De Havilland Comet C2 "Sagittarius" XK699

[country calls]

It has been confirmed that RAF Lyneham is to close and I would like to raise the question - what will become of the Comet Gate Guardian? This fine example of British achievment is already in a barely maintained condition and I fear that it could easily end up a victim of the cutters torch as the money supply for the domed unit dries up and precious resources are diverted to more needy projects.

As soon as timescales for closure are announced, I hope somebody will decide this rare jetliner has to be preserved and the wheels of transportation and preservation will grind swiftly into action.

Your thoughts please?

[Tiger_mate]

Interesting point this and I too fear that a JCB awaits its turn. FWIW I would like to see a sponsor or council take it over and leave it exactly where it is now. I am sure that the inevitable industrial development could work around it and it would serve as an appropriate memory to the base.

T_M

[Windy Militant]

As there is already a Comet at the Science Museums out station at Wroughton not a million miles away from Lyneham, I fear that unless sombody makes an active bid to save it, this aircraft is pretty much doomed to an ignominious end:(

[Hwel]

And the DAK memorial to air dispatchers, it was only moved there last year.

[fradu]

According to the book "RAF gate guards" this jet is owned by the RAF Museum and is on loan at Lyneham, so there's some hope.

HTH,

Mark

[treadigraph]

Ins't it a Comet 2 rather than the 4s that are preserved elsewhere? If so, a more interesting airframe.

Perhaps it should be move to Brize also if logistically possible? IIRC it was moved from Wyton to Lyneham by road a few years back.

[Molesworth Hold]

If I remember correctly the Lyneham Comet was in storage at Henlow prior to its move. I was refurbished at Lyneham around 1987/88. It was decided that all members of the Station should contribute to the stripping of the airframe of paint. Various squadrons/sections were allocated areas to work on. I claim a few square feet just aft of the cockpit, port side.

I also recall some cock up regarding the nameplate. It was unveiled by Princess Ann who had recently been given the title “The Princess Royal.” There was some embarrassment that this was missed, but she said she didn’t mind.

I may be wrong but there is a Mk 2 RC (XK 695) at Duxford.

[26451]

XK695 c/n 06030 was on display at Duxford years ago. It was broken up in October 1992. The fuselage then went to RAF Newton which was then later completely scrapped in 1995. The nose was saved and was at a scrap yard in Essex for a time. The nose is now at the Mosquito museum, London Colney having arrived there 17th Dec 1995.

Hope this helps

[treadigraph]

Correct Molesworth, my memory is faulty... bit of Googling, the one at Wyton was scrapped in 1987.

The one at Lyneham must be preserved - as far as I can tellit is the only complete survivor.

Treadders.

[Molesworth Hold]

Thanks 26451, I was mislead by a site called spyflight.co.uk into thinking that XK695 was still at Duxford. I can remember myself and TM going down to Duxford about 1979 and having a nose around her. Knowing me I will still have the free leaflet…somewhere. What’s quite disturbing (for me) is that I was at Newton between 92 and 94 and I didn’t know that that fuselage was there.

Perhaps the new display planned for Cosford will create some space for the C2?

[country calls]

Well after all the initial media hype, it appears that Lyneham has got at least another 9 years before closure!

But the replies on this thread have got me thinking, and I have come to the conclusion that talk is indeed cheap and it is time my actions became louder than words.

If it is the last remaining Comet 2, then it probably needs intervention soon to stop it degrading to a point where it is only fit for scrapping. But where do I start? I currently serve at Lyneham and having made some phone calls today, there is a willingness to preserve the airframe, but at no cost to the unit or MOD etc. I should imagine the first thing to do would be to carry out a survey and see what needs doing, but as it isn't one of Mr Lockheed's classic Hercules I have to be honest and say I wouldn't know where to begin.

I am a complete novice in the area of aircraft preservation, so if there is anybody out there who could give me any hints or pointers as to where to start and how best to tackle the project, please either reply on this thread, or PM me. Also if anybody knows of any good sites or books which will enable me to research the aircrafts past, please point me their way.

Thanks in advance!!

[Lukeafb1]

Nobody has mentioned, that XK695, was originally a B.O.A.C. aircraft, registered as G-GAPY (I think, I've lost my records) and which finished its flying life on 51 Squadron at Wyton. XK659, XK655 and XK671 were also on the squadron (I may have the prefix letters wrong, but the numbers are correct).

I remember, that during servicing, the B.O.A.C registration was clearly marked in many inaccessible areas of all four Comets. Flew in all of them many times.

[DrSyn]

You've probably had some PMs on this, country calls, but fradu is correct about the ownership of Saggy 699. She actually belongs to the RAF Museum Reserve Collection (RC). This has moved around a bit in recent years due to the depressingly continuous closures, such as Cardington, their former home. They are now at RAF Stafford but come under the jurisdiction of RAFM Cosford, as far as I know, and you should be able to contact them on 01902 376200.

699 is indeed the last "complete" Mk2 in existence and it is a shame if she does not have a dedicated group of volunteers taking care of her. As a dedicated preservationist in a slightly different field of transport, I can tell you that what you need is enthusiasts and donors in great numbers! When I was at LYE in April she was looking a little weathered but I put that down to the winter. Surely someone gives her a bit of TLC once a year for AOC's, or don't they do that any more? Anyway, I suggest you check with the owners for starters. I can't believe they intend her to go to scrap.

History-wise, 216 Sqn started accepting Comet 2s at LYE in July '56. The first 11 were earmarked for BOAC but none saw commercial service (re: Lukeafb1's post), and instead went to the RAF. After the ill-fated Comet 1s, BOAC waited for the Mk4s. XK699, the last of the "BOAC Mk2s", was built in '56 as G-AMXM, first flew on 02 Feb 57, and was delivered to (I think) 216 on 22 Feb - although I'm not sure whether the Testies had to try and bend any first, proir to Sqn delivery, as they did with our C130 Mk3 a couple of decades later!

The last C2 left LYE in '67. Perhaps Lukeafb1 can fill in here on any subsequent service with 51, which I believe went on into the '70s. For the record, the civil reggies for the Mk2s were, G-AMXA - M, and all became XKnnn, except 'D (XN453) and 'K (XV144) which were 2Es.

Anyway returning to topic, as you say, cc, you still have a bit of time in hand. Most restoration projects start after the event! There's no time like the present and I hope you gather a loyal following, bearing in mind that many will have more pressing worries to contend with. Let us know how you get on.

[Lukeafb1]

DrSyn,

Bow to your knowledge on the origin of the 51 Comets. All 4 of them had numerous chinagraph or paint BOAC markings, which were, I assume from what you have said, appended during manufacture. I assumed that they were ex-BOAC. As far as I can remember, the four a/c mentioned, all appeared on 51 around 1960/61, although it might have been earlier. XK 671 was the only one of the four which was kept in its original commercial configuration and used to ferry squadron personnel around the globe.

Happy days!

[DrSyn]

Having made a few calls after this thread went rather quiet :(, I have a correction to my above post. I got in touch with The Museum and they also were uncertain initially about 699's ownership. I have now been assured that she was only loaned to the RAFMRC by the RAF Historic Collection (DLO - RAF Wyton) who remain the true owners.

If you are still following the thread you started, country calls, email ([email protected]) or PM me and I will pass on the name and number you should call for further info, as they are not directly in the public domain. If you have already contacted the "owners" successfully, and have everything in hand, perhaps you could make a suitable post here to that effect and I'll get back to preserving locos!

