Scotland are Shortchanged

[Deeko01]

Hi,

Been discussing this rather emotive issue with a few aviation insiders who agree with the above statement.

Its seems now to be a fact of life that if you want to go anywhere in the world scheduled from Scotland then you must fly down south to either London or Manchester. If you look at the big low cost carriers for a start the only one taking the initiative are Ryanair with there new daily european destinations from Prestwick but Easyjet the only other big low cost carrier with a route from Scotland into Europe has reduced its Amsterdam service to once a day so that there aircraft can be used at one of there many new English bases.

Sure we now have Flyglobespan.com and Air Scotland.com but why did it have to take these airlines starting up??? the market was there already but was completely ignored by Easyjet and Go as it was then, Easyjet can come up with this nonsense all they want that its to expensive from BAA Scotland but heck the 2 aforementioned airlines can do it so why cant they.

And also lets look at Scheduled, shall we take Florida for an example, if l want to go scheduled to Florida then l need to either go to newark, toronto, chicago(note first 3 destinations served by foreign carriers not British), london or manchester to get a connecting flight which is inconvenient, you may say well fly charter..... yes ok but what if l dont want to go charter? what if l dont want to fly to Sanford Airport instead of Orlando International? what if l dont want to pay the ridiculously large supplements per person charged for departures from Scotland.

There are almost 10 flights per week from Scotland to Florida using 767 and A330's, now if each aircraft were to hold 250 pax then thats 2,250 pax per week during the summer surely to god a once a week scheduled summer service from GLA-MCO would work and would give the travelling scots public something we have never had "CHOICE".

My whole rant is that it must be so convenient to live down south and have so much choice and cheaper fares but l feel discriminated against for living in Scotland.

l can't speak for Wales or Northern lreland but l am certain they must have similar problems and l just wonder if any British Airline be it Scheduled or Low-Cost will come in and give the scottish people more of what they want.

Look forward to your replies.
Deeko.

[Callum Johnstone]

As a fellow travelling Scot, I fully sympathise, Deeko! :(

All credit to Ryanair at Prestwick for at least keeping alive the idea of direct scheduled European air links from Scotland, even if not everyone loves the airline or their choice of airports. We should also applaud airlines like CSA and Germanwings for recognising the potential from Scotland. Hopefully more airlines will follow suit in the very near future.

It's true that easyJet reduced the GLA-AMS service to once daily, however all credit to KLM for stepping in there and filling the vacuum. However, it is not much of a vote of confidence in Scotland for easyJet to have done this. In doing so, I wonder if they set back the cause of establishing a euro hub in Scotland by quite a few years. :sad:

Good luck to flyglobespan and Air Scotland. We know that Air Scotland (after a not-brilliant start) is beginning to talk of further expansion. I think Lanzarotte was mooted? However, what Scotland really needs is a proper scheduled year-round national airline, serving a combination of Mediterranean resorts plus European capitals and business centres, and perhaps ultimately some transatlantic destinations. Flyglobespan are talking about launching Canadian services (which is great news), but again on a summer-only 'charter' basis.

Like you, I much prefer to travel scheduled. I occasionally fly between EDI and PMI, and usually travel bmi through LHR, despite a whole host of direct charter flights I could take, if I were so minded.

As much as I hate to bring the Irish example up, but if Ireland can do it, Scotland (with its larger population) must surely be able to do it? Hopefully BAA Scottish Airports will have a few aces up their sleeve in respect of further developments in the near future.

Callum.

[Scottie]

I too would like some direct services to the continent, easyJet has reduced the GLA service to AMS but the EDI service has remained at its twice a day level.

However rather than vent your fury at easyJet perhaps vent it at BAA.

The original plan (I believe) was to put 3 extra aircraft into GLA to expand into Europe. However Newcastle airport offered them a better deal. So easyJet had two options, one which was more profitable than the other.

Which would you choose? Afterall you're a business looking for value and profit and not a charity?

I'm sure once BAA get their charging model correct then services into the EU by many different carriers including easyJet will start too happen.

easyJet has 120 airbus coming and they have to go somewhere.


