Blues at Brize II

[SALAD DODGER]

I am led to believe that there has now been a turn around at Brize and aircrew are now allowed to wear flying suits in public, like the rest of the airforce.

Is this true?

[donald stott]

Doh,

There goes my shares in irons and ironing boards out the window. Guess I'll have to find a new source of income in and around Brize!!:p

[tengah chum]

I hope that this is all kosher, I happened to be in the co-op in cartoon town today and stood at the deli counter behind a 101 S/ldr with Manuel type moustache complete with growbag and cheesecutter. :O

[pohm1]

Is this just an issue regarding flying suits or does it extend to the wearing of service uniform while "off base"?

As a former (fairly recent) member of the airforce I recall that the main reason for not being allowed to wear uniform off base was the terrorist threat from PIRA. Judging by the small amount of Northern Irelands politics that makes it as far as the Southern Hemisphere has most of that threat not now disappeared?

Or is it just a Grow Bag thing?

[BEagle]

A while ago, a general smartening up of flying suits was ordered. They were to be of a standard appearance as decided by the sqn cdr, with flying badge or composite flying badge and name and no more than one badge per sleeve. Shirts worn underneath were to be of uniform sqn type.

The idea was to get away from the walking Christmas tree appearance of some aircrew; it worked well and there is no intrinsic reason why clean, smart, uniform sqn flying suits should not be treated as a proper service uniform which may be worn as laid down in service-wide rather than local regulations.

Personally I'd suggest rank insignia, uniform sqn name badge/flying badge, standard national flag on left shoulder and sqn badge on the other. Nothing else - no Red Flag, Top Gun, TLP, Leaping Wolf or other badges.

It's easy to understand why any stn cdr wouldn't want a bunch of scruffs on his patch - so if his/her aircrew stick to the rules then they'll be doing themselves a favour.

[Ali Barber]

The flying suit is a proper service uniform with its own number (as in No 2 HD), but I can't remeber for the life of me what number it is. Anyone help here? It has to be a uniform so that captured aircrew are "in uniform".

[moggie]

If I have it correct, flying suits are technically "specialist clothing" rather than uniform and as such do not have a number.

[akula]

I think that the gro-bag is indeed No.14 Home Service Dress.
I could be wrong of course (as I frequently am).


always ASSUME never CHECK

[jack_k]

I really cant see the problem with this issue. If you are flying, wear a flying suit, comfortable and practical. If you are not flying, why shouldnt we wear blues. I really dont see the issue on this and I cant get excited about it. If somebody introduced it my stn, I might have to reach for the ol'cardboard storage box and an iron but no big deal.
Seems to me that some people think the "growbag" is a status symbol. But I am prepared to be corrected if anyone can provide one reason why they should wear a flying suit if they are not programmed to fly?
Happy to be converted

[Training Risky]

OK Jack, what if you have come into work in blues, knowing definately that you are not on the flypro, you go to metbrief....

Straight after, the DA identifies YOU as the only available pilot to fly a task due to your qualification/chum's off-sick/ etc......

If you've got a rush job: route to plan, NOTAMs to check, flight plan to write, etc, how extra rushed and maxed out are you going to be when you realise you have to go to the locker room and change??

You might waste 10 minutes (or thereabouts)?

In this situation, that's the kind of distraction you do not need.

Fine, wear blues for groundschool, SDO, parades, etc.
But for god's sake, if there is even a sniff of a chance of flying, pitch up in grobag every time!:D

[BEagle]

A guide we used to have was that if you needed to be 'available for flying', you wore No 14 Dress. Coming in wearing Blues was a way of making it plain that no, you wouldn't be available for some short notice task because you were involved in something else - although I do remember being scrambled in Blues once (VC10), grabbing my flying suit and changing somewhere over Newcastle as we headed off towards Saxa and Q1!

What's a 'locker room'? If there's space for one of those on a ME sqn, then its space which could be better used!

[Mr C Hinecap]

Not blunt, chaps. Just not in the cockpit. For reasons other than 'not good enough' etc.

You can train a monkey to ride a bike, but you can't train him to fix it!



