Aircraft off runway at SOU

[Report FIR boundary]

A medium turboprop (possibly a Dash 8 ?) appeared to lose control following a heavy landing late on Sunday night and came off the Eastern side of runway 02 at Southampton. Several eye witnesses, emergency crews in attendance but no further details.

Was this one of the new Flybe aircraft?

[horn]

Scotair Dornier.

[carlos70]

I believe it was scotair

[giffy998]

It was a Scotairways flight, the 20:15 CB3885 from Amsterdam to Southampton and I was a passenger. Although I am not a pilot I am a very frequent flyer and it was clear from the heavy landing that something was not right before we veered off the right hand side of the runway.

I am not sure if we hit anything to the side of the runway but when we came to a stop we were facing almost back in the direction that we came. The aircraft was virtually full and some of the passengers were clearly very frightened. I think that one lady may have banged her head but otherwise nobody was hurt.

Despite the fact that I fly almost every week, I have never had any kind of serious incident such as this. I was very impressed with the speed that the emergency services arrived - it seemed as if it was almost instantaneous and wondered if the pilot had radioed ahead for them to be ready.

After they managed to get the aircraft back onto the runway the Captain said that his map had become caught in his steering during the landing and that had caused the aircraft to spin around.

Is this really possible? Perhaps a pilot would care to comment, I would not have thought that such a simple thing could have caused such a major event.

I suppose that these things must happen from time to time but it was very frightening from the back when we did not know what is going on.

[The Trappist]

According to the guys here at the Orval, it must have been a very strong map to cause this problem! (Normally made from high quality paper!)
No doubt by now, tea and a chat with the C.P.?

[wynned]

I fly the 737-500 and with over 3000 hours I have never seen a map that can't bend in two, also the flight would have been going for the ILS runway @ Southhampton and JET PLATES are like fax paper, they tare on me all the time, I think the pilot just mae a balls of the landing if it was me I would have said : ''We had to do it to avoid a flock of birds from going into the engines causing a fire''...

[Few Cloudy]

Na - it could happen if the guy has his docs on a knee board that then fouls the controls - or on a clip board which isn't stowed away.

Point made by Giffy 998 is very valid - little things can well cause accidents.

[Pilot Pete]

Map on a kneeboard in a commercial airliner? Does anybody put approach plates on a kneeboard? Sounds a bit strange to me.

PP

[Faire d'income]

Some aircraft have had problems with the nose wheel not being centred on touchdown. This obviously could cause the aircraft to veer but at touchdown speeds I would have thought the rudder would quickly overcome this. The map might have been a fib but if the nose was off-set for some reason and he had made the mistake of leaving a map on it he might not have been able to straighten it in time.

Glad everyone was ok.

[Colonel Blink]

Firstly I am not familiar with the type (or anything multi :D ), butAfter they managed to get the aircraft back onto the runway the Captain said that his map had become caught in his steering during the landing and that had caused the aircraft to spin around.

Presumably he was using Rudder to maintain direction. Something like a clipboard could cause the rudder pedals to be unable to be depressed fully to compensate for any problems with uneven braking/power. But also could this not be prevented by using more brakes on the other side (differential braking, couldn't think earlier)?

Surely the tiller (if it has one) would not be used till all wheels are on the floor and V = a speed for this? A recent safety bulletin over here showed how a stainless steel ballpoint pen managed to become stuck in the controls of an Aerobat and it was fortunate that it became unstuck before control was lost (and that the pilot had aerobatic skills). Could be something as mundane as that.

[brakedwell]

Perhaps the Dornier pilot was trying to shake a Spitfire off his tail

[witchdoctor]

Perhaps the map in question was the one he/she was using to plan their next Far East holiday or caravan trip to France? It was dropped after he/she spilled their cocktail on it whilst making a grab for the stewie perhaps.

Only kidding folks. Nice to have a pax that isn't all hysterical and seems to have given a fairly rational (and dare I say it - complimentary and positive) account of what took place, instead of the usual "I heard from a friend of mine who was there.....". Be interesting to see what did happen though.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

As one well-acquainted with the Dornier 328, I may be of some assistance. Steering in the 328 is done by a tiller on the captain's side. There is a space about big enough for a standard aircrew flight bag immediately outboard of each pilot's seat, and sometimes crew keep a heavy book of approach plates on top of their bag. If that book went forwards at high speed as it did in this case it could either hit the captain's arm and make him make a rapid jerk on the tiller or even hit the tiller itself if the captain's arm is on the steering yoke. Either situation could result in an undesireable and rapid steering action at high speed.

This is not a design error but merely a feature of the system. The answer is not to stamp on the brakes! The slight difficulty in this situation is that ScotAirways may have gone to considerable length to downplay the significance of what has happened. Therefore the AAIB may not have been informed despite a minor injury to a passenger and the necessary checks done on the undercarriage despite the aircraft leaving the runway and ending up on the grass. I understand the aircraft was back in operation almost immediately as the entry in the tech log did not reflect what actually happened.