With regard to Air Scotland, well they're not doing terribly well are they. The service they offered from Aberdeen to the Med attracted how many? About 38 according to the press.

flyglobespan, on the face of it, seem to be doing quite well but I read somewhere that although they had 80% load factors. The actual amount of travellers who booked online as independent travellers was only 20% of overall passenger numbers. The rest were flown on the airline as part of a package holiday through globespan. So it's a scheduled/charter mix. Remember that flyglobespan are only serving places such as Nice once a week. Hardly a true scheduled service of use mainly to the holiday maker and not the business traveller.

So perhaps the scheduled market isn't as strong as you think and it needs incentives to entice companies to provide these routes.

I don't think easyJet has anything to fear from the Scottish public as Kenny MacAskill suggests by not providing those European services. After all the market is very price sensitive and the only way eJ would enter the market is if it could offer low fares and still make a profit.

I'd rather eJ wait for the froth to blow off the top of the market and then secured a good deal off BAA before committing to expansion in Scotland.

[lightbluetouchpaper]

Scotland
Size = 30,414 sq mi
Population = 5m


London
Size = 607 sq mi
Population = 7.5m

[GroupCaptain]

Scottie,

For the record, flyglobespan.com fly twice weekly to Nice from PIK (in addition to daily Palma, and twice weekly to Rome and Malaga)

[Deeko01]

lightbluetouchpaper,

I am fully aware the differences in population between Scotland and London, but l am not looking for BA, Virgin or Easyjet to have a main base all l am merely asking for is a few new destinations to the continent from Scotland direct, if you were actually to see the amount of passengers who travel from Scotland down south to get a connecting flight to anywhere in the world the statistics l am very sure would surprise you.

Scottie,

I do agree that the BAA have a hand in all of this and am not trying to put all the blame on them, yes Easyjet are a business you are quite right they must go for the best deals but l am hoping with the £60 million invested to attract new routes will soon give us some new routes but we'll see time will tell.

I also hope we can now stop arguing between us which airport is better be it Edinburgh, Glasgow, Preswtick or Aberdeen because in truth we get nothing substantial aircraft wise and route wise so we should back any airline who wants to fly into any Scottish Airport as it can only be good for the people primarily but also for Scottish Aviation.

Regards
Deeko

[Yellow Sun]

Deeko01

if you were actually to see the amount of passengers who travel from Scotland down south to get a connecting flight to anywhere in the world the statistics l am very sure would surprise you.


I should like to be surprised. Please post a summary of the statistics you refer to.

YS

[Deeko01]

Yellow Sun,

I am sorry l should have rephrased that, l myself would like to see the figures of passengers travelling from Scotland to London as given it is if the not the biggest then on of the biggest routes in the world.

Regards
Deeko

p.s. anything better to offer??

[Yellow Sun]

Deeko01

l myself would like to see the figures of passengers travelling from Scotland to London as given it is if the not the biggest then on of the biggest routes in the world.



I am now totally confused. Do you or do you not have any passenger figures for the relevant existing routes to back up your assertions that there is a viable market for new direct routes from Scotland?

lightbluetouchpaper understands the problem, his figures contain the key. It's population density and size that matters in deciding to allocate resources to the potential market. There are other factors such as socio-economic makeup of the market, but they are not as important as the first two. To put it simply, if the people are there the figures will fit.

YS

[nef]

I seem to to remember figures quoted a couple of years ago that about 25-30% of pax on EDI/GLA-LHR/LGW/STN routes were tranferring to onward services. As for pax numbers on these services, are they not available on a monthly basis from the CAA website?

YS,

I don't think any of us are demanding services at a level anywhere near that of London hubs - that would of course be silly. However, services in Scotland are pretty poor. As someone said earlier, Ireland has a smaller population than Scotland and a similar (if not larger?) land area, yet it is streets ahead in terms of intenational links.

[EGPFlyer]

It is in the BAA's interests to have people connecting in London from Scotland as it means they get 2 passenger charges per person.

[Deeko01]

EGPFlyer,

Agreed with that but also when you look at the other foreign airlines who operate into GLA they also offer that facility of connecting through places like Toronto, Newark and Chicago the crux of the matter is we are extremely let down by our own countries airlines and yes thats you British Airways thats you Virgin Airlines and thats you Easyjet.

