Virgin vexed as Air Pacific upgrades

[Wirraway]

"The Australian"

Virgin vexed as Air Pacific upgrades
By Steve Creedy
June 27, 2003

VIRGIN Blue's proposed international services face a stiff fight to wrest market share from Air Pacific as the Fiji-based airline upgrades its fleet and expands its services.

Air Pacific yesterday took delivery of a second leased Boeing 747-400 from Singapore Airlines and predicts passenger numbers will grow 14 per cent in 2003-04.

Chief executive John Campbell would not be drawn on a price war with Virgin, but said the airline would aggressively protect its market share.

"We've got no intention of walking away from what we've worked fairly hard to build up," he said.

Mr Campbell said Air Pacific was aware of the low-cost carrier's application for capacity, as well as moves to get twin-engine operation clearance and international licensing.

He said Virgin's capacity application indicated the low-cost carrier was looking at daily 737-800 operations, using a similar configuration to its domestic operations.

He expected them to "cherry-pick" mature routes and predicted initial services to Fiji would be from Brisbane and/or Sydney.

"I think they'll be an extremely aggressive competitor and they'll certainly come at us with price," he said.

"I expect they'll come at us with reasonable frequency and they'll give us a pretty tough time for a market share.

"I'm not sure they will grow the market hugely. It's a reasonably mature market already, so we think it'll probably be a market share battle, rather than us keeping what we've got and Virgin adding another layer on top."

Yesterday's 747-400 delivery is part of a long-term strategy by Air Pacific, which is 46 per cent owned by Qantas, to boost its wide body fleet.

After a disastrous year following the Fiji coup, the airline's financial performance is back on track with its 2002-03 pre-tax profit up 160 per cent to $F25.14 million ($20.2 million) on a 14.2 per cent rise in revenue to $F407 million.

It had already boosted its fleet with the addition of three next-generation 737s and a Boeing 767-300ER. The two ex-Ansett International 747s, fresh from a major overhaul and on five-year leases from Singapore with options to extend, were something of a windfall. Ansett had reconfigured them in a hard-to-lease two-class configuration with a generous business class seat pitch, and both classes had been fitted with personal video screens.

The first of the new aircraft is already delivering significant efficiency gains over its 747-200 predecessors, which were payload-constricted in typical Nadi take-off conditions: a 5-knot tail wind and 30C night temperature.

Mr Campbell said the 400s could normally take off with almost a full payload of passengers and freight, and a planned 400m runway extension would lift all restrictions.

Fuel efficiency on Sydney services had been about 13 per cent better than the older 747-200s, and the airline expected even better figures on US services.

Mr Campbell said the airline expected to be flying daily to the US in 2007-08 and anticipated further expansion in Australia, with Sydney eventually supporting double daily flights.

The airline was also looking at eventually flying daily 300-seater services to Melbourne, Auckland and Brisbane.

It has plans to acquire four A330-300s between 2005 and 2011, although it has yet to sign a purchase agreement, and Singapore is lobbying enthusiastically in favour of leased Boeing 777s.

"We've not signed a purchase agreement and in today's climate we serve our interest best in keeping a lot of tension on the process," Mr Campbell said.

"We're not in negotiations with SQ to lease 777s at the moment. They're promoting the idea to us."

Steve Creedy flew to Nadi courtesy of Air Pacific and Boeing.

==========================================

[Bugsmasha]

Get off your high horse Longhaul. DJ's grip in Australia isn't so small, (one third of the domestic market and GROWING). Are you aware of the pay and conditions at Air Pac & Poly ? Cos if you were you wouldn't be spouting the dribble you are about the DJ drivers being forced into working for such a pittance.:yuk:

[dirty deeds]

Well said bugsmasher, sounds like ilovelonghaul has spent too many hours at high altitude staring into the abis. Ilovelonghaual, i have to pose a question to you which bugsmasher has also mentioned, who owns jetconnect and a percentage of one of these NATIONALY owned Pacific companies and hopefully soon our KIWI friends which also has a Freedom life line. So its OK for some airlines to buy into others or improach on their turf yet its not OK for others. Start educating yourself whilst your on these longhaul flights by reading the Fin Review ($2.50 at your local news agency) or try the BRW, and then make some educated statements about cost structures and compositions of companies in regards to competition and award structures. Sounds like your starting to worry about someting, I wonder if its your ego or your pay packet.

[huan hung lo]

Unfortunately Bugsmasha,

Virgin pilots are working for a lot less than they could or should be earning!
In Australian industry terms, the pay and conditions at VB for pilots are second rate. Your willingness to sell your talents and qualifications for peanuts is less than admirable but it is your right none the less.

