Non-competitive Air New Zealand

[Kaptin M]

Ever wondered why Air New Zealand are struggling?

A search of one of Japan's biggest travel agents might give some indication for the reason travellers shy away.
Below is a table to various N.Z. destinations from Osaka, highlighting how UN-competitve Air Sheep is. Prices are in Japanese yen:

NEW ZEALAND
AUCKLAND JUN. JUL. AUG. SEP.
Malaysia Airlines \55,000- \82,000- \92,000- \79,000-
Korean Air \70,000- \69,000- \85,000- \83,000-
Singapore Airlines \77,000- \98,000- \126,000- \126,000-
Thai Airways \84,000- \84,000- \111,000- \111,000-
Cathay Pacific \83,000- \85,000- \106,000- \95,000-
Qantas Airways \99,000- \94,000- \117,000- \117,000-
Air New Zealand \102,000- \102,000- \133,000- \133,000-
Showcase Malaysia (Air Ticket + Hotel) \70,000- \70,000- \70,000- \70,000-

CHRISTCHURCH JUN. JUL. AUG. SEP.
Singapore Airlines \77,000- \98,000- \126,000- \126,000-
Cathay Pacific+Qantas Airways \98,000- \100,000- \121,000- \110,000-
Qantas Airways \99,000- \94,000- \117,000- \117,000-
Air New Zealand \116,000- \112,000- \143,000- \143,000-

WELLINGTON JUN. JUL. AUG. SEP.
Cathay Pacific+Qantas Airways \98,000- \100,000- \121,000- \110,000-
Qantas Airways \99,000- \94,000- \117,000- \117,000-
Air New Zealand \116,000- \112,000- \143,000- \143,000-

For the record, QANTAS' prices to Australia were approximately median for the various airlines.

[kev2002]

Well they still seem to have pretty healthy loads from Japan and I don't think it's totally accurate to say Air NZ are struggling.

What's your point???

[Buster Hyman]

Oh well, if they're doing alright, then they can pay the Ansett staff what they owe them then!:rolleyes:

[cribble]

Its probably a bit why a dog licks its balls: because it can. All Japan/NZ Air NZ flights are direct,and, while I,m not absolutely certain, I suspect most of the flights you cite, M, are via somewhere else. People just can't be fcuked going via HKG, TPE, SIn, etc, to get to NZ.
edited, despite proof reading, for sp!:O

[Colonel Blink]

Fares adjust according to availability - as Air NZ reduced capacity, they must have increased the loads in the aircraft.

Also, how many of seats are pre-booked by tour ops who have consolidated ticketing - they will not be paying those fares. Our Japanese friends also have a habit of doing package tours. I remember being the only non Japanese passenger on a 146 from CHC - ROT. They fly into one centre, do the tour of each island and depart elsewhere (e.g. in CHC, out AKL)

As for Ansett.... history, that's all.

[Buster Hyman]

Ahh, yes Colonel. That explains everything! :*

[Kaptin M]

Almost without exception, checking other destinations, airlines operating direct to their home base, are the cheapest - which is logical, as operating costs are reduced immensely.

Yet if you compare Air New Zealand's fare structure on the routes indicated, they are at least NZD200 more than the next most expensive.

I have travelled several times (on the clapped out 767's, with the wafer-thin, one-piece seats), and at those times the load factors were around the 75-80% mark.

My point is kev, Air New Zealand is NOT competitive wrt fares.
Their reputation (for service) isn't anything special, so why drive customers AWAY, with exorbitant ticket prices?

Perhaps the same logic that had ANZ rush in and buy Ansett (when they couldn't afford to) is the one used to determine ticket pricing!

[CI300]

Kap, if so bad why fly with them?

Also could you give us the source of these prices and load factors you list?

Just had a quick look at SYD-AKL-SYD (being the home bases) Date picked at random.
Leaving on the morning of 27th jul , returning next morning.

Internet fares from qf/nz web sites.
I dont think either include taxes.. Both in AU$ (return fares)

Air NZ
$ 1392.00 aircraft = 733 out and 763 back to syd.
QF
$ 1494.56 aircraft = 734 both ways.

I would rather travel in a 'clapped out' 767at least one way, than both ways in a sardine can.

[RaTa]

CI300.....I, like most would not have the money to throw away, so I guess the 737 would win! :D

[kev2002]

Kap

After reading a number of reports from various websites it seems that the large majority of customers disagree with your comments about poor service on Air NZ.

From what I gather you seem to step on Air NZ with the intent of looking for the negatives. Guess what? Flying on QF is no picnic. They've just managed to draw our attention away from surly F/A's and groundstaff by installing PTV's etc.

Finally, why do you care how Air NZ perform? You seem to have it in for them from the start. Fly QF to ENZED if Air NZ is such a horror.

[nzer]

All airlines charge what a route/market will stand - why give seats away if you can get a premium for them ? If ANZ is doing smart business on its Japan route, good on them. If Kapitan M doesn't like ANZ - and it seems to sneak through that he has some baggage in this regard - then he has freedom of choice.. (no puns intended)

[Fordman]

Hey Buster, I suggest you ask Newscorp for some money regards Ansett. They are the one's who raped it and then suckered Air NZ at top dollar. Or you could even ask the Oz politicians for some money, as they are the one's who backed out of the open skies deal forcing Air NZ to look at Ansett. Amazing how short some memories are

[Buster Hyman]

Yes they did, but they weren't the ones holding the hot potato were they?

