Cathay pilots have got no balls!

[amos2]

When are you lot going to do something about the poor sods who lost their jobs a while back! What is it?...2,3 years ago?

Lots of rhetoric and no action whatsoever!

You should all be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves!

What a bunch of gutless wonders!!!!

[Fly747]

The time was then. Now forget and get on with life!

[amos2]

...and, what a great response that was!

****** you jack, I'm alright!!

as I said, what a bunch of gutless wonders!!

[Cpt. Underpants]

Take a deep breath, take another swig of your XXXX and read your PM's. Fishing takes patience and a cleverly disguised piece of bait. Your message has neither.

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

amos got done over in the '89 pilots stoush. take no notice of the bitter little man. hey aimee - i got balls, I came up here 18 months ago in the middle of a so called "recruitment ban" which has since been dropped. i took the midnight phone calls, abusive letters in the mail etc,. but WHO CARES. i got a good job, good money and a lifetime career. and you know the best thing - i don't have have to join that ****** out union any more 'cause they don't like we replacement drivers. Sh!t - i'm crying all the way to the BANK !!!! tell me now who has the BALLs !!
PS = you'll get over '89 one of these days pal. like the AOA up here - it's ONLY A MATTER OF TIME !!!:{ :{ :ok: ;)

[amos2]

Well, I guess that says it all!!...

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

you betta believe it old boy !

[CDM]

AMOS2 - Just wondering what would you recommend the AOA do or should have done wrt "the poor sods who lost their jobs."? With your experience in Industrial Relations surely you must have some sound advice for them. Hope it doesn't involve them all resigning!
However, I do agree the effect of "the ban" was No Action and No result.

[Wizofoz]

Actually Amos, I think the AOA took a leaf out of your lots book. They managed to turn a lot of people into scape goats for their own **** *ps, thus deflecting any blame from themselves.

Should sound familiar to you...

[pontius's pa]

Even I am offended by Sub-Sonic Missing Brain's post. (That's a first)

Can it be that he did not even have the ability to take any sort of promotion so he could not snatch the pay of a 49er.

He must be one of the few.

Incidently, since you had not noticed, Severe Acute Respitory Synrome has almost disappeared in Hong Kong.

Stupid And Repulsive Statements (sorry best I could manage at this time of night), however, seem to be live and well.

Compsing this has made me increasingly angry,. I am not much given to emotional reaction but this post makes light of an illness that severely affected our community so I am just about to hit the button the says report this post to a moderator.

[Jetdriver]

Theres always one that is going to overstep the mark when these threads start to outdo the previous post in hostility. I have applied the necessary edits to achieve what I hope will trip this thread back on track. If it doesn't work I will lock it !

[Sub-Sonic MB]

It seems the "sensitivity" of PP's missing intellect is fragile indeed.
Grow up son.
One can only wonder at the intellect of a "moderator", who would pull a post which, looked at in comparison, could be no more offensive than the one TSI placed gloating about the job he was happy to steal from a 49er.
So perhaps the moderator is one of the 400 who could not care less about colleagues with whom they share a cockpit.
If so, he/she should be more than thoroughly ashamed of his/herself.
The CX pilots ought to learn from history and that means '89, and stick together, or you will be inundated by the likes of TSI, whose enormous brain will always remain at its pinhead size.

[amos2]

It just so happens that I saw Sub Sonics post before PP became so overcome with emotion that he had to hit the foul button.

Actually it seems PP was so distraught that he even had problems remembering how to spell!

Sub Sonics post was hard hitting and well written I thought, with a lashing of irony, but I guess that depends on which direction one is coming from. It certainly did not warrant censoring!

Anyway, I thought Pruners could cut the mustard and handle the heat, but not all of us apparently. Perhaps PP is boxing out of his division here!

:rolleyes:

[Wizofoz]

Sub Sonic,

I would have thought that if there was a lesson from '89 it was that strategies which involve others taking the fall for you don't work.

Exactly how successful was the ban in putting pressure on the company?

Is the AOA better or worse off now there are several hundred Cathay pilots ineligible for membership?

It's all very well saying it would have worked "IF". If my uncle had T**** he'd be my Aunty. You didn't want to risk your own positions (or, God forbid! Turn down a promotion opportunity in this company you despise so much!) So you put the onus on outsiders, and now are all amazed and hurt that an awful lot of people didn't buy it.

Another thread suggests the court cases are starting to come in favour of the 49ers. Let's hope so. This seems to be the only potentially fruitful line the AOA is prepared to follow, as any other might actually involve putting THEMSELVES on the line in support of their fellows.

[Sub-Sonic MB]

Wizo, a lesson in logic (and spelling) seems in order for you.

[Wizofoz]

Subo,

Spelling fixed.

Awaiting your enlightenment re my logic, or indeed any from you!

[Jetdriver]

Subsonic MB,

When a post is reported to a moderator it is usually looked at to see if the complaint is valid ! This is part of the process of scrolling through perhaps 200 posts a day. Some forums are given a wider degree of latitude particularly the regional ones which tend to be populated by smaller groups of "professionals".

If a complaint arises from whatever source and is upheld either on what has been posted or the trend of the thread then it can be closed, transferred to the admin forum or in this case left to run. Sometimes a subject will naturally be emotive rather than willfully offensive and it was to this conclusion that the post was removed and the thread continued.

"one can wonder at the intellect of a moderator" if one wishes to. The moderator is not making any comparisons of offensiveness but has decided your post oversteps the mark. The moderator is not "one of the 400 who could not care less about colleagues with whom (they) share a cockpit", as such the moderator is not "thoroughly ashamed of his/herself" In fact the moderator doesn't really understand what you are insinuating and therefore choses to ignore it.

In summary this thread is clearly of interest to many. Please argue your point as you see fit but do not resort to what may be perceived as offensive remarks I am sure your own wit can be applied to that requirement.

[FlexibleResponse]

As it turns out...yesterday marked the second anniversary of the sacking of the Cathay Pacific 49ers by management for "for no particular reason". The members of the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers' Association voted again yesterday to continue the financial support for the 49ers and their families.

Not such a bad level of integrity, commitment, loyalty and resilience for a so-called "bunch of gutless wonders"?

[shortly]

I guess it makes some point that the members of the AOA are still supporting those 49ers remaining at need. I am not sure what that point is, and I am certain that it is not really helping those 49ers get on with their lives. Whatever the outcomes of the cases OS it is extremely unlikely that there will be any re-instatement. We don't want to get back into the mire of why and where, you would still have us believe that the AOA were lily white and the Company acted without provocation and for no reason arbirarily sacked 50 odd personnel that it (the company) had paid a fortune to train. Keep repeating the same lies and they become truth.

[Cpt. Underpants]

Shorts, I agree with most of what you say, especially Keep repeating the same lies and they become truth

Goes both ways, I guess. The law will decide who was wrong and who was right, who is lying and whose halo is not "Made In China".

My money is on the AOA.

[Wizofoz]

Flex,

Do the 49 AOA members who took the 49er's jobs by accepting promotions pay an extra levy?

Wouldn't it spread the load a bit more if you 'fessed up that the ban was pointless and let the new joiners into the AOA?

[amos2]

Well,this is something new!

Is there a ban on new pilots joining Cathay joining the pilots union?

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

sub sonic MB (aka - the walking contradiction):confused:


The CX pilots ought to learn from history and that means '89, and stick together,.........

the problem was the AFAP pilot group didn't stick together. most ran off overseas when the action started and left the inexperienced to do the fighting. as for the pussies up here that took commands off their fellow '49's...i gotta go with aimee on this one-- NO BALLS!

now i suggest you go back to your history books, and when you get your facts straight we'll let you back into the MEN'S Club!!

[Wizofoz]

Amos,

People who joined under the ban are ineligable for HKAOA membership. Not new, it's been the case since day one almost two years ago. Strange that you should start a thread (and then THRILL us with you witty (:yuk: ) one liners) when you obviously know SFA about the subject.