There is something to be said about the personal satisfaction that one gains when he or she is remunerated in a way that recognises the skills required for the job and acknowledges the valuable contribution that an airline pilot makes to any airline.

Executives will often point out that the excellent pay and conditions that they enjoy are directly linked to their performance.

I see no valid reason why the same can't be said for professional pilots.

Obviously Bugsmasha, you do. Care to enlighten us?

[cnsnz]

ISN'T A PILOT JUST ONE PART OF THE AIRLINE?
THERE ARE A HELL OF ALOT OF OTHER PEOPLE WHOM ARE INVOLVED LONG BEFORE A PUNTER GETS ON A PLANE THEY ARE JUST AS IMPORTANT AS THE PILOT.
YES THE PILOT FLIES THE PLANE THAT GETS THEM THERE BUT IF THEY ARE MUCKED AROUND ON THE PHONE TO RESERVATIONS OR AT CHECKIN OR THE BAGS DONT ARRIVE THEN YOU LOSE THE CLIENT TO SOMEONE ELSE.
SO I THINK THAT EVERYONE IN THE COMPANY IS JUST AS IMPORTANT.
DONT GET ME WRONG YOU SHOULD BE REMUNERATED FOR WHAT YOU HAVE TRAINED FOR BUT EVERYONE PLAYS THERE PART.

[huan hung lo]

cnsnz,

Mate I hate to sound elitist but pilots and engineers for that matter, by the very nature of their job description are required to meet certain standards regularly and with no exceptions.

The skills and qualifications that they need are not of their making but are mandated by the very demanding and complex nature of the job at hand.

If a baggage handler stuffs up you might not get your bags on time. If a reservations clerk stuffs up it might make for a bad day.
If a pilot stuffs up you can find yourself very dead very quickly!

Care to put a price on that?

[cnsnz]

As I stated Dont get me wrong you deserve to get remunerated for the job you do and have trained for .
All I was saying is that the flight crew are not the only cog in the airline wheel,there are alot of other staff who are paid not that well by some companies and yet they have as much input into the product that passengers are paying for and they to deserve to be aknowledged and compensated like everyone else.

[blueloo]

QANTAS wasn't started by a reservation worker or a salesperson.

[Ralph the Bong]

What about Load Controllers and Dangerous Goods Dispatchers? Two just off the top of my head. I am aware too of some bag slingers who 'saved the day' with detecting some dangerous goods that a Pax had in their bag. The fact that these guys were switched on and spoke up when they noticed something odd saved an AN aeroplane. Same has probably happend around the world countless times before. I hold the view that what makes an airline safe is its 'system' and as such is comprised of many individual parts..

PS There is another thread regarding pay and condition/state of the industry (see Jetconnect). Just because someone has taken a job at a discount carrier is no indication of their personal abilities, or lack thereof. I have met thoroghly professional who will never get out of GA and I know some heavy jet pilots (incl. at Qantas) who cant get into an aeroplane without someone holding their hand. To suggest that ones ability can be measured by the size of a pay packet is a F#$%^& joke. Anyone who asserts this sort of rubbish needs to grow up. I also know many able people who were knocked back by QF who have performed very well in other positions and are now at Virgin Blue and Air Pacific. If you want to find people to blame over "pay and conditions", look no further than the architects of globalisation. I heard Merpati pilots make $AÙS 6-12K.To iloveLong haul and others, If you feel so strongly about people flying jets for lower pay, why dont you take it upon yourself to secure for such poeple high paid positions at YOUR company.

[Col. Walter E. Kurtz]

For some people getting out of GA for example and getting into DJ, the money is not peanuts - considering what GA conditions and equipment are like.

So, for many, it's a substantial upgrade, if not 'major airline' riches.

If the high priests of Qantas weren't so elitist and vehemently protecting the brotherhood, maybe things would be different.

Plenty of talented, experienced and extremely capable aviators never made it through stage 1.

Plenty crap ones have slipped by.

So, it's easy to speak of not working for peanuts when you are in the ivory towers looking down on the unwashed masses, trying to better themselves.

Also, business is business. If airline management can kill a competitor, they usually do - without remorse and without mercy.

The state of the airline industry is not the responsibility of the pilots. There is simply nothing else left to cut back on except labour costs.

Flight crews do their job, as expected, don'y kill anyone or wreck the equipment (most of the time) and get no bonus for this. Management get to take all the trimmings and manage to run an organisation into the ground, more often than not get a bonus for doing their job, or paying themselves bonuses or protecting pension payouts when it looks like it's all gone pear shaped, and still manage to come out the other end smelling of roses and into some other highly paid management position.