So, because Newscorp "sucked" ANZ in, they bear no responsibility. Is that law in NZ? And because the politicians in Oz did a backflip & your gutless pollies were impotent to do anything about it, then that's AN's fault too?

Unbelievable!:rolleyes:

Have a nice day at work.

[cnsnz]

Why are we still carrying on with this Ansett Crap 2yrs on?
I was at Compass 1 & 2 and ten years on we still haven't been paid everything that we were owed.Ansett is dead and gone get over it and move ahead like the staff at compass did, they to believed that they had a good airline and stood behind them. They moved onto other jobs and got on with there lives it's about time some other tried the same.

[Don Esson]

Kapitan,

You stick to the driving old chap and leave the experts to do the pricing. Your analysis is exactly why pilots should not run airlines as it's a sure way to go under before you know it.

Please don't be offended - it.s yhe truth.

As TJ would say. 'oo roo.

:D :D :D

[Buster Hyman]

Ooops! Sorry, didn't realise I had to wait 10 years before I was eligible to complain!

Well, just like Compass staff, most people have gotten on with their lives, thank you for asking. However, I know of at least one Compass 1&2 staff member that hasn't been able to hold down a regular job since it collapsed. Don't make the mistake of assuming that everyone has the ability to just get on with their lives!

My beef is the fact that a parent company can just let a subsiduary collapse & virtually walk away without accepting any responsibility. Blaming Newscorp or the Australian Govt. for their actions can only carry so much weight.

All care, no responsibilty.....ANZ:suspect:

[Don Esson]

Buster.

Sorry but I think history will show that ANZ bought a poisoned chalice. if you'll excuse the mixed metaphor. AN was a s weak as water before NZ's outright purchase. With three or four domestic operators - Qantas, Ansett, Impulse and Virgin Blue - in a very small but competitive market, it was odds on the the weaker two would fall, This is what happened. The NZ shareholders are the ones to be asking the really hard uestions, as an employee you are just the hired help with few if any rights.

I know it's tough but it is really time to move on. How many employees of other Oz companies that have gone bust have had Govt support to protect their entitlements. Redundancy pay is paid when a company no longer needs you. When there is no company, why should anyone get redundancy? Don't be like the mob fom 1989. It's over. Finis. Sorry.

[hoodooguru]

ANZ! What a proud company. A country that's biggest tourist attraction smells like a fart and a national emblem's a bird that can't fly and an art forger prime minister. It's about time ANZ paid their dues.

[cnsnz]

Why is it that some people have to take to ridicule a whole country because of the action of a then private company?
Alot of people in NZ believed that the Goverment should have let Air NZ fight for there own survival,but like the australian govt they could not lose face by having there national carrier go under. And will most likely do anything to ensure that it survives.
We could all trade insults and run down each others countries ,politians,sportspeople,businesses of which each of us has some that probably deserve it but come on I thought we are supposed to be professional people.

[Kaptin M]

The source of the prices, C1300 was the internet website of No 1 travel, on of the largest travel companies in Japan - the load factors were, as I said, my own observation.

It's a sad situation when valid, easily proven points are raised - in this case I have stated the Air New Zealand's pricing on the KIX-CHC/AKL sectors are the HIGHEST of all of those offered on this website.
And that the seats in the (old) Air N.Z. 767's are wafer-thin, and one piece (meaning when the seat back is reclined, the seat under your backside also slides). That may be okay for the short domestic sectors, but on a flight of around 10 hours plus, they are damned uncomfortable!

And so nzer, after having tried your national airline 3 times on this route (hoping that the 1st or 2nd time might just have been a one-off), I have done precisely what you advise, and DON'T fly with them.
Air New Zealand has thus LOST 3 customers.....oh yes, my family travels with me as well. I have no "baggage" to "sneak through" wrt Air N.Z. - I have never applied to work for them, and do not agree that it was solely their fault that Ansett collapsed - imo, Abeles and Murdoch were the main culprits there.
I flew with Air New Zealand (as a pax) when they operated DC8's, and was quite impressed by them then.

I don't believe it's any secret that ANZ is struggling, yet appear to be pricing themselves OUT of the market, when one compares the fares other companies charge.
As one who has a vested interest in New Zealand, and who travels there 3 or 4 times each year, I am keen to see the country succeed with revenue raised from the tourist dollar, and that means the national airline needs to present something far better than Air New Zealand currently offers, to grab those first dollars.
Kia Ora.

[Knulp]

:p

Thih ixtra is for thih boiled lollies to suck on discint.

[CI300]

Kap, I checked out the fares site you mentioned and found the prices to be a little different to yours. I would suggest that its all a bit meaningless and sad to make bold statements based on a snapshot of prices.