However, I am sure there are many (497 views now) who would be interested to follow the progress of the Comet, as she is going to need TLC long before, and if, Lyneham winds down.

Lukeafb1, interesting info. I expect the 51 Sqn history would reveal which, if any, airframes went directly to your unit and which were handed on. I only remember that they were still around during my early service and quite a thrill to see in action, for those of us who appreciated that sort of thing.

[Bof]

Having watched the thread with great interest, I thought I'd add my two pennorth if you are interested.

The first two aircraft were originally designated T2s (XK669 and XK670) and were delivered to Lyneham in June 56. these were quickly followed by eight C2s with a beefed up floor. XK671, 695, 696, 697, 698, 699, 715 and 716.

By today's standards they were pretty primitive, no reverse thrust and the only pilot interpreted nav aids were two coffee grinder ADFs and a fairly early cloud radar which could pick up islands and coastlines. No VORs - there weren't any in the UK and no DME, just NDBs. The Nav had Gee Mk3, a sextant and an API. Most instrument landings were off a GCA. But straight up to about FL350ish and then drift up to FL450 by the TOD with a .74M cruise.

Remember no upper airways and the ony traffic up there was military jet. Not even the 707 was around in Europe in the late 50s. The captains were all experienced piston Transport guys and all the 2nd pilots had done at least a tour on jets. Originally we had four co-pilots on strength to cope with captain wastage (Comet only lifed at 5 years in the early days) and about 21 2nd pilots who were not "catted" on type. In other words, any hands on flying was purely a captain's decision.

However we had THREE Meteor 7s on 216 for the 2nd pilots to fly in our spare time and to maintain our jet IRs. Comet routes, apart from the bread and butter stuff to Changi and Adelaide was pretty well world wide. Happy days of a big pink map.

[DrSyn]

Splendid post, Bof. It's a rare priviledge to be in at the beginning of a new era and you obviously had that. Imagine, these days, anyone keeping 3 spare Meatboxes to allow the "youngsters" to maintain their skills in their spare time. With all the routes that were opening up at the time you must have been falling over each other for a tour on 216!

It is interesting what you say about the original 5-year life of the Comet 2. As far as I can tell, 51 Sqn flew its last one (XK695) (http://www.farnborough-airshow.com/airshow/sbacairshowhistory/comet.html) until 21 Jan 75, which was only 7 months before 216's shiny Mk4s were sold-off to Dan-Air as part of the great Purge of '75 :sad:. Only the nose of 695 exists now, making 699 the sole complete airframe and therefore worthy of preservation - IMHO.

Lukeafb1, I've had a look through the records and, as with most Brit transports, it's all a bit complicated because there were so few airframes produced, and some (eg: 2Es) were used for R&D or modified (at Marshall's) before delivery. The grounding of the Mk1s after BOAC YP's demise, while the early 2s were in production, adds to the complexity. For example, the early models re-allocated for RAF recce did not require the higher cabin pressurisation of the C2s destined for 216. Anyway, delivery sequence goes something like this.

216 Sqn
216 received 10 x Mk2s, fairly swiftly, between Jun '56 and May '57. They were, XK-> 670 [Corvus], 669 [Taurus], 671 [Aquila], 695 [Perseus], 696 [Orion], 697 [Cygnus], 698 [Pegasus], 699 [Saggitarius], 716 [Cepheus], 715 [Columba]. As Bof says, the first two were T2s, later reinforced to C2 standard. Perhaps their naming after stellar constellations illustrates the paucity of radio aids and the importance of Navs and sextants in those days!

192 Sqn (became, 21 Aug 58) 51 Sqn
3 x Mk2R (or "RCMs") were delivered to 192 Sqn in this order: XK-> 663 [Apr '57], 659 [Jul '57] and 655 [Apr '58]. 663 was destroyed in a hangar fire at Watton 13 Sep 57 and therefore did not serve on 51, although listed as such elsewhere (even the official records are dubious here - personal memory anyone?). 216 Sqn started equipping with (5x) C4s in 1962 and passed on a further 4 x C2s to 51 Sqn, thus: 715 [May '62], 671 [Sep '62], 695 [Mar '63] and 697 [Mar '67].

And just to return to the original topic ( :rolleyes: ) XK699 Saggitarius
Saggy 699 indeed arrived at Lyneham on 22 Feb 57 and served on 216 until being ferried to Henlow (didn't they preserve a TSR2 there in spite of Wilson?) on 16 Jun 67 and, much later, by road back to LYE! I am guessing that it may also have been the last 216 C2 at Lyneham, but 51 Sqn's continued to appear there sporadically during the early '70s as far as I remember. I also note that she clipped a tree with her starboard wing on approach to Turnhouse in Aug '58 (the mind boggles) but returned to service the following month.

Must dash. Matron's doing her night round.

[Lukeafb1]

DrSyn,

Although not a personal memory (I arrived at Watton in May 62), the 663 fire was still a hot (?) topic of conversation when I got there.

Apparently, the story goes, that the duty key orderly forgot to turn off the main hanger power. 663 was undergoing (unspecified) major modification in 4 hanger and a lead lamp was left live in the a/c. During the early evening, it ignited some part of the fuselage near the rear entrance door. The fire smouldered all night, gradually getting more severe, but still only smouldering. Apparently, the lack of available air in the sealed hangar, contributed to the smouldering, rather than a full fire. By the morning, the aircraft was virtually totally destroyed internally. Regular fire picket patrols, (because of lack of appreciable flames) failed to notice anything amiss. In their defence, they only patrolled the hangars externally and therefore the interior of the actual hangar floor space was out of vision. I actually knew one of the pickets on duty that night.

When the hanger was opened in the morning, the influx of air caused the whole fuselage to burst into flames, the nose undercarriage collapsed and the tail assembly punched a hole in the roof. The tail assembly then snapped off. As you said, the aircraft was destroyed.

An edited afterthought - I think I'm right in saying, that 663 was officially assigned to 51 and may have flown a few sorties on the squadron. The fire occured when it was being modified to 51 requirements.

Are you sure that you have the date of the fire correct? I know its in the dim and distant past, but I thought that the fire happened only a year or so, before I joined the squadron. Certainly I was not aware, when the story was (repeatedly) recalled, that it was all of 5 years before.

[DrSyn]

Great stuff, Lukeafb1. As I said, there seemed to be some doubt about the date, and your recollection would seem to favour an alternative of 3 Jun 59. This would have put 663 on 51 Sqn for the best part of a year. As jet transports were an expensive rarity at that time, I am quite sure it would have remained a hot topic for ages, if not indeed a legend.

I note from the front page of one of the Comet (http://www.dlyoung.freeserve.co.uk/DH106/COMET.htm) websites, that one of your possible contemporaries was present at the time and posted a correction to the location of the mishap. I wish he'd mentioned the date! There's another page here (http://www.spyflight.co.uk/COMET.HTM) which might interest you and which also shows the above date. Although this page is not entirely accurate, I reckon you must be right.

I would imagine that, in view of 51's rôle, the incident would have been kept fairly low-key at the time. It is strange that there should be almost a 2-year discrepancy, however. Such is the nature of PPRuNe, no doubt someone who was on the scene will pop-up with positive confirmation before long :) It's certainly revived my historical interest in the aircraft and the last survivor.

Shame they don't have F540s on line yet!