Who benefits? The punter. And what do they do? When one mob falls over, they simpky go to the next cheapest mob still standing, that (probably) won't fly them into the ground.

[cnsnz]

Blueloo
Maybe Qantas wasn't started by a reservations worker or a salesperson.But if it wasn't for them or the bagage handlers, checkin staff,load controlers,dispatchers they wouldn't be flying now that is unless the flight crews are going to do all these jobs as well as flying the planes.

[dingo084]

Perhaps the headline in the Oz should have been worded

"Virgin finds another reason to bleat and get some free publicity"



OK bluloo, what were the occupations of those who started Q.A.N.T.A.S.

and

The original 'slut' was a driver of hot air :O



http://www.jetblasters.com/albums/album04/Vigin_Competitor.jpg


ding :ok:

[huan hung lo]

Ralph,

You need to smoke a little less of your bong mate and get with the programme.

If you think that a baggage handler is worth as much as a highly trained pro then all I can say is that you're smoking some pretty serious ****!

I mean if we go down your path of logic then the next time some labourer comes up with an idea to save a company some money we better run of to the IRC in a bloody hurry so that we can secure his executive salary......Right?

In case you didn't know it the safety of an aircraft and its trusting souls is directly dependant on the skills and expertise of the pilots that manipulate its controls daily. Decisions that affect the disposition of an aircraft while it is travelling at 500kts rest with its pilots. The buck stops at the fingertips of the pilot in command.

You say that what makes an airline safe is its"system" thats comprised of many individual parts. True!

What you fail to recognise though Ralph is that some parts simply by virtue of their complexity demand higher skills and training and play a bigger role than others.

Take the windshield wipers off your car and potentially you are jeopardising your safety. Take the steering wheel away and you can kiss your arse goodbye!

Sure as smoking a bong can get you whacked!

[HotDog]

I guess it must be very easy to knock DJ pilots for lowering standards by accepting lower pay and conditions than the ones you are presently enjoying. You are very lucky and I'm certain that the DJ pilots would love to be in your shoes if they had the opportunity to do so. So what would you have them do? Refuse a lower paid offer of a flying job and drive a truck or a taxi instead? Oh yes, that would show Virgin wouldn't it? Get real fellows, Virgin is here to stay, low pay or not.

[cnsnz]

huanhunglo/Ilovelonghaul
Forgive me I must have missed something I didn't realise that the regulating authorities have different standards for pilots based on their pay packets?
I thought they were assessed based on the standards set by the governing authorities such as CASA CAA etc.
You underpaid guys must be glad that you do not have to be as qualified and have the same abilities as the big money earners but are still allowed to fly.

[huan hung lo]

Hot dog and cnsnz,

I am not saying that Virgin pilots are lowering standards by accepting lousy pay and conditions. I am sure that they are just as capable as any one else in the business.

Its just that by accepting such lousy conditions relatively speaking, they are inadvertantly creating a precedent that whils't I doubt will affect me, is bound to destroy the worth of this career for the many that follow.

Its sad really!

[currawong]

cnsnz

What you say is correct. Just another cog in a very big machine.

But - how much cash up front did the LAME, cabin crew, cleaner, administrator, manager et al have to fork out to get into their trade?

How many of them had to get into the top X percent or so of their respective trades to be considered for a position?

How many of them stuck their necks out for years for dodgey employers with dodgey equipment and 5hit pay to get to the point where they can even apply for such positions?

How many of them had to go bush or emigrate to get their first jobs?

Do not forget, cnsnz, there are many operations where the pilot IS the baggage handler, check in staff, load controller, despatcher and a lot more one cannot mention due to shall we say, legal fine points.

Yes, everyone plays their part.

If you are just winding us up :ok: fair enough.

If not, I suggest you forget comparing highly experienced aircrew with ticketing clerks and surf somewhere else.

[ferris]

I thought the point of the article was that the entrenched players were dumping capacity in order to stave off competition (a tried and true QF etc. tactic).
No comment on that?

[cnsnz]

CURRAWONG
Yes some tongue in cheek comments.
Whilst I am not a pilot I have alot of friends who are and I do realise and have seen all the effort that they have put in to get a career in the aviation industry.
What does annoy me though sometimes is to read some pilots replies in here that imply that some are far superior pilots to others by the amounts they earn and forget that some of the guys that have accepted less conditions have had to do so through no fault of there own , and they are now making it worse for everyone else.I to have lost jobs through airlines going bust three times in fact and I earn less now where I am than I did 10 yrs ago but this is the nature of the industry and sometimes you have to accept what you can until something better comes along.
Which hopefully is sooner rather than later.
regards
cnsnz

[currawong]

cnsnz

Yes, there are some egos here. And some pretty good wind ups.

