Adding a JAA IR to a PPL (whilst still working !)

[Hampstead]

Does anyone out there have any experience of adding a JAA IR to a PPL whilst still working full-time ?

Currently I'm a standard JAA PPL/IMC/Night but have recently bought into a syndicate flying a G registered TB-20 Trinidad that I plan to fly to France whenever I can to visit a timeshare place.

It would seem to me that a PPL/IR would make things a lot more predictable but I can't afford the time to do one full time. I appreciate that this means a distance learning theory course; I think I can manage that but how do you fit the flying training in ?

Any advice happily accepted.. thanks.

[Keef]

Been there. The "answer" is an N-reg aircraft and an FAA IR. Not quite the same amazingly high academic standard as the JAA IR, but achievable by ordinary people who want to fly IFR safely.

As far as I could tell, the piloting skills requirements for JAA and FAA IR are pretty similar. The FAA one has "currency" requirements, so you have to keep using it or it ceases to be valid after six months.

[rustle]

I think I can manage that but how do you fit the flying training in ?

Used to be that you couldn't start the flying training (for IR) until after you had passed all the Ground Exams...

Here's a plan:

Do the ground school via DL;
Do the (obligatory) week or two at "school" during annual leave from work;
then
Do the flying training on Sat/Sundays for a few weeks;
Do a few days intense, plus IRT (only available weekdays), in the last week of your training - again using annual leave from work.

I know several people who have done this... :)

[QNH 1013]

I've done it while working full-time but it was much harder than I imagined, and I wouldn't recommend doing what I did.
It is quite practical to do the written exams by distance learning while working full time, using some annual leave to do the (compulsary) brush-up course before taking the exams at Gatwick; more days off work for these.
The hard part, in my experience, is the flying training. I would recommend anyone to try and do this full time, i.e. 4 or at most 5 days a week and then 2 or 3 days off each week to recover. I couldn't do this because I was running my own very-demanding business, so I found a training organisation who could train me Friday, Sat, Sun, and Monday each week. They were very accomodating, but I underestimated my stamina and the strain of the training. I was finishing in the office Thursday afternoon, driving 200+ miles to Bournemouth and staying in a B&B, then starting flying training at 0800 on the Friday, ditto Sat, Sun, and Monday, and then driving 200+ miles home on Monday night. This left me Tues, Wed and Thursday each week to do a full weeks work in the office. After 3 weeks I didn't know whether I was coming or going and I'm sure it cost me more doing it this way, rather than full-time, but I had no choice.
Now that I have got it, it has opened up all sorts of benefits that I never imagined. You often find you are invited along on trips and get to fly nice aircraft, so the owner has a better chance of making it back on schedule, and without it, we would sometimes have been stuck for days.
If you have any more questions, send me a private message.

Go for it, and good luck !!

[englishal]

Another route to consider:

There are schools in the Uk which will train you for the FAA IR in the UK, but also cross train you for the JAA syllabus at the same time. If you have the FAA IR you can convert to JAA with a 15 hr course+ground exams, [5-10 of which can be in a flight sim] especially is you have been trained to JAA standards [more use of NDB's etc].

They take you through all the FAA IR stuff, exams etc in the UK, you can even do the FAA flight test in the UK once every 6 weeks or so [they get an examiner in from the US], or go to the states for a few days to do it. I don't know how much cheaper it is doing the FAA IR in the UK as it is to do the JAA one, but what you can do if you wish / have the time is do an intensive part of the FAA training in the US [say a week or so]. If you have more leave time, you can do all the flying in the US if you wanted.

The advantage of this route is that it is perfectly possible to do an FAA IR part time, especially if you have prior instrument time. The FAA IR takes into account previous instrument experience and in fact you only *need* a 15 hrs course with a CFII. The ground exams are easier and self study, and you also come out of it with effectively two IR's for the price of one. Theoretically if you have prior IT this route would allow you to walk away with a JAA IR and FAA IR in 30 hours, 10 of which could have been done in a sim.

There is a place at Enstone [Oxford] called Angel City Flyers I think [http://www.acflyers.co.uk] who can do this, they also have a nice TB20.

Cheers
EA:D

[Julian]

I flew their TB20 during my IR refresher and it is very nice indeed. Did Sheffield to Cambridge in 45mins!

Good instructor but book quick as he getting very busy as the FAA IR seems to be getting very popular IR to take by working guys so weekends are getting booked out! You may stand more chance if you have a midweek day off.

Enstone airfield is very nice as well although no instrument approach into it and its not that easy to spot in normal conditions.

[rustle]

Currently I'm a standard JAA PPL/IMC/Night

Don't you need an FAA/PPL to attach an FAA/IR to?

Might make the "...walk away with a JAA IR and FAA IR in 30 hours, 10 of which could have been done in a sim" a bit longer ;)

[Evo]

Don't you need an FAA/PPL to attach an FAA/IR to?