[FJJP]

And there's a taxyable Comet at Bruntingthorpe...

[BeauMan]

Dr Syn - I can't swear that XK699 was the Comet I saw, but there was certainly A Comet in the T2 hangar on the north side of RAF Henlow in the eighties. Herts / Bucks Wing Air Training Corps used to hold their Wing Field Days there, and I remember moving round various stands to complete various tasks, including one inside the T2 hangar, where the not insignificant bulk of a Comet was standing, albeit partially covered so I never saw the identity. By the size of her, and relative height, I'd say she had her nosewheel extended and the back end on trestles.

By an odd coincidence, and unbeknown to me at the time, the ex-Halton Beaufighter I was later to work on was also in there at the time, this was just before Tim Moore acquired her in 1987. Funny how how things turn out.

As for a TSR2 being at Henlow, I don't know which one it was, but there definately was one there at some point. I saw various pictures of it about a year ago on the Flypast forum. There was quite a funny story attached to that, but for the life of me I can't remember it just now...

Back to XK699, I really do hope something can be done to preserve her. Over the years we've mourned so many truly historic airframes - Gibson's Lancaster ED932 (scrapped 1946), the last Halifax (scrapped Radlett 1960-something), the last Hampden (scrapped Bicester 1950-something). Don't let XK699 be the next....

[wub]

BeauMan
The TSR2 at Henlow was XR 220, which was moved to Cosford in 1974, see http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79328&highlight=tsr2

[ORAC]

Flight Engineer's Log - (http://www.dlyoung.freeserve.co.uk/DH106/log2.htm)

1955

G-AMXE Comet 2

18th July 1955 saw the first flight of G-AMXE which lasted 40 minutes. Then on the same day a 25 minute hop was made to Cambridge where XE was converted to 2R specification, by Marshall’s of Cambridge, for signals duties. (R = Reconnaissance). This aircraft was re-registered as XK663 and allocated to RAF192 Sqd.

Converted to 2R it joined RAF 192 Sqn as XK663 in April 1957.

1957

XK663 Comet 2 (Log. entry reads:T.Mk2 90 Group)

From 22nd February XK663 underwent schedule testing with particular attention being paid to the 112 volt electrical system, Bullet de-icing, radar checks, checks on cabin temperature, performance checks and auto-trim evaluation. These checks were completed by the 21st March after twelve flights.

On 22nd March Dave Davies (ARB) took a 2hr. 45 flight. Minor problems were detected and these were later rectified. Peter Buggé did a final 35min. check flight the following day. Certificate granted XK663 was handed over to 192 Sqd. on 19th April.

Mysteriously on 13th September this aircraft was destroyed in hanger fire.

UK serials: (http://www.ukserials.fsnet.co.uk/xk.pdf)
06027XK663 Comet C(RCM).2: f/f 18/07/1955, ex G-AMXE n.t.u, d/d 18/04/1957, w/o 13/09/1957.

[DrSyn]

Unfortunately, ORAC, it is not clear from that record, contained in the Comet site I linked above, whether E Young (the F/E) or D Young (the site author) inserted that info at a later date. From a historian's perspective it is not definitive, alas. Even the ASN (http://aviation-safety.net/database/1957/570913-1.htm) ventures both dates, as per previous posts. What is needed is someone who "was there", or somone who can check the 540s. I remain sure in the best traditions of PPRuNE (which includes us all going wildly off-topic :) ), the true answer will emerge!

[Lukeafb1]

Anybody,

Out of curiosity, why, after XK695 was assigned to the RAF Museum at Duxford (saw it there a couple of times years ago), would it have been removed and scrapped? Seems to go against the whole ethos of "museum".

XK695 was the only aircraft which I was intimately associated with, which was preserved.

Cor, I've just realised, this is my 100th post. Its only taken 3 years!!

[country calls]

Just a quick update, as I have been away downroute and haven't had chance to keep you all updated with my progress.

I had a look round the aircraft and without going inside or examining it in any great detail it still seems reasonably sound, just in need of some TLC really. It looks quite shabby as it is parked near some trees and the sap and algae etc is fairly inground into the paint. I looked into using detergent based cleaners, and it is unfortunately a non=starter as the resulting run off would cause an environment problem, if it got into the watercourse. I did think of enlisting the help of an ATC Sqn to get stuck in with scrubbing brushes but I fear it would damage the paintfinish too much. When I suggested cutting the offending trees down, you can imagine the response!

Thanks for all the replies on this thread and let me assure you it is not going away, something needs to be done and I am probably ideally placed to do it.

Dr Syn, thanks for the offer and an email will be winging to you soon.

CC

[country calls]

Just a quick update to keep this thread riding high.

I am still in the process of tracking down the hapless individual at Lyneham who has signed for 699 and all I am saying on that is, you can run but you can't hide!!

Saggy does get washed. Evidently there is a contract for the airframe to be washed once a year, and the chap who deals with it tells me that when she gets a bit green about the gills, a team goes down and do the biz.

The next bit of good news is an engineer with experience on Comets has offered me his help to do a survey of the structure. The company is sending me first to the Falklands and then to the USA, but we reckon the survey will take place in late Oct or early Nov this year.

As a funny aside, anyone I have spoken to about Saggy's general condition (and there have been a few) has come out with the same phrase: " You know the floors F :mad: ed don't you?" Guys(and one gal), I think I've got the message thanks!!

Stay Tuned Folks

CC

[DamienB]

Lukeafb1 - Out of curiosity, why, after XK695 was assigned to the RAF Museum at Duxford (saw it there a couple of times years ago), would it have been removed and scrapped? Seems to go against the whole ethos of "museum".

Sadly it's not the only rare airframe Duxford have scrapped, and they have the Shackleton in their sights for the chop treatment next (though some bits will then be kept as an 'interactive exhibit').

As both Hendon and Cosford have also scrapped airframes whose rarity value approaches that of the proverbial rocking horse droppings, it would appear significant airframes have safer futures in independent museums rather than with large institutions such as the IWM, RAF Museum... or MoD!

[country calls]

Just to keep the topic riding high, I am pleased to report that the wheels are still in motion albeit very slowly. As soon as I get any more news I will let you all know.

Until then, I am wondering if anyone who has made posts regarding Saggy's chequered history, would mind if I used the info as a basis for an article I am planning to write for the Lyneham Staion Magazine?

[ozplane]

As I understand it, the Duxford Comet 2 was "too far gone due to corrosion in and around the undercarriage structire" to be worth saving. The fact that they have a Comet 4 as well might have led to a choice having to be made. That one's restoration is progressing, albeit slowly.

[pr00ne]

Ozplane,

Shouldn't that quote really read, ".....through neglect we've allowed the corrosion to become too bad................"

It was the same at Hendon with the Beverley, these things fly in and are then left to rot. If they can't look after them properly then they shouldn't be allowed to have them.

[Merlin70]

Can those who visit this Forum and are making efforts to 'save' XK699 drop me a PM.


regards

tc

Edit: This can continue here OK but we are not allowing a linked 'campaign.'

[Milt]

Entry of the Comet 2C into the RAF.
Extracts from memoirs with apologies for the length of the post.

