Qf LONGHAUL

[Alotta]

Heard on good authority today that QF Longhaul will be recruiting in December

[Parry Hotter]

Alotta do you mean that you heard they will be calling people from the current wait lists? Or are they going to hold another round of interviews for externals? Do you know if they will be offering permanent positions? Melb, Perth or Syd base?

[Alotta]

QF Longhaul

All I know is that they will be recruiting in December.....are you on the shortlist waiting for some action, Parry?

[qfmike737]

Whoa! This is the best news I've heard in AGES! I'm litterally dying to get in!

Will they have internal applications??? How does the internal system work?

[vdd]

Can anyone from Qantas shed a bit more light on this?

Will it be a similar recruitment round as per last Dec 2002 or just bringing in the short listers?

I hope it's both! Would love to have the opportunity to try getting in again .:p

[Lozza2002]

:hmm: Me thinks it's Alotta bs

[ozskipper]

Umm, I'm not sure that it's bs.... have heard similar comments from another source actually.

But as always.... who really knows?! :confused:

[Parry Hotter]

Bs??? Parry Hotter is confused. What does Bs mean? Is it some kinda secret longhaul talk?

[SocialFlyer]

PARRY HOTTER

My sources tell me that "BS" stands for BULL ****!!!! am I correct.... :confused:

Social Flyer:ok:

[Alotta]

Actually it's ALOTTA truth!! Comes from THE source, believe it, they are recruiting in December, has to advertise internal first and then outside if that is what they are doing.

Not just hearsay folks!!::O

[GalleyHag]

I have also heard that it will be the end of the year but I highly doubt they will be interviewing internals as the only time they do this is when they have permanent positions available and it has been made VERY VERY clear that there will be no further permanent recruitment at this stage with the company is trying to reduce costs check out the other forum which has the BRW articles on this issue. I heard from a PDM (which you take with a grain of salt I know) that future employment will be via labour hire companies such as MAM and recruitment undertaken through QF.

[peanut pusher]

3 year contracts for new starters.
Alotta the source was talking about the recruitment of cabin crew interviewers. This has been on hold since January 2003. We have 400 people on the waiting list, they will be offered contracts like the 1999 recruitment people. They are known as "fixed termers" but will have a 3 year fixed term. I think this is better than nothing.

[Mr Seatback 2]

Not if you're already a permanent, full time Flight Attendant with a QF subsidiary (Eastern, Sunnies and the Pulse).

If I were ever asked to become a 3 year fixed termer, I'd politely decline the offer. I don't do 3 year long interviews.

I'll get there by progression if I'm not offered full time - might take me a while, but at least I'd be permanent. No guarantee of that as a fixed termer.

And I should know - we have a few former fixed termers working with us.

[cloud nine]

3 year contracts? No thankyou. :{

I will be staying with Qantaslink and waiting for progression. As Mr Seatback wrote, it may take longer but at least we will be there on a permanent basis, and have 4 or 5 years seniority behind us. And we all know how important seniority is in the real world!

It's really quiet dissapointing that we can not be offered something more stable.

It will be interesting to see how many people actually decline the job offer. I know of about 8 that definatley will.

[Alotta]

Peanut Pusher I am within The source too and it was made clear they are recruiting LH Crew. I know how many are on the waiting list and the stage they are at there but I think ANY airline movement is good news. :)

[QF skywalker]

I second the comments of cloud 9 and Mr Seatback 2 !

No way are we going to accept cheap and skanky 3 year contracts from an employer that we are trying to make a career with - NO WAY.

Qantaslink staff are the future CSS's and CSM's of the flying kangaroo and there is no way I and I dare say others are going to accept a contract over permanent employment and then be told we are ineligible to apply to become a CSM because we are only contract workers.

[kaka1973]

Are they going to recruit for SYD base??
I heard you have high possibily to be full time staff after the contract finish if you are Japanese Speaker.

Is this true??

[GalleyHag]

I totally agree I wouldnt be leaving the security of a permanent position with QFlink for a 3 year contract.

