biggin air show

[vertigo]

anyone hear anything about an incident at biggin today ?

[Spoonbill]

No.

------------------
It wasn't me.

[JPJ]

Subject: Aircraft accident disrupts show - Ananova Alerting


The 39th Biggin Hill Air Show was disrupted when a jet crash-landed.

Former RAF pilot Clive Rustin escaped injury when the 1960s Venom plane got
into difficulty after its undercarriage developed a fault.

Cranes eventually moved the plane from the runway but the accident meant
the timetable of the show had to be altered.

Nick Smith, spokesman for the show, said it was unclear what had happened
to the plane: "Either the undercarriage failed to come down or it collapsed
underneath it as it came into land."

[Man-on-the-fence]

Spoonbill

If you have nothing to say, say nothing.

Another bad day, glad there were no injuries

[bumpsville]

Second incident at Biggin: Towards the finish of the display the remaining vampire and sea vixon went up to display and the vampire appears to have crashed to the northwest of the field for reasons unknown. Unsubstantiated rumours are that it may have hit houses.

[Bright-Ling]

BBC teletext report 2 dead after the second incident.

BBC News say that the London Ambulance Service have confirmed 2 crew died in the accident.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1366000/1366524.stm

Yet another sad day. My condolences.

[Superpilot]

I live about 10 miles north of Biggin and had tuned into Biggin Hill on my scanner (reception was very good). I heard the Vampire crew a few times in the circuit (delightful engine sound), all was well. I switched of the scanner briefly (no more than 3 mins) - thats the interval the unfortunate accident took place. Very sad news indeed.

[Smaug]

JB 007,

Fefuxake are you real or what? A Vampire was displaying with the Sea Vixen and the Vampire crashed. It would have been 18:00 or thereabouts. Jeez if you were airside you must surely have seen it !!

Smaug.

[heavychecker]

I was watching the airshow from a field at the eastern end of the runway. The vampire was approaching the runway to follow the Vixen and during this manoeuvre flight became unstable and the aircraft impacted the ground approx 200 feet away from me in the same field.

The whole experience was sickening as it was so close I felt the impact in the ground and smelled the kerosene. Even more horrible is to learn on pprune that 2 crew were on board. Let's have our thoughts with their families and their unimaginable grief right now.

[JB007]

Smaug..calm down..

Everyone has my sincere apologies if they thought I was been in anyway disrepectful to all those concered with the Vampire accident.

I most definatly was not..

And yes..I was completely un-aware of any serious accident involved at Biggin Hill yesterday only the incident regarding a gear-up landing...I'd finished work and left BIG well before 1800.

My above post, as fence mentioned and for the sake of smaug's blood-pressure, has been deleted.

------------------
Regards JB007!
[email protected]
Flight Ops,Crewing and Dispatch Moderator

[This message has been edited by JB007 (edited 03 June 2001).]

[strikemaster/cpl]

FROM ONE WHO HAS WALKED AWAY FROM A JET CRASH (JP LAST YEAR,HOLLAND) IT MADE ME THINK JUST WHAT WE TAKE ON WHEN WE STRAP INTO ONE OF THESE 'OLD LADIES'ALTHOUGH I'M BACK IN THE SADDLE AND HAVE JUST 'REVALIDATED' MY 'DA'.I CONTINIOUSLY CHECK AND RE-CHECK ALL POINTS OF MY A/C BEFORE I GO UP. YESTERDAY WAS A GOOD EXAMPLE FOR THIS AS I WAS DUE TO FLY LATE P.M BUT SOMETHING DIDN'T FEEL RIGHT SO WE RE-CHEKD THE A/C THOROUGHLY.AND BINGO! MAIN OLEO LEG ON PORT SIDE WEEPING BRAKE FLUID.UNDER PRESSURE TEST IT BLEW!
OBVIOUSLY MY GUARDIAN ANGEL WAS AROUND.
MY THOUGHTS GO TO THOSE WHO WEEP AND WITH THOSE WHO 'HAVE TOUCHD THE FACE OF GOD'

[Ivchenko]

Sympathies and condolences.

I wonder why there were 2 POB. Passenger carrying is banned on display flights and the rule is strictly enforced.

If the accident occurred during a post display departure that would explain it, but it appears from the news to have happened during the display.

[Man-on-the-fence]

Ivchenko

2 POB possibly something to do with C of G limits. The old JP T.3 display always had two in for that very reason (something to do with wingtip tanks in that case I think - ok for normal flight, but needed for aeros)

JB007

Thanks for that, I figured you must have missed it.

[rightbank]

Have sadly just heard the news on local radio that another aircraft has crashed at Biggin. A "WWII American fighter". No other details yet.

A truly sad weekend.

[Top Loadie]

Further to your earlier posts guys, I've just seen this on the Teletext pages.

NEWS STORY 3/6/01

FIGHTER CRASHES AT AIRSHOW
A Second World War fighter has crashed into the ground and exploded in a ball of flame at the Biggin Hill Airshow -just 100 yards away from the crowd.

The crash is the second tragedy at the Kent show in two days after two men were killed when their De Havilland Vampire fell from the skies yesterday.

It was not known how many were on board today's plane or if they survived.

My condolences go to all those involved in both incidents.
I hope that some comfort can be gained from the fact that these people were, at the time, involved in a pastime that they held very close to their hearts.

www.teletext.co.uk/news/story.asp?intSubSectionID=1&intRegionID=19&intArticleNumber=1&indent=1 (http://www.teletext.co.uk/news/story.asp?intSubSectionID=1&intRegionID=19&intArticleNumber=1&indent=1)

Any further information....

[Hagbard the Amateur]

Further reportage can be found here on the new incident;
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_314229.html?menu=news.latestheadlines

My sympathy goes out to the relatives of all souls lost at this show.

[Man-on-the-fence]

Typical half assed reporting

They said the P-63 was a jet, useless bastards

MOTF (In tears as I post this)

[india_bravo]

A sad 2001 Biggin Hill Airshow and our deepest simpathies must go to the family and friends of those killed over the weekend.

[CRX]

It is with utter disbelief that I read these posts, not that I am naive enough to think it can never happen, but twice at one event?
As someone who has aspired and is still aspiring to join the ranks of display pilots I am extremely saddened to hear of these accidents. Even in the ten years that I have been flying I have lost count of the number of 'warbird' and display accidents and the good men we have lost.
CRX.

[WhiteSail]

This must go down as one of the worst weekends in living memory, as far as air shows are concerned.

My deepest condolences to the families and friends of those involved.

[DB6]

Jesus Christ.

[VFE]

Terrible news.

My condolences to those concerned.

[Squatter]

I've just got in from the Biggin show where I saw the last couple of seconds of the accident flight. It seemed to go into the trees at a pretty steep angle and there was a big pall of smoke - it was fairly apparent that it was unlikely to be survivable. It was a lot more than 100yds from the crowd line as has been reported though, right over the opposite side of the runway to where the crowd was. I could see the fire engines doing their job very quickly but we tried to leave asap. It's a pretty sobering experience to see one of your fellow flyers lose their life in front of your eyes like that, I just wanted to get out of there. All the airfield exits were sealed for about 50 minutes though stopping anyone leaving to allow the emergency services free access to unclogged roads outside. The stewarding and organisation of access routes was excellent, I have to say, despite the heavy traffic. The on airfield "Air Fair" radio station was brilliant keeping you informed why we weren't being allowed to leave - preventing a lot of frustration, and stewards were walking up and down from car to car keeping people informed. 10/10 to the organisers in very unfortunate circumstances.

[Ivchenko]

Whitesail

No consolation on such a dreadful day, but 1996 was as bad; I think I'm correct in remembering that the Mosquito at Barton and the P-38 at Duxford were lost on the same day.

Things seemed to improve after that - we all felt that accidents seem to come in concentrated little patches - but last year was awful and this last couple of months has just been unbelievable.

A point made at the display pilot's conference earlier this year was that it's not newbies or hooligans who are having accidents, but experienced, careful pilots.

What a dreadful weekend.

[New Bloke]

I've just got back from Biggin and saw it go in. I was in the farmers field in Addington just accross the valley from Biggin. I was queing for an Ice cream with the kids as it (Aircobra ?) flew over, I turned my back and the noise of the engine made me turn back, I saw it nose down, it then went behind some trees and I waited for what seemed an eternity for it to come out. All that emerged was that dreadfull pall of firery smoke.

My Dad saw the whole thing (a non Pilot) he says the Aircraft did a "stall turn" and as soon as the nose was pointing down he knew it was in trouble.