In August 1956 I was selected as one of a team of three pilots to do RAF acceptance trials on the deHavilland Comet 2C. The Comet 1 was the first commercial jet aircraft and had first flown on 27 July 1949. Sqn Ldr Peter Baker was the team leader and Flt Lt Geoff Fletcher the other pilot. Peter later teamed up wit Brian Trubshaw as the initial test pilots on the Concord. Geof later became the RAF's test pilot on the proposed F111K. Together with flight engineers, we studied pilots' notes and determined the essential data to be able to fly the Comet with minimum conversion time. Approach speeds, minimum control speeds, emergency systems operation and limitations were all consigned to one's memory.

On 13 August 1956 someone flew Peter Baker to Hatfield where he was to join a company pilot to fly Comet No 669 back to Boscombe Down. Peter arranged, before departure, that he would taxi in to the Boscombe Down tarmac to off-load the company pilot and at the same time I would climb aboard to occupy the right seat. Peter had watched a circuit, flown by the company pilot, at Hatfield and had then changed seats to become Captain for the flight back to Boscombe Down.

I passed the company pilot, with a nod of the head, on the steps and that was the last we saw of him as he headed back to Hatfield. Seeing the cockpit of the Comet for the first time was interesting enough but to climb immediately into the right seat and start taxying was a challenge which I enjoyed. Peter flew one circuit and we changed seats. I then flew a circuit, taxied in to the flight line where Peter exited and Geoff Fletcher joined me to sit in the right seat. I showed him a circuit and we then changed seats. He then flew his first circuit, after which we parked the aircraft. That was the completion of our conversion. Flights to follow were to be devoted to a 100 flying hour coverage of all aspects of aircraft handling, with a few performance checks included. Something not recalled caused 669 to disappear from the scene soon after and we continued flight testing on 671.

Later that day, Peter and I flew 2.45 hrs assessing handling characteristics.

The Comet 2C was a modified Comet 1, having been fitted with drooped leading edges to its wings and structural improvements to its fuselage. To me, the tail looked to be too small in area. This showed up as inadequate directional stability, particularly in the landing configuration. The triplicated powered flying control systems, being the first for a civil airliner were terrible. Direct simple spring feel gave no sense of indicated air speed. High break out forces made it impossible to fly smoothly without resorting to unusual ways of inserting flying control inputs. The breakout force on the elevators was 5 pnds, on the ailerons 12 pnds and on the rudders a massive 35 pnds. Imagine trying to drive a car in which you have to exert a force to the steering wheel of 5 pnds before you can achieve any steering wheel movement.

We soon found that the large elevator trim wheel, conveniently positioned beside the centre console, was easier to use than the control column. Small movements of the trim wheel were a good substitute to battling one's way through that 5 pnd breakout force each time the elevator needed a nudge. Our harsh criticism of the flying control feel systems caused a redesign of those systems to incorporate "Q feel", which I understand was a vast improvement. Q feel provides a pilot with a feel variable with indicated air speed.

On 4 September I flew tests to measure rates of roll and oscilliatory stability in Comet 671. Ray Bray was my copilot and Jock Cowan the navigator and special instrumentation operator. A couple of visitors from the Test Pilots' School came along for the ride. A trace recorder had been installed to record the test results. The weather forecast had cloud from 8,000 ft to 22,000 ft.

Measuring rates of roll involves rolling the aircraft into a 90 degree bank then applying full aileron to roll at maximum rate through to 90 degrees the other way. This was to be repeated many times at differing air speeds, mach number and configurations. These gyrations are somewhat sickening to those not directly involved in control. My stomach never lost its sensitivity to abnormal manoeurvres and I was ready to call a halt, particularly when I noticed the odd sick-bag appearing. Also my arms were becoming fatigued. So at 30,000 ft I called Boscombe Down VHF radio direction finder for a course to steer to base. I was given a north westerly heading and turned the aircraft on to that heading. I had reasoned that the Comet would be roughly in the same block of air in which we had started our rolls about an hour before and that we would not be far from base.

I started a moderate rate of descent and climbed out of the seat to give one of the visiting pilots a chance to handle the aircraft. My directions to him were to descend to break through cloud base and to hold level when clear. This gave me the opportunity to wander around the rear fuselage and assess such things as the noise levels and vibrations of the airframe. On returning to the flight deck, I could see that we were beneath cloud at 9,000 ft. Jock Cowan, the navigator, had a map in his hand and was peering intently at the terain. Plugging into intercom, I jokingly said "What's with this map reading Jock ? Don't you know how to work the G set ?"

He said something to indicate that the G set was no damned good and had refused to indicate properly. He had been operating the instrumentation recorders and now had no idea where we were. I asked whether anyone had called Boscombe VHF/DF. Many calls had been made and it was assumed that there had been some failure of Boscombe facilities as they could not be heard on any of the usual frequencies. We made contact with other aircraft to check our own radios.

About this time, we could see a coast line approaching. We all assumed that we could now only be approaching the coast of the Bristol Channel, having over-flown Boscombe Down. We flew over the coast and Jock tried to match what he could see with the map. He wasn't having much success until someone said, "That little town down there looks like Illfracoombe, so that must be the Bristol Channel." On the assumption that it was Illfracoombe, Jock came up with a rough heading of 090 to fly to base.

We settled on that heading for a while. Jock and I conferred and we made further attempts at map reading. Wishing to take command of the situation I resumed the left seat so that I could more readily operate the radios. I changed radio frequency to 121.5 Mhz, the international distress frequency. Almost immediately, I heard an aircraft talking to Martlesham Heath which I knew to be an airfield on the E coast of England. When I could get a word in edgeways, I called Martlesham Heath with a "Do you read ?". The answer was affirmative so I then requested a true bearing. The DF operator came back with 135 degrees. I could hardly believe this so I requested a confirmation. The bearing was confirmed.

There we were heading East, somewhere over France. Whew ! Martlesham Heath requested our aircraft type, flight conditions and type. After responding, we were asked if we needed emergency assistance. I declined and commenced a climb back up to 30,000 ft to conserve our dwindling fuel. During the climb, we went through the radio horizon for Boscombe Down VHF and soon had new courses to steer to take us back to England. We had no IFF and I was half expecting an intercept by French fighters. None appeared and I never did hear whether they had us on radar.

We cruised for some time before getting back into the UK G chain, allowing the Navigator to accurately establish our position. The rest was routine, except for a distinct feeling of having egg on our faces. We had penetrated a jet stream at our higher altitudes and this had blown us well into France, before I started that first descent. The coast line we had come across was the west coast of France. The G set would not work for Jock because we were out of range of the particular G chain extending only over England. This was the worst case of uncertainty of position that I had ever experienced.


Some days later, I flew a measured take-off in the Comet to determine the extent by which the drooped wing leading edges had reduced high incidence drag during take off. Two Comet 1s had been lost during civil operations from Cairo and Karachi airports whilst attempting take-offs in high temperature conditions. Pilots, unused to slow acceleration with heavy aircraft in high temperature conditions, had rotated excessively nose high too early in their take-off rolls. The thrust from the engines was inadequte, under these conditions, to accelerate the aircraft to a lift off in the remaining runway lengths available.

I calculated, very carefully, that on a runway of 11,000 feet I could try for an exaggerated nose high attitude as soon as there was enough elevator power, measure the acceleration in this attitude for 5,000 ft and if inadequate, lower the nose to accelerate normally to a lift off speed over the remaining length of runway.

The Comet had a small tail-wheel projecting a little from below the rear fuselage to prevent damage if the fuselage should ever get too close to the ground. This occurred at about 20 degrees nose-up.

