File a Plan for Crossing Welsh Mountains?

[In Altissimus]

I'm finally planning to fly up to Anglesey next weekend (one of the reasons I learnt to fly) and I was wondering...

What's the consensus regarding filing a (VFR) flight plan in view of the intended mountain crossing? Is it worth the hassle? My intended routing is roughly WCO WPL EGOQ.

Any advice regarding the Valley AIAA at the weekend would be appreciated too :rolleyes:

[fireflybob]

I would highly recommend that you do so - nothing to lose and everything to gain if you have the misfortune to have to force land on inhospitable terrain or sparsely populated areas.

Not sure what type you are flying but only take the direct route over the high ground if the weather is perfect for VFR and read up on the effect of wind over mountains etc - I think there may be an AIC which covers this.

Remember also to ensure the flight plan is closed if you have to divert to an airfield which is not on the AFTN otherwise they will have search and rescue out looking for you unecessarily!

[bookworm]

The most important thing is that you tell someone at Mona (does it have AFIS?) when you should be expected, and get them to call AIS if you don't show up. Without that, filing an FPL does you no good at all, unless Mona has an AFTN connection and gets a copy of the FPL.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Being one of those Shropshire types, I can confirm that you must be careful with the weather. Take today: no cloud, 30 degs, awsome vis but a 10kt wind. The turbulance over the top will still be rather rough. I've tried to do Sleap - Anglesey a couple of times but each time I have had to go the long way around because of the turbulence. Its probably not going to break your ac but the local soothsayers reckon you can only go over the top of Snowdon a handful of times each year without re-distributing your passengers lunch.

Valley AIAA - No problems at weekends.

[READY MESSAGE]

If you can get across the top I can promise some of the most fantastic flying you can see. It will be a most rewarding trip. I fly alot in that area and there are a couple of points to consider.
You are kind of in 'No Mans land' in terms of radio. Try London FIS but over the mountains you may well lose them if you are not high enough. Filing a flight plan may be worthwhile if even just for peace of mind, as previously mentioned don't forget to close it manually on arrival or expect a rather steep bill!! Note too that Mona doesn't have any AVGAS available and Caernarfon is your closest option for that (and reasonably priced if I remember) so make sure you have enough to get back there or top up on the way! Valley Radar doesn't operate at weekends and will not provide you with any service. The AIAA is dead quiet over the weekend. I would suggest you call Caernarfon Radio for traffic info as they get really busy and will let you know who's where around the Straits. There is a Flying Club at Mona who I am sure will assist you. Have a great trip!

[Whirlybird]

Having learned to fly at Welshpool, the Welsh hills were pretty much my local area and it never occurred to me - or anyone else from Welshpool AFAIK - to file a flight plan. However, it can't do any harm, and some of that area is quite isolated. I'd agree with what everyone else has said about the weather; it's quite rare to be able to fly over Snowdonia without either cloud or strong winds...but the coastal route is beautiful too. As for the radio, I've never had any problems getting hold of London Information, or using Liverpool when near the north coast. Have fun; it's a lovely area to fly in.

[In Altissimus]

Thanks for all the advice so far.

Looks like I'll be planning 3 routes then: over the top, to the east, and to the west.

Another question if I may; how much clearance over the mountains would be enough on a normal day to keep the passengers comfortable? Will a couple of thousand feet give clearer air, or are we talking tens of thousands?

Still undecided over the plan - especially as 'over the top' seems unlikely.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

After many years of having to use the coastal route to Caernarfon because of cloud on Snowdonia, a couple of summers ago I managed a Snowdon overfly in the Chippy. The scenery was quite stunning, and I was pleasantly surprised at the lack of bad turbulence - it was just a tad bumpy. We overflew only a few hundred feet over the summit due cloud at about 1500 above summit level - there is a handy 'get-out' if things get horrid; you can dive down into the valley to the north. But we had no such problems. Same goes if you get engine failure - glide down into a valley - there are some relatively flat areas by the rivers.

If you go during the week, it's esential to talk to Valley because the place is crawling with RAF Hawks, helos, and stuff.

