Logging Flight Time

[Captain Smiley]

Can I log a sector operated in VMC conditions on an IFR flight plan as Instrument Flying time?

[Checkboard]

In Australia, under CAO 40.1.0 (Pilot Licences and ratings - General Provisions) "Instrument flight time" is defined as <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">time during which a pilot is piloting an aeroplane solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points."</font>

Leaves things pretty vague from a legal view, and I have had FOI's interpret that as including Night VFR without a horizon reference (i.e. remote from ground lighting.)

CASA issued an Aeronautical Information Circular (AIC) titled "logging of Flight time" a while ago that restricted the definition to flight in IMC, either on autopilot or hand flying, but that was probably an opinion of someone within CASA, unsupported by law or court precedence. That AIC has since been cancelled.

[compressor stall]

checkboard Recently I read somewhere (not saying that it was true, just that I read it somewhere) that night VMC with no horizon (ie 8/8 black) or VMC on top are not to be logged as instrument time.

Thinking further it was at work thatI read it, I shall have a rummage for it on Monday.

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Those who restrain desire do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained.
William Blake

[Captain Smiley]

If VFR is not permitted above FL195 then this can surely be logged as Instrument time as well. Right?

[Tinstaafl]

No. 'VFR' does not equate to 'VMC' and nor does 'IFR' equate to 'IMC'.

One refers to the rules under which the flight must be operated, the other the meteorological conditions experienced during the flight.

Operating under the IFR above whatever level is specified as the maximum for VFR doesn't mean you are automatically in IMC - just that you are operating in accordance with a certain set of rules.

[This message has been edited by Tinstaafl (edited 20 May 2001).]

[Checkboard]

CS - that AIC I mentioned specifically stated that VFR at night (even with no horizon) was not to be logged as IMC. The problem is that AIC's are really only some (unknown) persons opinion, and don't matter any more than your or my interpretation of the rules. Only if it came up in court, and a judge made a ruling, would we know for certain.

For instance: you have to log a certain minimum IMC for various licences, which you and I most probably achieved "under the hood". Is this legal IMC? As long as you are flying on instruments it is under the definition, and the definition doesn't actually state that you must not be able to see out of the window - the hood is just for the instructor to be statisfied that you are learning correctly.

The broadest interpretation would allow you to log IMC even in day VFR - provided you were looking at the instruments, and not out of the window.

If you log IMC for 90% of your flying and someone queried it - you could just pull out a pair of "foggles" from your navbag and tell them you wear those in flight for practice! (N.B. you would probably need a safety pilot here to satisfy the lookout requirements.)

This is just one of those things that has been around forever as too vaguely defined, but nobody cares enough to go through the process of cleaning up the regs. Add it to "When exactly can I log co-pilot time", and "How does my personal flying count towards my duty hours."

[basics52]

Does FAR 121 establish a duty time limit now ? ( Bit off the topic, I know chaps )

[Check 6]

The FAA's definition of Instrument flight time is when you do not have ground reference. i.e. if you can not see the ground or ground references, you are IMC. On night flights if you can see the surface or surface lights, this would not be IMC.

But, if you are in VMC, then you can not log instrument flight time. You could log simulated instrument flight time with a view limiting device and a safety pilot.

Check 6

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Kick the tires, light the fires, first off is lead, brief on guard.

[This message has been edited by Check 6 (edited 23 May 2001).]

[Checkboard]

A furthur reference, that changes my views above somewhat, so I had to resurrect this thread in order to correct myself and prevent any confusion! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">10 LOGGING OF FLIGHT TIME...

10.9 Instrument flight time may be logged by the pilot monitoring or providing input to the autopilot/auto-stabilisation equipment when it is engaged or by the pilot manually manipulating the controls when the aircraft is flown by reference to instruments under either actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
Note: Instrument flight time shall only be logged by one pilot at a time.</font>

As this includes the phrase "under either actual or simulated instrument flight conditions." then you cannot log Instrument time in Night VFR or Day VFR conditions unless you are wearing a hood.

[763 4 me]

So what if I am cruising at FL390 in my shiny 767 with a clear, blue sky BUT autopilot engaged. I am PF and monitoring the instruments etc, can I log this as IMC ? I am flying solely by reference to my instruments no matter how beautiful the view is outside. Sure, I may elect to conduct a visual approach that is another story.

I suggest logging according to your understanding/interpretation of the rules, and be prepared to defend your reasoning when asked.

[IHL]

Interesting observations.
VFR, on a black night, under an overcast sky, over featureless terrain (or water) , a pilot would not know if he entered cloud, unless he put on the landing lights.