For my take off, to be made at maximum weight, I had a mobile unit with a radio positioned along the runway to advise me just how close the little tail wheel was to the runway surface during my exaggerated nose high take off. I started the take off with the control column firmly against its rear stops. The nose came surging up at about 65 Kts and I was able to adjust nose angle to achieve about 1 foot tail wheel clearance. As I rotated, the audible stall warning sounded and a rudder shaker operated as expected. I persisted, noting a slower than normal acceleration. Assessing that the acceleration would be adequate to reach lift-off without lowering the nose, we lumbered into the air with runway to spare. The stall warning and shaker continued for a period until speed exceeded the stalling speed by 20%.

Calculations showed that the drooped leading edges had been effective in substantially lowering high incidence drag and that it was now likely that only gross diversions from the recommended take-off procedures, which now included a rotate speed, could result in any repeats of the previous disasters.

Another unusual trial in the Comet was made on the ground. This involved pressurising the aircraft to a full design overpressure. The trial was a carry over from the investigations into Comet fuselage fatigue failures. Engineers wanted some measurements of fuselage distortion, so we sat in the aircraft with engines running and artificially pressured the fuselage to about a 9 psi over-pressure. At a total air pressure of 23.7 psi, I could not detect any physiological differences, except that breathing rate and extent was reduced.

On 15th September Peter Baker and I took Comet 671 on a flight all over the country making Battle of Britain fly-pasts. This was a pleasant diversion.

I was determined to check out the triplicated FCS as far as I could take it. Each system could be closed down independantly and the hydraulics came from several engine driven pumps.

I closed down engines until there was only one pump powering the FCS and then closed down 2 of the FCSs. 671 hardly noticed its predicament until I threw in large control inputs at which stage jack stalling became apparent. The single FCS quickly reverted to some normalcy with controls static. A lot of one armed paper hanging managed to get everything going again.

We finished our 100 hours of flight testing and report writing about mid October 1956 when 671 probably went back to Hatfield for a spell.

[John Farley]

Milt

Nice story

Only nit-pick is that the take off accidents you mentioned were due to it being possible to STALL the wing with the main wheels on the ground - OK I know that would increase the drag - the droop LE was to INCREASE the AoA needed to stall to greater than you could reach with the wheels on the ground.

JF

[StopStart]

She is looking very sorry for herself at the moment :(

Here's a thought: we've paid BAe £3Bn odd to churn out a load of MRA4s that we've now decided we don't want. As they've yet to deliver them I assume that money is, as yet, "unspent". That being the case I suggest that the RAF now request that BAe to take said monies and spend a fraction of it on using their Nimrod workforce to get Saggy all neat and tidy again.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Thread re-opened for further interest.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Ay thank you...

Last weekend I bumped into a retired AQM who has strong views about the preservation of 'Saggy' . She's not on the internet so I'm asking questions on her behalf.

Do anyone have an update?

[Dengue_Dude]

My overall memory of THAT machine was Sqn Cdrs ordering people to 'volunteer' to clean it up when it was stuck there in the first place.

Perhaps it could be joined by a C130K, a Harrier, a Nimrod and a VC10 . . .

[scarecrow450]

Once Lyneham closes it may !! be earmarked for storage at a top secret Shropshire heli base until the RAFM decides where to put her. :oh::oh:

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Storage at Shawbury? (In bits?) That would be a satisfactory outcome, the alternative being the scrappy.

Looking forward to anything more concrete as and when anyone's able to spill more beans.

[Amos Keeto]

I have been following this thread as I have close links with Lyneham and am very proud to have flown in '699 as an ATC cadet in 1966. We went out over Cornwall to do decompression checks which was great if you like some ear-popping stuff and steep dives...yes in a Comet 2! :ooh:

I understand the 216 Squadron Association meet annually at Lyneham and they used to open up 'Saggie' for them to view. However, with the state of the floor, this is probably no longer allowed.

I really thought that when 216 Squadron disbanded at Lyneham with their Comet 4s and reformed at Brize with TriStars, that '699 would go to Brize.
The RAF Museum at Cosford already have Comet Mk.1XB G-APAS, which I understand is going to be repainted back as XM829 in RAF marks as it flew as a DH trials aircraft. This may have some bearing on whether '699 is saved or not as RAFM may consider they already have an early Comet and don't need another! Personally I would prefer to see '699 preserved as that was an operational RAF machine whereas '829 wasn't.

[Amarok]

I am sorry to report the RAF Museum inspected the Saggy autumn 2009, they reported the corrosion in the fuse was too far gone 'one of the inspectors said he could push his finger through the lower fuse skin ! please remember this aircraft has been parked over grass for nearly 25 years and I suspect she has been slowly rotting from the inside out.
When I used to work on Boeing 707's and 720's we had as part of the daily check to ensure the fuse drains were clear, every day we would get some water out and if it had been raining we would get a bucket full. If the comet had drain holes, they should have been checked monthly or they could have been painted over ! so water that leaked in via the door seals (they only seal when pressurised on the ground you can post letters through the gaps!) so what has happend is exactly what happend to the comet at duxford, the beverly at Hendon etc, the fuse has turned into a bath and slowly corroded.
The RAFM have removed everything they could from the Comet (Sept 2009) and due to the corrosion were going to scrap it on the spot. It sounds like someone has stepped in and said hang on so the descision has been put on hold, but the early indication from the RAFM is they don't want Saggy as they have Comet 1X up at Cosford and will equip it with the bits they got from saggy and make it look like a C2 (They did the same with the brit and destroyed the only 707 in the UK, so they are not hanging about)

This week a civvy firm are on site up at J1 and J2 dismantling the C130K's:uhoh:
I think the ONLY viable option is to move saggy to Kemble and position her next to the Brit and form a transport command preservation fleet (Possible C130K later ??), I am sure if some dialog with the herc dismatlers, RAFM and The Brit preservation team might bear fruit but at this present moment she faces the Axe

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

16 Nov 2010

(Thanks for replies)

I had an outside walk around the Comet this morning and my unqualified opinion is that it is saveable. I didn't find anywhere in the lower fuselage that I could 'put my finger through'. The jet pipe cowlings are indeed rotted through. There's plenty of evidence of intergranular corrosion. The undercarriage main components seem to be okay. Various smaller struts on the undercarriage are badly corroded and would probably need replacing or bracing.

One of the guys who went on board earlier this year tells me that the insides are in a sorry state. He felt the cabin floor was unsafe, and mistook what he thought was a carpet, that turned out to be a thick layer of mildew/moss.

But I believe she could be saved. It would be a massive cop out to scrap her, in my opinion.

[Amos Keeto]

I thought you all might like to see a couple of slides I took of XK699:
Firstly, here she is arriving at Lyneham from storage at RAF Henlow, 16th October 1986.
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n184/Amoskeeto/XK699onlorryLyneham16-10-86.jpg
....and eight months later, fully restored and installed near the gate, 20th June 1987
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n184/Amoskeeto/XK699COMETC2cLynehamgate20-6-87.jpg

[WE992]

The second photo is a far cry from the sorry state she looks today.

[Skipness One Echo]

Any update on this? Is the Comet visible from outside the fence?

[WE992]

Yes she was still there this morning.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

I understand that the RAF Museum will be saving her. Albeit crated up in a hangar at Shawbury. Don't know when.