Regards
Deeko

[Caledonian]

One thing l have noticed is the lack of views on this thread and posts, could it be that the people from down south just dont care because they have all the great selection of flights and dont tend to take much interest if any in Scotland ........a wee bit like those airlines you outed!!!! :ok:

[athene]

Caledonian, I think you are quite right, people down south don't care, and why should they when they have it all on their doorstep. Bet they would soon be yelling though if every time they wanted to get out of Britain they had to first take an internal flight to get there.
While the journey itself is not such an inconvenience it is all the extra time and expense involved that really p***** most people off. It’s not a case of just hopping on a nice connecting flight to get down to London. It usually takes an extra day of travelling often with an overnight stay at an overpriced airport hotel in order to make an early morning flight. If you are lucky enough to be able to take both flights on the same day, it usually involves spending most of the day wandering around airports. The word connecting seems to be used in the loosest sense by the travel companies.
Then we get to the cost of the flight itself. Why should we have to pay extra for our flights? Yes there are great deals out there, but they are usually from Heathrow and Gatwick and you can guarantee paying an extra 100 or so for your connecting flights, even the low cost flights, once tax is added, tend to negate the savings that would have been made.
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that Scotland could support as many flights as London, but then again, London airports would lose a large part of their customer base if the Scots didn't have to fly through there, and we wouldn't want that would we? Maybe that’s why our friends from south of the border are so against the idea... I'm all right Jack, so f*** you?
Services to the continent, and further abroad, from Scotland may well be economically viable, but the Scottish people have got used to the situation and know its futile to complain so it seems that the customer base isn’t there, why be so against the idea until its been tried, though? The flights we do have to holiday destinations (the usual bucket and spade flights) are extremely well subscribed, in fact Iberworld have 2 flights to Tenerife from Edinburgh and Glasgow that depart at the same time to keep up with the demand.
Maybe its time for someone to take a chance, and then we all know the major airlines will come flooding in to try and pick up the routes they dismissed, and to stamp out the little guy before he gets too big for his boots (and before anyone has a go about that, tongue is inserted firmly in cheek as I type!)

[Joe Curry]

>>Services to the continent, and further abroad, from Scotland may well be economically viable, but the Scottish people have got used to the situation and know its futile to complain so it seems that the customer base isn’t there, <<

One isn't expecting a population of 5M to take umpteen flights
each year...Scotland is a major tourist and business destination.

Our troubles do not lie with lack of population but are more to do
with lack of enthusiasm from monopoly airport owners BAA.

The stumbling block at present appears to be the provision of
long-haul scheduled and charter routes.

Of course folk will use their local Scottish airport to make connections. One has to brave and make decisions about which
Scottish Airport both visitors and natives prefer.

Our full potential will only be realised when BAA are forced to relinquish exclusive control of Aberdeen, Edinburgh or Glasgow airports.:ouch:

[Gaza]

Scotland
Size = 30,414 sq mi
Population = 5m

London
Size = 607 sq mi
Population = 7.5m

Ireland (North & South)
Population = 5.4m

If the Ireland can run sustain an airline with the type and multitude of routes that it does, surely Scotland should be able to do the same?

[Joe Curry]

>>If the Ireland can run sustain an airline with the type and multitude of routes that it does, surely Scotland should be able to do the same?<<

Ireland does not have the BAA factor?

Perhaps Scotland's main centre of tourism/commerce/accessibility is being long-haul bypassed.?

We won't know until the glaring 'Black Hole' is filled with the
obvious. :sad:

[GustyOrange]

I wonder if the recent Emirates aircraft order will accelerate the introduction of the much talked about GLA route.

Gusty

[gawain]

Scotland short changed? Wait for next week!!!!

[nef]

gawain,

I take it your talking about some of the stuff mentioned in this article (http://www.theherald.co.uk/business/archive/18-6-19103-0-42-22.html) in todays Herald?

Any hints?:p

[Voldermort]

Six new routes well that should be interesting 3 for PIK,2 for EDI and 1 for ABZ:E
(Flak jacket now on!!!!!!)

[Joe Curry]

>>I wonder if the recent Emirates aircraft order will accelerate the introduction of the much talked about GLA route.<<

Not if Emirates are looking for an affluent Scottish Airport to
launch a service of interest to business pax.:p

[fokker]

*NB Message Icon*

Oh, for fcvk's sake. Stop whingeing!

Airlines are businesses which exist only to provide profit for their (note, not 'there') owners and/or shareholders. They are not seeking to provide a social service. Ergo: if there are judged to be insufficient passengers to sustain a particular rotation, why should they do it just to please you?

If you want its benefits, move to the affluent south.