As John Farley says, someone had a quick end doing what they love. Not much consolation for his family, but some. My thoughts are with his family, friends and the two other professional display pilots (Mustang and Spit I think) who had to climb to about 1500' and circle the field.

A sad sad day.

edit for spelling

[This message has been edited by New Bloke (edited 03 June 2001).]

[Foxxy]

Sincere condolences to Ken and Jonathon's family.(Names have been released)

Having watched Clive land with the gear up, shortly after we landed in the morning, and then Ken spiral into the dirt with Jonathon onboard at the end of the show, i felt physically sick.
It was a very bad day, from which a lot of lessons will be learnt, the only thing any of us can do who were there and watched Saturdays incidents is let Rod Dean (CAA SRG) and jet warbird driver know how these unnecessary accidents occured and get him to re-visit SOP's in his own hobby house!

I could not believe my ears after being told of todays tragic accident, as the Cobra was being flown very well yesterday with no hint of being close to his "DA" limits.

A tragic weekend, with sad consequences but I for one will be voicing my concerns to RD in the hope that, maybe with others a fresh look at displays will happen?

I cannot comment on the Cobra accident at all, but both incidents on Saturday should never have happened.

The AAIB will no doubt come to the same conclusion in its report, from which we await the release of before full conclusions and remedies can be implemenmted.

What a CR** weekend.

God bless you all, and say hello to Norman and Mark for me!

[Smaug]

Ivchenko / Man on Fence.

I dont know the rules as you guys obviously do, but I was with the Red Arrows (groundcrew) for a while a few years back and my understanding of the rules then were that passengers could not be carried on displays. Yet I noted that the back seat was occupied on one Reds aircraft on the Saturday display. Maybe the rules have changed - I dont know, but in the light of the Vampire tragedy it would appear to be common sense not to carry a passenger unless it was absolutely necessary, would it not?

[Smaug]

Sorry, hadnt read page 2 when I posted my last. What a f**k awful weekend. God be with those who have lost people they love.

Per Ardua..

[Too Fat to Fly]

I've just got back from Biggin where I saw the whole appalling thing. My hands are still shaking as I type this.

The P-63 Kingcobra was flying a tailchase display with and A-4 Syraider and a P-47 Thunderbolt. The formation had split up and the P-63 peeled off into a tight loop but appeared to stall pulling out of it. The aircraft then pitched nose down violently and although the pilot attempted to recover, he ran out of altitude and crashed among trees about 50 yards from the tower, 20 yards from parked GA aircraft on the apron and 20 yards from the main road. There was a massive expolsion, the fireball must have gone up 200-300 feet, and although the emergency services were on the scene in seconds it was painfully obvious that the pilot could not have survived.

My sincere condolences to the pilots family, friends and colleagues at the Fighter Collection, and those colleagues here on PPrune, too.

(The pilot has been named elsewhere but I shall not disclose the name as I don't know if this was official)

[land at your discretion]

I'd like to congratulate the Biggin Hill AFS who appeared to arrive at today’s scene within seconds of the incident. Thanks also to Air Traffic who was theire normal very professional and friendly self’s even during these very sad times.

Do we have any Biggin ATCO's lurking?

Please, no more accidents.......ever.

[Zlin526]

Foxxxy, I think as with all aircraft accidents, it's way too early to speculate on what caused them from the comfort of your PC chair. Do you really believe the usual made-up bull**** from the media which suggested the Vampire had flown over the crowd four times before crashing? Do it once and you get a verbal warning. Do it twice and you get told to go away in no uncertain terms. Three times? Nahh. Four times? No wonder people don't like flying.
And ranting about 'Rod Dean and his hobby house' will not prevent aircraft accidents, this sounding more like a personal vendetta against the CAA rather than informed opinion. Of anybody working at the Belgrano, Rod would be the first to suggest changes to the SOP's where they were needed. What will help to prevent accidents is to learn from whatever errors/failures contributed in the first place and to act on those lessons. And as I have said before, the pages of this forum are not the place for un-informed peeps to be airing their views. I await the AAIB reports with interest. Nuff said really!
My Condolences to Ken, Jim and the other pilot's respective families. (name not released yet).

[pietenpohl]

I have recently returned from Biggin. I was in the crowd right opposite the crash site. The Cobra appeared to be pulling up for a loop having just broken off from the tailchase ( as No 3 ). The wind was towards the crowd-line and he appeared to be getting very close to the line because of this. As he approached near to the vertical it seemed to me that he realized his proximity to the crowd and pulled round to his right (crowd left). It was then a fast sequence of movements - it seemed to me that he may have autorotated through a little more than 360 degrees such that his final track was approx 20 deg off the display line heading away from the crowd. He then impacted in a steep nose down attitude only just beginning to pull out of the dive. As previous reporters have said, the impact was well over 100 yards away from the crowd, probably more like three to four hundred metres away. I was stunned and felt sick to the pit of my stomach to see a fellow aviator die like that. My thoughts are with his friends and family.


[This message has been edited by pietenpohl (edited 04 June 2001).]

[Man-on-the-fence]

I am sorry to say the gutter press are out again.

This form the Sky News website

"Journalist Benedict Parsons, from Crondall, Hampshire, said: "He tried to show off in front of the crowds. It looked as if he was trying to keep up with two far more powerful aircraft. The aircraft looked under-powered for the manoeuvres it was trying to do."

So thats it then....

Or was he just trying to get his name in the papers :mad: :mad:

[Iain]

Very sad that people say such a thing!
Iain

[Stonebird]

I witnessed the Vampire crash. The Vamp was tucked close in under the Vixen's tail as they turned out, and suddenly the Vamp just fell away. It looked like it may have been a highspeed stall, or savage turbulence from the Vixen.

I have digital photos. Does anyone know the email address of the AIB please?

My heartfelt condolences to the families of the deceased.

To the pilots who died. There should be a word which means, "Sorry" and "Thankyou" together....but words just aren't enough.

I am very upset.

[Man-on-the-fence]

Stonebird

Their URL is below, the contact details are on there.

http://www.aaib.detr.gov.uk/index/index.htm

MOTF

[airforcenone]

Condolences to all. A dreadful weekend.

[Mowgli]

A tragic loss of three brave men who knew the risks involved but entertained thousands with their skills and beautiful machines.

RIP

[Foxxy]

Zlin 526, you must be on something, as i cannot see anything in my post that relates to anything you have said in your's.

If you were not there, and did not see it happen, and you were not another display pilot or any other pilot waiting to line up and depart then wind your neck in!

[New Bloke]

One of the things I found most distressing was the video image on the news last night, not the plume of smoke so much. The idea that someone has taken a video and then presumably is on the ‘phone to the BBC asking how much will they get for it.

Well done Stonebird for your sensitive and proper enquiry.

Again my heart goes out to the family and friends of all three pilots and the pilots of the two remaining warbirds forced to circle the field while the emergency services attended their friend and colleague. What must have be going through their minds I can only imagine.

[Rallye Driver]

I was at Biggen on Sunday and was directly opposite where it happened. Having read the so-called 'eye witness' accounts in the paper this morning I wondered if I was at the same event - too much speculation, too little fact.

Truly a tragic weekend. My condolences to the families, friends and colleagues of those killed.

[VivaTheBeaver]

I witnessed the tragic event on Sunday, standing in the crowd across the airfield, as the aircraft reached the top of its loop it soon became apparent that it was in trouble. I watched helplessly with the rest of the crowd as the aircraft fell to the ground. I felt sick and a tear came to my eye as I saw the ball of fire on the other side of the field. I didn’t know the pilot, but would like to offer my deepest sympathies to his family.

To happier times.

VTB

[tiger burn]

My sincere condolences to the families,friends & colleagues of those who so tragically lost their lives this weekend. I was at Old Warden yesterday & the news that a second fatal crash had occurred at Biggin was met with stunned disbelief. Having lost 2 friends (both warbird display pilots)in previous accidents I have searched for a few words to reflect my respect in these circumstances.

We thank them for the joy they gave to the thousands who watched them fly. We thank them for their professionalism & enthusiasm which have touched and inspired so many of all ages. We thank them for their passion for both flying & for life.

RIP
(remembering also MH&TM)

[BOAC]

Like all here I mourn the losses of the weekend. Sunday took away a colleague and friend. Being out of the country I have not seen the names of the Vampire crew.

Sincerest condolences to all who have lost.

Per Ardua ad Astra.