[Sub-Sonic MB]

TSi - Let me refer to you as junior - as you are clearly immature - the facts are simple - you intimate you were happy to snap a 49er's job.
Junior - there will always be fools like you around, decent pilots simply have to put up with it.
However, the education from '89 is not as you wish to portray, inaccurate as usual from then likes of you, but simply that pilots who stick together make managements take notice.
That is why managments try, and sometimes succeed, to fragment pilots into individuals like you, who rush in for the quick return, without a care for the big picture meaning the future of the profession.
Until you realise that, then you will always remain immature.
Grow up junior.

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

sub sonic MB - call me what you like, but YOU will not get admission into the MEN'S Club until you face the facts. it was not i or any of my mates that took the '49's command slots. i was happy to abide by the ban until i realised that YOU and your mates were prepared to shaft the '49's by taking their command positions.

now go back, study the case history and when you can do the mature thing and admit the recruitment ban was futile, you will no longer be regarded A PUSSY with no balls!.

regards from JUNIOR :ok:

[Sub-Sonic MB]

Still loose with the truth I see, junior.
Keep working on it, you'll get it one day.

[shortly]

CU, I am not the least bit surprised to see the faith you place in the Judicial systems. sort of goes with your persona. From my perspective both sides are at fault and no amount of legal tickling is going to fix what is now ancient history.

[BusyB]

TSI, Your economy with the truth does you no credit. More than 50% of the 49'ers were not Captains so you're obviously happy to take their jobs. The only reason you don't want AOA members to take commands is obviously because you'd be frightened of flying with them. Perhaps your standards aren't high enough. How many 49'ers have you spoken to about the merits of an upgrade ban? None, I suspect because you're spouting such C**p.

Shortly, You do seem upset about the legal action, don't you want to see justice served?

[Wizofoz]

Would any '49er care to comment as to whether there should have been an upgrade ban as well?

[BuzzBox]

I'm afraid I can no longer tolerate the immature rantings of TSI. Son, the tone of your posts on PPRUNE proves that you are nothing more than an arrogant buffoon with an overinflated opinion of yourself. The worst legacy of the recruitment ban is that Cathay Pacific was forced to lower its standards and employ idiots such as yourself in order to put bodies in seats. You may believe your colleagues have no balls, but at least they are professionals. GROW UP.

[Ajax]

No Buzzbox you're wrong ...

The worst legacy of the recruitment ban, is threads like this one ... neatly proving to all and sundry that the CX pilot body is now deeply, bitterly divided, and the level of discussion amongst presumably intelligent adults on both sides of the ban has been reduced to making immature comments about who's got the biggest testes. Gee that sort of talk is going to go a looong way towards solving the problems CX pilots are facing right now, and for the next generation.

Management must be just loving it they've got the AOA and non-union pilots exactly where they want them. Sort of like two dogs fighting in a pit ... so busy with your fangs buried in each other's throats, that you totally don't realize that if you could just raise your eyes out of your pit and focus on your masters, you could still, even now, jump out and bite the crooks that are running the show.

Fat chance of that happening while you guys are fighting like cats in a sack over who did what. It's OVER. Why don't you try something radical and start talking to each other, working together, all of you, think about what the next move is going to be, do something proactive rather than reactive for a change? Or would you rather all just sit there bickering like schoolkids for another few months and wait for management to find another excuse to shove the broomstick in another couple of notches?

It may be hard to swallow but you AOA guys need the new joiners on your side now, and believe it or not you new joiners could do worse than actually starting to talk to the union guys and trying to do something constructive to secure your futures. There once was a tradition of CX pilots being the best in the world and proud of it, showing everyone else how it was done. It could still be done again. Even now.

[shortly]

Dear BB. Yes I want to see justice served. But do I think the legal/judicial system gives a fig about justice? Of course they don't, they will only differentiate on matters of law not justice. Indeed any solicitor will assure you that this is the case. No pun intended. I would feel better about the legal cases if I felt they would affect anything tangible in the longer term. They won't, at best the results will make everything worse for all. Whoever wins there will be two sets of losers.

[Sub-Sonic MB]

Ajax - the foaming cleanser.
Reminds me of a 1960's TV ad.
But that context is the issue, as it was black and white.
Get united, and you will get somewhere.
Go with junior, and you will have management salivating.
They know it.
You know it.
The CX pilots are second to none.
But do not pretend your are at the head of heap industrially if you do not stick together.

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

oh phulleeeeeze Sub Sonic get real. we wanted to join the AOA but they wouldn't have us. i would still be willing to join but don't think that will happen with the likes of you and BuzzBox running the show. and while we are on the subject of replacement drivers. we were employed and required the same qualifications as you silvertails, so don't cr@p on about Cathay lowering their recruiting standards. the only difference was we were not prepared to be intimidated by a recruitment ban put in place by a misguided and naive union leadership who were prepared to sit back and let command upgrades take place, but considered it poor form for new joiners to replace the positions left from those who took the upgrades from the '49's - disgraceful !

[BusyB]

Shortly, I guess when you say both sides will be worse off you're meaning CX and the AOA. You seem to be forgetting that the 49'ers are still represented by the AOA and if they get any recompense through the courts for their financial losses and character assasination they cannot be worse off. Yes, its ashame that lawyers have to get involved and increase everybodies costs but that is the position we are left in.

TSI thanks for confirming that your hypocrisy enables you to replace a 49 F/O.JFO or SO.

[amos2]

Do you get the impression that TSI is a real loser?!

[laury]

BusyB,
"the only reason you dont want AOA members to take commands is obviously because you'd be frightened of flying with them"

You must be away with the fairies. You have to try and find some argument dont you. Be real!!

You spout cr..p.

Taking command slots is a blatant set of double standards. There is no two ways about it.

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

hey aimee

Do you get the impression that TSI is a real loser?!

as i said to sub sonic MB, you can call me what you like but i am not the one crying in my beer about something that happened over 13 years ago! :sad: :sad: :sad:

[BusyB]

Laury, My reply was specific to TSI due his total hypocrisy. If you want to talk fairies thats your privilege.
As far as upgrades of any sort went, the AOA, with the 49'ers input, decided that they were acceptable to keep the balance of AOA and non-AOA pilots within each category for reasons that should be obvious to anyone with a grain of sense. This has all been done to death on Fragrant Harbour in the past and anyone who wants to know more only has to search!. I, personally accept that people will have differing opinions but sometimes one cannot help but rise when abusive idiots start spouting drivel.

[Wizofoz]

As far as upgrades of any sort went, the AOA, with the 49'ers input, decided that they were acceptable to keep the balance of AOA and non-AOA pilots within each category

Except second officer (or freighter FO) it would seem...

That would have to be the most incredible piece of rationalisation I have ever heard!!!

[shortly]

To be quite frank BusyB I fail to see how the AOA can get much worse off (as an industrial force) than they are right at this moment. They are in honesty a Club for longer term serving CX pilots with little or no relevance as to their true function. Yes they organise a good insurance (ha ha), or maybe not. They have got an excellent technical representation and attend all sorts of technical forums with good result. They have got some very bright young pilots in their group who are slowly but surely becoming sidelined from affairs at CX. Pity that. The decisions the AOA has made over a long period of time has significantly affected the situation of us all at CX in a very adverse fashion. There is no doubt that most of these decisions were made for the wrong reasons, a lot of emotion and little substance. There are hidden agendas on both sides of the fence and the 49ers are the result. I do feel for the 49ers but am more glad it was not 149ers. Come and get me pit bulls.

[411A]

Noticed the 'laury' and couldn't help remembering...


Laury K.....now there was a piece of work.
When he retired from CX long ago, he went to SQ for a two year contract.
A few of the younger SQ First Officers mentioned that it was not nice flying with him...never mentioned why.

A deserved reputation perhaps?

[HotDog]

Ah yes, Laurie K Chief Pilot was a very hard task master,to say the least.

