PPL Rental with public cat a/c

[poetpilot]

A question......

Let's say I have acquired a nice little tailwheel aeroplane with a Public Cat C oF A on it. I'm a PPL, not an instructor and I don't have an AOC.

I then get an offer to hangar and operate my aircraft from a private strip, unlicensed and unattended.

I then want to make some money with my aeroplane - or at least justify the expense of running it by making some money back on it.

Can I legally rent it out to other PPLs who are suitably qualified, so that they can fly it in and out of the strip? Note that these would not be co-owners, simply renters.

Further, it's a tailwheel aircraft, so if they have not flown tailwheel before, can they get checked & signed off for tailwheel by an instructor or examiner using my aircraft from an unlicenced strip?

Let's assume that it is insured for any PPL/instructor on the policy...

[Hairyplane]

A mate of mine does this - he rents new DR400 to a flying school. He set up a business to administer it for him.

If you are buying new then there is certainly an opportunity to claim back some of the VAT, provided you are VAT registered of course.

However, there is a sting.

If you want to make a small fortune out of aviation, start with a big one.

For a start - get yourself an insurance quote for 'Hire & Reward'.

I think you'll find it will double your premiums, especially if it isn't one of the easier types (Robin for example).

Secondly - how do you charge. Honesty? Forget it. Hobbs? We've all seen them taxying much too fast just to get the aircraft parked and shut down (shock cooling? Whats all that about...??)

We've also overheard them saying - if I'm paying on the Hobbs, I'm going at full chat everywhere. (more scope for a wrecked shock-cooled motor).

Tacho? Maybe.

Unless you know them really well, the aircraft will suffer.

If you know them that well, consider a (max 4) syndicate. Much cheaper and less stressful than hiring out.

Sorry to paint a bad picture but I do know several other people that hire their aircraft out. They don't make much money at it, if anything, by the time everything is taken into account. Their aircraft are also hacked. You won't believe some of the stories.

My Robin is on Public - I wouldn't dream of hiring it out to anybody. By the same token, my good mates ( no current vacancies!) fly it for free.

My advice - keep it to yourself or syndicate it.

HP

[Flyin'Dutch']

PP,

No need for licenced airfield to hire out an aircraft.

As long as it is on Public Transport C of A you can fly it anywhere.

Otherwise you would not be able to fly with anything you hire to anything else than licenced fields.

Would that not be a terrible shame for a nice and shiny whit and red tailwheel aeroplane?

It loves playing with its mates at all sorts of lovely (unlicenced) strips (or so I have heard!)

;)

FD

[poetpilot]

Thanks FD :ok:

It was just something that somebody said to me that had me worried for a momento. And I couldn't find anything on the CAA website that helped clarify it either.

Regarding t'other risks noted by Hairyplane.... Yup I agree and note what you say. It can turn out bad, but the key lies in finding the right places and the right people to rent to (like FD.... :cool: )

I already lease a 172 to a decent & responsible flying club, and so far (touch aluminium), a year on, it's more or less going according to plan - that is, not an amazing income by any means but a small return on the capital outlay. I do stipulate that the aircraft is not used for ab initio training - it's for PPL hire and trial lessons only. That reduces some of the "hammer" factor.

Oh yes and the little taildragger will be rented on tacho time.

The 172 is leased on a dry rate and the club charge punters on chock to chock time.

[Dunc]

Poet

My planes are hired out and Insured through Hayward. My premium is very reasonable considering there are no min hour requirements or dual checks or currency requirments. There are nice pilots out there, but then my glass is allways half full.

Very best of luck.

[poetpilot]

Ah - a fellow optimist Dunc !

Thanks for that - I've been in touch with Haywards, very reasonabubble quote I thought.

[IO540]

poetpilot

The answer is Yes (I am not a lawyer!) but -

You need it to be insured at least for "Club Use" and yes Haywards will know all about that. Make a full disclosure of the intended usage, and discuss minimum qualification for any prospective renter. I suggest you go to them direct and NOT via any of the numerous brokers advertising in the press most of whom in turn subcontract it to Haywards.

If you end up with about 4 or less regular renters, and don't want any more, then a "named pilots" policy will be a lot cheaper.

If you own the plane personally, and somebody wrecks somebody's house with it, then you are personally liable (jointly) and if for some reason the insurer does not pay up, you are well stuffed! In this case, limited company ownership is worth considering; the separation thus achieved also helps with VAT issues. There are other matters to consider, too many to detail here now.

Regarding pilot qualification, the insurer may require you to verify any renter's qualification. As a minimum this would be license and logbook inspection, which some people are likely to resent (I speak from experience on this one, obviously if you get that attitude then they need to go elsewhere) but most likely you may want/need to do a check flight, or perhaps many check flights, and consider the possibility that some people who are presently friends of yours may not qualify...

As to whether you want others to fly your plane, that's for you to consider. Be extremely selective!!

[max roll rate]

dam sounds like ive lost me fav hack already and its only been back a week !

[poetpilot]

aaaaw I'm really, sincerely sorry max, but it has to pay for its keep somehow.

I promise to bring it back down if we can arrange certain weekends for it. Can tie in with me visiting me mum in Hemel Hempstead ! With a little organisation, I'm sure it will be possible to do it every now and then.

Flyin' Dutch has also just got himself a share in another a/c, and he was a regular renter of it at TW. So it would have been even quieter on the booking sheets.

Having flown it now for about 5 hours in the last few days, I can appreciate why you like it so much. It's a little cracker.

:ok: :ok:

[Evo]

It's not -HP, is it?

[poetpilot]

Affirm Evo. From your location, I assume you are a disappointed person from Goodwood?

[Evo]

Yeah :( my first bit of taildragging - an 'experience' for someone raised on PA28s. I had just stopped alarming myself (well, most of the time!) and was starting to enjoy it. Very nice aeroplane. :ok:

[poetpilot]

Yup, pretty much in lurv with it myself.:ok:

It's now earning its keep at Liverpool with Liverpool Flying School/Keenair. BUT -

If anyone wants to organise a w/e's worth of bookings through me, I can bring it down for a w/e, or you could arrange somewhere a bit more norf if you can...

I'll need to factor the LFS margin in, so it needs a good dollop of bookings to make it worthwhile, cos there's the ferrying too (though I can visit friends whilst I'm there of course + enjoy the flying meself - so I get some benefits). The wet rate through LFS is £89.50 p.h. , which is cheaper than it was at Vectair ISTR... Say £99 ph wet to cover part of the ferry expenses.

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