The rest of your post is pretty familiar territory to many here....

kia kaha:ok:

[Ralph the Bong]

Haun, where did I say that a bag snatcher should be paid as much as a jet Pilot? I didn't. Read my post again. Carefully. My inference is that other staff play an important safety role in operations. By the way, I dont partake in 'weed', the "Ralph the Bong" nickname came from 2 Swedish backpackers who I..never mind..:E

[fruitbatflyer]

All this bleating about 'low paid' pilots. Wouldn't be a jet captain in OZ earning less than $100k a year, and the Virgin pilots considerably more. Open the newspapers and look at the salaries on offer for doctors to go and work in rathole country towns. Divide the hours worked by dollars earned and you can't seriously think we are ever going to get sympathy from either the unwashed public, or airline beancounters who ENVY us so bad it hurts them.
Sure, our conditions have been eroded over the years. But, so far, it ain't that bad given the cost of living in this country. I'd rather be on 100k here than twice that amount in Europe or most of Asia.
Mention was made of the p!ss poor salaries at Polynesian and Air Pacific, but again, compared with what the rest of the local workforce earns, not too bad. Local captains are quite well off if they live the local life. Only bad if you are an expat trying to put the kids through private school, pay off the investments, property etc, but then you wouldn't be there if you could get a job in Oz, would you?
Qantas pilots will eventually end up on Virgin-type salaries, not the reverse, so get used to just being in the top 10%, not the top 2.5% (or whatever it is), of wage earners.

[Karunch]

You get what you pay for, and Virgin Blue to a large extent have.

One must only look to the Atsb website to gain an insight into the Virgin Blue cockpit circus. For those that prefer to turn a blind eye to the amateurish Virgin Blue flightcrew standards, read no further.

The documented cases reveal an F/o who has difficulty reading Ng altimeters, a crew taxiing with an engineer attached to the aeroplane, the quickest 737 walkarounds known, and a not so secret runway overun. No mention is made of the takeoff with pitot covers installed, or the crew operating below transition altitude on a standard altimeter setting (and subsequent near miss). Formerly the domain of private pilots.

While all airlines have incidents, Virgin Blue's show that Australian airline standards have reached an all time low.

[ladbroke]

Ilovelonghaul (or whatever) can you or someone else tell me the salary of the captain of QF1 in the golf course at Bangkock and how this has helped the prestige of Oz pilots here and abroad?

[Flight Detent]

Hi all,
personally, I would like to see Air Pacific go out of business -
they are a group of mostly unprofessional locals, with no real idea what is happening around them, the expats in there battling against the bickering and back-stabbing that goes on is what keeps the place afloat!

AP have run brand new 737s off the runway, heavy landed 737s at Sydney, frightened some pax half to death with their goround procedure, and the standard of aircraft maintenance is frightening.
And, of course, now there is no FE overseeing the work on the longhaul 744s, and they were kept quite busy on the 742s.

I don't have enough room here to tell you about the style of their crew scheduling department, suffice to say that they went quite a long way out of their way to be nasty to expats!
By far, the best Fijian I ever met, sadly died whilst I was there, and they have gone backwards ever since!

nuf said!

[Three Bars]

So fruitbatflyer, you'd be quite happy to take a pay cut then wherever you work? I can only assume you're not an airline pilot, because I don't think there'd be anyone of us quite as laid back about eroding conditions as you seem to be.

This issue is not about what pilots in different countries or different professions get paid - this is about keeping what we have, without people such as yourself being content at the prospect of us getting less.

[dirty deeds]

Lets blame DJ for everything, I hear they contributed to starting the Iraq war, caused HIH and Onetel to collaspe, indirectly manipulates OPEC, developed SARS and released it into ASIA, and I have also heard that David Hunter has organised a hugh multi-national golbalised conglomerate to lower the wages of QF pilots.

[xkred27]

Karunch, A few VB incidents that Qantas has done before.
Did the VB running off the runway cost $100, 000, 000 to repair and ruin a perfectly good golf course. Whilst blamming the crew standards, look at your own vast pool of experience. One VB FO would on average have the hours of 10-20 cadets, they also have experience in airmanship that the cadets will never have.