[Proplinerman]

I do hope this a/c can be saved, as I think it is the last Comet 2-all the other (quite a few) Comets preserved are, not surprisingly, given the production figures, 4s, though there is the sole surviving (I think) complete Comet 1 at Cosford (G-APAS). That a/c has the replacement round windows, but there is the Comet 1 fuselage at London Colney which still has the original rectangular windows that caused all the problems back in 1952-4. There is also a Comet 4 (or at least that's what it says on it, but that's not necessarily right, tho unlikely not to be) nose at London Colney. Anyone know the id of that?

Anyway, mention of the Comet 2 takes me back nearly thirty-six years to a memorable visit to Strathallan when Sir William Roberts(on?) had his collection there. I photographed XK655 there and I've put a link to my photo below. As you'll see from my caption tho, I know it was subsequently broken up.

Links to photos by me of all a/c above:

Comet 1 at Cosford:

ScanImage11 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48975048@N06/5309144735/)

Comet 1 fuselage at London Colney:

667 London Colney 11-9-07 DH Comet 1 1024 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48975048@N06/5836771237/)

Comet 4 nose at London Colney:

667 London Colney 11-9-07 BOAC Comet nose section 1024 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48975048@N06/5837277024/)

XK655 at Strathallan in 1976:

JetPhotos.Net Photo » XK655 (CN: 06023) United Kingdom - Royal Air Force (RAF) De Havilland DH-106 Comet R.2 by Michael Blank (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6048673&nseq=2)

And also, the Comet 4 at Everett:

651 Everett 24-9-05 Comet 4C | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48975048@N06/5319023695/)

The Comet 4 at Bruntingthorpe:

656-689 Bruntingthorpe 13-8-06 Comet fso1 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48975048@N06/5043906025/)

The Comet 4 at East Fortune:

DSC_0059 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48975048@N06/5044541948/)

The one at Hermeskeil, Germany:

ScanImage27581 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48975048@N06/5282245755/)

And here is a real rarity, the fuselage of the one and only Comet 3 at the end of its life:

Woodford air show June 1974 Comet 3 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48975048@N06/5276895899/)

I've seen the ex-Dan Dare 4 at Wroughton, but can't put my hands on my photo, so I think I've seen all the Comets in preservation bar XK695 at Lyneham.

Finally, here's a link to a photo of another Comet, tho not quite what you're expecting:

667OldWarden100907Comet2 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48975048@N06/4826411116/)

[T-21]

The nose is about the only part worth saving ,the rest is too corroded. It has been sitting around for nearly 45 years,miracles take longer.

[WE992]

Perhaps it will stay in situ on the gate now the MOD has found a future role for Lyneham.

[izod tester]

The Comet 4C at East Fortune is ex 216 Sqn XR399. XR398 is the one at Hermeskeil.

[ZH875]

Perhaps it will stay in situ on the gate now the MOD has found a future role for Lyneham.


Probably, as it will be cheaper to leave it where it is than move it.


Moving all those RAF/Army/RN people to Lyneham, it's a good job they haven't sold off ALL the FQ's isn't it.

[scotbill]

Comet II landing at Lyneham in 1957.
Does anyone else remember an incident that year when one 216 aircraft suffered multiple engine failures on T/O and managed to get take advantage of the fact that Lyneham sits about 100' above the surrounding terrain to pick up enough speed to stagger round the circuit effectively on one?
Great save as the Comet IV was being touted at the time and another Comet disaster would probably have been the end of that.

http://www.pprune.org/[IMG]http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa453/scotbill/Comet2Lyneham57.jpghttp://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa453/scotbill/Comet2Lyneham57.jpg

[WE992]

Fantastic photo. Lyneham is now a sad site having no aircraft and few people.

[Proplinerman]

It's two years since the last post in this thread and today I happened to read this on Wikipedia (not that that means it's reliable, from what I've heard about W): "A Comet C2 Sagittarius with serial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_military_aircraft_serials) XK699, later maintenance serial 7971M, has been on display at the gate of RAF Lyneham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Lyneham) in Wiltshire, England since 1987.[174] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Comet#cite_note-198)[175] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Comet#cite_note-XK699-199) In 2012, with the planned closure of RAF Lyneham, the aircraft was slated to be dismantled and shipped to the RAF Museum Cosford where it will be re-assembled for display."

Well, I was at Cosford a few weeks ago and it wasn't on display there, plus, if it had been dismantled and taken there, I'm sure it would have been mentioned somewhere on the net. So, does anyone know the a/c's current status please?

I've also found that there is another Comet (4) survivor, in Mexico. However, keen as I am to see historic airliners, I don't think I'll be visiting that country any time soon, from what I've heard about the current level of drug-related violence there-tho someone please correct me if I'm doing Mexicans a dis-service by saying the above; no offence intended.

[DaveReidUK]

Here's the RFQ, from last year, seeking a contractor to dismantle XK699 and reassemble it at Cosford:

Dismantlement and relocation of Gate Guardian Comet C2 XK699 - Government Tenders, Government News and Information - Government Online (http://www.government-online.net/gate-guardian-comet-c2-xk699/)

No info on whether the contract has since been awarded.

Edit: PQ from April this year:

"Mr Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what plans he has for the historic Comet aircraft which is at the entrance to the former RAF Lyneham base. [149378]

Mr Robathan: The RAF are currently examining options for the future of the De Havilland Comet C2 XK699 which is the gate guardian at the former RAF Lyneham. No decision has yet been made."

[Proplinerman]

Thanks very much for that.

The dismantling and move tender looks very positive, as do the sums mentioned as to its value/cost: "Contract value: £40,000 – £93,000." That said however, I know nothing about the costs of dismantling, moving and then re-assembling any aircraft, let alone a large one like a Comet, so perhaps these figures were just too low for any contractor to be seriously interested?

From the fact that the closing date was April 2012 and that nothing has happened tho, and also given the completely non-committal reply from the Govt minister to the PQ put down on the subject in April of this year, that you quote, I surmise that there were probably no takers for the tender to move the aircraft.

We can therefore, it seems to me, just hope and await developments. I'm a propliners man myself, with no RAF background, so I prefer to put my money into propliner preservation, so, sorry, but I can't offer to form a "Save the Lyneham Comet" action group.

Also, I hope that, in spite of T-21's comment above: "The nose is about the only part worth saving ,the rest is too corroded. It has been sitting around for nearly 45 years,miracles take longer;" nevertheless such a historic aircraft, the last of its mark, can be saved.

And given the uncertainty, can the a/c be photographed in its current location, does anyone know? I was planning to go to East Midlands Aeropark on a free Saturday I've got coming up on the 24th of this month, but perhaps a more ambitious trip (I live in M/C), down to Lyneham might be in order, before it's too late.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

The dismantling and move tender looks very positive, as do the sums mentioned as to its value/cost: "Contract value: £40,000 – £93,000." That said however, I know nothing about the costs of dismantling, moving and then re-assembling any aircraft, let alone a large one like a Comet, so perhaps these figures were just too low for any contractor to be seriously interested?


Do the guys on 'Crash and Smash' not do big moves anymore?


Aaron.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Just seen FB posts saying that the Lyneham Comet is being chopped up right now. The poster has heard that the cockpit is to be saved.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Just seen a FB post saying the guys are on site chopping it up, and the FB poster "believes that the cockpit is to be saved"

AH&N thread here - http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/95212-lyneham-close-what-fate-comet-3.html

Mods, please merge when spent

[MPN11]

I shall not convey this information to the OH, a former Adj of No 216 from Comet days, as she might utter an uncharacteristic expletive.