:E

[jack_k]

Deliverance my old china
I sincerely hope you are joking. Sometimes I find it just a little bit worrying that some people take great delight in the aircrew v bluntie divide. I can think of very few blunties who have gone out of their way to buggger me around. Admittedly, a lot need guidance and some can be just plain ignorant but wearing blues when you dont need to wear a flying suit is nothing to do with being blunt. Wearing blues is just part of being the RAF and you get a nice shiny set of wings as well!
'Cos, of course, to anyone in the army we are all just effing useless crabs - by which they mean we are all blunties. Especially 2 Group who are just coach drivers to your average squaddie.
But, hey, see you at RIAT - growbags a must :ok:

[Tocsin]

(Asbestos on...)

I'm not aircrew, not even a Regular, but do have a couple of comments to make:

Visited Ramstein last year, saw their AT tasking centre - aircrew in desk jobs, wearing flight suits. It didn't look appropriate to the job.

Likewise, seeing someone queuing to pay for the milk and biscuits in the Co-op dressed in a flying suit would not look appropriate - to me.

By all means wear a flying suit on the station if there is any chance of being called on for flying duty, but be prepared to change into work clothes in your time before the work starts - as many civilians have to do!

[ZH875]

In a previous (office bound) post with zero chance of even sniffing an aircraft, the aircrew would wear their gro bags on a Friday, to remind everyone that they were aircrew.

When one section comprising GR3 groundcrew tried to wear their overalls one friday, to remind the world that they were fully trained members of the groundcrew profession, they were bo**ocked rigid and told to get changed into blues.

At my present unit "overalls are not to be worn off station period" (quoteth the SWO), we still have gro bags buying bread and milk in the local shops.

If this isn't a case of 'look at me, I'm aircrew' I dont know what is. Blues (or Greens) for off base and working dress on base, should be standardised in this two part airforce.

[Tocsin]

Deliverance, old chap...

I'm just giving a civvie point of view - it doesn't look "right" (or "appropriate" as I used originally).

I could see, say, a fireman in his dayglo stripes stopping, hopping out of his cab and buying a pint of milk at the Co-op. But if he was in full silver asbestos suit, I would look askance!

On another thread, gentle banter was taken of a Spacey VR(T) in the mess in flying suit and RC wings - no problem with the banter - the dress was inappropriate (if nothing else!). But what's sauce for the goose...

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

As someone who spent the first 15 years of his service life in blues.......hairy thru to thunderbirds:D and the last 14 wearing my "bag" to work I can safely vouch for the fact that those ghastly "barathea" gaments were some of the most uncomfortable i have ever worn.

A growbag is supposed to look as if it only fits where it touches, whilst blues are supposed to look smart and well tailored....................however bearing in mind that during the 29 years of my service I cannot recall when we last purchased anything ranging from plimsoles to rifles that was fit for the task is it any surprise that the majority of us look like bags of pooh:sad: when dressed in blue.

So with that in mind if i have to look like a bag of pooh I might as well be a comfortable bag of pooh:O, as a quick aside if the "bag" is that much of an eyesore how come so many other "trades" take delight in wearng them :(


all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Oggin Aviator]

Terrorist threat notwithstanding of course, I think it would be good to see more Service people (whether in a flying suit or blues or whatever) out and about in the locality. Good PR for the Services. The problem we have in the UK is low visibility outside of Service establishments due to years of self protection.

Memories fade quickly in the UK, the latest punch up in the Gulf will not last long in the mind of Joe Public.

BTW, sometimes I find my 3C's quite a refreshing change to wear when I'm not scheduled to fly and it gives the washing machine a chance to do its stuff, and it doesnt really take that long to get changed into a spare set if you have to.

Oggin

[G fiend]

Funny innit how all aircrew always say-

"everyone wants to be like us, and you're liars if you don't"

Here's another point of view- If flying suits are 'specialist clothing'
then like all specialist clothing they should only be worn when required for that task...anything else is misuse.

seems to me previous honourable correspondent was correct...
It's a case of "look at me I'm a pilot" same as civvie street.