However, as all QFLink crew SHOULD be aware progression ONLY occurs when x amount of external applicants are recruited into permanent positions.

Progression does not and has not occured when fixed term crew are recruited, furthermore if fixed term crew are converted to permanent positions after their contracts expire which did occur in short haul for some fixed termers this is NOT regarded under the terms of the progression document as external recruitment therefore no progression.

The only time progression will occur is when QF advertise and place people off the street into permanent positions. For example if 50 of the people on the current waitlist are given permanent positions in short haul progression will occur.

Now we all know this is highly unlikely so, you have to think about your future, taking into consideration the current climate at QF in terms of the way people are employed in the future.

If Qantas recruits year in year out and puts people onto contracts NO progression will occur even if after 3 years they convert them to permanent this does not activate progression as stated above. So you maybe at QFLink much longer than the current 4-5 years.

In particular EAA crew should have been made aware by the FAAA that this was the intention of Qantas before they voted for the second time on their EBA with the threat of progression over their head. The FAAA knew full well that this was QF's intention but did not pass this vital piece of information onto you before voting.

I do have a question though how is putting people on 3 year contracts going to be a major cost saving when they work under our EBA you wouldnt think staff travel and the new band payments would make that much difference to the overall cost per crew member or will they be put on contracts through MAM, I am referring to short haul here?

[GalleyHag]

Fixed Term Crew in short haul work under the terms and conditions of our EBA, therefore I cant see where the cost saving is either of course the overall liability is less than permanent crew but still I dont see any major reduction in cost here and as far as I know MAM casuals work under our EBA therefore even if they were employed by MAM still I dont see the cost saving.

If they were employed through Jet Connect NZ and based in Sydney WELL, there is a real cost saving but I dont even think that is possible but who knows.

[Mr Seatback 2]

Getting back to the topic at hand re: long haul contractors...

Irrespective of whether or not QF Link crew may/may not be waiting around for some time under CP, the 3-year carrot thing just doesn't cut it.

I work with some people that the Pulse have hired that were ex Long Haul contractors. All it takes is for a single pax (or in some cases, a crew member) to take issue with you over the smallest thing for a black mark to be put in your record. And in some cases, you may not even know that you've got a black mark until you're given your marching orders. I've seen it time and time again, and it's terrible.

Having your employment rest on a daily opinion of someone who may be having a bad day is just not on - either you're good enough to do the job or you're not. This 'try before you buy for 3 years, and we may or may not keep you on' nonsense only serves to exploit those who really want to make a solid career out of flying.

True, many industries across the world use contracts, and QF's competitors are no different (SQ being one example). In industries such as IT, these are commonplace. However:

a) Contracts are not suited to those individuals who wish to make flying a career with the one airline (this isn't the UK, and this ain't a charter airline)

b) The aspect that you may be offloaded at the end of 3 years (or less) depending on external circumstances is too flexible to forecast appropriately, and

c) The ongoing job opportunities as FA's in Australia are very slim in a permanent, full time sense (including with the regionals). If, for any reason, you were not kept on at the end of your contract, what does one do then? It's back to square one folks, and the interview queue starts two blocks away!

I don't know about any other people here (although I am sure most will agree with me), but it has taken me far too long to get in as a FA with my airline, and had I not been employed immediately prior to the AN collapse, I might still be trying to get in. The stakes for me, personally, are too high for me to throw away on a whim to get into long haul. I want to go internationally, but not at the expense of my job security and ability to plan properly for the future in greater financial terms.

Further to CP, let's not forget that 3 years on a contract is an awfully long time compared with previous contracts that QF have used. Also, the usage of the term 'permanent', in an employment sense, is very flexible (casuals may be deemed permanent employees if given regular shifts).

Galleyhag - I'm sure there's been a lot that has gone on behind the scenes between QF and the FAAA that neither of us (or for that matter, anyone) is aware of regarding the EAA CP and EBA documents. Let's just stick with the clear facts we're all aware of, rather than trying to apportion 'blame' for contracted labour. Better a CP Agreement than none at all, and more importantly - who says that everyone that will be recruited will ALL be 3-year contractors?