No - you can attach a full FAA/IR to a restricted FAA PPL. See
here (http://www.pplir.org/sub.cfm/id/146/cat/Using%20the%20rating/page/FAA%20%27Restricted%27%20Licenses). :)

[rustle]

Quid quo pro for my "Solent" reference?!

Rustle
Representing PPL/IR Europe in all AIS (only :rolleyes: ) things... :)

[Evo]

Maybe - but I still wish I'd kept my mouth shut at that pub... :) :)

[bluskis]

Angel City Flyers seems to be off the air internet wise.

[IO540]

Evo

Thank PPLIR link says

The restrictions on the certificate are chiefly that flying for remuneration (as with any other PPL) is not allowed and that the FAA certificate is valid only as long as the foreign license is valid. However, there is no geographical restriction. The restricted certificate allows its holder to fly an N-registered aircraft anywhere in the world.

which suggests that one could not fly oneself on one's business on it, for example.

The other advantage of doing the full FAA PPL is that the Class 3 medical is a lot easier than the Class 2 - relevant to many "older" people.

The question that arises is why would anyone want to do an JAA IR if the FAA IR isn't worth doing unless one has an N-reg plane, and if one has an N-reg plane there is no point in a JAA IR.... I suppose it makes sense if going to become a bizjet pilot?

[englishal]

Flying for renumeration is defined differently under the FARs, for example it is perfectly legal for an FAA PPL flying an N reg to be fully re-imbursed by their employer for a business flight [ie. employer pays all the costs, none of this equal share]....

Cheers
EA

PS ACF were online yesterday, maybe I mis-spelt my link

[Hampstead]

Thanks for all the replies and advice. I've done some further digging around on websites and made a few phone calls. It seems I may have a problem medical wise.

A couple of years ago I failed my class 1 medical on the audiogram. Only marginally and it's nothing serious (I had no idea there was anything wrong until the medical) but enough to fail the stringent Class 1 standards and enough to curtail my wannabe thoughts. Officially adding an IR to a PPL only needs a Class 2 but I read yesterday on the CAA website that an extra audiogram is needed too !

Does anyone know whether the audiogram is carried out to the same standards as the Class 1 medical ? If so, I'm stuffed ! (for a JAA IR at least).

Hampstead

[rustle]

Does anyone know whether the audiogram is carried out to the same standards as the Class 1 medical ?

I was informed it is by my AME - but you only have to pass it once... (it isn't done each medical renewal unlike for a Class 1)

Also, since your AME does it and not the CAA doctor, this may help -- my AME's office is FAR quieter than the CAA building so hearing is easier :)

[witchdoctor]

Alternatively, just take ME with you - IR qualified (until tomorrow - damn, there goes the free holiday!!!);)

[IO540]

Hampstead

Last time I checked, and I got this from the CAA in writing via my AME, the JAA PPL/IR needs the Class 1 audiogram. The requirements are on the CAA website somewhere and IIRC there is a max 20db difference between the two ears.

Rather bizzare for a PPL/IR though I suppose relevant to an airliner cockpit where the people don't seem to wear headsets much, and if they do they sometimes wear them on one ear only. It would be very hard to have a conversation in a jet cockpit if you've got one slightly bad ear.

englishal

If you have a JAA PPL, flying a G-reg plane, and you are flying on business, and you are an employee (or a Director) of that business, then it is classed as a Private Flight, and not only it is OK to do it on a PPL but also the company can pay for the whole flight, i.e. no need to worry about the CAA PPL cost sharing rules.

This is frequently done; the plane is owned by a separate limited company which invoices yourself (if it is your own pleasure flight; you are then free to recover some of that cost under the PPL cost sharing rules if you had passengers), or it invoices your business (if it is a business flight), or it invoices somebody else (if that person/company rents the plane).

The above is very common practice under both G-reg (both Public CofA and, in certain narrower circumstances, Private CofA planes) and N-reg operation. The pilot does have to be an employee of the company on whose business the flight is being done (though he does not need to have any connection with the company that owns the plane, so the plane can e.g. be leased), and he must not be contractually required to fly the plane.

The above is my understanding from having looked at it many times. The CAA itself is reluctant to comment on anything like this; usually they don't reply.

I don't think N-reg operation differs from the above, except that any renting (and all three cases above do amount to renting) requires a document called a "dry lease".

My concern was that with a "piggyback FAA PPL" (which is what that pplir.org page describes) one might not be able to do the above. This is an entirely separate issue from the UK "PPL cost sharing" thing.

Personally I would go for a full FAA PPL and perhaps let the JAA one lapse; I believe one can fly a G-reg on an FAA PPL, VMC only or something like that.... presumably you lose any IMC Rating but then you've got the FAA IR with which you can get the IMCR just by filling in a form and writing a cheque... but presumably if you wanted that one day you would have to get the JAA PPL back. Oh well... of course it all depends on what access you have to an N-reg plane. For an owner, the choice is trivial.