[CRX]

Just read on Sky and BBC websites that the P63 pilot has been named as Guy Bancroft-Wilson, a BA pilot based at LGW. I seem to remember he was a member of the Red Arrows in the early nineties, possibly manager?
Deepest sympathies to all those who knew him particularly his wife and three young children.
CRX

[swashplate]

Condolonces to all concerned........bloody awful weekend. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

I seem to remember a doc on the Red Arrows about 1990. If I remember rightly, there was a Pilot Flt Lt called Guy Bancroft-Wilson. The double-barrelled name stuck in my memory....

------------------
Live long and Prosper.....

[jeremy]

Guy was Red 9 in 87, 2 in 88 and 4 in 89. RIP

[neutral99]

Foxxy
Although Zlin526 may have been a little harsh, I agree with his sentiments. Three people have just lost their lives.
Unless, I have also completely misunderstood, you did seem to be blaming the pilots. Isn't it rather insensitive to make such comments at such a painful time for their family and friends?
Your conclusions may be right, I can't comment. I didn't see the accidents and, even if I had, I wouldn't be as quick as you to jump to conclusions.
You seem to be arguing for more interference by the CAA in air shows. Don't you have confidence in display pilots to make their own decisions? Most of my display flying was in the 80's when CAA interference was minimal, and when the HAA was still just an association of like-minded people with a common interest in displaying historic aircraft. I think it was better then.

Smaug
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">" ..... in the light of the Vampire tragedy it would appear to be common sense not to carry a passenger unless it was absolutely necessary, would it not?</font>
No. I don't agree. Passengers who ride in the back of a display aircraft are invariably closely involved in the display world and almost invariably involved in the operation of the a/c concerned. They are fully aware of the risks involved, that the a/c may develop a fault, that the pilot may make a mistake, and that any accident is highly likely to be fatal. In my view, we should not interfere with the right of a consenting adult to make that decision about his own life. I'm not a supporter of the 'nanny state' interfering in the free informed choice of someone to take a risk. (I obviously take a different view if the safety of third parties is involved.)
Before the rules were changed, we frequently rode in the back in someone else's display. I would do both again, and believe that I should have the freedom to decide for myself whether to take the risk.
Perhaps a suitable compromise would be that the passenger must be a pilot.

My sincere condolences to the families and friends of those who died. I hope it's some small comfort that, like all display pilots, they'd got so much enjoyment doing what they loved.

[Foxxy]

Neutral99, why on earth would i be "blaming" friends that i knew, as i am an EGHH pilot myself, there is a huge difference between saying they died unessarily, and saying it was pilot error - which, for the record no one has said, and the only organisation that can is the AAIB.

And for the record yes i do believe that procedures do need to be looked at with regard to DA's and the flying it involves.

[shocka]

Just read a book by USAAF Flt Lt Ted Park on his Aeracobra experiences in New Guinea.
Very interesting reading.

[ETOPS]

I have just learned of the very tragic loss of a friend and colleague Captain Guy Bancroft-Wilson. When Guy joined BA he initially operated on the 757/767 fleet in LHR and LGW as a co-pilot. He and I flew together on a number of times and as I was well aware of his history felt honoured to have "Red 4" as my No 2. More than that, Guy was a tremendously nice man as well as a talented pilot and never once mentioned his service career unless pushed to.
Last year he bid for and achieved a 737 Command at LGW were again I saw him regularly as I operated through there on longhaul 767 operations. I could tell that he slipped into "Captain mode" with ease and I had the pleasure of a jumpseat ride to MAN with Guy at the helm which simply confirmed his obvious skill.
I could go on but will simply finish thus:- All of us here love aviation in all it's forms but Guy has paid the highest price for that passion. We cannot afford to lose people of his calibre.........

My deepest sympathies to his family and friends.


Richard Bennison
Captain BA777

[swashplate]

ETOPS (Cap'n Bennison);

Just out of interest, do you mean that he commanded B737 without having flown them before as co-pilot?
I thought you had to fly a type as co-pilot before command, then you could transfer..??? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

Not having a go at anyone, just interested.

Of course, I re-iterate my condolences on his and everyone else's deaths on this ghastly weekend.



[This message has been edited by swashplate (edited 04 June 2001).]

[Final 3 Greens]

After the terrible weekend at Biggin, it is easy to become very depressed.

I was just thinking on the drive into Heathrow this morning about the pleasure that the warbird display pilots give to all of us.

My son is only six years old; in his short life, he has learned to love aeroplanes and has seen countless Spitfires, Hurricanes and Mustangs, as well as many other types such as Thunderbolt, Sea Fury, Invader, B17, Lancaster, Hunter and Mosquito.

The joy on his face when he sees an old warbird ("nearly as old as Grandad") is a sight to see.

Thanks to all of you display pilots, past and present, for letting us share very special sights that otherwise would only exist in books or on film.

[Secret Squirrel]

Having had experience of a similar nature, though not in aviation, from the point of view of his family and friends, in amoungst all their grief - and it will be much - their only consolation will be that this fine young man died doing what he loved most. This is more than will be able to be said about most of us postumously.

My deepest sympathies to his wife and three young children as well as to all his friends.

Swashplate:

Just to answer your question, as I'm sure it will be lost in the melee: My friend's dad spent 17 years in the right hand seat of various aircraft - latterly the 737 - and moved to the left hand seat of a 747 at BA.

[poetpilot]

Re: earlier comment by "Whitesail". The 1996 incidents occurred one week apart. I was one of the organisers at Barton in July 96 and the events are etched indelibly on my mind.

Sympathies to all concerned at the weekend - and I would like to express sympathy/empathy with the organisers, crash crews, etc who were directly involved - having been through the experience, I know how you are feeling right now. Took me a long time to get over it (arguably I still havent).

[Notso Fantastic]

Notso, I've edited this message out because I think it will take the thread down an avenue we do not wish it to go. I fully understand the motive behind your words, and having briefed alongside and accepted an aircraft off Captain Bancroft-Wilson many times feel a keen sense of loss.

I am sure you'll understand why I'm doing this, and also that after your anger has subsided you will agree with me.

Sick Squid
Rumours and News Moderator and fellow BA Captain



[This message has been edited by Sick Squid (edited 04 June 2001).]

[AC-DC]

I haven’t been to Biggin this year, but I witnessed the 1996 crash of the P-38 Lightning at Duxford. It happened about 150’ away and straight opposite from where I stood. I steal can see the dust coming from the left prop, the wing tip moving up and down and than a very big, hot and bright ball of fire. I felt numb for the rest of the day.

As much as I love aviation this weekend events bring to my mind the question, is it worth it? Good people lose their life in order to provide us with entertainment, lovely aircraft that can not be replaced are lost forever. Isn’t it better to stick with the straight and level, some 30º or 60º turns and that is? Isn’t the paid price just too high?

[Sick Squid]

I wouldn't normally step in like this, but to answer Swashplates question, you do not have to have previously flown an aircraft as a co-pilot in order to do a command course on that type.

If anyone wishes to discuss the procedure for gaining a command then please do so on Tech Log. Lets keep this thread on what is a sad and emotional topic,and refrain from sideline discussions or personal attacks.

A very sad weekend for aviation, more so for all the families and friends of the unfortunate fellow pilots.

Sick Squid
Rumours and News Moderator

[This message has been edited by Sick Squid (edited 04 June 2001).]

[TobyJ]

Just a quick message to add my sympathy and pass on condolences to the families and friends of those involved in the tragic accidents over the weekend.

I have not been flying long and this is the first time a colleague and friend has been involved so it comes somewhat as a shock. I met Guy just after he took his command at Gatwick and was instantly taken to his open and friendly character. Knowing him for only a short time I can still honestly say that he will be sadly missed.

[swashplate]

Point taken, £6!

Was just interested, but should really have thought before posting!!

Many apologies - see you at the bash!

[AquaPlane]

The events of the weekend show what a fragile and unforgiving world we live in. Deepest sympathies to the families and friends of those who have lost their lives.

I was present at the loss of the Mossie in 1996 at Barton and remember how I felt. You definitely do not forget things like that overnight. Having rushed to the accident scene (I was present at the show with a senior fire officer for the region and drove him immediately to the scene) I remember the devastation I saw and it's certainly not something I'd ever like to happen again, let alone witness. It's one of those things that really tuns your stomach and brings tears to your eyes. The chaps in these aircraft paid the ultimate price to entertain us enthusiasts and fellow aviators and it sinks my heart to hear of these tragedies.

[Pontius]

I thought I'd stop losing friends in air accidents when I joined civil aviation and now I lose another close friend and company colleague.