If you want your own Assembly/ Parliament and, ultimately, full independence, kindly remain north of Hadrian's Wall and return to breeding haggis.

Thank you.



:} :E

[Joe Curry]

>>If you want your own Assembly/ Parliament and, ultimately, full independence, kindly remain north of Hadrian's Wall and return to breeding haggis.<<

Assembly/Parliament/Tourism/Finance/Affluence is east of another
little-known Roman wall...

Breeding Haggis, bragging and boasting about
BAA's categorised long-haul is west of St. Antonine's wall...... :E

Flak Jackets? Bouncy Castles?

Foot-in-mouth perhaps for the braggers?

BAA's May figures point to a quieter month than anticipated.

GLA's month-on-month growth of 5.1% despite the distinct impression created by Glasgow-based BBC that GLA was awash with football fans in what they seemed to regard as the defining moment of Scottish history.

PIK it seems stole the glory with the bulk of charters leaving and
arriving on Glasgow's 'cheapest' runway.... :mad:

[GroupCaptain]

Voldermort,

You may well have it right. It clearly makes more sense for the Scottish Executive to support PIK routes rather than GLA given that the SE are using public money and PIK is far cheaper than GLA. To support GLA routes would be a waste of Scottish tax payers contributions!

The problem seems to be that EDI has no competition and can charge what it likes and does.

fokker,

Quite correct, as Scotland has no airline of its own to speak of (i.e. ignore BA look alikes and Iraqi "ticket providers" serving Tunnock's teacakes or whatever), any new routes will have to be based on a sound commercial footing whether supported by the SE or not.

[Shed Driver]

You really are an ignorant little fokker, aren't you...

You said, to quote: "They are not seeking to provide a social service"

Scotland has just that, routes which are supported due to being 'socially required & dependant'.

You stay in your smelly, crowded hovel of a south east... we want to keep Scotland a secret anyway... ;)

[DUMBA]

Friends,

Please do not let this thread turn into a slanging match about who gets what at Glasgow and who gets what at Aberdeen because as has been mentioned when you look at the bigger picture in Scotland we really do get crumbs and nothing substantial.

As also was previously mentioned in Southern Ireland you can go from Dublin or Shannon to a wide variety of north american destinations and they seem able to sustain this so why couldnt scotland sustain this, l remember years ago seeing at Glasgow Northwest DC10 to Boston, American DC10 to Chicago, United 767 to Washington, BA L1011 to New York and Air Canada 767 sometimes 747 so l refuse to believe that because of September 11 all these passengers dont fly anymore becaue thats nonsense its just they seem to want you to go via London to get anywhere in the world.......me personally l would pull out all the stops to ensure l didnt go to London because they snub us fine l will snub you.

But to reiterate please scottish people unite and be thankful for anything extra we get be it PIK, EDI, GLA or ABZ because we need all the help we can get right now.

Thanks
DUMBA

[fokker]

Ooooohhhhh!

I just love it when my grenade hits an ammo dump............




:p :}

[GustyOrange]

Apologies guys for going off topic and responding to fokker.

Fokker, tell us all how much you earn and then we can all decide if we would be much better off in your position.

Cheers

Gusty

[Voldermort]

This should put a smile on Joe`s face
Iberia will start a daily Madrid-Edinburgh service not sure of the start date but fairly soon IB8174 Leave MAD 1555 EDI 1745 1815 arr back in MAD 2200 flight operated by Air Nostrum with CRJ:}

[Joe Curry]

>>The problem seems to be that EDI has no competition and can charge what it likes and does.<<

Long-haul traffic excluded, BAA earmarmark that for their GLA branch. :sad:

>>BAA's categorised long-haul is west of St. Antonine's wall<<

I'm surprised nobody picked-up on this. Antonine was in fact a
Roman and not a Saint. The definition of course depended on
what side of the wall one resided.:E

[EGPFlyer]

Gets off topic



As one of the folk who has said wall run pretty much past my house (well within roman catapult distance anyway!), I've never heard it called 'St' Antonines. Also, all of Glasgow is on the same side of the wall (the south) as Edinburgh......maybe we have more in common with you Edinburghers than you would like!!! ;)


Get's back on topic

[nef]

Seems the Scottish Enterprise cash mentioned earlier may be challenged:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3005216.stm

Were there not similar deals used by Wales and Nothumbria to attract bmibaby to CWL and easyjet to NCL?