For myself, I'll just say :mad: :mad:

[MPN11]

<whimper> <sniffle> ... and posted on the other thread. :mad:

[Dengue_Dude]

Thank God, I remember having to clean the bl**dy thing . . .

[MG]

I scraped all the old paint off it with some really horrible stripping stuff when I was holding at Lyneham at the end of 1986. Slightly sad that it was all for nothing!

[WE992]

I saw the post on FB so I decied to drive past the gate this evening. Although it was dark it still appeared to be stood on its undercarriage. I will have look in the morning on the way home when it is daylight.

[Photoplanet]

I would chip in with the question "Is nothing sacred?"... But, sadly, I already know the answer to that one. Still, look at all the money that's being saved by 'closing' Lyneham....

[Stendec5]

Indeed. Money "we" can now happily add to the £11,000,000,000 we dole out in
Foreign Aid together with the £50,000,000 per day (work it out per annum)
that "we" hand over to the "EU". More money "we" can donate to India to help its Mission to Mars.
Truly, the ----ing lunatics have taken over the asylum.

[WE992]

Still sat there this morning looking as neglected as ever with both wings, tailplane and fin still attached!

[Ken Scott]

As I recall she is a unique aircraft, the only Mk 2 Comet left, it would be a disgrace to chop her up - I thought she was destined for Cosford?

[Lukeafb1]

Ken,

I could be wrong (it is 51 years since I was a Halton Brat), but I believe that there is still a Mk 2 (and a Mk 1) residing on the airfield at Halton.

[ksimboy]

Ken, I believe the airframe is in such poor condition they can't move it sadly. A sad end looks likely for the Comet unfortunately .

[Ken Scott]

Warning: entering 'spotter's corner'.

No Comets left at Halton it would seem, for a list of surviving ac in the UK:

http://http://www.ukairfields.org.uk/comet.html

The C2 at the De Havilland museum is a cockpit section used as a 4C simulator so the Lyneham one is the last C2 though there is a 1XB at Cosford which is probably why they don't want it. Seems a shame, & why don't they want a gate guardian for the Defence Training College?

Oh, I forgot, it will be 'brown-job' - led, so they'll probably have a tank or something to reflect the many years of aviation heritage of the site. I guess they can't wait to wipe out any trace of the 'Hundred year experiment'.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

So, a summary of rumours, due to the last post being deleted

She'll be chopped up next week (Tues 12th Nov '13), the "front fuselage" will go to Old Sarum Museum, and the rest will be scrapped.

More from me tonight. I'm being asked to put a few people in touch with each other. The "Comet Reunion Group" have all sorts of memorabilia including Aircraft Publications and Logbooks. As well as an active membership.

[Bigt]

Thursday around 1300 there was a large cockpit travelling past Stonehenge towards Amesbury on the A303. Did not get a good look so can not be sure what it was

[Skipness One Echo]

So to be sure, the Comet has been destroyed less the nose and that may be Cosford bound?

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Nope. Latest rumour is "front fuselage" to Old Sarum Museum, rest to be scrapped. Happening next week.

[happydays123]

Better to say dismantled sad but it has to be Cockpit and part of wings to be salvaged:)

[happydays123]

Yep last post correct

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

I think "cockpit" is fighter jet terminology. I'm hoping they save the "front fuselage", that is, the flight deck and some of the passenger cabin.

[NutLoose]

What a waste, the last of the first ever RAF jet transports being chopped up, worse considering it had been preserved before being put on the gate and left to rot. One wonders how future generations will look on us for not saving the last one, probably the same as could have been said about the final Halifax scrapped as late as 1961. Fair enough their are a couple now, the wreck in Hendon, the rebuilt one in Canada and the composite in Elvington, but they had to salvage one from the bottom of a fiord and that didn't come cheap.

[dragartist]

I am not too sure if the two from 51 at Wyton survive as garden sheds or similar. I think one became a novelty at a restraint. I certainly recall seeing the last one between 4 shed and 86A being cut up and taken away circa 1988 ish.

[Davef68]

I am not too sure if the two from 51 at Wyton survive as garden sheds or similar. I think one became a novelty at a restraint. I certainly recall seeing the last one between 4 shed and 86A being cut up and taken away circa 1988 ish.

All three were scrapped - The last was at Duxford but was retrieved by the RAF, used for dog branch training and then scrapped

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Moderators. I have just exchanged messages with "country calls"

Could you please change the title of this thread to -

De Havilland Comet C2 "Sagittarius" XK699

Today she was chopped up and (I am informed) that the front fuselage is on its way to the Old Sarum Museum (Boscombe Down Heritage Collection)

There is plenty of valuable information on this thread

(thanks Prune Pop)

Comments below are therefore merged from the Military Aircrew thread on the same subject

[Always a Sapper]

Sadly it's gone...

Cockpit and fuselage section forward of the wings left on a lowloader, at least one engine spotted out and on the ground, don't know what happend to this or the other engines. The seats left last week.

The rest is in a big heap with a machine sat on top ready for the skip.

It would be nice to see it replaced with a K though.

[Ken Scott]

It would be nice to see it replaced with a K though.

Sadly no chance, it would be too expensive to put one there. You can expect a tank or some such to reflect the true 'joint' nature of the new tri-service college.

[pbk]

Unfortunately, The front end of the aircraft slid past me at J16 of the M4 at around 2pm today, heading east, roughly cut, and in a sorry state.....

[hobbit1983]

The cockpit section arrived at the Boscombe Down Aviation Collection today (which is actually located at Old Sarum Airfield).

[November4]

Those on the Book of Face .... there are some photos of the destruction and wreckage of the Comet on the RAF Lyneham group pages.

[NutLoose]

Pictures

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=222912&d=1384372065

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=222910&d=1384372062

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=222911&d=1384372064


From

Lyneham Comet XK699 - Page 2 (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?123758-Lyneham-Comet-XK699/page2)

[hobbit1983]

More info here on the BDAC Blog Hangar 1 (http://bdacatoldsarum.tumblr.com/)

[samwright]

De-havilland Comet C mk2 XV 699 SAGITTARIUS was chopped up between the 10th and 12th November.
Cynically the MOD Lyneham staff closed the main gates and covered them with large white sheets to hide the destruction of this aircraft,the last one complete.
The cockpit and about 30ft of fuselage is at Boscombe Down.
The aircraft was owned by the RAF,never by the museums and although Cosford agreed to take it for storage and later refurb they could not afford the £20000 transport costs.I confirmed this with the Cosford management.
This aircraft could have been saved with public donation had the RAF Heritage staff made public the importance of saving it.
Instead it got to the point where the civil contractors needed access to the land it was standing on and had penalties on the MOD if they were delayed.
Those who were responsible and authorised the destruction should resign,yet again we have seen the senior officers of the RAF in the posts supposed to protect and enhance our historic military aviation absolutely useless.
As far back as 2009 Bob Spink MP laid before parliament early day motion 1555 alerting parliament and press the importance of this airframe.
The RAF were aware of this and yet they still prevaricated for four years
culminating in last weekends destruction.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Thanks Sam

I wish the Boscombe Down Museum best wishes in the restoration work they will be doing to the nose section of "Saggy"

Although there is no point in crying over spilt milk, I feel a lot of us have been deceived and betrayed over the recent events.