In closing ladies and gents, I suggest we all do the following:

a) Wait until we all hear more information, rather than speculating this, that and the other is going to happen

b) Keep doing what we do best

c) Support one another by providing as much information as we can relating to future employment at QF and

d) Remember, an awful lot can happen between now and December. Let's not pin all our hopes on recruiting happening then. At the same time, however, we all know how fast things change - it may happen sooner?!

It is my understanding that additional recruitment will occur towards the later end of the year to replace current shortlist applicants who will be contacted for employment.

[Qwannas]

Hi Galley Hag,

Conversion from a fixed term contract to a full time permanent position is (and has been) considered external recruitment, when referring to career progression.

(Thank heavens!) :O

However, in saying that, will 3 year contracts EVER be introduced at all? Lets not forget that doing so won't be as simple as Geoff seems to think.....a bit of media propaganda then POW just hit us with it. I dont think it will be that easy, the Flight Attendants will want to play hard ball, too.

If the company is able to introduce these so called contracts, will these contracts EVER be converted? They may just be rolling contracts up for renewal upon completion. How do the new hires feel about that?

[Alotta]

PM for you Cloud 9

[GalleyHag]

Mr Seatback 2

I was sticking to the clear facts and the facts were that the FAAA was fully aware of QF's plans in terms of future employment but this information was at no time passed onto EAA crew before voting. EAA used the threat of career progression numbers to get it over the line my point was that EAA crew should have had this information before the vote not 2 days after the EBA was voted up which was the case.

Qwannas

Conversion of fixed term to permanent within QF does not and has not activated career progression just ask anyone at EAA at the top who if that was the case as you say would have been at QF long ago. The document is very clear permanent external recruitment the conversion of fixed term to permanent does not activate progression.


I think we should now get back to the topic of Long Haul.

[Qwannas]

Galley Hag,

Yes, I have read the Career Progression Document.

Conversion from a contract position to a full time permanent position is definately considered as external employment. It does impact on Progression and has so in the past. Just ask anyone at your local FAAA Office.

A situation was explained to me like this...

For example, when Ansett collapsed, QF did a mass recruitment of Short Haul FA's - all contract. Unfortunately, during that same six months they did not hire any Full Time Permanent's - thus no Career Progression from the Regionals (as per the agreement). When these contracts lapsed, they all lapsed at the same time and were all converted into Full Time Permanent positions - Recruitment HAD occured (at an enormous rate) but all at once and all in the same six months. So therefore, only one ground school (as per the agreement) progressed to Short Haul. It seemed a shame and very frustrating to the Regional Flight Attendants (and quite difficult to follow, due to the delays of the ground schools) - but it was all done by the book! I could go into other exampes of contracts to full time being considered external recruitment, but it is getting off the track of this topic!!

It is just one of the reasons why the FA's at the top of the list for BOTH Eastern and Sunstate are still there.

And yes, agreed - back to the top of the page!

[cloud nine]

Just dragging this topic of the track for a brief moment..:\ Does anyone know how I can get a copy of the CP documentation? Do I contact the FAAA. Or should it be around our crew room some where?

I'd like to read it, so I know what is and what is not correct. It's a topic that so many seem to have so many different ideas on.

If anyone has a copy on mail, just Pm me and I will let you know my email address, so it can be sent to me.

Thanks in advance

:ok:

[vdd]

Gosh, after reading all of that I've forgotten the main topic!;)

Trying to get back to it...... apart from QF contacting waitlisters with the 3 yr contract offer will they being doing an external recruitment drive as well?

Plus...one more question.....
if they do.....will QF be dropping the height limit to 160cm as previously mentioned (ages ago on Pprune) and will recruitment be for language speakers only?:hmm: :}

Cheers

[Alotta]

Errrr.....if the height requirement drops, it drops for EVERYONE. Their reasoning is for safety and that's why it's 163cm.