Guy was a highly motivated BA Captain and a very skilled and knowledgeable pilot. I have the pleasure of knowing him through Service flying, display flying and latterly on the 757/767. A nicer and more genuine person you could not meet.

It was just over a week ago that we were catching up on old times and discussing his schedule for this display season. He was a happy and contented man and I hope his wife and his can take some solace from that.

It may sound cliched, but Guy lived life to the full and I believe he died enjoying what he was doing.

My thoughts are with his family and those for whom he flew. We are devastated by this tragic news and can only hope the pain passes as quickly as possible.


RIP Guy

Pontius

[poetpilot]

re AC-DC's comment on restricting display flights of older aircraft.

One part of me says yes, that may be a way to preserve good aeroplanes and good pilots.... the other half says that somehow, fate seems to play a hand in these things and take them from us whatever we do or say.

Take the mossie in 96 at Barton. His display was tame by any standards. Straight passes, 30 degree turns, maintained throttle settings all the way through. He hit his engine problem as he levelled out at the end of the display.

I'd talked to the guy before the display - he'd told me enough about the way he conducted his flights to assure me that he flew with prime aim of preserving that aircraft and himself. Yet it got him.

History is littered with these incidents and although we can analyse and criticise, weep or wonder, we'll never be able to stop things happening. The air is like the sea - unpredictable, savage and cruel at times, yet it draws us back and holds us.

We need to grieve, yes, but on balance I think we still need to see these magnificent planes and pilots in their true element, and to accept the risks that occasionally have such tragic consequences as this last weekend.

Sorry if that sounds pompous, it wasnt meant to be - just trying to make sense of it all and failing really.....

[springbok449]

My deepest sympathy and thoughts go out to Guy's and other pilots concerned families.
Regards.
Bokkie449.

[JOCKEY]

I joined the RAF with Guy and went through flying training with him. He was a wonderful chap. Full of life, witty and a great pilot.

Fly high mate.

[Notso Fantastic]

Squid,

Point taken, and my apologies. The posting that provoked it was so insensitive I think it should be removed too. Regards.

[Row 12F]

I saw the crash on Sunday and have given a few thoughts to the circumstances.

The Aircobra was flown by a mature, experienced professional pilot. It seems unlikely that he would have done anything reckless or unplanned. This was the second day of an airshow and presumably he and the others in the group has flown a similar set of moves the day before; it would be interesting to examine video from the first, safe display to see if that manoeuvre were included and how it had been executed. A loop at that point in the chasing backwards and forwards by the whole troupe of US fighters / bombers seems on reflection to have been a little out of place. Biggin Hill, who have names and addresses of all advance ticket purchasers, should contact all of them with a request for video footage of the first day's display.

The Aircobra went into loop from a relatively low altitude, appeared to hold the vertical climb a little too long, stalled, flipped over and began an apparently difficult and uncontrollable descent. The top part looked at first similar to the Pitts Special display at the top of a loop but soon became apparent that the plane could not recover. I would recollect that it had dropped between a third and half of its height before any semblance of control appeared. By that time, at an angle of 85 degrees and dropping fast he stood no chance of recovery.

I understand that the Aircobra has its engine well set back from the front, nearer to the middle than most fighters and this must make it different, and probably very difficult, to control in a vertical or an inverted stall.

Bearing all of those things in mind, I would not be surprised to learn, if such facts can be found from the wreckage, that something mechanical had gone wrong some seconds before the crash. Could the low level loop have been caused by a loss of control on the elevators or perhaps power was lost on upper part of the climb into the loop?

Sadly such thoughts are of little use to the family of the pilot; he was giving a display, pleasure to thousands of enthusiasts and hopefully enjoying a hobby that keeps alive memories, sights and sounds of past times. My deepest condolences to all of his family.

[Spoonbill]

A truly dreadful weekend, not only at Biggin, but also for the other parties elswhere in the UK who were injured in the other various accidents this weekend.
Sincere condolences to the families of all those affected.
:mad:Man on the Fence - when I saw the opening post on this subject I had no idea of what had happened, and thinking there may be a hidden agenda, I answered truthfully.

[Speedbird1]

Very Accurately presented row 12f.
I was also there yesturday and had a clear view of the entire incident.it didn`t sink in then but after a bit of thought it has depressed me a bit. I live 10 mins from biggin and have been every year for the last 12 years. Its very upsetting for this to happen. i`m 18 and a hopeful commercial pilot.people have asked me whether this sort of thing puts me off but i say it gives you determination to reach your goal and prove to people that aviation is safe and wonderful. The risk is there but it is not of primary concern to people when flying. Do you guys out there think i`m right in thinking this? views would be appreciated.

may god bless the 3 display pilots that died for all of their work and pleasure they gave to audiences world-wide while they were alive and may they rest in peace.

my respects go out to

The unknown pilot of the king cobra (please correct me if his name has been realeased)

Retired Air Marshal sir Ken Hayr
Co-pilot Jonathon Kerr
(the two pilots from biggins saturday vampire crash)

and on another note
Gordan and Jennifer Gray who also died yesturday when their light aircraft hit a mountain in Italy

I hope you all join me in paying respects to these brave people

thanks

[Man-on-the-fence]

Spoonbill

No problem.

This was one of the saddest weekends that I can remember. My thoughts go to all of those affected by this weekends accidents.

God Bless.

[NigelOnDraft]

Row 12F

&lt;&lt;appeared to hold the vertical climb a little too long, stalled&gt;&gt;

Would all please stop trying judge what happended, and leave it to the AAIB.

If 'Row 12F' had a clue what he was talking about he would not have posted the above...

For those not experienced in aviation, the only time you cannot stall an aircraft while flying is in the vertical!

RIP Guy - a good mate, who some years back after a chat (as my Sqn boss) got me my dream FJ posting...

NoD

[NorthernSky]

'I never felt magic crazy as this
I never saw moons knew the meaning of the sea
I never held emotion in the palm of my hand
Or felt sweet breezes in the top of a tree
But now you're here
Brighten my Northern Sky'

Some of the emotions we feel as aviators are summed up by Nick Drake (1958-74) in the lyric above.

Those of us lucky enough to fly 'interesting' aircraft from time to time feel these more keenly than most, perhaps. Those who take old and venerable aircraft towards their limits do so in the knowledge that the risks are greater; and those they leave behind might understand that this is not an undertaking embarked upon lightly.

Joy is seldom without risk; perfect contentment is always beyond reach; but men strive.

We know freedom, it has it's price, but we don't all get to pay. We know and deal with the loss of those who pay on our behalf.

RIP those lost recently, and longer ago. Let us pray we never look back on a weekend like this again, and may we all have the grace and wisdom to provide those left behind with the support they need.

[This message has been edited by NorthernSky (edited 04 June 2001).]

[Zlin526]

Foxxxy, I was at the show, saw the whole Kingcobra display from start to tragic finish and yes, I am a current display pilot. So I think perhaps I am slightly more in the picture about what happened on Sunday than you seem to be. So, in answer to your post, I will keep my neck out exactly where it is thanks!
The UK Air Display regs are there for the safety of the public. As in all facets of aviation, air displays need to be regulated and the UK system is, in my view fair and currently pitched at the right level of rules versus freedom to fly how you want. Short of telling display pilots to fly no lower than 1500ft & no closer than 2 miles from the crowd, there really is no justification to change current limits. The 2 accidents that happened over the weekend at Biggin Hill would not have been avoided had the DA requirements been tightened. For your info, there has been not one fatality involving a member of the public since the DH110 crash at Farnborough in 1952. Surely, that must say something for the regulations?
And as for the TV & media! When are those ignorant w*nkers going to get any info correct about anything that happens in aviation. It makes me so angry!!!!!!!!!!!Why do all aircraft fly over the crowd? Why does the engine always stall? And why does the gallant pilot always steer the aircraft away from members of the public? And why do the media always pick the most uninformed idiot as an eyewitness? Any members of the media industry care to comment on how you distort the facts so well?

[This message has been edited by Zlin526 (edited 04 June 2001).]

[#1AHRS]

There are just too many airshow accidents with such tragic losses. Great displays but at rather a high price.

[UKPPL]

Hi,

Such a sad, sad day. I was at Biggin on Sunday with my son, when it happened right in front of me.

I've never seen anything like it before and hope I never will again. It made me feel sick.

Three accidents at Biggin in two days, such a shame.

I've just read on the WWW that a Spitfire from UK has been involved in a fatal crash in Northern France.

My thoughts are with the famillies concerned.

