Single seat girls? [Archive]

monti

11th Jul 2003, 04:04

A friend of mine (a rag packer) who worked on tornado and Harrier units insists that female aircrew/pilots are just as capable as their male counterparts in all areas of front line training/war fighting.Whilst not wishing to seem too sexist is this true? Can female pilots hold thier own (not in the biblical sense), G tolerance,map reading,bombing and air to air?:eek:I don't think so:O

Radar Muppet

11th Jul 2003, 04:22

Tuck off, fwat. Go do your pathetic fishing somewhere else.

Mr C Hinecap

11th Jul 2003, 04:30

LOATHE though I am to grace this plonker with a 2nd response, he has pressed a button.

Is this Admin Guru come back to haunt us? This level of dull, thoughtless cr@p has a smell all of its own.

Now. Monti. Poke off and don't come back.

T0$$er :ugh:

monti

11th Jul 2003, 04:50

Muppet, there's no need for obscenities,I have been a driving instructor for ten years and in general women just aren't as good as men at a psycho motive level, and I was questioning my friends judgement as to thier abilities flying at the edge of a modern fighters envelope,as he isn't a pilot how would he know? People in this forum do the job for a living, therefore i took a wild stab in the dark that you would know more about it.This is not thoughtless crap or a trawl to see who bites, I am genuinely intrested to learn more.Now if anyone has anything more constructive to say then please, the floor is yours....:confused:

soddim

11th Jul 2003, 06:00

Monti - why not air your opinions on a driving instructors forum where I am sure you will receive the replies you deserve.

Jackonicko

11th Jul 2003, 06:42

I know there are plenty of two seat fast jet ladies who have done well. But are there currently any single seat FJ ladies? CURRENTLY.

I dimly remember that there was a lady Jag pilot but seem to remember that she took a ground tour when her husband was posted overseas. I may have imagined that, mind!

Don't get me wrong, whether or not there are lady single seat FJ pilots in the RAF, those in other air forces have proved that it's not a male preserve.

Do you have to be a pompous tw@t to be a driving instructor, though? ;)

Archimedes

11th Jul 2003, 06:48

Monti, you've unwittingly pressed all the wrong buttons here. Also, sadly for you, this is exactly the sort of question that the less responsible members of the fourth estate ask here in an attempt to produce an 'all RAF pilots are mysoginists shocka!!!' story (or variations thereof) - this provokes a (justifably, IMHO) hostile response, as you've discovered.

The question you ask has been done to death on this forum - which, of course, you weren't to know. From the previous iterations of this question I think it would be fair to say that the general consensus of opinion supported your friend's contentions.

AllTrimDoubt

11th Jul 2003, 06:54

Monti -

This has been done to death in the past. Grimsby trawlermen have been known to be more subtle...

Why not consider this: If the USS Enterprise is capable of travelling faster than the speed of light, then why does she have anti-cols fitted?

Out, Blind!

DESPERADO

11th Jul 2003, 09:04

I haven't posted for a while because it is frustrating to me how this forum has been tyaken over by a few people who have nothing but aggressive cr@p to say.
Radar Muppet, you are indeed a muppet and an unpleasant one at that. Mr C Hinecap, you are just offensive.
Monti may or may not be a journalist fishing, so what. If he is do you really think that the best way to deal with him is to abuse and belittle him? Do you think that you are doing the service or yourselves a favour by dealing with a fisherman in that way? How about giving the guy a break and just answering his question? If you don't want to be bothered with lowering yourself to such a level then perhaps you should not answer at all, or perhaps you have had a bad day and you fealt it necessary to abuse some poor unsuspecting member of the public over an anonymous forum because you are fed up with how small your willy is?

Monti, in answer to your question, simply put, there are good bad and indifferent, the same as men. I have flown with a number of fast jet women and they are a mattch for their male colleagues. I believe that there is at least one female Harrier pilot at the moment as well.

Mach the Knife

11th Jul 2003, 10:18

The good ones are good, the crap ones are crap, and the average ones are average.............a bit like the blokes flying fast jets really. Although not too many of the blokes I know have had their post gapped and their workload carried by their Sqn mates for a year while thay have babies.

thermoluminescent

11th Jul 2003, 10:30

All,

The anti-cols are only for 'flight' on impulse power - basics, ....basics!

TL

BEagle

11th Jul 2003, 14:56

monti - your experience as a driving instructor will have been with those who have paid for your services, but who won't have been aptitude tested. Whereas by the time our ladies reach their squadron, they will be equally capable as those of the male gender.

When I was a UAS QFI, none of our students had been aptitude tested. There were those of both sexes who would never be fit to command even a bicycle, let alone an aeroplane. But the only discernable characteristic amongst the girls which differed from the boys was that if you said to a bloke "That was an average trip", he'd think 'Great, good enough. Can go to the pub tonight'. Whereas if you said the same thing to a girl, she'd think "I need to do better than that - better do some more work". They'd also be better at helping eachother (probably stems from that weird thing they have for visiting the loo in pairs) than the boys, plus they were generally more mature.