What's the difference between a pilot and god?

god knows he's god, pilot just thinks he is.:E

[Tocsin]

Deliverance, I'm not "wrong" - I'm giving you my _opinion_ as stated. I don't have any influence on Air Force policy! I am a civilian, supportive of the RAF, who doesn't want their personnel sniggered at!

If you wore LSJ, G-pants (and helmet?) you _would_ get a laugh, woudn't you! (And I think you know that dress would be _really_ inappropriate). I've used the words "appropriate" and "right" - maybe I should have been less polite and used the word "silly"!

My analogy of fireman in dayglo suit would be equivalent to blue 2 or dpm - comfortable (non-flying) normal working dress. The argument for wearing flying suits is, ISTR, the possibility of being pulled into the flying programme at short notice - this would not apply while shopping at the Co-op!

Please recognise that the audience at the Co-op is _vastly_ different to that at, say, an airshow. At one, the owner of a flight suit normally receives (deserved) adulation, at the other... ?

[ZH875]

G Fiend, you are absolutely correct.
Tocsin, you too,
Deliverance, aircrew are not the only ones with secondary duties, as to groundcrew, fixing the valiant attempt by aircrew to break everything they touch, then say 'it wasn't me', gets in the way of our secondary duties. But we do not have the 'out of crew duty hours' excuse to be lazy.

Would you object to engineering officers wearing sweaty overalls in the mess, sitting next to a sweaty gro bag. No, thought not, they do not have a winged brevet to fly.

[Mud Clubber]

Look, we do because:
1. We can't be ARSED to change
2. We can
The people complaining are the people who can't. Stop trying to chafe up the aircrew.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

MC:D

Got it in 3:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[brit bus driver]

Aren't aircrew just about the ONLY people who are wearing "uniform" in the RAF at the moment? What with half a dozen different types of jumper, a smattering of jackets, long-sleeve shirts (with 2 pockets), long-sleeve shirts (with 1 pocket), short-sleeve shirts, RAF blue, Akrotiri tailors' version of blue, Soldier 95 etc etc, the rest of you are a long way from being uniform!

Give or take the various shades of green doing the rounds at the moment, at least we all look vaguely alike! And I don't get asked if I think it's the alternator or the spark plugs (a la man from the RAC) when I pop into the co-op for some well-earned post-flight refreshments!

:cool:

[D-IFF_ident]

Oh get over it....

Aircrew: Wear flying suits because you can.

Ground trades: Wear blues because you're not aircrew.

It's the Royal AIR Force for chrissakes.

:ok:

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

I quite like seeing a load of fat geezers in their all-in-ones. Long may it remain.

PS. In Canada, even the air traffikers wear flying suits to go to work. How bizzare is that?



:zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

[DummyRun]

As a truckie I'd rather not have to wear blues or a gro-bag, CS95/dessies as appropriate are far more comfortable, flexible, practical especially when your job involves working on the ground and in the air with definitely no time to change, - drawbacks? confuses US groundcrew when crew get of and nobody in a flight-suit, saves money, er......

I don,t need somthing tested to 10 G,covered in zips and velcro to do my job nor do I need somthing else specially developed, stores have got most things, getting it is another story sometimes, silly me I forgot, that's why their not called 'Issues'..

[whowhenwhy]

Is it me, or have we had this conversation before? Come on guys, chill out! 3 pages of aircrew vs blunty warfare? Boring, change the channel, flip the disk etc etc. Are some people really so bored that all they have to do with their time is think how they can complain about aircrew wearing grow bags??? Well okay, there's always the incumbants of handbrake house- but apart from them?? Please note the following:
1. Growbags are uniform. Ask your local friendly SWO
2. If aircrew want to wear them, then let them. It's their uniform! Besides, as previously stated, what flypro is ever cast in stone?
3. Personally, whenever I see you guys wearing your bags I'm reminded what CinC Home Command said to our (at the time) 2 year old daughter whilst in a family happy hour. "Oh look, all those men are wearing their sleep suits as well!" Classic!!!
:p ;) :D

[ZH875]

If pilots wear their grobags just in case they may have to fly, could any of you please explain why I met a IV Sqn Pilot, wearing his grobag, in a hospital waiting room in Peterborough today. What aircraft was he going to be put in at short notice.

