The End of the AEO

[Phoney Tony]

As of 1 Apr 03 it would appear that I am now a WSO.

Last year I was referred to as a rear crew officer (Not even aircrew any more....even though I can and have commanded, supervised all branches of aircrew and am in the direct line management of aircrew).

Checking with the desk officers at PMA they have confirmed that rear crew officers now comprise ALM and Air Eng officers (Having flown on most RAF types which have Air Engs I am certain most of them sat at the front of the aircraft).

So what you may ask, if there is now truly only one WSO branch why do I received less flying pay than other WSOs and also why are my PAS colleagues being discriminated against having a lower capped level of increments.

[Charlie Luncher]

Deal with it sweetheart

All the Airforce is doing is treating you like it has your knockers:* .

So may I pass on the advice given to me by my AEO "it is just the way it is if you dont like it well you know what to do".

Reap what you sow.

Charlie sends

[Hertzsprung Russell]

I'm sure all AEOps are right behind you on this one and will do their utmost to help support your case ;)

[jerryatric]

The End of the AEO - Hurrah!:O

[Mightycrewseven]

Phoney

Does that mean you have to change your brevet?

In fact shouldn't ALL AEO's change their brevet to
reflect the changing times and to present a more
up-to-date image to the new WSOps coming through (who
will be wearing the new brevet)?

:hmm:

[teeteringhead]

No one will be obliged to change his/her brevets. The one you were awarded can be worn as long as you like, but since 1 Apr all newly qualified erstwhile non-pilot aircrew (will that do Tone?) have been awarded the new brevet.

Doesn't anyone read RAF News? ....


.......silly me, of course they don't!

[Mightycrewseven]

TH

I beg to differ. I Qualified for my brevet many years ago but, as I have sold my soul, I have been 'ordered' to change my brevet to the 'new style.' This will be the case for all Non-Commissioned Aircrew that get Commissioned into the WSO branch.

This has happened to a number of us already and we're not too happy about the desision. Tried to seek sense but to no avail, we have a period of time to 'comply.'

I have a mixed view about changing over. On one hand it would fall into line with the introduction of WSOps arriving on the squadrons. On the other hand, I feel agrieved that I'm having to change it against my will. It's like graduating from University with a BSc and then several years later being told you have to return your diploma for a BA instead (or vice-versa!)

:sad:

[Phoney Tony]

Just the sort of answers I was expecting:

Charlie Luncher
NCA wish to be treated the same as Officer's so watch your six. Some NCA may and will be more equal than others. Drymen are better than wetmen who are all worse than Air Signallers. Therefore, they should receive pay according to worth.

Hertzsprung Russell
I did and still do stand up for NCA terms of service. I am glad to hear you will be supporting us. NB comment above.

teeteringhead
If you believe what is written in the RAF News you need therapy.
The remove/ change of a brevet is done above Airforce Board Level. Whilst lower echelons may wish to remove/ change your brevet it is only HM the Queen who may do so.

Mightycrewseven
Having been on all current Nimrod Sqns bar CXX you should know 3, 6 and 9 are always mightier than 7.
Check QRs I believe my comment above is true.

Keep smiling
Remember Kinloss is natures way of stopping singlies from breeding.

[jerryatric]

Mightycrew7,
Would you be the one who had a swimming incident, some years ago, in a well known hotel in Germany that the Mighty Hunter frequents?:O

[Mightycrewseven]

Jerry

;)

Were you one of the two in said swimming pool that just
p***ed yourselves laughing?:suspect:

The 'nose' did NOT get in the way!!!!

[Charlie Luncher]

PT

One thing I did before I left was to sit down with the review team and iron out that NCA are not officers or airmen but they are NCA and should have a term of service written for them not the hash that was used to discriminate them.:mad:

Aeo's rode the coat tails of the O aircrew review, so dont get me started on your paid what your worth as chocolate fireguards aint worth that much out here anyhow:} .

As for those who wish to be treated as Blue Bloods well go to Cranditz and dance with the devil as the young lad M7 has done.

Dude hope the pork pie is settling in well and your arse is getting nice and shiny with the desk warriors in brisssle. :ok:

[Mad_Mark]

Mighty/7,

I Qualified for my brevet many years ago but, as I have sold my soul, I have been 'ordered' to change my brevet to the 'new style.' This will be the case for all Non-Commissioned Aircrew that get Commissioned into the WSO branch.

If you have completed, or will be completing, your AEO/WSO training as of 1 Apr 03 you will not be qualifying as an AEO but as a WSO, hence the new brevet. The same would happen if you went for pilot or nav :yuk: , you are in a new aircrew branch and therfore wear the brevet for that branch.

MadMark!!! :mad:

[Mightycrewseven]

Mad_Mark

If you have completed, or will be completing, your AEO/WSO training as of 1 Apr 03 you will not be qualifying as an AEO but as a WSO, hence the new brevet.