[Traffic]

Eer Lad,

At least in SQ he didn't have the time, nor was he given a whistle, and a pocket full of yellow and red cards with which to impose his will and destroy perfectly competent peoples' lives.

As the old adage goes ....every inch a king and every foot a ruler.

[HotDog]

Eer lad, you make your turn over the Kowloon Magistracy, you understand?

For Haneda RW16, eyeball the "chimenies" and you'll see the "runaway".

[411A]

Hmmm, another one at SQ, Sam D...(rhymes with God) never let the young F/O's use sunglasses.
Landing on Rny 07 in SYD in the early morning ain't pleasent without 'em. Made no difference to this guy however.

Where do some get these strange ideas, I wonder?

Personally just let the young guys do the job, without a big hassle all the time.

[Traffic]

411A

I think you mean Ken D....and there was an S on the end.

[411A]

Traffic,

Yes, that name rings a bell as well.

Sam was a different kettle of fish altogether, ex-BA I think. Stayed about 5 years as I recall.

On the flip side, there were a few (many) ex-BA guys that were very well liked by all.

[BusyB]

Shortly, You still haven't got the point. How can the 49'ers be worse off by taking legal action??

[laury]

411A,

You have the wrong person. But talking about undesirable characters, I have heard you are not much chop on the flight deck.
Retraining recently sound familliar?

[BlueEagle]

OK Ladies and Gents, an interesting thread so let's keep it going but without getting into the personal stuff please!

The Post, not the Poster:ok:

Thanks,

BlueEagle - Moderator.

[411A]

laury,

Don't be silly. All folks mentioned are long before your time...circa 1970's...:ooh:

Looking at the present situation at CX, really do think it's time the CX management made a better faith effort at resolving differences with the AOA.

And vice versa.

Will it happen I wonder?

[Desert Digger]

Stick together boys and girls. (Nothwithstanding the header).
All you out of the AOA - get back in.
Show 'em you've got The Right Stuff!
DD

[Horst Schmitt]

It is very interestink zat Trüßeeker International vill break za union ban und zen vant to join it.

You must be one very confused young mann TSI.
Und you need to look at yourselve in ze mirror and see ze reflection of a scap, bekaus if you had vaited für only a little langer you could haf join-ed CX as a non-scap.

As zer are only relatifly few of you TSI, you vill forever schtick out like a pea on a pümpkin.
Ze managers haf made you look stüpid - ein Pimmelkopf - Trüßeeker International, ünd you mein freund are ze vone zat müßt live vis zat for alle of ze rest of your life vis CX!

[amos2]

Hmmm!...correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Horse is trying to tell us he doesn't like scabs!

[flyingkiwi]

Horse shi!@#

Can you please explain in clear terms how we were meant to delay our entrance into CX when the recruitment personel says this is your start date start then or never.... that is the phone call i had .. i tried to delay but in the end it cam down to either joining then or give up my career.

as for AOA members .......not even turning down upgrades when it says quite clearly in the COS that you can do so with no reprocusions to your career.. tell me why that isnt hypocritical.

Also what is the AOA doing for those that turned down the jobs. Are you offering to pay there saleries from you pocket because i doubt they will ever get one from CX.

As for living with it, i personally am enjoying my time and the crews i fly with, I have not had any harasment at all and am enjoy many beers with the crews on the lay overs.

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

don't worry about what old Fritz has to say Kiwi, you and I know we made the right decision and we have a good job, good pay and an excellent career path. most of the AOA guys I have become aquainted with in the past 18 months agree the ban was futile and the AOA has lost a lot of support over it from the members.:ok:

[HotDog]

Flying Kiwi, I've got you down for a gift of an English dictionary for Christmas.:)

[flyingkiwi]

Cheers.

Put the Fritz down for a german one too.:D

edited for spelling, the dictionary has arrived already

[Horst Schmitt]

Vell vell, ze are komingk out of der voodvork like ze vorms ze are, ja.
Trüßeeker International I vill ask you a simple question - bekaus you seem like a simple person. Vhy vould ze HKAOA vant you und ze ozzer vorms to join anyvay? Veilleicht - perhaps you müß habe ein very short memory, aber I vill refresh it fur you.
YOU und ze ozzers broke ze ban to join ze CX - und ja, ze standards vere dropped ozervise zey cannot get so many airmen. Zey vere scraping ze barrel und ze pilots daß zey took in ze ban period are zose scraps.
Ach so - you habe already broken ze ban of ze HKAOA, you kan never be trusted as a HKAOA member für zat reason....never.
Ist zat simple enough even für you Trüßeeker International.

[jungly]

Is that German or Afrikaans?

TSI - you do put yourself out on a limb! But funnier still would be being lectured on morals and ethics by the Germans or Afrikaans. Priceless!

As for lowering the standards Horst von Schmitt von Pork Knuckle - the facts are irrefutable. CX have never hired such experienced operators as they have in the last 2years. But you probably turned up with 9000hrs jet transport too!?

When you get emotive and all teary eyed...'dont let the facts get in the way of a good story...or some goose-stepping propaganda?'

;)

& before someone starts bleating about me giving the Afrikaans or Boxheads a hard time - Im not - I just think its funny....oh, and I am part German!

[flyingkiwi]

HS.
We assume you are from SA so we wont mention the rugby..

watch this space, rumor has it that letters are already being sent out to those that joined asking them to join the AOA, question is will they want to join...

Your comment about them dropping the standards is hardly worth commenting about, show some proof of that, have a look at the percentage of applicants that missed out, I bet you will find it is just the same as pre 49ers.

I know of many fine folks that were knocked back during this time.

[fire wall]

I know of 1 Red Arrows Pilot, 1 767 Captain, 2 767 FO's, 1 1011 Captain, 1 747.200 FO, 2 737 Captains and 4 737 FO's that joined under the supposed ban.....this is in comparison to the Cessna/Beechcraft/ and Embraher pilots who filled the majority of the recruitment ranks as 2nd officers in previous years.
Scraping the bottom of the barrel.......well certainly doesn't look that way on the face of it so I decided to have a chat to a couple of the sim instructors and they report that the amount of sim time required to complete the curriculum was on average below what has been required on previous intakes.
Combine this with the current concern re the lack of experience of our senior FO's and it begs the question who is spinning a web of deceit.

[jtr]

fire wall
Not trying to start a pizzing comp., but to be a SF/O you have to have a minimum of 5 years RHS widebody time. Lack of experience?:hmm:

[Horst Schmitt]

Der personality of ein applicant ist not determined by ze type of aicraft daß he flügen, und ze nümmer of hours, dümkopfs.

Und zat zey took ze less time in simulator should be so - ja? It müß be bekaus zey haben more exposure befor.
Aber, vot makes a mann a mann ist was ist inside, und his respekt für fellow human beings.

Ich bin nicht Suid Afrikaner.

[Liam Gallagher]

JTR

What you say is bolleaux.............

and well done to Horst Schmitt, you got the young ones bitting a treat!!:ok:

[jtr]

Liam, I will check my maths...

Lets see, its 9 months as a JFO, then year 1,2,3,4 as an F/O... oh yeah you are right, its a minimum of 4 years 9 months in the RHS of a widebody to be a SF/O.

Sorry about that Liam, looks like I made a complete kant of myself by typing before thinking.:}

[Liam Gallagher]

JTR,

me thinks a few of the lads you are jousting with are ex-military; so try this,

join ASL in 99, sign Integration Agreement end-of 99. Transfer from Classic to 400 in 01 immediately as Relief SFO. Then across to the pax fleet as Relief in 02. Now in 03 doing Command Course on Classic.....so that is command inside 5 years!!

Good luck to Moose...top bloke....keep dodging those bullets.

Even quicker to S/FO for the freighter guys now as the 400F expands as the next wave of integration takes place later in 03

[jtr]

Thanks for the clarification Punchy, and even though I admit knowing SFA about fr8trs, I will be surprised if you tell me it is anything other than 4 years as an F/O till one becomes S F/O, and hence my statement...

"to be a SF/O you have to have a minimum of 5 years RHS widebody time. Lack of experience?"