So whether its a cockpit or a box office, it's no big deal.

witchdoctor

11th Jul 2003, 14:56

The young lady sitting on my lap when I fly performs most admirably and seems to tolerate anything. I suppose the answer must be yes.:}

Mr C Hinecap

11th Jul 2003, 15:19

DESPERADO. AND Monti.

Yes. Perhaps a little on the offensive straight away. However, in my defence, m'lud, it was not posed as a reasonable request for information. The last couple of words were a little dismissive - no - they were VERY dismissive. That was a cheap shot which got a cheap shot back. Reasonable questions tend to get reasonable answers - even on here.

As ever, a voice of reason brought up the aptitude testing point. Also, somewhere in my addled brain, I seem to remember something about women coping with 'G' a little better than us chaps? Somebody please confirm or deny.

Echo 5

11th Jul 2003, 15:33

Guys (and Gals),
Whether he intended to or not Monti certainly got a few good bites.
Let's face it, 99% of the male (chauvinist and non chauvinist) population at some time in their lives have something derogatory to say about female car drivers. I would have thought it only natural therefore that Mr Average in civvy street would wonder about the reasoning in letting ladies fly fast jets.
To the deeply affronted I say - Chill out - no real harm done.

AllTrimDoubt

11th Jul 2003, 15:36

No Desperado...

I will pass info and advice where appropriate but this case clearly isn't in my opinion. Much has been written on this forum in the past re this and other similar topics. If indeed a journo he/she is, then a few investigative skills will unearth all. I admire the likes of BEAgs et all who can endlessly respond without ire, but the info is out there anyway, as is the evidence in the form of those ladies doing an admirable job. So there....:yuk:

Roland sizzers

11th Jul 2003, 16:05

Facts,facts,facts - so much more boring than random obsenities and the dogged battle of the sexes. However,

There are plenty of female aircrew going through Valley I believe, they are doing just as well as the guys.

I can think of two or three female QWI and QWI leaders currently in post on a variety of ac types.

Even a girl on the latest Hover Jet QWI course!

So that's it Monti - hide under your desk, there are wimmin everywhere.:{

Training Risky

11th Jul 2003, 17:34

To add another aspect to this debate, I would offer the view that some women ARE up to the challenge of military flying, but not all. Its just a small percentage compared to men.

I think the problem lies more with the recruitment/training hierarchy in the RAF who have recently made much more effort to get a female through to the front-line than a male.

I know of females chopped from rotary BFT/AFT who got immediate multi-engine re-streams..... at the same time as other (male) pilots chopped from AFT, OCFs and sqns were unceremoniously thrown out of the Branch.

That may be a problem with the top brass I hear you say, and not with women as a whole.... maybe so. But it doesn't mean that the same number of women out of a thousand (for example) are as suitable as their male equivalents to become aircrew.

If that were not true, then the ratio of male/female pilots would be 50:50!:eek:

Jackonicko

11th Jul 2003, 18:42

Surely a 50:50 ratio would also require that an equal number of those women with the necessary aptitude actually wanted to do the job, and applied for it. They don't. It would also assume that women were equally encouraged by their schools, unis and society generally to join the military. They're not. It would also assume that they were equally educationally qualified. They're not. (I'm not being sexist, but just pointing out the low proportion of aero eng/eng degree courses made up of female students, and the lower proportion of girls taking the more relevant GCSEs and A-levels).

monti

11th Jul 2003, 18:54

Guys, many thanks for your answers, some have been very informative and controlled.the point/question that I raised may not have been well phrased...I'm not running for a post as a diplomat anytime soon:D And no, I am not a journo,I just wanted to prove my friend wrong.;)

Soulman

11th Jul 2003, 21:30

Well,

Monti, to support your case, I recently had the pleasure of meeting a female F/A-18D Pilot from the USN at the Avalon Airshow 2003. We had a good chat about her life in the USN and throughout the whole chat, she emphasised how there was no restrictions (Physical/Mental) on women becoming fast jet pilots. She was an extremely approachable and informative person, and it was very good talking to her.
She also featured in a 5 minute interview on the Airshow DVD, of which I have a copy. PM me if you would like some more info.

I also know off two women who have recently completed a course as navigators aboard RAAF F-111's. Now that would be awesome! :p

Cheers,

Souls

newswatcher

11th Jul 2003, 21:51

Not exactly a "single seat" girl, but the pilot of the Sea King sent out to yesterday's Snowdonia crash was one Flight Lieutenant Kate Diacin.

Flash2001

11th Jul 2003, 23:44

Reaching deep into the cesspool of memory, I recall a US military study that established that women could withstand higher G forces than men could before blacking out. There was another that noted that smokers could withstand marginally more G as well. Guess which study got the more publicity!

After an excellent landing you can use the airplane again!

Huron Topp

12th Jul 2003, 00:51

Flash, thats cause the ladies have a lower centre of gravity, and smokers' blood is thick as pudding.