Your logic rings true, however, those of us in this situation pose the following arguement:

We have completed IOT and not conducted a professional training course i.e. WSO after which we would THEN graduate with a WSO brevet. Our professional training was completed years ago resulting in the award of an AE brevet.

As I said before, I'm not overly fussed as to which brevet I wear as I will still be sat on my ar*e here in Bristol doing the same job regardless. I'm just being bl**dy minded because I've been told I HAVE to change my brevet, which, if you know me, I don't like because I feel I have good reason to keep the brevet that I qualified with.

I agree that those AEOps/ALMs/Air Sigs that go on to get a Commission in a different flying branch i.e. pilot or WSO (Nav) and subsequently complete the relevant training course would THEN graduate with a different brevet.

Over to you! :)

[M134]

Phoney Tony



So what you may ask, if there is now truly only one WSO branch why do I received less flying pay than other WSOs and also why are my PAS colleagues being discriminated against having a lower capped level of increments

A colleague in the RAF SAR Force has for years suffered an insulting pay scale. It would appear that at least one SAR location has the role of Radar Operator filled by; a Nav, an Aeop and an ALM. Aircrew are aircrew end of story. If you want to run with the “my badges are worth more than your badges” argument then you are a fool who’s now getting his just reward. Not only that but you help in keeping others less fortunate from getting even close to parity.

Pay 2000 Low Band Chimp.

[Mad_Mark]

Mighty/7,

We have completed IOT and not conducted a professional training course

In that case, as far as I am aware, you are fully entitled to continue to wear your AE brevet until completion of professional training (minus any OCU). I even understand that if someone went for a commision in a ground branch they are entitled to continue to wear their brevet - I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.



...as I will still be sat on my ar*e here in Bristol doing the same job regardless

Now you have got me wondering, not who I thought you were :confused:

MadMark!!! :mad:

[Phoney Tony]

CL

Ref

(Aeo's rode the coat tails of the O aircrew review, so dont get me started on your paid what your worth as chocolate fireguards aint worth that much out here anyhow)

I know as a branch we have some dead wood but so does the AEOp world. If you wish me to quote names I can.

The AEO branch is very small and as such was not given the full amount of scrutiny it probable deserved.

The MR2 force has many very good AEOs serving as captains and, I am sure you are aware, others, supporting weaker/ newer captains from other branches.

Looking outside of the MR2 force we have AEOs in the mission commander role on the other Nimrods and in the tactical director role on the E3D. Having seen both in action I can confirm these guys do a great job in direct competition with Navs (Mainly FJ background) and Fighter Controllers (No Comment).

Lump these all together with the other AEOs fulfilling the SENTINEL role….yes there are some already involved, along with those on the GSU (If its still called that), 42 Sqn, 55 Sqn and numerous staff tours at Gp, STC, MoD and PJHQ, and I think the number of bad AEOs would actually be a small number in proportion to the total. Most of the bad AEOs I know are still at Kinloss where they are ‘assisted’ by good AEOps.

Please do not tar us all with the same brush.

[Skylark4]

Once awarded a Brevet, it's yours for ever as far as I know. I can remember stories of L.A.C.s with Pilots wings and big medals. Demobbed after the War as Sgt. and re-enlisted when it didn't work out.

Mike W

[Phoney Tony]

A few courses behind mine at EGXI we had a Flt Eng who was subsequently chopped after gaining his C cat. He returned to his ground trade as a S Eq Ftr as a Cpl. He continued to wear his E brevet.

We also has 2 AEOps (This will date me) who were court martialed and busted to the ranks. For a while one of them worked in SHQ as a SAC wearing his AE brevet.

[Stuntmole]

Phoney,

Sorry old chap but you've hit a wrong nerve at the end of a crap week! Why the "(No Comment)" comment in reference to FCs? Got a snag with our performance on the jet? Bring it on, son - I'm in the mood for a good scrap!

Second thoughts, pehaps it was meant as just a bit of fun banter, I'll leave it with you to think about. Your move.

[Magic Mushroom]

Calm down Trickrat!!!

However, Phoney is somewhat misinformed regarding his info on E-3D TDs. Right now, the E-3D fleet has 9 FC (including the STANEVAL TD), 3 AEO and 2 Nav TDs. None of the nav TDs are ex FJ; one is an ex 849 Obs who saw the light and swapped to Lt Blue, the other is an elderly gentleman from Shacks who smells of wee and dribbles a lot.

We do have a few ex FJ navs (including OC 8 Sqn), but they are mostly still surveillance types on the jet apart from one who's a WC. Most AEO's have also remained within surveillance, although there is one AEO WC (again he's a fossil).

Of the E-3D community execs other than OC8, OC 23 is an ex F3 pilot, the 23 Sqn flt cdrs are 2 x FC (including the Boss of the OCU), and 1 x ex C-130 nav, the 8 Sqn flt cdrs are 2 x FC, 1 x AEO, and 1 x pilot, and OC STANEVAL is an Eng.