[InFinRetirement]

I agree with you NS. I spent 10 years on the display circuit and the ultimate price of flying some wonderful aeroplanes was ever present. Somehow, you weighed the risks, and then ignored them, while still keeping a sense of well-being in what you were doing.
All the time trying to give your 5 or 6 minutes to the audience who came to watch.

As John Farley said, you never got used to losing a friend, but you had to accept that it was going to happen.


<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">What kind of man would live where there is no daring? I don't believe in taking foolish chances, but nothing can be accomplished without taking any chance at all.</font>

Charles Lindbergh


May they share with God, those who arrived before them whose names live in aviation for evermore.

[Man-on-the-fence]

Zlin thingy

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">And as for the TV & media! When are those ignorant w*nkers going to get any info correct about anything that happens in aviation. It makes me so angry!!!!!!!!!!!Why do all aircraft fly over the crowd? Why does the engine always stall? And why does the gallant pilot always steer the aircraft away from members of the public? And why do the media always pick the most uninformed idiot as an eyewitness? Any members of the media industry care to comment on how you distort the facts so well?</font>


But with the standard of journalism at an all time low in this country, what can we do to change things.

I include your quote in full because it sums things up perfectly.

[This message has been edited by Man-on-the-fence (edited 04 June 2001).]

[Zlin526]

And from the other end of the spectrum, how about this then from 'Flights' informed mouthpiece, David Learmount who seems to be wheeled out of semi-retirement every time an aviation related topic needs some clarification for the great unwashed:

quote:
"Air display accidents are usually because of some form of pilot misjudgement when the craft is flying fairly low to the ground," said David Learmount, operations and safety editor of Flight International magazine.

"When you are carrying out a display which is taxing your skills and if you make a misjudgement or if something goes twang in the plane, you've got very little time to sort it out. If you were higher, you'd have plenty of time to sort it out."

There are more than 500 air shows in the United States alone and experts say more Britons attend similar shows in this country than they do soccer matches.

The pressure to serve up low-flying acrobatic thrills for avid crowds may lead pilots to take chances they otherwise wouldn't, Learmount said.

"It's like Formula One racing, most of the time you have thrills and spills and nobody gets hurt. But it is show business. If you don't give an exciting display, what on earth are people coming for?" Learmount said.

Errrm, because they like to see aeroplanes where they belong, flying and in the sky perhaps?. State the obvious or what! Says it all really doesnt it????

If our own industry publications cant publish informative news, then what hope is there for the rest of them?

[ayrprox]

I only saw the footage on the news and was p#!??d off as well. as has been previously said only the AAIB can make any informed judgement as to the cause of this dreadful accident. NO display pilot would be reckless or "show off" its not in their interest to do so.
my deepest condolences go out to the families of the three pilots

[old-timer]

so, so, unbelievably sad & tragic,


may their spirits soar the heavens eternally .

RIP chaps.

[JPJ]

I am as upset about these tragedies as anyone, but let's not be too harsh on the journos. In particular, David Learmount's piece makes a lot of sense. He spoke to a PPRune gathering last year, and he made the point that he has to get a crisp story into very little time.

[Mig15]

I understand the feelings you are going through.
If you remember the Vintage Pair (Vampire/Meteor) that crashed at Mildenhall some time ago.
The feelings I had were unsurmountable. I'd gone to Mildenhall for as many years as I ccould remember, but that day I had tears im my eyes and had to leave the show.

Please don't condemn these people, they give up their free time to entertain us. Nobody should speculate as to the cause until the investigations are complete.

My deepest feeling go out to all, both family and friends.

[GoldFishBowl]

Condolences to all concerned, it's always shocking to have something like this happen once, but twice on consequitive days at the same location and another (Spitfire) comming down in France also with one fatality it can really shock you. I know Biggin well and have just spoken to my friend who has come back from Biggin said there were alot of shocked people up there after both crashes but especially after the Cobra came down as it was so visible to the crowds.

In case anyone familiar to Biggin is woundering the Cobra (as can be seen in the news footage) came down on the grass apron immediatly south of the tower (but not quite in the MOD bit) and the Vampire appears to have crashed under the electricity pillons that you can see on the approch to 21 just before you cross the airfield boundry.

I hope that the up comming election means the press forget about this soon as they could really have a good go at this if it was silly season; they have already started I note with the "should these WWII rust buckets be allowed in the air" (to quote yes you guessed it Channel 5) type stories. And as many of you have said quoting entirely useless sources just to get something on air.

My thoughts and I am sure thoses of all private pilots based at Biggin go out to everyone concerned.

O
o&lt;&gt;&lt; GoldFish

[This message has been edited by GoldFishBowl (edited 04 June 2001).]

[EGGW]

Yes also heard about a Spitfire crash in Rouen yesterday, 1 fatality as well, what a god awful weekend http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

Not a spotter, but anyone know which one that was???

[aerostar2]

It was Martin Sargeant's.

Either a Mark V or a Mark IX. I sat in it recently - can't remember which it was and don't care. It doesn't matter.

Our bunch of display pilots at North Weald knew Martin and some of our fraternity were very close friends with him. Words like sympathy and condolences just come nowhere near.

I wonder when all this is going to stop.

God bless them

Garry

[HandyAndy]

A report in the South Wales Evening Post
reveals some information regarding the crew
of the Vampire.

Thoughts with all those touched by this tragedy:

City mourns crash flyer

Airport worker killed as Vampire jet falls from sky

By Jo Doek

A SWANSEA airport worker was killed in one of the two horrific fatal crashes during the Biggin air show at the weekend.

Jim Kerr, aged 32, had only left his job at the airport the previous day to pursue his dream of restoring vintage air craft full time. He and the pilot were killed instantly on Saturday afternoon when a De Havilland Vampire jet crashed at the Kent show. Mr Kerr, a father-of-one with a partner who lived at Craigcefnparc in the Swansea Valley, loved De Havilland Vampire jets and had bought and restored his own. On Saturday he took up a last minute unexpected offer of being a passenger in a display flight in the same type of aircraft at the show. But after successfully flying over the crowd four times, the 1950s former Swiss air force trainer jet suddenly spiralled out of control.

It corkscrewed twice before plummeting into a ridge and bursting into flames. Show spokesman Nick Smith said: "The only way I can describe it is that it fell out of the sky. Air accident investigators will look at and determine the cause of the accident.

"Mr Kerr had been an air traffic controller for some years at Swansea Airport. He left on Friday to pursue his dream of restoring vintage aircraft full time in California.

Swansea airport commercial manager Sarah Hopkins said: "Jim was liked by everyone at the airport and by anyone and everyone who met him."His passion was flying. Working on vintage planes was his life."He had enormous respect throughout the industry for his work and was widely sought after. "He died doing something that was for him an all consuming passion and I know everyone will miss him."

The aircraft involved in the crash was not Mr Kerr's own treasured Vampire jet which he bought in 1991 and restored.

Flintshire born Mr Kerr fell in love with Vampire jets at the age of eight when someone gave him a photograph of the military jet.

In 1984 this passion led him to join the air cadets and later train as an avionics technician at RAF Sealand. By the age of 22 he was a Vampire expert and bought a former military Vampire at a Ministry of Defence surplus equipment sale

[Bus429]

Having been involved in the vintage circuit from the early to late-eighties, I can vouch for the professionalism of those teams involved with the high performance aircraft.
It is sad to recollect that, with regard to the 'Cobra, 10 years ago the same team suffered the loss of another great pilot and person in an identical aircraft but different circumstances. The teams of which these pilots were part keenly feel the loss of one of their number.
Condolences to the relatives of all killed over the weekend in various accidents (there were several) and best wishes in recovery to those injured.

[Foxxy]

Zlin, re your last on P5:

1. I clearly stated that i was not there on Sunday, so can offer no comment.

2. At no point have i said in any post that anyone flew over the crowd, because they did'nt.

3. As a "DA" you should be well aware, that indeed we do not need to change display heights or distances from crowd, but we do need to look at other aspects of display flying including currency on type, formation flying with different types, along with a host of other points for both pilots and organisers.

Dont jump the gun!

[Evanelpus]

I recall watching a programme on Discovery Wings called Plane Crazy and it featured a gentleman who purchased his own Vampire and spent quite some time restoring it.

He spoke so passionately about his love for that particular aircraft and you could see the joy on his face sitting in the RH seat as it performed a series of manouvers. He said in the programme he wasn't qualified to fly his aircraft but loved flying in it.

Was that gentleman Jim Kerr?