BEagle

12th Jul 2003, 01:01

Huron Topp - you may just have stumbled upon that great mystery - why do buxom blondes have a reputation (probably ill-deserved) for not being exactly in the rocket scientist division of intellect? Maybe it's all to do with the centre of gravity; 38D raises the CofG so the brain must be made smaller to compensate if the CofG is to stay within limits......

No, of course I'm not serious. Just Friday afternoon banter! :E

Wycombe

12th Jul 2003, 01:23

The Turkish F16 driver at RIAT a few years ago certainly looked the part ;)

eastern wiseguy

12th Jul 2003, 02:12

Israels' first female fighter pilot (http://www.dispatch.co.za/2001/06/30/foreign/ISFIGHT.HTM)

This follows a recent overturning of a ban in the IDF and as the article says three female navs have graduated and this woman will fly the F16 .

Flatus Veteranus

12th Jul 2003, 03:57

In 1975-77 I drove the OR desk in MOD which handled future pilot/aircraft interface, including FCSs, instrumentation, information input, workload and information overload and all those good things. We were looking ahead to what I suppose is now the Typhoon. My predeecessor had commissioned a study by the Institute of Aviation Medicine, Farnborough, on the suitability of women as combat aircrew in various roles. The result thudded onto my desk.

IAM were unable to detect any significant difference between the genders in any of the parameters deemed to be relevant, once the need for physical strength had been obviated by powered controls. Reaction times, coordination, spatial judgement, resistance to "g", emotional stability and aggression - you name it- the gals were just as good as the chaps. The only slight question marks were over the effects of PMT, which varied with each individual. The cost of lay-off during late pregnancy and nursing were the obvious down-side, but that was not within IAM's remit. Given equal motivation ( and presumably there are still a few lads and lasses who have only one burning ambition - to be a military aviator) there is absolutely no reason why the girls cannot perform as well as the blokes. Perhaps, as has been suggested, the girls try harder. The chaps have this culture that it is unseemly to be seen to be too keen!

Smoketoomuch

12th Jul 2003, 04:17

Perhaps combining the two topics somewhat :)

Mate works for a well known car racing team and they would dearly love a good woman driver. It would generate oodles of publicity so the sponsors would love it, and might open up the world of F1 to a less male dominated audience, pleasing the sponsors even more and generating more cash.

Fact is, though quite a few have tried, no team has found a truly competitive female driver. His theory, and he admits it may be rubbish, is that its all to do with inner ear, and perhaps aggression (testosterone).
Telemetry from practice laps indicated that through corners their speed varied significantly from lap to lap, even though they said in the debrief they estimated their speeds to be consistent, ie perhaps their senses weren't as acute. Any fool can drive fast in a straight line but its cornering that seperates the men from the.... boys? :)
They also found women tended to back off more if the car twitched, costing precious time.

All from a very small sample, so not to be taken as any sort of proof, but the results were consistent. Perhaps there's a research grant in it for someone :)

Anyway, the door to F1 is very firmly open to any suitably qualified women, a few tried actual races in the late 80s I think, but the results were very poor. And he knows of none in the pipeline.

If and how any of the above applies to fast jets I'll leave you to decide.

Training Risky

12th Jul 2003, 06:40

Just to play devils advocate.... how can the UK armed forces justify employing women in any front line job (ie: Pilot/Nav/ALM), when "Women are excluded from the RAF Regiment on the grounds of operational effectiveness"??

Surely as officers/SNCOs we are all expected to be able to pick up a weapon and a bergen and carry out the same job of a gunner when the sh*t hits the fan? Even if said female does happen to be the first Eurofighter pilot.... she should have to have the same upper body strength of a RAF reg gunner, as should we all!

BlueWolf

12th Jul 2003, 07:06

My centre of gravity is quite a bit lower now than when I was young enough to apply....maybe I should try again?;)

Seriously though....I have a mate who is a QFI on FJ and rotary, and though I have greater upper body strength and quicker reaction times, she leaves me in the weeds on aerobic fitness, stamina and co-ordination.

I know who I'd rather have in the cockpit, and it ain't me!:)

orionsbelt

12th Jul 2003, 07:48

Ok Chaps see Air Forces monthley June issue page 72
USAF Lady Single Seat driver 23 wing 75 FS A10 Ace
Capt Kim Campbell tacking a look at a very poorley looking A10 STB motor full of very big holes after taking ground fire over Baghdad on April 8th (I have a picture but cant seen to file it ).

She gets my vote, a very brave mate!

Also believe there is a lady Sqdn Ldr Jag jocky on 54 Sqdn at Colt.

:ok:

Woff1965

12th Jul 2003, 09:28

smoketoomuch is bemoaning the lack of first rate female racing drivers, in the 80's Audi had a female French driver called Michelle Moutoun. She drove one of the first Quatro's in competition and regularly beat a lot of men.

http://www.audioc.force9.co.uk/articles/quattro/4.htm