If on the other hand, the debate is about Command experience, I will just sit back and watch thanks
http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/cwm/3dlil/sleep.gif

[Liam Gallagher]

JTR,

I think Firewall's original point about SFO's really referred to the quality of Relief Commanders; a point often made in the company. There is no requirement to have any number of years experience to be a Relief Commander.

Many pilots know SFA about Freighter Integration and I give you credit for admitting it, however your ignorance could be to your detriment as people join after you with more/similar/less experience but pick up Relief or Commands before you and you wont know why, or wont be aware that a timely email from yourself could have protected your position.

[jtr]

5x5.. was beginning to suspect it may have been semantics.

SF/O vs Relief F/O etc.

The experience level is a topic that is bought up time to time on the Pax fleets too it seems.

Fortunately I am not in a position to be bypassed by any of the agreements that were made, however I see your point, and if I knew of any "timely email" that would have delayed RC, I would have been over it like a rash.

Good on the guys doing a frt command with 4 years in the jet. Can be likened to pax f/o's who joined as S/O and have done 4 years in the RHS also.
Sadly that dark pilot side in some comes out when they see someone 8 years younger, and 5 years more senior (list wise) getting a run at command. Can't speak for the fr8tr, but on the pax fleet I think it is fair to say, if you make the grade, you make the grade!

No point stressing, there will always be someone youger, faster, better looking, smarter, more senior, etc etc. Just give yourself an ulcer thinking about it too much.

[Liam Gallagher]

may be of interest to some.

I was on the Freighter and now RHS on the pax 400. Consequently, I regularly listen to someone on the flight deck talking nonsense about the freighter. Given up trying to correct them, (why rain on their parade), however it is sad when it is a younger guy who is limiting his options.

The company's position is that the Freighter command course holds as much weight as the pax command course. How true this is shall be revealed later this year when the first of the mainline F/Os who took commands on the Freighter come back to the pax fleet. Interestingly, some of them were fairly junior when they went across, but they will be on year 3 or 4 Capt's pay when they come back; guys senior to them will be on year 1 or 2. No question of jumping seniority or any clandestine activity, just a guy who did his homework and sent a timely email and now reaping the benefit.

SFO/Relief Commander seems to be a goal of yours (each to their own :rolleyes) Equally, those who join the 400Freighter (and a lot are joining) will get their Relief fairly quickly, 12-24 months. When they come across to the pax fleet, hopefully after 3 years, they will carry the Relief tick with them. Jumping seniority, no......just making the best of the system.

Back to the main topic, the ban etal, Cathay is a very political company. The career path is varied and changing. Do your homework and make your choice. Ulcer material, possibly,...however if you get stressed about career altering decisions, you are in the wrong job and certainly in the wrong company!! :}

[jtr]

Liam, am sure you are well and truly over all of the frt fleet bashing, however you have to appreciate that some (most) of it comes from the knee jerk reaction when the whole frt issue was forced upon us. Stole my command etc. etc. becomes tedious after a while, so it is easier to throw rocks at the safety and standards issues.

The HKG guys who took a frt command early are not going to come out ahead ($) no matter how you look at it.
Those who did it off a base, maybe so, havent bothered to do the maths as it doesnt affect me.

Wasnt aware that the first PAX to FRT guy (SYD base right?) is past his three year point for coming off the base, and returning to the pax fleet, but yeh, it will be interesting.SFO/Relief Commander seems to be a goal of yours
Not sure if this is directed at me but if so you have missed the mark a bit??

Cant believe it is page 5 of the thread and name calling has barely reached raised voice level so far!:ouch:

[Liam Gallagher]

JTR,

The freighter bashing has always been easy to deal with because it said more about the person doing the bashing than the issues; as you say it was forced upon us all. Which I would say has parallels to the ban.

What bewilders me is the number of junior guys who are oblivious to how the Seniority/Freighter/Pax blend is working. Whilst it may be of no interest to them, their contempories are moving to and very soon back from the freighter. Further, I think the freighters are now up to 12 aircraft, which represents a large chunk of opportunity within the company.

The first Freighter captain returning is on a Man base. The first tranche were mostly European based on pax fleet and picked up a European base on the classic. I think there is only 1 Syd based Capt.

The HK$ value is probably not relevant because who considers their life in terms of maximising their receipt of HK$; if you did you wouldn't be a pilot!! That said, being 2-3 increments ahead in the Capt. pay stakes for the next 15 years is not insignificant. Basings and aircraft type were big considerations.

The amazing thing about this thread is the number of guys who fell for old Horse Sh!t; I would say they were gullible, however I can't as the word gullible doesn't appear in any English dictionary.

[Schrodingers Cat]

As my friend albert e stated, 'everything is relative, ja?'. When CX was expanding from the L1011 to more 747-2/3s there were ex harrier mates with not enough time to satisfy the CAD command requirements of 3000 hours after 18 months! Flying max hours per month on the Tri jet before the command course just got them in. These guys are now senior chaps in the Co. one of them very senior with EZ......
It's not the seniority that counts, it's the qualities of the guy the seniority is attached to, but that's what this thread is all about........:rolleyes:

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

....and what qualities would a guy have who would take a command upgrade knowing it was the position of a fellow mate who was sacked for no reason other than being associated with a union ?

you got an answer for that one Fritzy ?:rolleyes:

[BusyB]

TSI,
Your record is stuck!!

..and if he takes an upgrade with the sacked persons approval how does he compare with one who takes the job against th sacked persons wishes??

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

Liam Gallagher (bit cheeky using that name) use the word gullible 'til the cows come home mate. Collins dictionary - very english , Old Chap! defines gullible as easily imposed on, credulous. sounds a bit like FRITZ:D

BB the only record stuck around here is the union's poor record on industrial relations within the pilot group at Cathay....saaavee old chap?

you've been a bit quite of late Fritz...tucking into a piece of choice pork knuckle and schnapz at the local Haufbreaur are we?

[Horst Schmitt]

Ach Trüßeeker, vhy are you such ein Pimmelkopf?

Ze bann vas NICHT on üpgrade, it vas on INTAKE - Gött im Himmel, Schweinhünd!!
I said to you befor zat you are ein simple personen - vhy müß you alvays continue to prove it!!

Und ze namen of ze bier ist Höffbrauer, Dümkopf.

Zey certainly lowered ze standard for you to get in Trüßeeker!

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

ahhh Fritzy....come on in spinner :ok: :ok: :hmm:

[HotDog]

Horst, Du bist wirklich ein Wixer. Dein Deutchglish ist uberhaupt nicht witzig. So bitte, mund halten bis auswachsen! Vielen gruss,HD.

[amos2]

Couldn't agree more/less!!

[Horst Schmitt]

Und ihnen auch, mein Amerikaner Freund!
Sie müß Deutsch studiert mitt ein Lehrer bitte, bis später, wann sie kanst gut Deutsch sprechen, pass auf!
HS

[amos2]

Well, we're really getting into the heavy stuff now!!

[Harbour Rat]

Is it me or is there really more activity on this Forum that Cprune?

[laury]

HS


Of course those sacked would support the upgrades. They had to support you before you would support them.
You talk of lowering standards. You are a typical pilot w...nker who thinks he is something special. Stop dreaming and thinking that you are of some high standard. Your comments show your true colours.
Why is it that everyone in the company questions the actions of the union re the ban.
Why is it that everyone outside CX questions it.
Just have a think about it. There cant be that many people with the wrong idea.
Come on shoot me down and tell me I am simple. You are a minority and that is the fact. So before opening fire, sit back, take a breath, and just have a little think. Unless of course you are simple!

[Liam Gallagher]

TSI,

Thanks for the definition...a defintion for you;

Gullible person; having been told that gullible is not in the dictionary, has the uncontrollable and burning desire to check.

However, what is the definition of a person who having fallen for this old scam then broadcasts over it the www? ...any takers?

Perhaps my name really is Liam Gallagher..................