[mitten]

Garry,

I expect that I know you... I am scared to ask but does your mail say that Martin Sargeants Spit. crashed.... or that Martin was in it?

Drop me an email direct if it suits better

[email protected]

[Raw Data]

Well, I'm sorry but I think it's about time the carnage stopped.

Every year, it seems, we lose irreplaceable people and aircraft- for what? A 5 minute thrill?

I would rather they all stayed on the ground, than we continue to lose them at such a rate. I'm sure the bereaved wives and children would agree, once they get past the "died doing what he loved" stuff.

Display flying needs to be made safer, and pilots need to be more current on these old aircraft- I firmly believe that very, very few display pilots spend enough time behind the controls to claim to be completely au fait with their machines- particularly at the beginning of the season.

One thing is for sure- if the losses continue at current rates, by the time my kids are old enough to really appreciate these old aircraft, there won't be any left flying... to say nothing of the tragic loss of life.

[Suggs]

Poor Bastard had three young kids, there's 400 pilots at Euro-Gatwick surely someone who new him better than I, would want to start a small collection for the Family. I don't do charity but you've got to look after your own. No amount could heal, just a token gesture.

------------------
Graham McPherson

[Foxxy]

Raw Data,

I must say that i have to agree on your valid point regarding currency as well as types flown / conditions / expected formations, and procedures for displying aircraft with different weight classifications in the air simultaneously.

Currency on type, and ensuring the display is practiced, again and again and again in all formats at various airfields on NON display days, could go some way to ensuring incidents are rare, but the trouble is everyone is too busy driving other aircraft for their normal job, to keep current enough, except for a few drivers who fly nothing else apart from warbirds at Duxford etc.

This is my personal view.!

[JPJ]

I am with you entirely, RD. The problems include currency (aggravated by hours limitations on some airframes) and, possibly, the percieved need to push the envelope just that bit further. Airshows are a business, after all.
It is statistically inevitable that sooner or later there will be casualties on the ground, either on or off the airfield. Then the politicians will step in with big flat feet, and that will be the end of air shows.
We need a thorough rethink now.

[GoldFishBowl]

How about useing replica aircraft to display and keeping the actual historic on the ground or only flying straight passes in them instead of areobatics. That way everyone gets to see the aircraft and what it was capable of but the display could be done on a modern airframe that could be flown much more often (and cheaply) so the person doing the display could be completely happy with it's handeling. Also (just a thought) ejector seats in warbirds: possible? Sensible? Discuss

[Evo7]

I love watching them fly, but I wonder if is time to cut back on the aerobatics? A couple of years ago I spent many happy afternoons watching EFA, the Rafale, Su-30 and the like practice their routines for the Farnborough airshow (working for DERA had some advantages :) ), but my favourite avaiation memory is sitting on the grass close to the side of the main runway while Concorde came in and landed anded almost next to me. Magic. Just seeing them and hearing them - especially the Merlin - is fine by me.

My worry is that, one day, some politician is going to try and put a stop to it and then we wont get to do either.

[flugpants]

Is this really an ageing airframe thing? I dont think so. Perhaps more a case of stretching these aircraft to their very limits - and getting away with it most of the time. I think that most people would agree that these older birds get a lot more attention (maintenance wise) than a lot of the more modern equipment - a lot of TLC. We dont know what happened to any of the three warbirds that crashed this weekend....jet wash/broken control runs/whatever it is for the AAIB to sort out. Perhaps a better time to review any changes or attitudes towards where these aircraft fit in to displays would be after these reports have been finalised.

Glazed eyes dont always see that clearly.

God-bless these pilots and their loved ones, my thoughts are with you all.

Be safe

[ANOpax]

Mitten,

From today's Evening Standard

Fourth pilot dies in crash

by Tim Finan in France
The British pilot of a Second World War Spitfire died instantly after his plane crashed at an air display in northern France. He is the fourth Briton to die in three days while flying in a vintage warplane.

Tens of thousands of spectators at Vallée de Seine airport, near Rouen, saw the Spitfire piloted by Martin Sargeant, from Goud-hurst, Kent, plummet to the ground in a field.

Eye-witnesses saw black smoke coming from its engines seconds before it crashed late yesterday afternoon.

At the Biggin Hill air-show in Kent on Saturday, retired Air Marshal Sir Kenneth Hayr, 66, from Warwickshire, a former Deputy Chief of Defence Staff and his co-pilot Jonathon Kerr, an electronics engineer from Bournemouth, died when their 1950s De Havilland Vampire jet fighter crashed.

On Sunday at the same airshow a British Airways captain and former Red Arrows pilot died when his Second World War plane nosedived during a display above Biggin Hill.

Guy Bancroft-Wilson, 43, died instantly when his US Bell King Cobra spiralled out of control at the Kent airfield and exploded in a fireball in front of the 5,000-seat main stand.

Commenting on yesterday's accident a spokesman at Rouen airport said French spectators were "deeply saddened" by the Spitfire crash as it was "an heroic survivor of the war".

French sources put the cause of the tragedy down to mechanical failure and air accident investigators have launched an inquiry.

The plane was one of 12 Spitfires, eleven British and one French-owned, which were taking part in a flypast as part of the airshow.

[Thomas Doubting]

It has been said before that flying 50 and 60 year old aircraft, containing a fair proportion of 50 and 60 year old parts, all of which were designed and produced under the pressures and urgency of war would still have inherent risk even if the human flying it was 100% infallible. Warbirds and the like have come to grief for many reasons including lurking limits of WW2 metallurgy. The realities of displaying Warbirds dynamically will always carry a higher degree of risk than most other forms of flight.

It has been a tragic three days. Good and very capable men have lost their lives, despite all the attention that has been given in recent years to improving safety at airshows. The emphasis seems to be rightly placed on protecting the public. This presumes, also rightly in my opinion, that those who own and fly the aircraft understand and are prepared to accept the risk.

It comes back to the question asked earlier, “is it worth the risk?” I believe the people who own and fly the aircraft get even more pleasure out of doing so than us humble mortals who have only the pleasure of watching and listening to them. I am not a display pilot, but I would hate to have that freedom regulated away from me.

[ickle black box]

RAW DATA, What is to be gained by leaving them on the ground, as museum monuments never to fly again?? In most sports there will be accidents and loss of life. Would you leave a racing yacht in the harbour, so that is doesn't sink in a storm drowning it's crew ?? The loss of life is tragic, but is a part of the risk taken in the sport, and it is normally a rare occourence. The loss of the airframe is not the end of the world, there are more being restored every year. If you restored a vintage aircraft to static display condition, you could probably restore 4 in the time it takes to get one back into the air. It will be a long time before there is a serious shortage of most of these aircraft(suitable for static display), with the odd exception of wooden aircraft, like the mosquito. Also, why do people resore them in the first place ?? They do it to fly them, not to leave in the hanger.

RIP guys


[This message has been edited by ickle black box (edited 05 June 2001).]

[mitten]

All,

I am not sure that now is the time to comment, but as I see much of the content contained herein, I will do so.

Some people live to work, some to play sport and some are rightly happy with their lot on the ground.

These guys lived to fly. They loved what they did and had gained the skill and experience to do so in wonderful aircraft that give so much pleasure.

Martin Sargeant will have watched Paul Morgans tragedy a few weeks ago, he will have watched or heard about Ken and Jim on Saturday and yet he still flew himself.

Who are we to dicate or suggest what others might do. I humbly submit that they did what they did best and loved doing most. The loss is great and my tears add another drop to those shed by family and friends.

I wish them well wherever they are.

[beamer]

After a quite dreadful weekend for the UK
aviation display scene and having taken some
time to absorb the content of this thread may
I offer a few thoughts.

Whilst I did not know any of the pilots who
were killed over the weekend, after 25 years
flying I have known a great number of people,some well - some not, who have lost their lives in aeroplanes. Some of these were
lost in military aircraft in the course of
operations or training; this is an unfortunate but inevitable facet of service
flying. Other friends and colleagues have
been lost in civil accidents - some in the
course of their day to day duties and some in
the world of display flying.

The last airshow I went to was at Fairford
when I saw the crash of the two Mig's. On
that day I was accompanied by my children who
were greatly shocked by the events which took
place in front of them. My view at the time was that despite the rules and regulations
applicable to display flying, those aircraft
could have finished up in the crowd - net
result - disaster. I am sure that many far
more qualified observers will say that could
never happen - I hope that is the case but
my airshow days are over.