So don't talk experience. Everyone flying knows Brizzi's main rwy is closed for work at nights, everyone except the QF allstars.
:ok:

[Colonel Blink]

That is all everyone needs to remember.

Lots of low time wannabe's looking to get out of instructing, who will do anything to get type rated on something with nacelles rather than props.

Likewise, lots of seats on wide bodied aircraft, with only enough bums around to sit in them. Come back to the original thread. Are Air Pacific actually going to be able fill 300 seats every day to the stated airports? If not then they will lose money (even more so if others join in, e.g. DJ) - and as for flights to the USA - please. United pulled out of flights to NZ because they couldn't make on it. Do you think Mr. Yankee Doodle Dandy is going to want to fly Air Pacific? Who will use the LAX service. They will have to be hellishly competitive and hope they can get the round the world backpacker set.:ok:

[Karunch]

Xkred27, I'm not Qf. If you read my post carefully, I was commenting on the type of incidents Virgin Blue encounters, not making a comparison to Qf. These type of incidents used to be the sole domain of private pilots (taxiing over chocks sort of thing).

Virgin Blue's poor standards reputation extends well beyond Australia's shores. Cheers,

[Al E. Vator]

Karunch...are you not in the real world with your posts?
QF not only onverran a runway in Bangkok, they recently ran off a runway in Darwin. They also got a stall warning/stick shaker on approach to land during a S/O-F/O handover. They also tried to fly to Bangkok on standby instruments in a 747-400 (entire take-off roll to 25000ft with no primary instruments). Repeated incidents of 737's landing unspooled and/or with final flap selection at extremely low level. Who are the cowboys???
Have you heard of LOSA?
Years ago a domestic aircraft tried to land on a road in Mackay - and what did a Qantas aircraft try to do last month? Do we not learn from history?
Virgin have done rather well I think, given they have been expanding exponentially and only in existence for a couple of years.
Qantas have been around much, much longer, you would have hoped they would have it perfected by now. Their flight safety incidents and related culture appear to be deteriorating not improving.

[Sperm Bank]

Karunch I suspect you of a wind up but alas your less than intelligent perspective is somewhat distorted. You quite obviously have no idea of what a STANDARD is. Possibly one of your friends may have conveyed inaccurate info to you which you thought you could act on.

The incidents you refered to DID happen and quite obviously are not covered up. You read about them did you not? Along with the PLETHORA of QANTAS mishaps over the years, most of us chose to learn from these mistakes, Not sit at a computer and blast off baseless, unfounded drivel.

You would not have any idea how many QF stuff ups have never made it to the media over the years. I will not give you the satisfaction (or lack there of) by informing you of just a few. It is none of your business! If you ever get into the real world of airline flying, both here and overseas, you will drastically alter your mindless opinion.

Incidents happen on a daily basis here in Oz and O.S. When they happen we deal with them. DJ and QF drivers are no different in that regard.How on earth you would ahve NAY idea re the standards at Virgin would be interesting to know. If you are using MEDIA reports, my god you are desperate!

When you have operated in airlines both here and abroad, come back and lecture us on STANDARDS, I would be very keen to hear your opinion!

[Gnadenburg]

Sperm Bank

I don't think Krunch was lecturing.

Your last line is kind of stupid because I think he has.(non 89)

We all draw on the anecdotal from colleagues who fly with VB. These people are more than qualified to give an opinion-exEK CX KD ect- on a comparison of standards. You don't have to have incidents every day to have the reputation of a laid back circus.

I think there was some anecdotal in Karunch's posts from serving VB captains.

[Karunch]

Sperm Bank et Al,

Try to take a step back. If airline pilots are missing pitot covers on pre-flight inspections, taxiing around an Msl aerodrome with 500ft indicated on the Pfd, or operating with crew members who have difficulty reading altimeters, surely this is a problem. Regardless of whose name is on the tail. Once again, this is not a comparison with Qf.

Perhaps instead of asking me if I've heard of Losa, you should be asking the Dj safety department (clearly they have not, and do not want to). And it doesn't take a statistician to establish here is no comparison between Qf & Dj given the disparity between their operating environments and the number of sectors operated. Anecdotal evidence perhaps, but the Dj external check & trainers I believe are amply qualified, and do, pass comment (and not in Dj's favour). With personal experience operating for both Australian & overseas carriers, reading these reports makes me wonder if I've stumbled upon the safety site of a developing nation.

Australian airlines have enjoyed a reputation for safety that many (including myself) have traded upon favourably. Sadly, this is being eroded by some of the rank amateurs now operating in this benign environment. Cheers,

[Capn Laptop]

Crunch,

Your speaking out of your arse.