I think you will find old Horst is no more German than a Rolls Royce car :p

[HotDog]

I think you will find old Horst is no more German than a Rolls Royce car

Agree, he certainly can't speak German, not even when he tries to be serious.:rolleyes:

[jtr]

Liam, you didnt have to ruin it for him! TSI was probably feeling quite smug about clearing that up. :p

[Cpt. Underpants]

LG et al

You do, of course know that Rolls-Royce Cars is wholly owned by Volkswagen AG and that the name of Rolls-Royce is owned by BMW?

I thought that for a moment there that you were being clever, but that's far too smart for you.

Go for it, Horst.

[Liam Gallagher]

JTR,

It was tempting to leave him, but there is always one.....and then Capt Y fronts comes along.

It's all just way too subtle for some ........ho hum

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

outsmarted AGAIN! Liam.....keep trying, you'll get it right eventually :D :D

[jtr]

Yesirreee TSI, you sure showed 'im, that Liam sure is no match for you.:rolleyes:

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

nosirreeee jtr, i never "showed 'im". Liam "showed 'imself" by gobbing off once too often. happens to most smart @rses eventually and they're no match for anyone with half a brain. now can we get back to the thread?:p

[Horst Schmitt]

Ach so, a confession außer our simple minded Trüß Seeker, "anyone with half a brain." Ja, ve alles agree mit zat one!!

One vich ve already vere avare anyvay, Trüßie, aber you continues to proof über und über. Is it für our amusement, or are you truly ze Pimmelkopf?

[Liam Gallagher]

Yeessirree......I have always consider that I'm no match for someone with half a brain.

TSI, I think you are depriving an empty desk on the 3rd floor of an occupant.........

You don't have a target painted on the top yours shoes do you?
Whilst I know that you did look down there is no need to reply as it is a rhetorical question....and, yes, "rhetorical" is in the Collins (page 858 because I know you like to check such things)

Back to the gist of the thread, things are seldom what they seem......, posters with cheesy German accents, claims about the word gullible, Rolls Royce cars, Recruitment Bans, Upgrade Bans....

[Horst Schmitt]

...no balls...und 1/2 a brain. (said mit cheesy Deutsch accent - jawohl!).

[pontius's pa]

I ambled back to this post having suddenly remembered that a posting had caused me considerable annoyance

Mr Moderator, thank you for hearing my case

I feel obliged to remark that this thread has by its posts indicated that it has not risen above the nadir of the deplorably low intellectual wasteland in which it started.

Please keep it going so we can continue to truly appreciate the position and contributions of the somewhat desperate contributors and their insults that even kids in a kindergarden, (or should it be Kindergarten), would find it too embarrassing to utter.

Thank goodness I am boxing out of my league.

[BlueEagle]

No problems there pontius's pilot very happy to see an active thread progress! 'tis the very nature of the forum!

regards,

BlueEagle Moderator.

[robroy]

Truth Seeker, once a S##B, always a S##B:8

[whodunnit2]

RR,

TS must be a s##b as clearly he took the place of all the fired Second Officers.......... NOT.

This is getting old!

[Cpt. Underpants]

"Getting Old" for you perhaps, but as a "boy pilot", your perception of the big picture is somewhat doubtful. "Fired Second Officers"? Where did that come from? Your obvious guilty feelings about something or other is skewing your judgement, sonny. Straighten up or you may find yourself back in that Caravan/Metro/Seneca doing your Phinda-St Lucia shuttle again.

Remember that only the tall poppies lose their heads, boet.

[Dexter]

so is T S I an his pals nown as scab by the association? or if their not scabs wot are thay then?

[BlueEagle]

Reproduced here is a post that was, for a long time, a 'sticky'.

It still applies, so please be guided accordingly, Thanks, BE

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Those 'Lists' Again!!!!
Ladies and Gentlemen,


Just a reminder that, since its inception, seven years ago, PPRuNe has not allowed, "Reference to, details of or links to" such lists, the primary reason is that since the people on these lists are hardly likely to have agreed to their names being put into the public domain they may have recourse to the law and even if Danny were to only finish up with a bill for his defence it would probably cause the BB to close. If other sites wish to display them then be it on their own head.

Please would you be kind enough to cease putting any details of, references to, or links to any such lists on PPRuNe.
Failure to comply will result in the offending posters having their posting ability stopped.

Your cooperation will be much appreciated.

BlueEagle - Moderator.

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

dexter, it is of little consequence to us what we are called. sc#bs,replacement workers, custodians etc,. are all suitable and, depending on which side of the fence you are on, appropriate. i shall endeavour to get this thread back on track. it was never a case of whether Cathay pilots had balls or not, rather who was going to be dictated to by an out of date union and affiliated unions.

as with the dispute in '89 in Oz, the union had embarked on a campaign to "annoy the living daylights" out of the Companies in an attempt to gain more money, in an industry that was paying very well at the time. The AFAPs tactics were a "nine to five" campaign, totally unworkable in the aviation industry and the union new it. the AOAs tactics were mass "sick ins" again totally unworkable. now when you get someone annoyed for long enough, they are going to hit back at you and hit back hard. and so was the case with the Airlines in Oz - mass personal writs on pilots for damages. with Cathay it was indiscriminate sackings.

i concede neither retaliations were fair but they happened. the unions should have realised that they were in a no win situation and should have changed strategies but NO. AFAP stick together and it will turn out OK. AOA get IFALPA to sanction a recruitment ban and it will work out OK.

both unions were guilty of headstrong and egotistical leadership. at no time was any consideration given to the more junior pilot groups in the airlines. there were pilots in Oz that never flew again. i was still learning to fly and paying off my flying lessons - no rich Uncle paying for me! i swore, after witnessing that event in 1989 that no union or association was ever going to prevent me pursuing what i perceived to be a fair and reasonable aviation job.

hope this clarifies a few things for you young Dexter.

gee i enjoyed that week off!

[amos2]

We can presume, of course, TSI, that you have made your views well known to all the Captains and F/Os that you fly with?...

as well as to the leadership of the AOA?...

just so they know exactly where you're coming from?...

so that they know not to rely on you if push ever comes to shove?

No?...

why am I not surprised!

[flyboy69]

who really gives a F*** whether new joiners can join the AOA. i joined in support for the 49'ers only to realise that the AOA is full of fat-cats who were willing to offer 5% of their salary but not stick their neck on the real line. gutless ******s really.....needless to say, i am not in the aoa any more and most probably, under its current stewardship and direction, will never be again.

[HotDog]

In other words, you were not prepared to support the 49'ers when you realized it was going to hurt your pocket?! Well done!

[Kaptin M]

"it is of little consequence to us what we are called. sc#bs,replacement workers, custodians etc,."
Okay TSI we'll call you SCAB!

"The AFAPs tactics were a "nine to five" campaign, totally unworkable in the aviation industry.."
Doh, really!! Thank you, TSI... it was Abeles who told the pilots, "You are no different to other workers"
That was EXACTLY the point being made - to treat pilots the same as other workers was - in YOUR words - "totally unworkable in the aviation industry."

"i was still learning to fly and paying off my flying lessons" - no excuse for scabbing, TSI! We've ALL had to do it the hard way, why do YOU think YOU are the exception to the rule.
We ALL stood in line and waited our turn, as it's ALWAYS been done.
Do YOU think that you are someone special, more deserving than the guy who started 6 months..1 year...3 years..ahead of YOU??

Aviation doesn't need queue-jumpers...scabs...so don't complain about the treatment or the name-calling when it (deservedly) comes your way.

[Wizofoz]

Yes Kap,

Just like all those other nine-to-five workers. You know, the flight attendents, flight engineers, CSOs, baggage loaders,engineers. IOt was ONLY the pilots who had to work unsociable hours, and at times for no more than 3 or 4 times what these other bludgers were earning.

Guess that's why they lent you so much support...

[Kaptin M]

It was only the pilots who were accused as such.