I have noted down a chronology of what went wrong over the last few years, I am filling in the gaps before I post it on here. I have to make a few assumptions here and there, and I am agreeing with one of yours:-

As evidenced by the fact that the Lyneham Medical Centre & Bowling Alley were bulldozed in the same time period - it is clear that, as you say, the MoD washed their hands of the Comet, right up to the point of the events last week.

[samwright]

sagittarius is now just a cockpit and about 25 feet of forward fuselage resting at Boscombe museum.
Spilt milk maybe but we can do one more thing.Discover the chain of neglect,make public their names and shame them.the culprits might think they can hide behind the often used cloak, MOD spokesperson.
I have several FOI requests outstanding to nail the people who allowed this to happen.
If they can escape censure on this nothing else worth saving is safe whilst they remain in their posts

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Hi Sam

This name is in the public domain through the public tender

Dismantlement and relocation of Gate Guardian Comet C2 XK699 - Government Tenders, Government News and Information - Government Online (http://www.government-online.net/gate-guardian-comet-c2-xk699/)

Mr Ignacio Araujo

I'm guessing that he was the Project Officer for the disposal of the Comet, and when Cosford changed their minds, it remained his problem.

Another angle is that there was an EDM, and also a question in the house. I would be interested to know that if an MP asked a question (and was told that no decision had been made) would that MP expect to be kept informed?

SPHLC

[fergineer]

And sad news that the bowling alley has gone too. Suppose H's newspaper hut behind the bowl has gone too?

[l.garey]

All very sad.
In response to the posts last week about this being the only Mk 2, I might add that there is still the forward fuselage of XK655 at the Al Mahatta Museum in Sharjah. This is the first production Mk 2, G-AMXA, which was modified for ELINT at Marshall's (Mk R2), retired at Strathallan where it was damaged on landing, spent some time on display at Gatwick, and finally went to Sharjah in 2007. So an RAF Mk 2, but with a unique history, and in top condition, but only the front bit! A photo and some details at:

https://sites.google.com/site/lgarey/rafsharjah%2Calmahattamuseum

Laurence

[Proplinerman]

Photo of it there when it was whole, back in September 1976:

Comet at Strathallan Sept 1976 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48975048@N06/8355029840/in/photolist-dJiHhC-a9gonv/lightbox/)

[samwright]

Thanks SPLC,
not sure about Cosford info not wanting it.
Spoke with the boss there last week and he said they agreed to have it and had a storage facility lined up BUT could not afford to transport it.
Wonder if Ignacio Araujo was in post when EDM 1555 was placed in the commons ,if so he has had 3 years 4 months to put together a rescue plan.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Spoke with the boss there last week and he said they agreed to have it and had a storage facility lined up BUT could not afford to transport it.

That's quite a development, Sam !

In one stroke it indicates that it was about money, and not the corrosion.

Wonder if Ignacio Araujo was in post when EDM 1555 was placed in the commons ,if so he has had 3 years 4 months to put together a rescue plan.

I think probably not. The "Custodian" of the Comet, possibly right up to the closure of RAF Lyneham was an RAF Flt Lt Engineering Officer. This was the officer that announced in Spring 2011 that she had been saved and was going to be crated up at Shawbury

Edited to add:- It seems that the Custodianship of the Comet passed from the aforementioned Engineering Officer to a non-Engineering Officer (possibly Admin branch) before Lyneham closed.

I do know that Ignacio Araujo was "uncontactable" in the days leading up to the destruction of the Comet. For this alone, he has some explaining to do. And I'm not on about Joe Public here - I am talking about senior officers and ex-officers trying to get answers from him.

[Gerry Smyth]

The fwd fuselage of XK 699 is now @ Old Sarum albeit propped up on a scaffolding rig waiting for a permanent cradle to be made.
Any documentation, log books or/and maintenance manual's would be most welcome.


Boscombe Down Aviation Collection.
Hangar 1
Old Sarum
Salisbury. SP4 6DZ
Wiltshire.

[samwright]

All my questions on Comet xv699 have been answered by John Izzard, policy secretariat with the exception of the FOI question asking who gave authority for the aircraft to be sold knowing that most would be scrapped to raise cash to save the cockpit and forward 30 feet of fuselage.
This information is withheld IAW Section 40(personal information) in order to protect personal information.

[Jonzjob]

Comet II landing at Lyneham in 1957.
Does anyone else remember an incident that year when one 216 aircraft suffered multiple engine failures on T/O and managed to get take advantage of the fact that Lyneham sits about 100' above the surrounding terrain to pick up enough speed to stagger round the circuit effectively on one?
Great save as the Comet IV was being touted at the time and another Comet disaster would probably have been the end of that.



I am sorry to be so late coming onto both this thread and forum. I have only just found you! I was an aircraft eleky on the Comets and Brits from December 1961 to December 66. Most of the time on LSS with some on Base 1.

Scotbil, I saw that takeoff. I was working up by J1. I was outside and it was hammering it down with rain. I was talking to a couple of 'heavies' just before that and they told me that they had just fitted a new pair of nose wheels with a trial rain tyre on them. They were doing wet weather trials on them. It started its run and after a short while an engine spooled down. that caught my attention and I watched it closely from there. A short while on and a second spooled down and now it had my complete attention! Then a third spooled down a moment before rotate and it staggered up into the air. It was on runway 24 and had, as you said, the drop at the end. I think that saved it. He managed to relight the engines and did a safe landing but I'll bet he had a quick trouser change ! It was a Comet 2, no idea as to the number?

There was a right-off with a 2 as well when a heavy topped up the hydraulics with OX38. They used a vegetable oil and OX38 is a mineral oil! Not a popular bunny.

I am also the 'proud' carrier of 'Comet leg' too. For the uninitiated that was when you entered via the crew door, front starboard, and turned left through the luggage bay. Just a step or so and there was the forward equipment hatch. If that was open and you walked in from a nice sunny afternoon you didn't see it! One leg didn't quite reach the bay floor and the other leg bent up and stayed outside the hatch and the hole had a vertical ridge around it to locate the hatch. That cut right down to the bone. My mate in front of me, Doc Morten a Nat Service' eleky, wondered where the hell I'd gone when he turned around and I wasn't there. I couldn't move because I was laughing too much! Strange what you do sometimes, but it was so silly...

[scotbill]

Scotbil, I saw that takeoff. I was working up by J1. I was outside and it was hammering it down with rain. I was talking to a couple of 'heavies' just before that and they told me that they had just fitted a new pair of nose wheels with a trial rain tyre on them. They were doing wet weather trials on them. It started its run and after a short while an engine spooled down. that caught my attention and I watched it closely from there. A short while on and a second spooled down and now it had my complete attention! Then a third spooled down a moment before rotate and it staggered up into the air. It was on runway 24 and had, as you said, the drop at the end. I think that saved it. He managed to relight the engines and did a safe landing but I'll bet he had a quick trouser change ! It was a Comet 2, no idea as to the number?

Thank you for that. I've always assumed that it must have been fuel contamination but your account suggests it could have been water from the nosewheel wave putting the fire out.

On the Trident there was a 'skim' T/o procedure on contaminated runways where the nosewheel was lifted off at about 80 knots to avoid the bow-wave entering the engines. Can't remember whether there was a similar procedure on the Comet 4B - but the nosewheel was bit further from the engines compared to Comet 2s.

PS On reflection, I think the photo I posted in 2011 must have been on T/O, judging from the flap position - but it was a long time ago!