Flight plan? I've never bothered (never occurred to me). Can't hurt to file one, I suppose.

[Whirlybird]

Just to maybe get a little perspective here...the very first flight I did alone after getting my PPL(A) was Welshpool-Wrexham-over Snowdonia to Caernarfon. It was a beautiful cloudless late September day, and I don't remember having any problems with the wind; I flew at around 5000 ft above Snowdonia, as far as I remember. I asked for advice in advance, and was told that in the event of engine failure I should head for the valleys; there are lots of these towards the north coast, and the fact that on a clear day you can see most of the coast is a great psychological help (apart from being totally stunning scenery wise). I talked to London Info and then Caernarfon, and had no problems.

However, by the time I came to leave Caernarfon the cloud had increased and I had to go round the north coast.

And, due to wx or work or whatever, I've never managed to repeat the experience. :(

[englishal]

Nothing wrong with going over mountains though I personally would leave at least 2000' between myself and the hills, if for nothing else to reduce turbulence. The other important factors are strange down drafts and giving yourself some insurance in case the unthinkable happens. I've experienced downdrafts in excess of 2000' / minute flying in the [too close to the....] mountains in the Western US which was quite frightening, I was wondering whether I was going to be able to climb before I hit the deck.

My view is do a flight plan if it gives you peace of mind, I wouldn't myself just becasue I think that it is more useful to let people [friends / family] know your route and ETA beforehand, and what to do if you don't arrive within say an hour. I carry a handheld ELT / handheld radio and mobile phone, so I feel pretty well covered if I were to FL.

Enjoy the flight though, mountain flying is wonderful, fantastic scenery...

Rgds
EA:D

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

If you can't get straight over the top of Snowdonia then I suggest routing to WPL then due West to Aberdovey estuary.

The hills you have to flyover are below 2000ft and are all rather flat topped and boggy - much nicer to glide/crash on than their rather steeper rockier North Wales cousins.

The VFR nav is easy as there is a sodding great railway line to pick up thst will guide you in South of Machynlleth. There are also some useful windfarms enroute. It takes only 30 mins from overhead WPL to Aberdovey.

Once you are in the estuary its easy to turn right and follow the coast to Anglesey.

Compared to routing up towards Wreham, LPL and then across the North coast this route:

a) requires a lot less r/t work
b) requires lower msa's
c) flies over better forced landing terrain
d) minimises any inadvertant straying into controlled airspace
e) has less traffic to see and avoid
f) is easier for VFR nav but radio nav is near impossible
g) going there this way then back the other way along the North Wales coast route will mean you don't have to cover the same scenery twice.


Good luck, its a nice trip.

WWW

[Aerobatic Flyer]

As already mentioned, an ELT / mobile phone / forewarned destination is probablyl a lot more use than a flight plan. With unpredictable weather over the mountains, your flight path is not going to be very predictable either - so if you don't show up at your destination the routing you marked on the flight plan has a good chance of being significantly different from your actual flight path.

Whirlybird

I asked for advice in advance, and was told that in the event of engine failure I should head for the valleys;

The problem with that is that the valleys are likely to have small fields surrounded by hedges or walls. An engine failure is likely to end in a nasty accident. Flying in the Alps, the advice is always to head for open ground above the treeline, and land uphill. You have a better chance of avoiding a high-speed collision with something hard. The downside, of course, is that if you do hurt yourself you are further away from help. (Other downside is that you will probably need to pay for a helicopter to collect what's left of your aeroplane.....)

[fireflybob]

I am somewhat surprised to detect a reluctance to file a flight plan. Notwithstanding that the destination may not be on the AFTN, I believe that the Welsh Mountains are considered difficult for Search & Rescue.

If you file a flight plan and you are overdue the authorities are obliged to take appropriate action. OK it takes a little bit more organising but I remain to be convinced that filing a plan is not an appropriate course of action for this type of flight.

The UK AIP contains advice/information where the aerodrome is not on the AFTN.

[Davidt]

As an alternative to flight plan use the "responsible person" system . If you have not called your nominated responsible person within 30 mins of your eta they should initiate overdue action.