So why did YOU scab in the Australian Dispute, Wiz?
Unable to "crack it" in normal times - like TSI - you both saw this as your only REAL chance to get into airlines.

No need to ask why NONE of the scab airlines in Australia are now in existence, is there!

Cheap shots from the likes of Wizofoz, thankfully keep the argument of employing scab labour vs suitably qualified, free-thinkers alive.

[shortly]

Kaptin M, you really are a nasty person you know. Was the atmosphere becoming a bit too moderate for you? Did you want to wind up the kids who did not want to support the immoral, unworkable and selective recruitment ban by unconcious name calling and selective quotation of facts. I have some bad news for you, the skirmish is over - notwithstanding os actions still in place. And Wiz, other than FEs how about up to ten times what those others earn for unsocial hours. Lets move on.

[Wizofoz]

Only the PILOTS were accused of being the same as all the other workers.

All the OTHER workers weren't accuse of being like all the other workers.

Well! A mortal insult like that certainly deserved the precipitation of the worst industrial dispute in the countries history and the loss of tens of thousands of job.

As to my history, I've told you all about it before, but you continue to believe what ever you wish (you always have!)

One thing you have never cleared up however,

Why DID you apply for your job back?

[Schrodingers Cat]

So, shortly, once again your slip is showing....which is more immoral? (good word that for a management tissue..) to support the 49ers or to sack people out of hand for spurious reasons to support a floundering management team desperate to keep their own snouts in the trough?..:rolleyes:

[shortly]

Given the unfortunate position the 49ers found themselves in was the direct consequence of AOA turpitude then the AOA had a moral obligation to support them (the 49ers). There was plenty in the coffers to do that - if - that same capital was not to be spent in other ways ie more industrial mischief. Just be thankful you weren't one of them, I hear you say, interesting that as I hold no fears for my job and I hold no fears for my fellow aviators either in that regard, so long as the AOA doesn't do something else that is silly. That ludicrous ban was never justifiable in the form it took. As I have said previously a Claytons ban, you know the ban you have when you don't have a ban. So name calling, cheap pot-shots and selective mis-quotation aren't helping the situation. And snouts in the trough - come on that's the pot calling the kettle black isn't it. Just a comment on your post - sorry in advance - if you use comparisons to justify argument then you must compare like things, the old apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Your comparison is pure emotion and neither chronologically nor logically linked. The Readers Digest Book of Writing Skills is worth perusal, it also has a good chapter on resumes.

[jtr]

Shortly ATFQ :zzz:

[Schrodingers Cat]

Yet again, shortly, your slip is showing dear. Comparing like with like is a good idea....comparing your 'answers' in this thread with those on the current 'truth will set you free' thread and many in the past you see the same tired device to foul the stream of debate.

Each time your posts seem to have substance, but end up being a sidetrack away from the main issue. Some time ago you were accused of being a Freehills shrink. Whether you are being duplicitious is less open to question each time you post.

As JTR says ATFQ.

PS, is the Readers Digest still published?:eek:

[shortly]

There are issues about which even you and I can agree SC, there are others about which we never will. C'est la vie, such is life. What I object to is the childlike name calling by those who have acted really the same as the recipients of their bonhomie but will not open their eyes to see it. Actually, they acted worse and pretend they are better. They put in a percentage of their wage to support those whose jobs they took. Hypocrites and liars.

[laury]

KAPTIN M

I cant believe you can sit there and type this cr.....p.
The truth is that you took longer than most to complete your ATPL's. So because you got your student licence first, should you be eligable before others? Seniority does not stick for life.
The thing that gets me is YOU TRIED TO GET YOUR JOB BACK but they didnt want you!! DONT DENY IT because its the truth. Thats why I find it so unbelievable that you could write such rot.
YOU WERE NOT WANTED BECAUSE YOU ARE YOU.
So wake up and smell the roses and look at yourself rather than others trying to make something out of this not so good industry.

[BlueEagle]

This thread won't be allowed to degenerate into yet another "89ers" thread nor into a name-calling thread.

This thread is about CX and has thus far generated some interesting dialogue, lets keep it that way please. Thanks.

BlueEagle - Moderator.

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

thank you for your patience Blue Eagle.
if i may just briefly reply to amos and Kaptin M. i have informed crew of my position re: the AOA and in a number of cases thus far, they have been very sympathetic. i don't desire any contact with the present leadership of the AOA so , as such, they would only be aware of my position through heresay. as for joining the union under the present circumstances - " i don't think so!"
kaptin M, you are indeed a lost soul with,IMHO, a huge chip on your shoulder. you were going to give the AFAP the flick and join the company, like many of your companions did. but what happened? you lost your nerve and crumpled under union pressure to stay out. i would suggest you were probably the victim of peer group pressure and now you resent that decision and everyone but your own good self is to blame. we all make mistakes, you must be man enough to realise your mistake and never allow yourself to be ruled by a union again. stand up for your own "gut feelings" i would guess you realised early in the piece the AFAP's fight was futile in it's present form but you allowed them to dictate to you and it all turned to sh!te.this is what i was trying to impart to amos - it was not so much the Cathay pilots having balls, but whether or not they could stand up to a union leading them into oblivion. of course we, the replacement workers ( or for you Kapin M - scabs) will get the blame for dividing a union bit i am afraid the division was there many, many months before we joined. as with the ansett/ taa management, the CX management did not come down in the last shower !

[jtr]

At the risk of drawing this thread away from the Aust. dispute (happy anniversary for yesterday I believe) let me make a few points to you TSI, and all others who believe they are indestructible.

Fighting between ourselves will achieve nothing.

There is only one "enemy" in this entire saga that we refer to as a career. It is the penny pinching scrouges (commonly referred to as management) who are hell bent on screwing us out of a decent career, and grinding our renumeration down until it reaches what they refer to as an industry standard level.

There is only one way to stop, or at least slow this process. That method is via a group that represents the majority. Presently that group is the AOA.

I, like you are B-scale, yet if you look carefully, you will see that I am afforded certain benefits (medical) which you are not. Why is this so? Because the company are very slowly chipping away at us from all directions. You have the AOA to thank for getting your present P-fund contribution. Were the company to have their way (and they did give it a shot for a short period) you would be getting significantly less.

What is my point? You can beat your chest all you want, but if all of us dont get our sh!t in one pile, (whether it be the AOA or not), we will find ourselves sitting there in 10 or 15 years time, commenting on how lucky we are that the FAU managed to negotiate our maximum housing to only be reduced to $24K, instead of the shared housing policy which the company was about to implement.

Clock is ticking.

[jungly]

Well said jtr!

The AOA can take the credit for the current COS. I agree if management had their way, things would be a bunch worse...........but..........

the AOA can also take the credit for the fact that the current COS are now defunct. (There was no re-negotiation as the committee refused to 'drop the ban')

So where to now? Rather than the mexican stand-off we have ....where - after the election are we going to go? How far are we willing to go?

The company will accept no less than not only dropping the ban but also a. no blacklist & b. allowing those previously banned 'new joiners' the chance to join the AOA.
Is the membership willing to accept this - no matter who 'wins' the election?

Personally I think this is the ONLY way forward - the ONLY way to get "our sh!t in ONE pile".

TSI and others may choose not to join (personally I dont think the AOA needs militant or emotive extremists of any ilk) but if membership again exceeds 90% the 'whats in it for ME' crowd may see the decided benefits of speaking with one voice.

The next move in this sorry saga is the AOAs and the stakes are very high....perhaps even they survival of the AOA itself...dont you think?

[Schrodingers Cat]

This all chums together act only works until the next disagreement over the way forward against a colonial management style.....would YOU put your trust in these HKAOA new joiners who have already proved their character? Whether shortly, TSI or anyone else like it or not, the Co. MUST negotiate with someone. That someone has to be the HKAOA, as set by contract, precedent, and knowing HKG, eventually the courts. Nobody will win in this apart from the leeches, sorry, lawyers.:{

[Wizofoz]

SC,

If you want to discuss "Character" I suggest you cast your net a little more widely than the new joiners.