I can't see it being dropped, would open up a can of worms. What about all thos people rejected purely because of height?

[DoorL1]

I know fixed term contract longhaul f/a's who lost their jobs at the end of their contracts. I believe there are no fixed term contracts at shorthaul. Casuals seem to be the way Qantas have headed. Qantas are trying to cut 1 billion from the operating costs, I'd be surprised to recruitment this year at mainline. Australian Airlines and Jet Connect will be picking up more work.

[Tarantella]

I'd be interested to know the 'source' of the recruitment rumour.
QF have just cancelled all L/H & S/H promotions due to an excess of crew and not enough people taking redundancies.
If no-one goes 'up' and they are still overstaffed: why would they recruit?
Crew are being forced to take their annual leave, long service leave is being assigned, part-time and Leave Without Pay are being allocated to virtually anyone that asks...
Doesn't seem like a prime time to be recruiting to me!

[Qwannas]

Hi cloud nine,

Just sent you a message, check your PM. :D

[GalleyHag]

I dont really know what this means but a friend of mine who has been on the waitlist for over 12 months is being interviewed in Sydney tomorrow. I read his letter which basically said they (QF) wanted to have a general discussion before his waitlist is extended. Im assuming that because he has been on the waitlist for so long that they want to make sure he still fits their requirements before extending his waitlist position.

[ozflyboy]

Without causing an all-out-war guys, I would be very interested to know people's opinions on the matter of current F/A's who may be full-time with an airline (specifically DJ or Impulse) being offered one of these 3 yr contracts with QF LH. Would it in your opinion, be worth giving up these permanent possies for a 3 yr contract with the possibility of permanency, or do they say no thanks to QF and maybe say bye-bye to their shortlisting and to the time and effort they put into the whole interview process????

Mmmmm.....food for thought......:confused: ;)

[Parry Hotter]

My choice is to stay with any employer that has given me permanent flying.

Who wants to live on the edge for 3 years, not knowing if you will have work after that. I ould not be able to stand the thought of not being able to plan for the future, no morgages, no car loans ect.

My advise is to not take contract work, unless you are fully prepared to be out of work at the end of it. I have seen this happen to many LH FA's.

[wing8]

Galleyhag...

You may want to look at my post under "QF/MAM short-listers re-intrviewing",I wrote in about the same issue..

[GalleyHag]

Wing8

Thanks, sorry should have had a look. My friend is not an MAM shortlister but QF, however I assume the interviews are for the same reason.

[wing8]

Thanks Galleyhag,good to hear that others are also going through same process who are not MAM,easy to get paranoid and read into these things far too much when you don't know what is going on...

[nickmelb]

cani just say one thing? without anyone getting all nasty...If QF was to offer you a 3 year contract wouldnt u take it?

Im sure there are plenty of ex ansett flighties that would love the opportunity to fly again. So what if QF are not offering permanent positions, unfortunately its a bad time in aviation. Everyone should feel lucky that they are even going to offer some positions...there are literally 1000's of candidates out there who would jump at the opportunity

just my 2 cents worth, seeing it from a different angle...i dont want to start a war!

cheeersssssss

[Jim Spence]

Hmmmmm, Mr. Nickmelb. You should apply for a job in the diplomatic corps! That was wonderfully said!!

[nickmelb]

mr spence

hahahaha

u back in Dubai on Saturday?

[Tarantella]

Nick,
I don't think that the contract is an issue per se if you are no longer employed in aviation - I think the question is rather- would you give up a fulltime position with another carrier, or a QF subsidiary, for the dubious possibility of full time employment at the end of your contract (something which has no guarantees)?

Perhaps better to wait for career progression and retain your years of service for LSL purposes (assuming that is an option).

Certainly if you are in it for a few years of excitement & then on to greener pastures, a contract is the way to go. But, if you want a career, or a mortgage, or security of sorts, then probably it would not suit.