BBC News report BA engineers to ballot for strike action

[reracker]

The six o'clock news just added as a breaking news item that engineers at LHR & LGW are to be balloted for strike.

Engineers responsible for maintaining BA aircraft at Heathrow and Gatwick have warned the company they will ballot for industrial action if the controversial electronic clocking-on system is imposed.

Looks like they are all going to jump on the band wagon now, who next loaders, dispatchers ???????

[CandyBender]

Errrrr cabin crew actually. Members of the T&G (11-12000 of BA cabin crew) voted unanimously for a strike ballot at their last branch meeting at the beginning of the month if cabin service management impose reduced crewing levels i.e. 1 cabin crew member on every aircraft - 3 on an A320 & 11 on a 777 with no reduction in on board service. Post 9/11 the cabin crew unions did agree to reduce crewing levels temporarily e.g 12 down from 13 on a 777. The 13th crew member has returned on the most demanding routes eg MCO/BGI out of LGWbut all other routes (80% or so) have remained at 12 crew on the 777. It's tough enough trying to provide a full service to our customers at Easyjet crewing levels in the economy cabin, 4 crew for 194 pax, but 3 crew for 194 is a joke. I sincerely hope that these cuts are not imposed, because at the end of the day it will be the customers suffering despite the best efforts of the cabin crew. Virgin & SQ operate their 744s with 17+ crew......BA 15 at present.
More cuts = less service = ultimately less customers!!

[reracker]

The quote was taken from the BA news site and I heard Sophie on the six o'clock news.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3094129.stm

Read it for yourself. I don't know about the cabin crew, they wern't mentioned.........

[Hand Solo]

There may be 11000-12000 cabin crew members in BASSA, but how many were at the meeting to vote for a ballot? 200-300 at most? Not a great sign of unanimity.

[Shuttleworth]

Candybender
The do it because they can afford to!
Virgin's seventeen probably cost a whole lot less than ten BA cc.

[NigelOnDraft]

<<200-300 at most? Not a great sign of unanimity.>>
40 I understand.... (oh - and someone said "+ 300 eMails!!")

NoD

[mainfrog2]

I'm a member a T&G and cabin crew and nobody has balloted me on strike action?

[CandyBender]

Mainfrog......all the details are on the BASSA newspage...it's about the 8th article down.

[cirrus01]

The Engineers have already rejected the BA pay "offer " of 3% with a whole raft of conditions attached. Note that it wasn't just some Union militants which rejected it, there was a consultative ballot which BA engineers voted 96 % ( YES ....NINETY SIX PER CENT ) to reject.

One of the conditions was the complete acceptance of EWS with all the electronic clocking in and out.

There was a meeting with the mis-management today (24th July) about what ( if any ) steps that BA were to improve their offer.

Against all this it should be remembered that BA pay their their Engineers 12.5 % BELOW the average of the UK carriers.

And yes, many are taking their skills elsewhere......
It might take only six weeks to train a Check in agent, Six months for a Cabin Crew member, and two years for a Flight crew ( ab-initio to ATPL ...Co-Pilot).......but it take many years to produce a valuable qualified Licensed Engineer.

:hmm: :hmm:

[Hand Solo]

It might take only six weeks to train a Check in agent, Six months for a Cabin Crew member, and two years for a Flight crew ( ab-initio to ATPL ...Co-Pilot).......but it take many years to produce a valuable qualified Licensed Engineer.

You should study harder then, you might get it down to two years like the pilots!:p

Any truth in the rumour that the engineers are after 16%, or is that just airside gossip?

[Shed Driver]

<<You should study harder then, you might get it down to two years like the pilots!>>

Just typical from a cadet nigel... have some respect for your professional collegues...

[Hand Solo]

Perhaps you need to get a sense of humour Shed Driver - like my professional colleagues in the engineering department have.

[stormin norman]

You should study harder then, you might get it down to two years like the pilots!

hand solo
Remember if BA goes down the plug hole ,the licenced engineers are in more demand than pilots (Multi skilled).I don't see 3500 vacancies in Flight at the moment ? Suggest you remove yourself from filling in your bid form and find out whats going on in the real world around you.

[soddim]

What's going on in the real world is that your customers are well pissed off with the way they are being treated so you should all stop whinging and get your asses back in gear or you'll be out of jobs.

The low cost airlines are laughing all the way to the bank.

[Hand Solo]

norman see my previous post and substitute your username for 'Shed Driver'. If the company goes t1ts up we're all in the mire together - you, me and most of the engineers. If you think otherwise then I suggest you speak to some of my former colleagues at BHX who are now redundant or on very long term gardening leave, or perhaps the chaps at MAN currently suing the company for unfair (or was it constructive) dismissal. I'm sure HOVIS can give you the full details. I'm reliably informed that decent LAE positions in the UK aren't exactly growing on trees at the moment.

[Yeahbut]

Oh how sad.

BA staff are going to have to clock in and out. Welcome to the real world where the majority of other workers have to do the same.

The only reason "clocking" is not wanted is because it removes the ability to leave work before the end of their shift. (Trapping off I believe it's called)

If you are paid to work "x" hours per week/month you should be at work for those hours and nobody can argue against it.

Yes you may have the worst management in the whole universe and have to work awkward shifts for an average salary. You all signed a BA contract and as such accepted the BA laws. How many signed up just for the benefits i.e staff travel? Now things have got a little tough you complain.

If your salary is going to be dependant on the actual hours of "Productive" work then that is a major change of contract. Similarly if you are being lead down the path of annualised hours it is also a change of contract.

It is a tough time for all airlines. You've had it too good for too long. Things must change to keep up with the times or we will suddenly see another major player in the industry written off.

IF it's that bad, vote with your feet and go get a job somewhere else.

[cirrus01]

Yeahbut......

" You all signed a BA contract and as such accepted the BA laws."

Your quote above completly undermines your argument.
Yes we did all sign up with BA, but now the company wants not only to move the goalposts, but to remove them altogether !

One of the conditions that BA wanted was an agreement with the workforce to implement changes now, and at any time in the future as it sees fit. I. E. just like an open cheque .

I don't know who you work for.....your profile does not specify,( I also note that you have recently joined PPrune) but I would be very surprised that you would sign up for such a situation where your employer can rip up previous agreements and impose new conditions at will, without your consultation.

On the subject of Productive Hours......... Question : When does an Aircraft earn ANY money ????

Answer......Only when it is flying.

Therefore, Aircraft maintenance has always been tailored to minimise downtime.

Quote "BA staff are going to have to clock in and out. Welcome to the real world where the majority of other workers have to do the same.

The only reason "clocking" is not wanted is because it removes the ability to leave work before the end of their shift. (Trapping off I believe it's called)

If you are paid to work "x" hours per week/month you should be at work for those hours and nobody can argue against it"

The only time we can work (or be Productive ) is when we have aircraft to work on. Sometimes the situation arises that all the scheduled and non-scheduled maintenance on the fleet of aircraft has been completed before the end of the shift and all the aircraft have been made serviceable. I.E. available to the airline to go and make some money.
Perhaps you are suggesting that we should always ground an aircraft so that we can be "Productive " ??
Strange Logic !!!




:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Yeahbut]

Read your contract. You'll find something like "this contract may be amended in the future to reflect business needs"

On the productive front. You are clouding the issue. You are paid for 40 or whatever hours a week therefore you should be at work for 40 hours. You obviously are quite prepared to take a paycut for the hours you don't attend. If there is insufficient work to keep everybody at work for the whole shift, then you are either overmanned or you require a shift pattern that matches your workload.

For your info, I am a licenced engineer and have been since the early 70's and I work at Gatwick. I am aware of the problems of aircraft maintenance, believe me there's worse places to work than BA.

[reracker]

'TRAP's are an integral part of the system. If the aircraft are all flying/servicable then there is no point EVERYBODY being there. I have worked in a lot of areas and all seem to operate it. However I haven't seen people trapping off an hour before their shift ends when there is still work to be done. On the flip side, I haven't seen people saying I need to have my lunchbreak now so all work stops and I will leave those passengers stewing on a u/s aircraft while I have my pot noodle.

Its give and take, it's worked for years and it's worked for both sides. Introduce this system and you will loose a massive amount of good will. If I don't get held up in traffic, arrive at work 20 minutes early and there is a big job on, I get straight out there and help. People will now be watching the clock and starting work bang on time and leaving bang on time. What a crock of sh!t it will all turn into.

[HOVIS]

Hello Hovis here, and it's all gone a bit Pete Tong since my last post.

Any way,

To quote....

"If there is insufficient work to keep everybody at work for the whole shift, then you are either overmanned or you require a shift pattern that matches your workload."

You obviously have no idea how line maintenance works do you?

I know let's work WITH enthusiasm and make sure that there is plenty of work for everyone shall we!

The last time that happened there was a fleet of 747 gliders parked outside TBJ with concrete blocks where the engines should have been, Tech1 and 2 used up all the spare wheels overnight. Believe me if I want to keep everyone fully employed for the entire shift I just ground the aircraft. Easy.

Now that is no way to run an airline is it?

Give and take by all sides with everyone being treated as adults is THE ONLY way forward.

Also for any press bods reading this.

WE ARE NOT JUMPING ON A MILITANT UNION BANDWAGON. THIS DISPUTE WITHIN ENGINEERING HAS BEEN DRAGGING ON FOR MONTHS AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CHECK IN STAFF.





:mad: :ok:

[Yeahbut]

"You obviously have no idea how line maintenance works do you?"

Is that right?:mad:

I was probably maintaining aircraft on the line before some of you were out of nappys.

I've made my point. I'm allowed an opinion, like it or not. I'll let the petty bickering carry on but I'm not posting anymore on the subject.

Good luck with the dispute, but dont come crying when it all goes horribly wrong.

[Perrin]

Working on the clock on the line will never work, yes I have had many early traps but many times no food breaks etc till the job is done, you do not go and leave passenders sitting while you take a break. The suits do not understand that and never will. If thay push for the card system then work to rule is the answer they will soon learn. 42 years mostly on the line have taught me that give and go each way is the only answer.

[cirrus01]

Yeahbut........

Don't think I would come crying to you


Perhaps with your vast knowledge and experience gained over many, many years you would like to tell all of us what to do when all the aircraft are made serviceable ? Don't say "Read the manuals" ..........!!!! would have done this BEFORE any maintenance !!!


Your soultion of reduced numbers or a different shift system doesn't add up.

1....Reduce the numbers on shift.....OK then, What happens (which is more often than not ) when there is a large amount of work such as inbound defects , drop dead ADDs, in addition to the scheduled checks ??? ......... Result lots of U/S aircraft at the end of the Shift.

2 .....Different shift system..... OK then in Line Maintenance/ Casualty / Minor Checks the 4 ON 4 OFF uses the least amount of people to man. Any other combination to cover 24 Hours 7 Days a week will need more personnel .

My point is that a maintenance operation is not like a production line in a Factory where a set amount of work can be easily divided up between Manhours . Aircraft maintenance by it nature has a "Peak and Trough" pattern which is largely catered for by the flexibility and goodwill of the workforce.....something which is not being recognised by our current mis-management.
I would have thought that your obvious vast experience would have taught you that by now.???

You haven't revealed who you work for ( I wonder why ) and what happens in your workplace when "all the work has been completed " Has that never happened ???
:suspect: :suspect: :suspect:

[Minesagrolsch]

I hope to god that the BA cabin crew don't go on strike.Not that we would notice much difference judging by the sickness rate at the moment.Cabin Crew have had a very severe letter from their boss asking them politely to get off their arses and actually turn up for work if possible,social/sporting commitments permitting,of course !
Some actually popped back to work when Wimbledon finished,but there are now other reasons for not coming in.
BA are so short of CC this weekend that they have had to charter an EAC 747 to operate LGW/MCO.Premium cabins are constantly being closed off and First Class punters are being downgraded due to shortages.It really is a farce !
No coincidence that Gay Pride is taking place in London today ??
That'll be another few thousand phoning in with a sore :mad:

[frangatang]

6 months to train cabin crew? You must be joking,3 weeks and
away you go maye,just show them the bunks or preferably an
empty first class section!

[stormin norman]

The Cabin crew issue has been around for years but weak
management has never had the guts to do anything about it.

The Engineers within BA are some of the best in the world but
but is now led by a man hell bent on distroying any goodwill
that was there.

I just hope Rod Eddington sees sense and replaces them with
people (and there are lots in management)who understand the workforce and let them get on with the job as they always have.

[TURIN]

YEAHBUT,

Those posters who were "in nappies" seem to have very old heads on them. They also appear to have a very mature understanding of the airline maintenance business.

I have heard all the old "I was in Baghdad when you were in Dad's bag" tirades before, usually from reactionaries who expected young uns to know their place and not speak unless spoken to.

Experience counts for a lot but so does tolerance, understanding and the ability to listen with an open mind. :ok:

[Dipole]

Before this goes even further down the slanging match route, can somebody please give us the facts?

What exactly do BA want to introduce in terms of this "clocking" system?

What are the objections and why?

I'm not interested in rumours or scaremongering, just plain facts and don't want to hear statements to the effect "dont trust BA, this is the thin end of the wedge" etc.

Yeahbut.

You have raised some valid points, some of which I agree with, some I dont. Traps are fine provided ALL the work is finished. It is wrong to trap off if your workmates are still hard at it. As long as you all pitch in to get the job done or progressed to a point that help is no longer needed, trap by all means.

And yes I've had experience of this. More than once I've gone back to the crewroom towards the end of shift to ask for help to find not only the "workers" but also the managers.

(BTW I personally know Yeahbut, he is well liked, respected and one of the hardest working engineers you'll ever meet!)

[146fixer]

I work line maintenance and have to clock on and off.It is no real big deal.We still get early traps etc,it just depends on how you work it.Say that it does depend on the clocking system and what else it is being used for.
As of aviation,it is not the be all and end all.I have all the lecences,type ratings and spent the last 17 years doing it.It has got to the point were I have started to look outside the industry.It is not as bad as you think.There are jobs that compair in pay and shift patterns that you can move across to.I know a lot of people have worked hard to get were they are including myself but if you do loose your job then it may be worth thinking about something new.

[gas path]

BA engineers have 'clocked' in (electronically) for years, it's not a problem....END of story!!
BA have spent upwards of £100 million pounds on a new engineering computor system (when the company can ill afford it) to replace a legacy of old systems that do not talk to each other. (about time they were replaced but unfortunately with the co. in it's present state was it a good idea?)
Built into this system is 'clocking out' so what? self booking of leave and leiu days, and also I believe annualised hours. Hhmmm!! bit more tricky this one!
In the middle of this muddle come the wage negotiations, the union hierarchy were going along the lines of accepting the 3% and it was the membership themselves who said on yer bike, not with all the 'bells and whistles' attached to the new (computor) EWS (system)..... Unless it was by negotiation.
A wage claim was submitted of 10% months ago (that would get engineering back to a circa 1992 standard)
IMHO there was not a hope in hell of achieving it, BUT, it was a starting point.
To further muddy the waters is the thorny question of JAR 66 and the 'A' licence. It would appear that whatever is set for BA will be the industry standard in the UK. (so it has to be got right!........ right!)
The road to gaining an 'A' licence started with the technicians being given a short course (on type) to do ramp chks 1 and 2 (now dailys and weeklies), and 'simple and limited'. tasks (wheels brakes and that sort of thing). And to fully certify them.
When they'd got the first approval they got paid, then the company said they had to have two types, er!.....Concorde excepted, no extra payment was forthcoming, but, more and more tasks were being added to the original (17??).
Then came a shall we say reluctance to take on any more responsibility, without some renumeration.
Thence came a manager who bringeth two letters to the round table, said letters were wafted about in front of the reps of the union, and they were told that one of these letters would be forwarded to the CAA. One letter stated that the technicians were in compliance and would be entitled to an 'A' licence, the other letter stated that they were not in compliance and obviosly would have to sit (at there own cost) all the requred modules. (Now there is a word for this but I just can't quite place a finger on it. :rolleyes: )The reps. of the union signed the said parchment but when the disciples heard of this oh woe! oh woe! they were a tad displeased and the reps. of the union had to go back, recind the document and minute that it had been signed under duress.
So it came to pass that it's a right royal mess. Methinks all sides should take a break and sort out one thing at a time.