You obviously have a one eyed view of DJ and nothing anyone says will convince you that you are wrong.

So there is no point in discussing it beyond saying that I take your comments as a personal insult.

Have a crack at the company by all means but leave the good reputation of the drivers alone - they do not deserve your vile comments

[heavyjetguy]

For once and for all call a spade a spade. The majority of the DJ pilots are the bottom of the barrell. Couldn't get a job in a real airline due to being poor pilots, no education or the psyc test got them.

You lower the standard of aviation jet flying by taking such poor conditions. Thats all your worth. You guys are pathetic.

[Gnadenburg]

Heavyjet

That's a big call for a fellow flying for China Airlines!

Call sign "Dynasty" or "Die Nasty"?

The conditions on offer weren't so good when I had a look 12 months ago. In comparison to CX/KA wouldn't you be the Virgins of the South China Sea?

Nice wind up.

[Colonel Blink]

into a we hate/love DJ/QF depending who you work for.

On the subject of China Airlines (and Air Pacific) - I would not let my dog fly on either never mind my family. I would trust DJ anf QF (but wouldn't fly QF as I like hosties that actually smile and are under 50)

[xkred27]

heavyjetloser, you are a tottle f---wit!!!

Enjoy living in the third world do we?

You must think your pretty good pilot compared with the local CAL
guys.

I havn't decided what to do this weekend in sunny Brizzie,
watch the Reds, Broncos or the Lions. What excitement will you be up to in Taipei. Enjoy all your cash!!!!

:D Get lost wan@er

[Next Generation]

Hey heavyjetguy

For once and for all call a spade a spade. The majority of the DJ pilots are the bottom of the barrell. Couldn't get a job in a real airline due to being poor pilots, no education or the psyc test got them.

Firstly, for someone with such a good education, barrel has only one l.

Secondly, I am assuming that by a REAL airline you are referring to QANTAS. If this is the case, then the reason that I couldn't get a job with them is not that I am a poor pilot, have no education or couldn't pass the psych test. The fact is that I never applied to them because I did not want to work for QANTAS. I don't like their elitist attitude, and I wanted to fly domestically. I have a higher standard of education than most pilots, and an IQ of over 150, so the reasons that you gave were inaccurate.

You lower the standard of aviation jet flying by taking such poor conditions. Thats all your worth. You guys are pathetic.

My standard of jet flying is a personal attribute which is not dictated by salary. Are you intimating that if QANTAS reduces pilot pay scales, their pilots will fly to a lower standard?

I think we all know who is pathetic.

[Pete Conrad]

This is fantastic, better than any comedy series I've seen on TV!!

Virgin I beleive are doing quite well with saftey, they have applied alot of what came out of the LOSA, have had Boeing audits which they were shown to come out trumps.

I say good on Virgin for at least recognising safety deficiencies and doing something about it unlike the table thunping arrogant tools that work in QF.

And to top it all off, you have a bunch of half baked, aero club, PPL holders flying around in 717's, the same clowns that couldn't get into any other airline so they bought a 1900 rating, and now are trying their hardest to prang a 717.

[Sperm Bank]

Krunch and Heavy. Not too sure what you guys are trying to achieve but I think you are wasting your time. Heavy that would probably rank as one of the dumbest all time posts, alas I know you are winding up.... nice one.

Alot of the 70's and earlyish 80's pilots (and some of the newer generation) think they are the greatest specimens on earth. Gentlemen there is more than one right way to fly an a/c and just because we don't adopt your neanderthal standard, does not in any way mean it is not as good or BETTER. Many of the neo-lithic practices of the by-gone era have proven to be unsafe and /or not as efficient as MODERN practices.

These FACTS obviously are a thorn in the side of some protagonists.. but get over it lads, it's not all bad. Sure there are plenty of young lads flying jets in virgin, BIG DEAL. Just because some of you losers were denied that privelige does not imply the rest of the planet can not do it.

I guess the good thing is many of you septeganarian types will be gone in a few years, then we wont have to put up with any more of your diatribe.

Enjoy the remainder of your short lives!

[Sooty]

If you find the 'East Enders' soapie getting a bit lame you know you can always log on to the Dunnunda & Godzone forum for a good catfight. Honestly I haven't heard such bitchiness since I had to babysit my 13 year olds slumber party!!

I think there is a bit too much assuming that most of the stirrers are from QANTAS. I would say these are people who can't get a job with VB and are bitter about it. Either that or they are out of the country, would love to come back but won't go to VB because of the lesser pay and are therefore bitter about it because they want to come home.