It would be easy to go down the road of calling for the end of display flying - is
it worth the risk to life and limb of anyone ? Here, the natural response from many would be to say that dispaly flying is a vital part of the aviation world, a view I
for one would not argue with for a moment.
Perhaps a more relevant question would be to
ask whether too many old aircraft are being
flown a little too close to the edge in the
quest for spectacle. This should not be seen
as in any way viewed to the weekends specific events - I know little or nothing of the circumstances. Is their not a compromise however where historic aircraft
are flown in the manner of the Battle of
Britain Flight as opposed to the mock
dog-fights and aerobatics which seem to be
much in vogue.

I do not wish to see all historic aircraft
rotting in museums. Aircraft were designed
to fly in the same manner that racing cars
were built to race. Yet I do not expect to
see a 1930's Auto Union racing at the same
pace as it did seventy years ago; much better to see it driven at a spirited but not
aggressive pace which will give the thrill
but not the risk of damage or worse.

I offer no solutions, no answers to the
questions posed by the weekends events.
Perhaps those more qualified are prepared
to do so now ?

Bill, Clachy, Mark, Southpiece, and all the
rest not forgotten either.

[Gspot]

High Flight

Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds- and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hovering there,
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up,up,the long delirious, burning blue
I've topped the wind - swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew -
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The highest untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.

Pilot Officer John Gillespie Jr. RCAF
Sept 1941

[tiger burn]

Evo7, I agree with your last comment & thats something that frightens me......dictatorship!

I am sure some of you must remember the disaster at Ramstein (?) in the mid eighties. What was the outcome & the implications for air displays after that?

A little something:

When you've flown enough years to have
crossed many hills and valleys, and known much loneliness and endured many uncertainties -
why then you're a pilot,and on the walls of your memory are hung such frescoes as no other breed of man has ever seen.
And because of them you can never grow too old and you can never be too much afraid of what lies ahead.

extract from "The Airman's World"
by Gill Robb-Wilson



[This message has been edited by tiger burn (edited 05 June 2001).]

[Crosswind Limits]

To a greater or lesser extent I have to agree with Raw Data's sentiments. Lives are always more valuable than vintage machines, no matter how classic or venerated those aircraft may be. It is particularly distressing to hear that Captain Bancroft- Wilson had a wife and three young children.

My condolences to family and friends who have lost a loved one in the last few days.

Xwind

[Davaar]

I think Raw Data puts it very well. Someone suggests that display pilots put in some Chipmunk or Tiger time in preparation for the “warbirds”; but a Gypsy Major is not a Merlin or a Griffon, and the torque produced by 140 h p is not the torque produced by 2000 +/- h p, and there is more to big piston aircraft than a tailwheel. It is not difficult to turn the aircraft around the propeller; though if you do it at low speed and low level, once only.

Warbirds were designed and built for war, not for Air Shows. A fighter did not do most of its work at or below 50' AGL, and if it did any at all it was not doing low-speed low-level vertical manoeuvres. I watched one outstanding pilot practise his “signature” manoeuvre for a major air display. He was the only one I ever saw do it in the aircraft he was flying, and it was sheer artistry. If I describe it some may identify it and him, so I forebear. He did his thing at very low level, and it would never have been part of any military requirement. It was stomach-churning, and it would still have been artistry if he had been 500' higher. Someone said: “That chap is going to kill himself”. He did. You cannot fly through the runway.

I am far from indifferent to the loss of these brave men. Quite the reverse. I have known too many who ended up in that billow of black smoke. Some think the fatalities are rare, but they are altogether too common. There have been many over the years.

I am happy to see the aircraft flying, but not pushing the envelope at altitudes that allow no margin whatever for human error or equipment failure. I do not want to think: “Well he just got away with it once again, but next time ......” That is why I no longer go to Air Shows. I do not want to say afterwards how sorry I am that X went in. I just want him not to go in.



[This message has been edited by Davaar (edited 05 June 2001).]

[Raw Data]

Ickle black box:

Wakey wakey. Display flying is NOT a sport. It is in no way competitive.

I don't want to see them grounded, but I'd rather that than see the crashes on TV.

There might be more aircraft being restored now, but do the math. No warbirds from the WWII era are being produced now, are they? Therefore the supply is finite. Every time one crashes, it is lost forever, and there is NO replacement (like the pilot). More and more effort must be expended to find warbirds that might possible be restorable, which is why people dig very deep holes in glaciers etc to find them. The supply of suitable airframes will dry up- in fact I would be surprised if ANY usable airframes have been newly located in recent years.

You can fly a warbird, but you can do it safely. The sad fact is that most (but not all) warbird accidents come down to pilot error. Display flying to the limits reduces the error tolerance to basically zero. Given that most of the display pilots that fly these aircraft don't do many hours in them, the risks rise. Most warbirds, being single-purpose machines, are significantly more tricky to fly than the pilots' normal (work) aircraft. Go figure.

Also bear in mind that even seasoned, experienced display pilots succumb to accidents far too often.

Another problem is that a lot of warbirds are in the hands of people who have the money to acquire them, but neither the experience or skill to operate them to the highest levels of safety. This has most recently been evidenced by the number of JPs that have crashed, shortly after the type became acquirable. And then there was the pilot that taxied her warbird into a stationary helicopter a year or so ago...!!!

I'm afraid this topic needs a dispassionate and calculated assessment of the risks. Yes, it is great to see these aircraft fly. The problem is that the risks are high, and too often judgement is clouded by the romance of it all. For those, like ickle black box, that think the risks are acceptable as things stand, I hope you never have to explain to a widow and three small children just why their daddy won't be coming home. Somehow I doubt they'll see it your way.

Sorry, it isn't worth it. Death by display flying is probably the most senseless way to die that there is.

[ShyTorque]

RIP GB-W,

Sorry I never got to fly with you in the Reds display practice; it was one of my greatest disappointments that I was called away during the briefing.


My heartfelt condolences to your wife and children.

[Flying Lawyer]

On a glorious Friday evening about 10 years ago, twelve of us took off from Duxford to take part in air displays in Europe. The sight and sound of twelve warbirds leaving together was, as always, inspiring. There had been the usual banter between us (the Old Flying Machine Company) and Stephen Gray's Fighter Collection; a wonderful, happy atmosphere. I can't now remember where we, or they, were going.
The atmosphere on Sunday evening couldn't have been more different. Twelve of us had taken off; sadly, only eleven returned. One of the Fighter Collection pilots, flying a Cobra, had crashed on the way home.
The following weekend saw us taking off to fly at some other air display. That was our free choice.
Some contributors seem to think that our freedom of choice should be removed.
Over the years, two more of the original twelve pilots lost their lives in flying accidents. One, Mark Hanna, was a close friend with whom I'd spent many happy times flying.
Of course we are all affected by the loss of a friend. But display pilots carry on because they want to. Is it really to be argued that the state should protect us from ourselves? Should all dangerous, and potentially fatal, pursuits be banned by the 'nanny state'?

The 'danger to the crowd' aspect is a complete red herring. Aircraft occasionally crash during displays, but where is the history of aircraft crashing into the crowd?
Should motorsport be banned just because drivers are occasionally killed, or a car might become airborne and crash into the crowd, or a spectator might be hit by a flying wheel. I was waiting to go out for a warm-up lap before a race when the news of Ayrton Senna's death spread around the paddock. Of course we were all shocked. Of course we all thought 'If it can happen to someone with Senna's talent, .........etc', but we still went out to race.
Should that freedom of choice be taken away?

Of course some warbirds are damaged beyond repair, but let's not lose sight of the fact that the vast majority are not owned by the nation, but have been restored by private owners. Some contributors seem to think they should be forced into museums as static displays. Aircraft are built to fly, not to gather dust in a museum. A Spitfire is a beautiful aeroplane, even on the ground. But the sight of a Spitfire in a hangar is nothing compared with the sight (and sound) of its beauty and qualities being fully displayed by a skilled pilot.

I accept that air displays must continue to be kept as safe as possible, but some of the contributions on this thread seem, to me, to be taking the 'nanny state' to unacceptable extremes.
Of course grieving families will wish that their loved ones had spent their weekends playing golf or fishing instead of display flying, but I very much doubt whether they would support introducing rules to prevent people from taking part in air displays.

No-one has to fly in displays.
No-one has to go to air shows.
Surely those who wish to do so should be allowed that freedom of choice?

[Edit]
Raw Data
Re the end of your last post: I've never had to break the news to a bereaved family, but I have spoken to several afterwards. Their reactions, without exception, have been the complete opposite of what you appear to expect.

[This message has been edited by Flying Lawyer (edited 05 June 2001).]