No doubt one day somebody will start digging deep and finding out the real nature of the operation and when they do 'there may be trouble ahead'! I do not think there is a genuine desire to have unsafe practices, but there is a total lack of grasp as to what the minimum standards of flight safety are in a modern Western airline.

[Gaza]

No doubt one day somebody will start digging deep and finding out the real nature of the operation and when they do 'there may be trouble ahead'!

You mean as soon as they read this thread?;)

[hgrubb]

I thought a captain would have to do a report for the AAIB as a matter of course - going off the runway would be classed as a 'serious incident' according to the definition the AAIB use - says so on their website info unless i am reading too much

Has anyone else from SA refused to fly with the captain involved apart from the aforementioned FO?

[RatherBeFlying]

I guess it will be up to giffy998 to contact the AAIB. That should get the fertiliser going through the fan.

[eyeinthesky]

Another slant I heard on the story was that there was extensive TS activity around the airport.The D328 was trying to get off the runway quickly because there was a DH8 on short final who had had a short base leg to avoid a TS further out on final.

If true, it's a pity that a guy trying to assist a fellow professional should be harangued by some people on here!!

[Banana99]

what crock eyeinthesky! He didn't help his passengers did he?!?! They're his first priority.

[Red Aces Low]

Quite agree but I think that Norman has hit the nail on the head.

'there is a total lack of grasp as to what the minimum standards of flight safety are in a modern Western airline.'

This was a serious incident, in fact potentially a very serious incident - remember that SA (and therefore presumably this Captain) flies into LCY on a daily basis. The consequences of departing the runway at 90 degrees at high speed with deep water down each side do not bear thinking about.

The AAIB will not only look at the direct causes of this accident but also of the wider picture - SOP's, training, flight deck CRM etc.

I cannot believe that parttimer is correct and the airline has not launched its own internal enquiry or that the pilots are both still flying the line. As for the aircraft, if it has been checked out by engineering and suffered no damage then I guess most airlines would put it back into service asap.

Whatever the causes of this accident hopefully we can all learn something from it when the AAIB report is published.

[BeFlyBe]

I think that you may have missed the point here. Certainly this was a serious incident but word around the airport confirms what RatherBeFlying posted. Not only is there no internal investigation but there is no other form of investigation either. Just a concerted effort to cover things up at all costs.

Those of us fortunate enough to fly for professional airlines should think ourselves lucky that we are not in the position of these guys. And it is not just the Pilots either. The pressure on the engineers to repair the aircraft without documenting the real cause or extent of the damage in order to get the aircraft back into service the next day must have been immense.

What about the poor FO who probably has little choice to go along with this for fear of his job. I suppose that refusing to fly with the Captain concerned will at least enable him to retain his self respect - a great way to start your career.

Bring back the good old days when Captains were allowed to give FO's the occasional clip round the ear but never to compromise their professionalism.

[Doors to Automatic]

I am surprised there is no statutory obligation to inform the AAIB of incidents of this nature.

Many of the reports on the AAIB website invloving commercial aircraft are relatively minor compared to this one. There are numerous reports, for example, of collisions with ground service vehicles whilst the aircraft is stationary at the gate.

I would have though an aircraft departing the side of the runway at speed is far more serious?

[wessex watcher]

Ok, He made a mistake but he is not the first, This has all happened before in the USA except that the LH Wing struck the ground, The prop hit snapping off all the blades tips which then partly entered the passenger cabin. They bounced down the side of the aircraft and its now fitted with a scab patch which is 8ft long by 2.5 ft wide.
So give him a break he mannaged so save his passengers and the aircraft.
The same crew have flown together since, an MOR has been filed with the CAA.

All above board.

[Flap40]

I'd be interested to know if this is the same SA dornier that had all the fire engines out at EDI last Monday morning for a "Gear problem".
They did a gear down fly by and landed 5 minutes later. They then shut down on the turnoff and after the pins were inserted they were towed to the stand.

[Capt. Tango]

Sorry chaps but.... the CAA has been involved with MOR's etc and have done an investigation... so no need to go any further..... Lots of B*llsh*t being passed around by unhappy peeps....
Hello Norman Stanley Fletcher... hope to see you in Tango land very soon!!
Capt. Tango

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Captain Tango - you intrigue me!

I have to say that this is not an idle story but I am somewhat limited in my ability to answer lest I embarass individuals within the company who would wish to remain anonymous. Suffice to say that there is a great deal to be concerned about about this incident and other aspects of what is going on. This is not malcontent talk or idle rumour. My previous comments hold good. The MOR that was originally filed was a much watered-down version of the truth. If that subsequently changed due to pressures from pilots within the company, well and good. The fact remains that an effort was made to cover up what happened.

Parttimer - you should edit your post immediately to remove all reference to your source to save embarrassment to the individual you quoted as it could rebound on him in a big way. I hope it has not done so already.