View Full Version : PAL HK: Aborted takeoff...in a taxiway!?

21st Jun 2003, 23:17
Haven't gotten much hard facts on this but I heard from the grapevine here that a PAL Airbus330 or 340 announced over the radio in Hongkong that it was aborting the takeoff...because it was lined up on the taxiway!! HK authorities have asked the Phil ATO to investigate this and to shed some light on how this could have happened.

Let's try to dig this up 'coz the company concerned has had too many safety violations unreported. The incident in Guam never made it in the papers.

pontius's pa
22nd Jun 2003, 01:03
Because of the airfield layout you would have to be most inattentive to achieve this at CLK and I am told that apart from the odd rain storm the weather's been pretty good the last few days.

Am I being over sensitive if I comment that it seems that Navitimer's tone has the touch of an axe to grind about it?

I used to fly PR quite a lot and although some of the domestic flights can be a bit sporting because of poor aids and short runways, I always found the international flights as good as any.

Please enlighten me; which organisation exactly is the Phil ATO?

Random Electron
22nd Jun 2003, 02:14
"Phil ATO" is the Philippine Air Transport Office.

It's the Philippine version of the CAA or FAA

24th Jun 2003, 00:03
Not much of an axe to grind,Pontius pa, but if you nearly lost a loved one and the airline has to be nonchalant about it, well, I leave it at that.

As you said it, one has to be extremely inattentive to get lost there, which is the point I was trying to drive at. Most of their incidents were because of people getting lost somewhere inside the cockpit. Don't you think they have to do something about it?

Just diggin' for facts! ;)

24th Jun 2003, 11:21
Is it any wonder that pax are getting a bit more selective about their choice of airline?

24th Jun 2003, 11:35

the reality is that the majority at the PAX are selecting by the
price and not by the quality. That is only a minority who is
cautious what outfit they select to trust with all they have :
Their life.

24th Jun 2003, 13:25
Maybe some PAL pilot can help me out here, but I've heard that PAL does NOT promote pilots on the basis of seniority (i.e., experience) but rather on how well he or she brown-noses to the higher-ups. So it's entirely possible that some of you share the wild blue with "pilots" who don't really belong in their seats. Normal occurrence with scab labor? Just my humble $0.02, of course.

nothing stock
24th Jun 2003, 16:06
navitimer, you seem to take pleasure in spreading near mishaps by one particular airline.

"don't you think they have to do something about it?"

yeah, right.

grow up!

25th Jun 2003, 06:03
The Gaum incident was covered in some detail in flight international after it happened !

25th Jun 2003, 15:07

Just talked to a friend there in your ATO. He said that it was true and that the guys involved have been suspended till further notice.

stock, let him be. he's giving us the news right? Or is he hitting a nerve somewhere?:rolleyes:

nothing stock
25th Jun 2003, 16:24
nope, too far away in this smelly pier to have a nerve hit. duh, couldn't care less as a matter of fact. but do check his previous posts. it's rather baffling how bringing negative news (about one ariline) has developed into some sort of a fetish for him! maybe, just maybe, he's the one whose nerve got chopped off.

A/P Disc
25th Jun 2003, 16:43

Seniority has got nothing to do with experience.

There are many companies who have got very experienced
people (even test pilots) at the bottom of the list because
they joined a company later than others. Promoting people
soley on seniority is not very wise.

26th Jun 2003, 11:22
A/P Disc
You're right, of course. But I was referring to Philippine Airlines in particular where a pilot with approximately 4000 hours TOTAL was promoted to 747 captain over more SENIOR pilots with over THREE TIMES the flying time. Mind, this has happened at PAL several times over the past several years. Do you know of any other airline in the world where this would happen?

26th Jun 2003, 15:37
:D There goes the neighborhood;)

A/P Disc
29th Jun 2003, 22:25

I agree. I misunderstood your line of thought.