NEW ZEALAND

AUCKLAND JUL. AUG. SEP.
Malaysia Airlines \82,000- \92,000- \79,000-
Korean Air \69,000- \85,000- \83,000-
Singapore Airlines \98,000- \126,000- \126,000-
Thai Airways \84,000- \111,000- \111,000-
Cathay Pacific \85,000- \106,000- \95,000-
Qantas Airways \94,000- \117,000- \117,000-
Air New Zealand \83,000- \133,000- \133,000-
Showcase Malaysia \70,000- \70,000- \70,000-

CHRISTCHURCH JUL. AUG. SEP.
Singapore Airlines \98,000- \126,000- \126,000-
Cathay Pacific \100,000- \121,000- \110,000-
Qantas Airways \94,000- \117,000- \117,000-
Air New Zealand \93,000- \143,000- \143,000-

WELLINGTON JUL. AUG. SEP.
Cathay Pacific \100,000- \121,000- \110,000-
Qantas Airways \94,000- \117,000- \117,000-
Air New Zealand \93,000- \143,000- \143,000-

I also did a google search on seat pitch which gave me the following.
Thai Airways
80"
50"
34"

Air New Zealand
80"
50"
34"

Malaysia Airlines
76"
50"
34"

Cathay Pacific
79"
60"
32"

Singapore Airlines
78"
58"
32"

Qantas Airways
78"
50"
31"

I will conceed that the Air NZ IFE (lack of)sucks. As does the lack of full sleeper seats.

[Kaptin M]

Interesting, C1300, but I see that at the time I checked, the June prices were also included - it's "interesting" to note that the July prices for Air New Zealand have been REDUCED by some JPY20,000 (about NZD300) whilst the other airlines' prices have remained fixed.

I suspect that Air New Zealand is indeed finding it difficult to sell seats, when their fare structure is so much higher than the competitors, and that as departure time nears the panic button is pushed.

Compare the August and September prices that YOU have provided, C1300 - they are exactly the same as those I showed, and support my assertion, which I feel is far from"a bit meaningless and sad".

Believe me, I have no agenda, other than a genuine observation from a consumer point of view, that Air New Zealand which operate old equipment (B767's) charge a LOT more, but offer far less in terms of comfort.

The seat pitch might be the equivalent of others (in QANTAS' case the aircraft is now an Australian 767), however the DESIGN of the seat is a real shocker!
If you can imagine a very thin mattress that has 2/3rds bent at about 80 degrees for a back support with the remaining 1/3rd to sit on as your seat, and to then recline the back you must slide the part under your buttocks forward, you have an image of ANZ's seats.

[nzer]

Kapitan M, you say :

"I suspect that Air New Zealand is indeed finding it difficult to sell seats, when their fare structure is so much higher than the competitors, and that as departure time nears the panic button is pushed"

You seem to have a very poor understanding of how seats are marketed - as "departure time approaches" there is no "pushing of panic buttons" rather the remaining seats are in effect "auctioned".

There is no one price for sector - seats are sold in blocks - some to wholesalers, who get a price based on numbers of seats and how far in advance the purchase is made - some are at a variety of flexible fares, some at fixed fares. As another contributor has said, you cannot in fact take "snapshot" and have it reflect "the fare". The reality is that ANZ's Japan business (SAR's spill overs notwithstanding) is doing very nicely thank you - and the variety of marketing and pricing strategies employed contributes to this.

I travel to Europe once a year, business class, and I research the best deals - they are generally in Thai/MAS - SIN, QF, and ANZ are more expensive - so I do not travel ANZ longhaul - when I do however (one recent Business class return to LHR, NZD 7500, in case you are interested) it was very difficult to get aseat on the days required due to HIGH DEMAND.

Pricing, marketing, market positioning etc are complex issues, and if you don't like ANZ as a corporate entity, fine, but please, find some better basis for your denigration, or at least do more thorough research into the whole topic.

[stillalbatross]

Well, I for one got totally screwed by Qantas as did many other kiwis but I've got better things to do than sit here and bleat about it. Some on this thread would blame Air NZ if their lawnmower didn't start this morning. This slagging off of Air NZ, can we apply some balance to it? I know they are undercapitalised, the fleet in ancient and the marketshare must be slowly eroding away especially in business/first where the money is. But can you truly say Qantas is a role model in a completely open market? And what about the Japanese. The whole playing field is so uneven, with Govt intervention etc.

[nzer]

STILL ALBATROSS - "The Fleet is ancient" - All the B737's are less than 5 years old - 20 A320's ex factory begin delivery in October - B744's 5-15 years old - industry average - B767-200's - VERY OLD - I agree - all being retired within the next 2 years - B767 300's - 10 years on average - a bit better than industry average - can't see where you get "ancient" from ?

[Rongotai]

I'm in Holland right now. Had to pay MORE to get to LHR QF because I couldn't get a (cheaper) seat on NZ for any of of the three days that I could have chosen. Sorry about the logic. I know a seat you can't get can't be cheaper. Just making a point.

BTW - I had an empty seat next to me all the way WLG-SYD-SIN-LHR. My colleague, who flew NZ AKL-LAX-LHR, is complaining that she couldn't find an empty space anywhere on either sector.