At the outset of the ban the AOA undertook to "Support the application" of pilots who refused to join under the ban. I have asked on this forum and by direct contact with the AOA how this undertaking would be fulfilled and now ask you the same question. The reply from the AOA has been stony silence.

If we want to discuss "Character" let's talk about a group of well paid professionals who fight their battles on the back of people less fortunate than themselves, lest it actually risk their own positions, or indeed those gullible enough to believe that this organisation will stand by it's pledges when they support it.

[Schrodingers Cat]

I take it your last paragraph refers to DC, NR, and the rest of the management setup?......:p

[Wizofoz]

I take it that's as near to an answer as I can expect.

Any question of "Character" has been answered to my satisfaction.

[BMM389EC]

Well, said Wizofoz. Definately a case of I'm OK, you're not as far as the AOA is concerned.

[jafa]

Phew!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let's see, umm, cx pilots no-balls??? Well, A scales, COS, AHK, ASL, the 49ers... walked away from their responsibilities every time. Hard to defend. Mighty hard to defend.

As for the 89ers thing which seems to have got bound up in this, if you AN/TN guys had done what blubbering bob said and joined the actu like good little boys and thereafter gone on strike in support of every screwdriver holder between gove and hobart and handed over your super such as it was to good old pete which was all you had to do you would now all be perfectly happy and content and there would be no need for all this heat and fury and we could shut pprune down and go home to our wives and girl friends and live happily ever after.

Think about it.

[amos2]

OK! let's ask the question...pete who?

[jafa]

are you serious?

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

no one is indestructable in this industry. what goes around, comes around. there must soon be a total cleanout of the HKAOA executive and a new direction in employee/employer relations embraced. the "recruitment ban" was a farce and a poor industrial tactic. let's face it, even the name adopted -RECRUITMENT BAN - was a joke. the only people who "recruit" is the Company. what could IFALPA have been thinking. did anyone seriously believe that Cathay Pacific were going to take any notice of a directive by a couple of unions to stop recruiting? of course we all know that this was a gutless guise, endorsed and probably initiated by the AOA, and which really was a "joining ban". then we had the up-grades - what a mess! this is where the AOA, not the Cathay pilots, had NO BALLS. a union could not be seen to be supporting a joining ban on pilots - the future membership, so they hid behind a "recruitment ban". very cute but very disasterous for the union in the end.
the clock IS ticking jtr. ticking for the AOA to get it's house in order by changing the guard and make a genuine effort to get everyone under the same banner.

[Mfazi Ndlovo]

Gentleman, after a lengthy post we realize again nothing has been achieved. My only sadness is directed at the anger and hatred created from this episode which is being used to belittle users viewing their opinions instead of constructively finding the way forward. Who knows what that may be but its gotta start somewhere. This ordeal has made everyone a victim including the company, the new joiners along with the union and the 49’ers alienating one another from the way forward. The system is at fault, not the people so let’s built a system that works and quite barking at the shadows which we won’t catch in any case. I am at peace with what has happened and both the new joiners and union should come to grips with their differences because one joint effort will give the AOA the strength in numbers. :ok:

[FlexibleResponse]

Nothing has been achieved? CX has been taken back to Court by the AOA. Management has finally agreed to restart talks in November.

The replacement pilots have every reason to feel vulnerable to future management decisions.

[shortly]

FR is a perfect example of why there can be no progress between CX management and the AOA.
"CX has been taken back to Court by the AOA. Management has finally agreed to restart talks in November."
Here is the basis which determines our good faith we'll sue you and expect you to roll over and play dead. Darn, I'd love a bottle of whatever FR drinks.
If there is to be negotiation in any sort of environment conducive to progress how can there still be the less than subtle threat of continued expensive legal action, 'scab' lists and selective enrolment for the AOA?
If I were in a position to decide I would not even turn up for the 'negotiations - hah' in November. Wouldn't it be better to clean dirty laundry around that table as part of the negotiated discussions and leave court action as a very last resort? The judicial apparatus can be slowed with minimal cost without adversely affecting your position.
And, can you believe "I am at peace with what has happened", denial, the ultimate placebo for the uninformed ovine fraternity.

[Mfazi Ndlovo]

:confused: Mr. Flexible Response. Your statement about the legal actions does not necessarily relinquish the pain, anguish and discomfort created over the past ten years and that is very much the issue. More tension is always created but enough said as I do understand and accept that the legal action taken was the only option in this entire saga. My question is , are the unionist attitudes a prerequisite when joining Cathay Pacific? Why shun those who approach life in another manner and accept that people are actually different and are very unlike the small group if pilots Cathay once employed. It also seems financial benefit is actually a topic of many discussions and that is a backlash from the A-scalers and the “then soon to be A-scalers”, not the plight of our colleagues in lesser careers now. This was certainly the case with the many who withdrew their memberships during the Ban period, which on its own spawns an entire debate about the validity of the ban knowing that near on half the actual pilot body did veto the recruitment ban. This is why I suggest a fresh approach to join the split body and build the future together. We can clear this mess.
My case is one against the pilot body being split bearing in mind that the new joiners may very well be a minority but they are not alone outside the membership of the AOA and undoubtedly many members of the AOA may feel the new joiners have a rightful position here at Cathay Pacific.
:ok:

Mr. Shortly
:confused: You lash out at me for a feeling of goodwill and optimism....... then you sink FR for unwillingness to negotiate. We all have strong opinions my boy but take it easy with those knives and perhaps we will see more clearly. Remember we are playing for the same team. Denial is far from where I am at , and please inform me in your own time as to whether you think we can find the way forward whilst the anger boils in our bloodstream. I certainly hope the negotiating team has more direction than that... yet you hint of constructive negotiation. At least we are on the right path.
:ok:

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

hey FR you are kidding Pal. i've never felt more secure with my present management. vulnerability would presently lay with the AOA leadership because of their inability to bring the Company to the negotiating table with some positive negotiating !:{

[Schrodingers Cat]

A little fat bird tells me that CX pilots may well have a chance to disprove the title of this thread.......ASL(II) apparently is at this very moment having those essential cosmetic touches added to its conditions of service to attract the poor and needy amongst the cockpit crew fraternity(?).....what will the 'millionaire morons do this time?.......:E

[FlexibleResponse]

A cat in a box, a poison chalice and now a little fat bird who wants to examine the contents.

[Schrodingers Cat]

Oh, so that means the cat in the hat and the fat bat are wrong then........?

Cue Shortly...........:cool:

[shortly]

Obviously my education is sorely inadequate as I have absolutely no idea what FR and SC are rabbiting on about. What is it now 57 odd years as an airline and NEVER an operating loss? Pretty good management right? New aircraft, new routes, expanding like topsy the future is rosey indeed for real CX employees. If the AOA don't come back to the negotiating table in a spirit of mutual advantage then they will be completely consigned to history - if they aren't already. What about the rumour being spread by the Chinese mafia in CX that we will get a small bonus at Xmas - 3 weeks salary? ASL II, if you referring to the new Air Hong Kong ok but otherwise just another little pot stir to gain reaction. As you nice little pit bulls liked to say in the early days of the 49ers -time to wake up and smell the coffee. Or maybe take a few valium.

[Schrodingers Cat]

Excellent peice of misdirection Shortly, well done, I knew I could rely on you! Now ATFQ :suspect:

[shortly]

Once again SC I am at a loss to know what on earth you are talking about. If you mean the question as to whether CX pilots have got balls or not, well the proof is in the pudding isn't it?

[nec]

ive known a Cathay pilot with HUGE balls....very nice indeed.

[shortly]

Well I suggest you bottle them - be worth a small fortune.

[Traffic]

Pickled Onions....a new installment for CX in the City perhaps?

[HotDog]

What about the gherkin?

[Schrodingers Cat]

Normally found inserted in ones' nether regions if the management have anything to do with it.....perhaps you could help shortly with his. (CX do not supply lubricant due cost saving)......:ooh:

[HotDog]

A very sour statement!:ok:

[VR-HFX]

Pussy

You've had too many Bay 31's !