I personally wouldnt think of filing to cross the hills but would only cross in clear conditions. Have had some wonderfull trips!

Mona has an a/g at weekends usually no one there but the radio man.I use it for circuit practice dead cheap and every time I have the circuit to myself. Caernavon's ony a hop for fuel.

for a cross country I'd talk London info but not just for a bimble round.

Valley listen out only at weekends for air sea rescue and get dead shirty if you call them probably interupts their telly!

[bookworm]

The "responsible person" system is not really an alternative to filing a FPL but an essential part of it when you're going somewhere which is not on the AFTN.

Without the FPL part, your responsible person has to deliver all the associated S&R information which they may not have easy access to. Without the "responsible person", the authorities won't know that overdue action needs to be taken.

[In Altissimus]

Again, thanks for all the advice. Especially the specific info from the 'locals' :D

I'm leaning towards not filing a plan - especially after my last experience with a compulsory one...

I'd filed by fax for a jolly to LFAT. Opened it in the air with Ldn info. Wx was borderline - so decided to go to Lydd as planned and make a decision there. Got to Lydd and it was a no-go, asked Ldn Info to cancel the plan and they refused! Told them I was returning to base. (I think they changed shift at this point). I asked to change base frequency about 10 miles from home - when I contacted base they had a message from Ldn Info asking what I was up to, and to contact them again (broadcast all over the clubhouse of course:ugh: ). They said they were confused, so I just repeated my intentions and they were OK. Cancelled the plan by fax 15 mins later.

Is it right that you can't cancel the plan from the air?

As the intended trip is highly subject to change (as discussed above), I'm not sure a file plan has much value. There will be responsible persons awaiting our arrival anyway, and I'll be in contact with Ldn Info nearly all of the way.

[david viewing]

I think that the VFR flight plan system in the UK is unsatisfactory and needs to be put right. It is also a minefield for pilots used to the US environment where things work properly. IMHO, the only purpose that a VFR flight plan serves in the UK is a regulatory one.

For instance, I suffered under the nieve illusion for years that if overdue on a FPL to an unattended field, failure to cancel by phone would result in the launching of helicopters as it would in the US. Not so!! CAA leaflet 20A "VFR Flight Plans" explains the pathetic UK system whereby you are responsible for alerting SAR yourself if you crash through a home made 'responsible person' system! (or by crawling to a farmhouse).

Believe it or not, they actually assume that you have arrived safely unless you tell them otherwise!

Fair enough, if you land at an AFTN field then they will close the plan automatically or alert on overdue, but in practice this just encourages bad habits of not conciously closing plans on arrival, habits that can bite badly in the US. I believe that the pilot should be responsible for his own plan, not a controller who may or may not have received a copy of it.

London Information won't close or amend plans because as I understand it they don't get copies, unlike the wonderful US FSS who are actually responsible for filing, activating and terminating VFR flight plans under pilot direction. That's the real reason why you can't close a plan in the air in the UK, not the 'Duty of Care' that some controller once flamed me with for having the temerity to query this shambolic state of affairs.

It is commonly held that VFR FPL's are unneccesary in the UK, but the Welsh and Scottish mountains are just as unhospitable as those in the US, especially in winter. And many of us route 'just offshore' where a glide might or might not reach the coast.

I think that students should be taught to use FPL's on long cross countries and that renter pilots should be required to use them over hostile terrain by operators, just like they are in the US. But to do this we would first need a method to modify or terminate plans from the air to allow flexibility and at present this type of request just seems to meet with a refusal.

Someone queried recently whether a life had ever been saved in the UK by an overdue action and it's a retorical question because the inability to change the routing from the air, combined with the unfavourable weather that might cause you to change route in first place mean that you are unlikely to be on the track you originally filed. But in the US lives are saved by FPL's and it's crazy that we don't simply adopt their methods.

[In Altissimus]

Thanks to everyone for the advice.

Mission safely accomplished despite a couple of minor hiccups. Eventual routing in both directions was exactly as WWW suggested.

Coming back yesterday evening, once we cleared the mists of Snowdonia, the visibility was fanastic - perfect flying conditions.