I do know airlines where this happens.In fact
politics in very often involved even within large airlines.
I know of a larger European company where helicopter
hours have preference over jet hours in obtaining a captain's
postition on a jet.Guess what; many senior pilots in the
flight department are former helicopter pilots thus securing "old buddies" become captain sooner than the rest. It used to be within KAL that former airforce pilots got automatic captain's positions when entering the company soley on their former rank!
We saw and still see what a mess it is there.

Politics can make or break you in aviation and unfortunately
it is rampant even within large airlines.


Kaptin M
30th Jun 2003, 07:29
Keep digging on this one one gents, I for one will be interested to know the full (well, as near to full as we get) course of events.

The Guam CFIT and lucky escape didn't receive anywhere near the publicity it should have.

Phillipine Airlines KNEW that they were replacing their experienced pilots with INexperience when they replaced them during the strike a couple of years ago.
They did long term, inestimable damage with an industrial decision that has - and obviously still does now - have an economic impact.
A negotiated settlement with the then workforce would have been a far, far cheaper option than this perilous course they are now treading.
Scab labour might seem like the quick fix, but a pilot who needs to scab to obtain/maintain employment generally does so because he is unemployable elsewhere.

As cheap as PAL are selling their tickets for now, I for one, no longer fly with them, nor will allow my family to, because of the SAFETY factor.

30th Jun 2003, 23:37
It was an A340 taxing from the cargo apron to 07L, at night with 2000m viz. The tower did not know anything about till they aborted half way down taxiway A.

mr Q
1st Jul 2003, 21:25
What was the Guam incident??

1st Jul 2003, 22:10
This (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=77058&highlight=guam) one, I believe.

2nd Jul 2003, 13:33
In KAL they got a credit for the hours but not a direct entry to
the left seat. The Ceju-guys had voted recently there to break
that down and only the hours with KAL should count. The practice
in the past years was allways to become a Captain in a F100 or
in a B737, not in a widebody direct by requirement of more then 4.000 hrs in total (incl. military) and 350 TO and LDGs in KAL-ops.
They need to fly nearow body to gain that amount of landings
as FO because in a widebody longrange they never get that
expirience because age 60 comes earlier then 350 TO and LDGs
in a widebody aircraft. After 3 Years and no failed checkrides they
can be transfered to a widebody aircraft and here works the
buddy connection then. Is this not human nature ???
This all was maybe diffrent in the past when KAL had a lot of
accicents and incidents but since D.Greenberg joined the chair
it changed a lot to the better. KAL ist not perfect yet but it is
better then a few years ago.......

A/P Disc
2nd Jul 2003, 19:21

It seems we got a short version during our CRM training
about KAL and not all the facts. Thanks for the info.

Yes it is human nature, I agree with you there. My point is
mainly that some people in aviation think everything works
nicely via seniority,procedures etc. and that politics are never
involved. Regardless of company,culture or country I think politics
are always involved.Or do I sound to paranoid now??


I. M. Esperto
3rd Jul 2003, 03:09
Several takeoff's from taxiiways were made successfully at DEN Stapleton, and a Continental landed on one when they were using scabs.

3rd Jul 2003, 04:46
Is total time always the best way to determine capability?

Naturally, i understand the logic, but take the example of the newly qualified comm pilot (i.e. a 250 hour guy) who apparently is statistically more accident prone than a 50 hour PPL (due, i assume, to an increase in the blase factor).

Maybe there is the odd guy who is actually worthy of the post, despite his or her comparatively low total time, and what we in fact have in hand is not a corrupt but a progressive airline?


4th Jul 2003, 10:40
You sound down to earth and not paranoid A/P Disc......
You are right that most of the people believe that all is nice and
shiny at the frontline......
... and behind closed doors politics is involved and some strings
are pulled and the muppets on the front are moving, everywhere
in that world, no doubt about that.

24th Jul 2003, 09:01
You gottas have 6000 hours to qualify for wide body captain.
you also need to have the seniority.
You do not have to kiss anyone's okole except yours if you mess up your checkride.
If you look up Honeywell's EGPWS RAAS feature, you will realize how naive you can get about Airport RW/Taxiway incursions.