Times are a changing, pay will start coming down. Airlines are in the bottom 5% of profitable industries yet get paid in the top 5%. Something is wrong, after all you don't need to be a brain surgeon to operate an aeroplane.

By the way comparing VB with the rest of the world, it isn't really that bad when you consider the standard of life you get. The only bad thing I think is that you have to pay for the endorsement.

Good luck to all of you

(P.S. Maybe someone should just start a thread and let all the scabs, '89ers ,QF's, DJ'ers and anyone else just have a big all out brawl and keep all the other threads along the course they were intended)

[downwind]

Guys,

In my own opinion there are both good and bad pilots in both QF and DJ.

Each who would never get in if they didn't have some one inside pushing for them (only some applicants)

But what I don't like is how QF make a science out pilot selection, it should be fair and efficient to the current set of applicants.

[huan hung lo]

Sooty,

I am not sure that you have a good grasp on this profit thing.

You say that airlines are in the bottom 5% of profitable industries. What the hell is that supposed to mean and how does it justify lower wages?

If you had said that they were in the top 5% of UNprofitable industries then you might have a case.

Thats the kind of logic that would see you fail QF's psych test very spectacularly.

**** man,using your logic I think every CEO worthy of his/her position would announce massive losses in all types of industry.

Come to think of it, cooking the books is not altogether unheard of is it?

:ooh:

[Buster Hyman]

:D :D :D

You blokes crack me up!!!

:D :D :D

[Ralph the Bong]

What a load of childish, moronic pig swill this lot is. With such immaturity, I wouldn't F#$%^& lend some of you c#$%^& my f#$%^ car let alone let you fly my family around. :*

[Sooty]

huan hung lo

Sorry mate, already passed it. Also have passed it with Britannia in the UK which is more intensive.

The reason I didn't take the job is that I got into aviation because I like flying, not for the ego of putting other people down!!. At the time I didn't want to sit 4 years as SFO. I'm sure QANTAS is a great job and as you should have read from my last post, I was actually sticking up for QF because I didn't think that anyone with a decent job would spend their time knocking everyone else.

The psych test is not the be all and end all and I believe there is starting to be a re think in their methods by some of the major airlines. I'm sure you would know many prats who have got through. It just isn't practical. As for educational standards I think anyone who passes an ATPL meets the grade. As I said before you don't have to be a brain surgeon to fly an aeroplane. Good CRM and an ego free flight deck is far more important.

As with regards to my comment on airline profitability (didn't realise I was being psychoanalyzed!) this came from the aviation section of a UK newspaper. Basically saying that a shakeup is in order as lack of profits do not justify the high pay.

[Ralph the Bong]

But really, my view is that anyone who holds a CPL or above and is charged with operating an aircraft in commercial operations should be deserving of some respect as a person and in particular, IN THIS FORUM. To go on and on and on about various incidents and attribute them to some company idiosyncracy is counterproductive. This sort of attitude creates an environment whereby people make a mistake and then keep quiet about it. Then NO-ONE LEARNS. Have you ever mis-read a frequency on a chart? Forgoten to turn of the strobes after landing? Missed a support call? No? Then you must be Superman! An error is an error is an error. and we ALL make them. I would love to hear the honest story from the guys who mistook the road for a RWY or took off from SYD with the IRSs unaligned. They aren't dumb people, maybe I could LEARN from their mistake. I could swap them one or two personal anecdotes for sure. And remember that any mistake that doesn't result in a smoking hole is a cheap one. I am sure that these people have engaged in great introspection and if you are a TRUE professional, then you should act to create an environment from whereby people can LEARN. So There..Ya F@#$%^& W#$%^s

[Corona]

xkred27 have you lived in the so called 3rd WORLD if not pull your head in

Ask yourself what would it be like to fly out of the TRAINING AREA and also,

The arses are alot smaller up here, alot better package.
Life is not all about football

Enjoy the confounds of the East Coast

[Gnadenburg]

longhaul

CAL didn't add up when i was offered a 2nd interview and it doesn't add up now.

8-14 days home a month reads Australian tax and a strenghtening Aussie dollar has meant a 20% pay cut in the last 6 months.

Just doesn't add up.

Must admit this is my first AFL season away from home and I miss it terribly. How's Eddie? Sammy? Don't miss the toothless Collingwood army.

If you have a way of circumventing Australian tax laws re the Gen Dec I wouldn't boast about here! QF boys get funny at the hint of anybody doing better.

