I haven't ever been pressured to sign.Maybe I am very lucky.I have certainly backed down and changed my mind having consulted with colleages but I've never had a manager tell me to sign off a defect that is clearly outside the MEL and dangerous. Maybe that is a significant difference between the standards of general aviation compared to commercial operations?

fruitloop,

In that situation I would certainly have refused to release the aircraft with an MEL over-run especially if the spares were available.They would have to have got me a concession in order for me to do that but once again,I have never been unfortunate enough to work for a company that has tried it on like that.

[rwm]

My current emplolyer and one of my other previous employers have very strict rules on MEL and minor defect logs. So no matter how minor the problem is, my hands are tied if an MEL goes beyond the date. But I think I can extend an MEL once, and a minor defect twice so long as there are parts demanded. If it goes beyond that, then the A/C is AOG where ever it is.

[fordran]

Great stuff guys,

A dozen or so engineers who won't accept the undue pressure applied by the manager to sign under pressure or out of category. The problem is the other 5000 engineers who will!
Every time I refuse to do so some other **** is ready to jump in my grave. I then find that he is chosen before me when the boss is looking for a good Neddy to put on the next course and the next thing I know, he is my boss.

I am bloody sick of being told by my union not to break the rules and then see my rep doing all he can to bend over at every request of management. I do not and never will cross the red line but if there is any of you out there who can speak exotic Asian and Arabic langauges please pass our sentiments on to my workmate because he can't speak English.


cheers

[trapper]

most of us get pressured from time to time....all I can say is that with age comes experience and with experience comes confidence. ie in the long term it aint a problem, they're only tryin their luck and know they aren't right so will always back off.

[asheng]

Fordran,

I think on reading your post that the only advice to give in this instance is for you to look elsewhere for another employer. They obviously are not willing to respect you decision and by the sounds of it your union is as much good as a chockie fireguard.

You alone have to stand by your standards and stand your ground.It sounds crap but that is what the job entails and why you have a licence.

You may think that there are only a dozen people to stand up but I can assure you there are many more who would not hesitate to say no if undue pressure were applied and rightfully so but thankfully in todays day and age these incidents just dont happen very often thank goodness.

rwm

If your aircraft arrives with an MEL overrun then the only course of action is to ground it untill some positive action is taken (ie,defect rectified) especially if the spares are available and the item can be rectified.The aircraft is out of commision,well thats the real world for you and there are no excuses for that I'm afraid whether it was at a minor base or not.
You can always ask for a concession but this will have to go to your relevant NAA and the first question they will ask is "why do the company fell the need for this as the aircraft can be repaired at your base as you have the spares ? As this is the case various other questions will be asked and in the long run it will be quicker and less embarassing for your company to rectify the defect and accept the delay as it is.

At the end of the day I can say I have never been asked to sign anything I am not happy with and hope the situation never arises.Amongst all the engineers I have had the pleasure to meet in this industry the vast majority are professionals with a great degree of common sense who on every basis have the intelligance to base there judgements accordingly as to the situation concerned.
I am sure some idiot will prove me wrong on some occasion but that is life and I wont change my thinking just to appease him,that will be his problem.

[rwm]

asheng,
I think I stated in my last post about how I and my company deals with MEL situations. They will never ask me to sign anything that is not above scrutiny. I like that. But we do have a policy in place, and it is aproved, and falls within the local law. Further more I can only get an extension if we are awaiting parts, ie have a part on order from the relavant manufacturer. I can't just postpone work because i don't feel like doing it. I do end up doing a fair amount of late shifts to fix things so the a/c is servicable for the next flight.

[asheng]

rwm,

Sounds like you and your company have got it sorted.Its an agreement that both you and them are happy with and obviously so are the authorities so therefore everyone wins.

It sounds like a very sensible and concerted approach to me and it is probably an example that some of the other less scupulous operators around the industry may look at following.:ok:

Good on ya

[cognac]

As stated in another forum!
Isn't this what a CAIR Report is surposed to combat.

[laurieg]

As an ex Crew Chief, (recently military VC 10), my answer to all the captains/managers who believe "the show must go on" is -
It is my behind on that seat and if I am not happy with the serviceability of my jet it goes nowhere.

I know you folks in the civie sector have passenger revenue to consider but the holy grail is safety and nothing should compromise it. There is the 'safe' way to get around things and there is the b:mad:y stupid and outright dangerous way. Unfortunately, many managers can be very blinkered in their reasoning. A managers job is not to pressurise but to monitor the work throughput and seek advice from the experts. ie us when things go wrong and come to a SAFE compromise.

[DoctorA300]

I have, some yars ago in the Western part of Ireland, come under direct pressure to sign off a JT8 that failed a boroscope inspection, luckely for me, other things happened that ment it never came to a direct confrontation with the manager in question. As someone wrote, "with age comes experience and with experience comes confidence", this is very true, I was 25, and I buckeled under the pressure.
I have 2 points to make regarding this.
1 - We as professionals have to realize that pressure to sign a release is never as suttle as "Sign it or else" it is often far more cinister. Often the pressure is put on you indirectly via your roster by means of under staffing/over planning combined with ever increasing amount of cooperate "Information" stating that "in this though economy, we HAVE to be more effective", combine this with a senario of a early morning departure, slot time lots of connecting passengers, then a snag, most people do rush the T/S somewhat in this situation and guess what, 99% of the time the problem goes away, you then pen it off convincing yourself "it was probably just X or Y" this puts pressure on the next guy to do the same thing if the problem reappears, and then you start getting unairworthy aircraft flying around the sky. This leads me on to my next point.
2 - Pressure is very often brought on by ourselves. We as Engineers carry out out proffession guided by our cultural background, this means that a British engineer works in a different way to a Danish, Swedish or any other nationality, we are all diferent. With the advent of this JAR66 licence in europe, one thing that has come about, is more nationalities working together. Contracting as an Engineer in the 1980´s you would find very few other nationailties other than British, maybe a few Kiwi´s and Cannuks, but theese where the exptions. Today there is quite a few other people out the, alot of swedes, some Danes, A good few Bog trotters, Aussies, Kiwis, greeks and a whole range of people from the former eastern block countries. A lot of tension and "My c@ck is bigger than yours" come of all this. The Brits have been given a raw deal in their licence convertions, this is a fact, alot of Brits feel their livelyhood threatened by B1 AND B2 qualified scandihooligans, and rightly so, why should an accountant pay for 2 if he can get away with 1, on the other hand a lot of scandihooligangs feel that Brits carry a bucket of useless facts and trivia around, and if we need to know it will be in the manual. The point I am trying to make, is, lets try to help and learn from eachother, their is only one person benifitting from us arguing, and that is the accountant.
Brgds
Doc