Mind you, the comments from the civilians in the hospital were fun, from 'what a To$$er' to 'Scruffy barsteward'.

Long may the cream be proud and advertise their wings.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

ZH,
"Long may the cream be proud and advertise their wings"

"Long may the blunt be proud to advertise their envy":yuk:

We may work on the same type fella but we are worlds apart when it comes to the job.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[ZH875]

Arty, the Pilot concerned was not there to visit any family member, he booked himself in at the reception desk. I may be a tw@t, but I object to being called ignorant.

Always_etc, I would like to remind you of two things.

1. Not all blunties want to fly ( I fix the things and therfore know why)

2. The automatic pilot was invented in 1943 or thereabouts, - The automatic groundcrew has still to be invented.

Finally, I agree about being worlds apart when it comes to the job. Blunties are happy to do it without wishing to pose to the general public.

Whatever your pursuasion, be it grobag or blues, safe flying, and safe operations to all

[SALAD DODGER]

Sorry old boy but this is a Professional Pilots Forum, NO STICK NO VOTE.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Military Aircrew
A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here.

:}

[ZH875]

Ok Salad Dodger. You win. I shall find another site to look at and leave you in a little corner of your very small and blinkered world where you can play with your little stick all by yourself.

May your next pleasure flight be cancelled at the last minute due to unserviceability.

To all other members of Pprune, I apologise for the stick holders who are proud to be ignorant.

Fly safe, Happy landings and farewell

[Ralf Wiggum]

I'm all for Aircrew wearing uniform off base. It's a known fact that dissident terrorist groups are still active and that they always go for the easy targets. A few years ago it was our people, out in the Rhine with their BFG plates and uniform hanging in the back of cars, who were cowardly murdered. We even had some poor souls shot on train station platforms because of Service identifiable bags.

If folk continue to wear uniform outside while I continue to change in to civvies, that makes me feel pretty safe from being the target of any terrorist attack - thanks to our brave, but ignorant, aircrew colleagues. It's your choice as I see it, just don't go whining to the Old Bill when you meet Paddy face on.

[BEagle]

By skulking around in 'mufti' outside the base rather than wearing your uniform (be it No 14 dress or blunty-blue), you have in effect handed a partial victory to 'Paddy' as you call him.

Heed the requirements of the current security state and dress accordingly, I would suggest.

[Still Smiling]

I've worn my blues to an appointment at Peterborough, cos it's my uniform.

The guy from IV wore his flying suit to an appointment at Peterborough, cos it's his uniform.

As far as I'm aware there's no issue at Cottesmore regarding ground branches having whinges about pilots wearing their flying suit throughout the day as IT'S THEIR UNIFORM!!!

;)

[jockspice]

Someone call a plumber!:zzz:

[Ralf Wiggum]

Beags old fella,

Rather a partial victory with no media attention than handing them a real victory on a plate with masses of media coverage!

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Can we put this one to bed?

PS. It wasn't that long ago that the shiny ten fleet bleated about having to wear flying suits as opposed to their ordinary blues. :p

[MG]

Just to put my oar in before it goes to bed, flying suits are no 14 uniform, as has been stated. When the rules were relaxed about wearing uniform outside, I distinctly recall that flying suits were singled out as not being permitted to be worn downtown. The only acceptable uniforms are no2 and no3 (DPM). No1 as well, I suppose, but I don't recall that. The point of whether you do or don't is a moot one; you are not allowed. End of arguement. There is no real reason behind this, but its clearly written - no flying suits in public places (town shows, airshows etc excepted). For what its worth, I've been aircrew for 17 years and I still don't think it looks right off stn. Just my opinion!

[Specaircrew]

Having been aircrew for nearly 30 years I still feel uncomfortable being seen off station in any sort of uniform, but I suppose that stems from the more security conscious days when the IRA thought it was fun to murder as many servicemen as possible.

What really does look a bag of sh*t is DPM/CS95, I've never seen anyone look smart wearing it and I understand they're going to make multi engine crews fly in it?

[FFP]

I think we can all agree on one thing though . . .. . .

A day out of uniform is a day wasted.