[Raw Data]

Flying Lawyer:

Just in case the wrong impression has been left, I am not interested in banning, or further regulating, display flying. If you read my post a little more carefully, you should be able to see that. SELF-regulation is the key. I (for one) never suggested further government regulation.

I love seeing Spitfires and the like flying as well. I still attend airshows- the static aircraft are a poor second to the ones that fly. However, it is not necessary to "push the envelope", which is what kills pilots- attempting manouevers beyond the ability of either pilot or aircraft features prominently in many display accidents. The one that always sticks in my mind is the Spitfire pilot who misjudged a loop and became one with the runway at Fairford a few years back.

Simple flypasts and basic manouevers would achieve the goal of keeping warbirds flying and visible.

On the other hand, any warbird that has a bang seat should present no such limitations (apart from where the aircraft ends up after the pilot has departed).

Moving on to the end of your post...

I would expect the recently-bereaved family of a dead display pilot to be sad and hurt beyond belief. The opposite of that would be, lets see, happy and complete beyond belief. Given that simple juxtaposition, I find your last statement somewhat difficult to believe.

[Plane Mad]

Perhaps doing low level aerobatics in a classic warbird when one has a wife and 3 young children is taking too much of a risk. An acceptable amount of risk when flying can always be justified to loved ones, but there comes a point.........

Sincere condolences to those affected.

[Alty Meter]

Flying Lawyer
Well said! A superb contribution to the debate, and based upon first-hand experience. I agree with you 100%.

Raw Data
You know that wasn't what Flying Lawyer meant about your comments about the likely reaction of bereaved families.
What you said was: "For those, like ickle black box, that think the risks are acceptable as things stand, I hope you never have to explain to a widow and three small children just why their daddy won't be coming home. Somehow I doubt they'll see it your way."
You know that Flying Lawyer wasn't suggesting that bereaved families are happy about their loss, just that even in the pain of their own loss they accept that their loved one died doing something he enjoyed, fully aware of the risks involved. He was speaking from personal experience, saying that your doubts that they would see it that way were wrong. Are your 'doubts' based upon personal experience?

Plane Mad
That's a personal decision for each husband and wife to decide for themselves.
Perhaps you didn't think that criticising G B-W was insensitive and offensive.
Perhaps you should think again. :mad:

[Plane Mad]

Alty Meter,

My intention was never to criticise Captain Bancroft-Wilson who was obviously a very experienced and able pilot. I simply made what I think was a valid point from a certain perspective. If others feel that my earlier post was "insensitive" then perhaps I will delete it.

PM

[This message has been edited by Plane Mad (edited 06 June 2001).]

[PaperTiger]

Plane Mad

Your post did not strike me as being out of line. Emotions are naturally still running very high, and any perceived criticism of the pilots will not be well received.

I can only imagine the thrill and exhuberation of displaying a magnificent airplane, but I do wonder if the temptation to push the envelope sometimes results in a loss of appropriate caution.

[Vfrpilotpb]

I feel it is sad in any event for any Pilot or crew to die, even whist showing their flying skills to the gallery,and my heartfelt sorrow goes to all the families and friends of the crews involved.

But please correct me if I am off target , most aerobatics were past thought out manuovers for these warplanes and their crew to effectivly get into the best posistion to fight the enemy aircraft and pilots, or if lead was comming your way it was to get you away from the hot area, most of these types of movements were often flown at far greater heights than the most GA pilots will ever fly at today, therefor keeping the Nanny state and the PC people at bay, would it not be far better if the organisers of these Air Show's set a minimum safe altitude which should be made and adhered to strictly,such rules if broken would then ban the infringing pilot from all other displays, it seems logical but I only fly RW so I cannot make many technical suggestions, but I feel that if a min alt of never intrude below 500 ft was enforced, it would still show and allow us to hear those incredible old aircraft, then in theory ( with all that theorys cover) we would be safe from the sensationalised journalistic crap and ravings that we have all seen in the press and on the TV since these sad occurance's.

[Evanelpus]

Raw Data

I have to disagree with your comment that display flying is not competative.

How many airshows have we all been to where there is a trophy awarded for the best flying display. Now I know many pilots and I can assure you that they go 'balls out' to win that trophy. Their professional pride drives them to want to win, more so if they are military types.

[Raw Data]

Alty Meter:

As Flying Lawyer is a lawyer, I assume he chooses his words carefully. So do I. The implication of his statement was exactly as I alluded to in my response.

I have indeed been unfortunate enough to have to counsel widows of deceased pilots (and their children). One thing I can tell you is that the romantic notion that families are somehow comforted by the idea that their loved one died "doing what he loved" is utter nonsense. That is a nice thought that we use to attempt to justify a pointless death- but that is all it is. That family now has to face life without a husband and father, and the pain of that situation never goes away.

My personal belief (and I am not relating this to any particular person), is that if you have a wife and kids, you have an obligation to minimise the risks to yourself. I don't mean live your life in a cocoon, but simply not take UNNECESSARY risks. In my case, I gave up competitive motorcycle racing when the family came along, because I love my family more than I love racing. Obviously this is an individual choice.

I am somewhat surprised that Flying Lawyer can accept the deaths of so many friends with equinimity, but once again that is a personal thing.

I have done a little display flying in the past, not in anything as fast as a WWII fighter, but I do have first-hand knowledge of the subject.

Evanelpus:

The primary objective of a flying display is to DISPLAY AIRCRAFT. With so many different types on display, it is highly subjective as to who gave the best display. The awards you mention are more of an incidental bonus to spice things up for the pilots.

If competition for them is as fierce as you say (and it certainly wasn't at displays I have been involved in), then that tells you more about the motives and egos of the pilots involved than anything else. "Professional pride"? Dream on!

[Bus429]

Flying Lawyer,
I remember you now (you had a share in a Harvard?).
You mentioned an incident I alluded to a few pages back. The pilot who died in the crash 10 years ago was an absolute professional and a charming person. So ironic that history has almost repeated itself.

Bus

[Crosswind Limits]

In my humble opinion, Raw Data and Plane Mad are most definitely making valid points. I think it is foolish to discount them.

[Hung start]

To the families of those tragically lost over the weekend, my deepest condolancies.
RIP.

Flying Lawyer, sorry to go off the tangent a bit here. But I was shocked to read in your post, that Mark Hanna has been killed as well. Spoke to him years back at an airshow in Denmark. What a great guy/pilot. May I ask when and what happened. And how is Ray?

[Nick Mahon]

Hung Start,

I heard that M.Hanna crashed in Spain, his ME109 (I think) pplummeted due to the wake of a jet that took off minutes earlier. I Also heard that R.Hanna has moved to New Zealand.

If anyone knows otherwise please say so!!

[Man-on-the-fence]

Nick

So!!

The report into Marks accident still hasn't been published. But from the pictures I saw he was on fire before he hit the ground. As for the exact reason, well we'll just have to wait for the report

Incidentally this does seem to be taking an inordinate amount of time.

Ray was at Duxford for the spring airshow, so perhaps he's migratory.




[This message has been edited by Man-on-the-fence (edited 06 June 2001).]

[gurnzee]

embarassed to admit i had forgotten the show was on, but heard about the first crash while on a trip, and then the second on my return.
i'm sure lots of us have friends who have been lucky to 'walk away from it', my sympathies are with those of you who have any association with the guys who weren't so lucky
G

[JackOzziJ]

I have long been an avid admirer of everyone who takes part in display flying - I had the very great pleasure of knowing Sir Kenneth Hayr and GBW but I have known many more! From someone who dreamt to have been able to be a display pilot I thank them for the many years of enjoyment that they have provided not only to me but to the many thousands of people who attend the airshows!

For those of you who still fly to please the crowds, defend the realm and fly us around the world - THANK YOU!

RIP Guy and Sir Ken - you will be sadly missed!

[markbingo]

Hung Start,

See this link for info on Mark Hanna.
http://www.ofmc.co.uk/mah/mah.htm

There was indeed a fire during final.

My sympathies to all the families,friends and collegues of all the lost pilots mentioned in this thread.

[Yosser]

Flying Lawyer,

Concur entirely, nice to see some perspective.

[Salamander]

On behalf of Ray Hanna and the Old Flying Machine Co.:

OFMC is still waiting for the report on Mark's accident.

OFMC has been in constant contact with the Spanish authorities and expects their report later this year. In the interim, it may be assumed that Mark and the 109 Buchon were the victims of wake turbulence at less than 100 feet on the final approach to land.

[Man-on-the-fence]

Salamander

Thank you for that. I await with interest.