I have no problem with AEOs, they're excellent for making fun of on a crew, but get your facts straight Tony old chap!
Regards,
M2:D :D :D

[Charlie Luncher]

PT

oops:sad:

Its OK you must be one of the good ones we sent to Waddo:\

I am very familiar with the good AEOs mostly those commissioned after the board considered their ACRs and 5000 although there a few good exceptions before hand - Ok a couple.

Dont all AEOs smell of wee and dribble a lot:E
Agree with you on FCs pants.

Charlie sends

[Phoney Tony]

CL,

Looking at the 5000 is a good idea. I know 4 or 5 AEOps who were posted from the front line. They went away to crap jobs;

Nif Naf instructor at Finn.
Sim instructor at Brize.
8 Sqn shacks.......as an ac chock I think.

etc

The next time we see them back at Kinloss is as a Fg Off.

MM

Sorry I flew with you a number of years ago and the TD was definately a loud, bouncy AEO. I am sure you will know him.

I have no problems with FC. The E3D provides a consistenl better service than other E3s.

Watch your 6. the F3 navs are after your jobs.

Your efforts to gain aircrew status may be better placed on hold for a few years. F3 navs are expensive compared to a FC.

[Magic Mushroom]

Phoney,
Guess that must've been JC then who's recently departed to a staff job! Top bloke.

To be honest thought, the branches and specialisations of the TD's and other crew positions ebbs and flows given that the E-3D has such a cosmoplitan mix down the back. The fact that we have such a variety of brevets is one of our strongest points I believe, when compared to other AWACS fleets who are very AD centric in their manning.

Additionally, we're unique amongst AWACS operators in that we employ an upgrade system. Therefore, it doesn't matter from what background a guy is from or what rank he is, he must start as an SO or WC before earning an upgrades to SC/LM or FA and then ultimately TD. This is in contrast to every other E-3 fleet who can and do have guys posted directly into a TD post without previous flying experience, purely because they happen to be a Maj.

Hear what you say about the move to formalising FC aircrew status. However, the current situation is a farce and needs to be sorted. I've no doubt it will. However, the main condom on the penis of progress right now is the FC branch hierarchy who see the WSO (Air Battle Manager) proposals as them losing control of a large proportion of their branch!

Regards,
M2

[Biggus]

Well this is fun isn't it? Almost as good as the normal personal attacks we get on Hercules threads between the J and K fleets!!

The AEO/AEOp world is not one I am highly familiar with, but I find it interesting that so many AEOps seem to regard AEOs in a bad light, when you consider that most AEOs were AEOps themselves at one point!!! Are AEOs considered to have "sold out" by AEOps??

As for Phoney Tonys comment... "The MR2 force has many very good AEOs serving as captains and, I am sure you are aware, others, supporting weaker/ newer captains from other branches." I am surprised this didn't get a bite from other trades (pilot or nav) on the Kipper fleet. To me it seems to imply, arrogantly, that the Kipper fleet either has AEO captains or AEOs supporting captains who are less able people than the AEOs in question. Maybe I got the tone wrong. I didn't realise that AEOs came second in the pecking order of the RAF for "walking on water" - after Harrier pilots. I had some naive concept that there were good, average and poor people in every trade group, pilot, nav, AEO, AEOp, FC, .... etc. Still, Pprune is here to inform, next time we have a crisis I now know it is AEOs we need to send out for!!!

[Phoney Tony]

B,

As a rule AEOs have come from the AEOp cadre. There are a few direct entry AEOs around (ex V force) and a couple who were 'experiments' commissioned straight out of basic AEOp training. Some of these chaps struggled when they came straight to the MR2 but those who went to other ac first, to gain some experience, did a lot better. Most have reached at least S/L rank.

To get commissioned one merely had to do well on the day at OASC and no attention was paid to your previous ACR or 5000. Hence we have a few leakers, especially when individuals escaped the front line and were able to sneak to OASC from a more permissive environment (if they had tried from the frontline they would not have had Flt Cdr/ Sqn Boss approval).

Typically these chaps made it back to the front line as training risks but were supported by AEOps who naturally feel that it not their job. However, we are now into playing the numbers game and as long as the system can balance out an operational crew most bosses are happy. Thus these chaps are stuck in the system.

My comment about AEOs supporting weaker captains is true, but please note the adjective 'Very good'. AEOp's and AEO's on the MR2 have only one place to serve and hence once you have done your tour as an AEO captain you have to move on, however, the chances are you come back to the MR2. AEO's in this position are often placed on crews where they can support new chaps. I do not have an issue with this at all. Indeed making best use of your men is why the MR2 is still a very potent system.

Your last comment is already fact...........when ever there is a crisis you will find that AEO's are always on the ISTAR platforms which shape the battlespace E3D/ Nimrods/ ASTOR. Along with our fellow ISTAR aircrew of course. Ably supported by AAR and AT dudes.

Invariable we arrive first, push with the strike packages and remain long after the rest of the warfighters go home.

I am sorry if I sounded arrogant that was not my intention.