[longjohn]

Despite all the vitriole I find one thing stands out here.

In the 'old' days of Ansett and Australian, East West and so on, right through to pre - 9/11 and just AN & QF there existed a level of prefessional respect between Australian Airline pilots.

Nowadays this seems to have been replaced by mistrust and a total lack of respect. Comments along the lines of 'you are not good enough cos you failed our process' were few and far between only a few years ago.

Now it seems a standard.

Whist no one should hold the Virgin pilots responsible for capitalising on an opportunity, it does appear that the emergence of the low cost airline has created two seperate camps of Australian pilots.

Time will tell if there will ever be a reconciliation, however in the meantime all we can expect is a string of insults levelled at one another.

One thing is for sure, unless or until there is a major incident / accident involving pilot error the arguments on both sides are simply hyperbole.

I sincerely hope to see more hyperbole and no more.

[Sperm Bank]

Ralph the bong. Your last post was spot on. Whatever you are smoking can I have some?

[Sooty]

sperm bank, I have to agree with you.

Ralph the Bong, credit to you for a good posting.

Also to you too longjohn, maybe we could finish this thread on a positive note (even if it is now totally unrelated to the original thread!!)

[huan hung lo]

I don't understand you sooty.

Did you make the decision not to work for QF before or after doing the psych tests?

Or was it during the psych tests?

Presumably an intelligent individual such as I am sure that you are, would have been aware that you start with the rank of S/O.

If that didn't sit right with you then why bother?

By the way I don't work for QF.

My points about that silly profit analogy still stand irrespective of its author.

[Keg]

What is really sad to see about this thread is that we have missed the point. Pay, conditions and corporate culture are somewhat inter linked but at the end of the day, one set of pilots trained in Australia will probably be pretty close to another set of pilots trained in Australia.

There are things that amaze me about DJ just as there are things about QF that amaze the average DJ crew. The point is, we shouldn't be wasting our time looking at how crap we think the other side is lest we forget to keep our eye on our own airspeed and end up spinning in. I've seen some truly 'interesting' things from watching DJ aircraft, I've seen equally 'interesting' things from watching QF aircraft. We are all subject to threats, we all make errors and we all have lapses. Sometimes our error management is up to the task, sometimes it isn't.

Interesting thing about LOSA though. The more prescriptive your documentation, the greater possibility of stuffing it up. Not once have I ever not been stable at 500'. Now, say a crew was doing 218 with the speedbrake out as the track miles to run ticked to 11 miles. Under LOSA that is an UAS (if you don't know what that is then you shouldn't be mentioning LOSA anyway!)even if the aircraft was at 2500' and therefore close to the right energy level!. So where once upon a time nothing would even have crossed your mind, now I've had a UAS (depending on the tolerances which incidentally are generally set by the airline undertaking the audit!)

So whats my point about all this. If we keep laughing at each other for the stuff ups, if we stick with the hindsight bias of believing that we could never make those sorts of mistakes, if we keep trying to prove who is the bigger, better, bold pilot, then we run a HUGE chance of continuing to make the same mistakes.

Finally, this thread makes me sad. I can't believe I share the sky with such narrow minded, high and mighty people who believe that just because they wear the uniform of a particular carrier that they must be better than those that wear the uniform of another. I think it's sad that because a different carrier has had it's share of stuff ups that their airline is somehow immune. I guess the stats are showing that we're all as bad as each other. This thread is yet more proof of that! :(

[Sperm Bank]

Keg I agree with you there. I have taken the bait on more than one occassion and I guess that is a flaw in my character that needs attention. I do find it hard to hold back at times when obvious inaccuracies are posted or dejected misfits plaster vitriolic diatribe in here. It just aint right!

That said, they will never go away and leave us in peace. Per head of population Oz has by far the biggest ratio of morons in sky. Absolutely no doubt about it. I never witnessed this sort of garbage in Europe or the States. Perhaps by virtue of our isolation we feel the need to berate each other to convey our point more clearly without fear of retribution. I don't know what the reason is but like yourslef I am disgusted with some of the contributions.

As I say by default I may have been on occassion guilty of adding fuel to the fire. Mostly in defense of collegues on both sides of the fence but all the same, guilty.

I take your post on board for future application.

Cheers, SPERMATOSA!

[Sooty]

huan hung lo

edit your profile so I can send you a private message. I think this thread has gone on long enough discussing everyone elses trivialities.:ok:

[dingo084]

Er! Um! but is there any risk of getting this thread back onto the original subject.:confused:

If not, lock the damn waste of space and get rid of it..........:yuk:

ding