Pretty soon you will be rid of all the A's and you can troll on till your 60...and you will cos it's still the best show in town..KY or no KY.

[Schrodingers Cat]

I rather suggest that if the CEOs' recent comments about the classic and the purchase of 744F to replace them is correct, there may well be quite a few more 'A' scalers around on a consolidated 744 cargo fleet............at least it will sort out the seniority for once and for all......:D

[VR-HFX]

I for one would be happy to spend the rest of my time on the freigher fleet rather than go on the bus and scramble for OZ roster.

You are on the right track...they could put all the remaining A's on the freighter (don't know anyone who would complain) and also dredge the retiree list for those that still have alimony committments and nowhere to retire to or noone to talk to.

The freighter biz could absorb the additional cost allocation and the pax fleet could get some cost relief. With a bit of lateral thinking they could also absorb the 49 issue into the freighter fleet...but that would be a perfect world and heaven forbid that ever happening.

[shortly]

HFX, you are a nice guy for sure. Your lateral thought processes are probably a bit much for most though. A consolidated freighter fleet is quite obviously the way ahead with the Classics sadly going the way of the Tri bomb being replaced with 400s. Probably start to see it in 2005-2008. Recall the 49ers and place them on a happy fleet, as it mostly is now, roster em******ances excepted. Jeez that would be a perfect world and will not happen. That is, unless, the Aircrew Officers Dis-association have much bigger bargaining chips than are obvious to the hoi polloi.

[VR-HFX]

Shorts

Aaarrgghhh the Tri bomb!!.

In the days of the Marrow twas indeed hard not to skip to work...and with a bit of lateral cranial dexterity it should still be possible to imbue that kind of feeling again...let me see if I can find Broster's or Jenner's phone number...move over Dr Findlay...your case book is full.

[Schrodingers Cat]

Old shorts has come through again...what a cracking idea...let's bring back Tucknott and Fern, with Horsting as coach.......trebles all round!!!!!! :}

[HotDog]

Broster and Jenner are right here now for the Rugby World Cup, boosting the profits of the hospitality industry.:ok:

[amos2]

So...now that we've rolled into a new year...

what's the latest with the 49ers? :confused:

[amos2]

Hmmm!...no response I see...

why am I not surprised! :rolleyes:

[6feetunder]

The 49ers are still full members of the HKAOA. Not many members visit this site as they have their own rumours forum on the union site. CX people that frequent this site are probably not members of the union and as such have demonstrated a complete lack of concern for the 49ers or any of their other colleagues for that matter.

The HKAOA office would be able to fill you in on the situation I think.

[amos2]

I thank you for that info Six.

I do have more than a passing interest,however,in the well being of the "49ers" and would genuinely like to know if they are continuing their careers elsewhere or are still being financially maintained by their fellow pilots.

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

oh that's cute amos..........

"or are still being financially maintained by their fellow pilots."

.......you mean the one's with no balls ? :yuk:

[6feetunder]

And your "more than a passing inerest" would be...?

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

mmmmmm....no response amos I see......

why am I not surprised ! :rolleyes:

[amos2]

So!...now that we are about to move into Feb 04...
where do we stand with the 49ers?

[6feetunder]

What's this "we" stuff. Are you at CX? Are you an IFALPA member?

If you are so curious call the union +852 2736-0823, ask for the General Seretary, he'd be happy to enlighten you.

[Pope Mobile]

You think you had a tailstrike on take off, you swallow you pride, return to the airport, and do the right thing. LAND. Not sit in the jet for 11 hrs. Then land. DUH:)

[amos2]

I think bollox is actually spelt bollocks! ;)

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

at last you have found your calling in life amos - spell checker for pprune :sad:

[BuzzBox]

At least he has a calling in life...:E

[ironbutt57]

Haven't been on this forum for yonks....good to see all you guys alive n well;) :cool:

[jacobus]

Ah Ironbutt, mon brave...how i've missed you..By the by, are you still dropping noted to T~rnbull on how to shaft the guys ???

[Schrodingers Cat]

Nice to see the guys throwing out the iniquitous housing 'deal' proposed by the 'new management' and CX.....perhaps they found their balls again? :ok: :E :ok:

[Freehills]

Then again, narrowly failing to get 67% vote is hardly throwing it out!

Could be seen as somewhat short sighted, not accepting a deal that would finally index the allowance at a historic low in HK housing market - i.e. the only way is up, where as under current system the market could go back to levels of a few years ago, and no mechanism for automatic increase in allowance...

[FlexibleResponse]

Yet then again re-pegging the maximum rent to such a low figure for FOs severely clipped it’s wings and ensured that the proposal would never fly. The very fact that the initial proposal for a change to the Housing Policy came from management meant they were seeking new ways to increase profits at the expense of the pilots.

Speaking of profit, Cathay announced today that 2003’s result was a HK$1.30 billion profit (US$165 million). The first half was a loss of HK$1.24 billion due to devastating effect of SARS on air travel. This means that the second half must have been HK$2.54 billion profit to offset the first-half loss.

If this was extrapolated over a SARS-free 12 months, it would indicate a full year profit of HK$5.08 (US$650 million). This compares with a 2002 net profit of HK$3.98 billion (post 9/11).

Not such a bad effort for a bunch of "Cathay pilots who have no balls". (Ably assisted by a dedicated ground force flogged into submission by a tyrannical management).

Oh by the way, they achieved the boss’s obsessive goal of Operating Costs of HK$2.00 per ATK (Available Tonne Kilometers). Is he happy? No, you guessed it. He has just set a new target of a further 10% reduction. That means HK$1.80 per ATK. Batten down the hatches for more rough weather ahead.

One can imagine management starting with the Housing Proposal by shredding it…Just like they did to the package being offered to the new recruits for Air Hong Kong.

[Schrodingers Cat]

Yoo hooooo Shortly....time to come out from under your rock......:D :D :D

[amos2]

Hmmm!...I must be missing something here,

Flexis' comments indicate that management have got the balls!...I'd rather see it the other way around!

[FaPoGai]

JTR etc

I am astonished that after so much water has passed under the bridge you are all so wraptd up in this pointless exercise.

Piolts job is to pilot---managements job is to manage.
By and large Mgmt. seems to be doing the better job.

How much longer are the "victims of the dispute " going to be able to poison the waters of what continues to be one of the best jobs in commercial aviation?

I think I might just cash in my major share holding and watch you all scrabble for unemployment benefits.

Remember!! they know all the answers---- and you do not even know the questions.
Rgds. FPG.

[shortly]

Bit harsh FaPo Gai but not far off the mark. Sure things have happened which both sides in the company now regret. But, 50 how many years now and no operating losses? T'management must be doing something right. Post 97 and SARS company plans which did not include any layoffs. Company growing like topsy and future looking quite rosy. Nonetheless we have a great workforce of aircrew and they contribute very greatly to the bottom line figures. Lots of mending taking place behind the scenes. Lets all pour some oil on the troubled waters instead of stirring the pot.

[FlexibleResponse]

Ah yes, the 49ers (and their many friends and supporters) have been long awaiting for some of that oil to be poured on troubled waters. How does $500 million sound? We just have to wait for the courts to decide...

[ils747]

Lets face it, the AOA were out of their league and the 49ers bless them are hardly talked about. Hard to accept but so true.

[Bucking Bronco]

As an outsider what happened should never have happened. The problem seemed a lack of knowledge, communication and coordination from the Union; a lack of solidarity from individual pilots and the draconian HKG labour laws.

What's happened to the 49ers? Any of them still in HKG?

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

at least there were only 49 casualties. in '89, the AFAP sacrificed 509 pilot careers because of a lack of knowledge, communication and coordination from the Union :mad:

[amos2]

OK!...we're now into April 04'...

The 49'ers got their jobs back yet?

[ironbutt57]

and to think I used to pay for entertainment........:cool: :cool: :cool: :rolleyes: