Trouble free flying-what aeroplane

[bluskis]

Most light aeroplanes have had a magazine write up when they are relatively new on the market, or have just been restored if a vintage example,and invariably get good marks from the journalist involved.

Are there trouble free types that in service regularly go from CofA to CofA without requiring significant cost input?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Blueskis:

All aeroplanes are holes in the sky, surrounded by alluminium (or whatever), into which you throw large quantities of money ;~))

SSD

[Monocock]

Very good question.

I can only give one piece of advice and that is ............the newer the aircraft the less chance there is of finding any costly nasties.

This is not a foolproof theory however, just a general trend.

You can find older a/c that are trouble free but it is a bit of a lottery. I have been lucky enough to own 3 very hassle free older aircraft to date. Most of the potential costs can be spotted by a good engineer (mine is fantastic) and NEVER buy an a/c without an engineer looking at it. It will be the best £50 and pub lunch you will ever invest.

[IO540]

bluskis

There is no way to get a plane which is guaranteed to be hassle free. The makers just don't have the incentive to make them reliable, like car makers have largely managed to do due to public pressure over the years. This applies especially to avionics; one of the biggest black holes for money and the reason why so many instruments are left not working in the planes you can hire.

The closest you can get is a new one with a warranty, then you have known operating costs and anything that goes will get fixed free of charge - if not free of hassle (I speak from exp. on this).

Can you afford a new plane, say £150k upwards?

Below that, you can get into this game at different levels; at each level you pay some money and you get some sort of plane. But any plane over say 15-20 years can potentially hit you with a £10k annual especially if it has been operated by certain types of people. You've got to have the money IF you need it.

[Keef]

Ain't no such thing as a hassle-free aeroplane. I'll avoid getting all philosophical, but you have to reckon with the risk of unexpected nasty bills at any time.

You may be lucky. We have, mostly, apart from eight new fuel pumps (finally insisted on one from a different supplier, since when there's been no more trouble), a new prop, two new cylinders, two lots of avionics upgrades, countless new tyres and brake disks (but the member who landed with his feet on the brakes has now left the group), and so on.

A £45k aeroplane, eight years ago. Cost between £5k and £15k a year since then to keep it airworthy and legal (the biggest chunk to do with the Government and FM immunity, rather than the aeroplane). Another one to come, probably, with Mode S, rapidly followed by yet another with ADS-B.

[A and C]

Hassel free aircraft ?????? good god no !!!!!!!!!! how am I to make a living if this happens ????????.

[bluskis]

Here are some previous comments on maintenance costs which may be of interese

[AerBabe]

Where? :confused:

Monocock the newer the aircraft the less chance there is of finding any costly nasties However, the older the aircraft, the longer they've had to find them. ;)

[QDMQDMQDM]

For cheaper flying from a maintenance point of view, look at a permit aircraft. Otherwise, don't buy anything with a vintage engine, unless you're an engineering type yourself, e.g. a Gipsy! The simpler the better and the better nick the better. It pays to pay upfront for quality.

David

[Kingy]

Buy a PFA permit aircraft - anything with an A65 in it. My choice would be a restored L4/J3 Cub - you could probably keep it going for five hundred quid a year for ten years and a have a huge amount of fun - I do!

Kingy

[BEagle]

keef - FMI upgrades, amen to that! (oops...! ;) )

I had 4 to upgrade, that cost an average of £4444 per ac. But why oh why are avionics (particularly KX155 displays) so very unreliable? One thing though, if you send a Garmin in for repair it comes back looking like new with all software upgrades (not the navigation database though) incorporated.

I bought a used Warrior as we needed another for the fleet. I wanted one which was sound but needed a repaint so that I could bid them down and then get it repainted in our colours. Found it, bought it (it had a zero time engine :ok: ), but insisted that they threw in the annual first. That put the pressure on their engineer as if he concealed anything he'd lose his ticket. So the heavy landing damage they hadn't told me about was repaired for free... I flew it back and thought it was a bit short of puff as it needed a surprisingly high RPM setting to cruise at normal speeds; when I flared it ballooned and floated so we suspected the ASI...sure enough there was an incorrect repair to the static system which someone had done earlier in its life. When we did the first avionic upgrade, our excellent avionic people at Staverton found that the avionic fitting was a real botch job - worse than something an amateur teenage car radio fitter might have done! About £23K, a respray, interior re-upholstering and a second avionic upgrade later, we now have it in a condition which meets our standards!

[Circuit Basher]

Beagle - your story brought to mind the disappointed look on the face of an owner locally who just bought an 'Arrer' through a well known US Web site which deals in trading of aeroplanes ;), on the basis that he was getting a bargain. The aircraft has just arrived at its new home field after a ferry flight plus a visit to the engineers to get the ferry tanks removed, the altimeters changed for ones which show hPa / mB and a UK C of A.

After all the hype that had been given to it ('this is an aircraft to do complex differences training on, rather than the C182'), I must confess to having been rather taken aback to see this 'Arrer' in the flesh. Worse still, the guy who bought it must have had a bit of a surprise......

This must have been one of the first off the line - it's very akin to one of the original PA28-140s. It's obviously never seen the inside of a hangar in its life, has been parked in 24hr sun and the paintwork is beyond 'flat' - it's totally bleached and looks like it's been sandblasted to boot. The underlying skin surface looks like it has had various suspect glass fibre repairs done to fill in 'nicks and dings'. Looking in the cockpit, the avionics looks to have been nicked from the Science Museum - I used to have a share in a PA28-140 which was hardly state of the art, but was totally futuristic compared to this one. The one thing that can't be knocked is the engine and VP prop (around 100 hrs each since new).

The poor guy seems devastated - he'd had an 'agent' look it over for him, but now realises that he should have spent the £6-700 to get his bum across there and see it for himself. If I were spending just a little bit shy of £40k, it seems like a reasonable investment to make.

A certain Harry Men--------, who's based at the same airfield, was asked to take a look inside to assess what would be required. I've never seen Harry looking that happy!! :D

Depending on what the guy decides to do, I reckon he's looking at around £12 - 15k to bring the aircraft up to a tidy state (without going overboard).

[Croqueteer]

Jodel 117. Hard to beat on initial cost, speed, range, economy, disposable load and handling. Cockpit a little cosy.

[IO540]

Beagle,

But why oh why are avionics (particularly KX155 displays) so very unreliable

I work in the business and the answer is simply that anyone with a plane was always assumed to have a deep pocket and doesn't care. For most part this is true in its end result; you have to pay up, or the plane can't fly.

Car makers always knew most breakdowns were electrical but it was only when the Japs came in that they got their fingers out. Unfortunately this never happened in GA.

The build quality of avionics (mechanics, hardware design and software quality) is pretty awful. It is mostly 1970s technology, with some new bits (e.g. colour LCDs) added. What particularly amazes me is that most of the kit is ventilated (because it's not designed for low power dissipation) and then gets damaged by moisture if the plane is left outside through the winter...