[vortsa]

Cirrus01 thats very interesting , because over here in Australia we thought that we were the only one's being offer a lousy 3 % and we're the "Lucky Country". I note also that BA have had a 1 Billion dollar lose this year, but would you believe that the big 'Q' is looking to post a $6oo million profit. Given all the turmoil in aviation over the last few years , where is the relativity I ask you. Engineers in Australia have been rejecting this meagre offer since January this year and when all the other Unions have rolled over to the Companies threats its nice to see solidarity amonst like minds. Anyway see you at the World Cup, Maybe.........?

[moo]

meal breaks are not an issue. the management will more than likely stagger the shift breaks so that there is cover over break periods. 146 fixer seems to think that clocking in and out is no big issue for line maintenance and I can say that at BAMC we've been doing it for 10 years and its no big deal for major maintenance either.
quit your bleating, welcome to 2003. its what everyone else does and if you really feel like leaving, the next company you join will almost certainly be doing it anyway.

[Bodjit]

A mate of mine works for BA in MAN, he reckons that its the old story that goes like this:

Work from 8 till 5 (notional) its busy between 8 & 10, quiet 10 - 2, busy 2 - 5.

Management say that you can "swipe out and go home" at 10 and "swipe in and come back to work" at 2. Thus they don't have to pay you for the quiet times. (Would you go home?)

Of course you now "owe" the company 4 hours so they can claim them back off you between 5 and 9 tonight if theres lots of work on. That of course is unacceptable but Macdonalds have been doing it for years. How many people would fancy working a split shift every day....NOT ME FOR SURE....

Swiping in and out would make this easy to admin.

Everyone knows us engineers are like firemen, a waste of money until the ac needs some work or theres a fire but if you want a job doing quickly when the clock is on you and pax/ freight are waiting its Goodwill, Goodwill, and Goodwill with a lot of teamwork that achieves it.

Its a shame managers and beancounters can't understand this

By the way this took ages to type

[hyperactive]

you are probably qiute correct decent lae positions dont grow on trees .but take a look at ba engineering and look at the turn over rate of engs over the last years not a good picture and these are experienced and highly experienced guys .so something is wrong somewhere dont you think ?

[HOVIS]

Well the result is on ceefax.

BA Engineering's Amicus members have voted by 70% to reject the companies 3% plus strings pay offer.

So what happens now?:(

[MaxDiff]

1: Hopefully management & staff will realise this is no time to be playing Russian roulette.

2. Both sides will return to negotiating table.

3. Management will have used the time to look up the definition of Negotiation.

:\

[HOVIS]

All over! Deal accepted and the whole lot will be implemented very soon.

Both halves of my Amicus card are in the post Mr Simpson.:mad:

[cirrus01]

Likewise with my Amicus card.....

[gas path]

....................... And mine!:mad: :mad:

[zalt]

I see "Members of Amicus backed the deal by 1,514 to 1,192"
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_829401.html?menu=

[reracker]

:} So are you going to strike or not ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????

:8 :confused: :ugh: