One for LHR Delivery

[NigelOnDraft]

Do we need to report "fully ready" to get ATC clearance...?

Practice alters from day to day and between delivery controllers. However, from "our" side, it is usually not ideal for this to be the case. Reasons:
1. Its one extra thing to do prior to actually pushing... Others are confirming everything's shut, confirming the pushback crew is also ready and has checked the aircraft (this obviously cannot be done until we are ready), finding a gap in the sequence of calls on Ground etc., reading the push/start checks
2. It is a requirement (for Nigels at least) that both listen and copy down the clearance (because understandably ATC get upset if we fly the wrong SID!) - yet we are required to get the clearance when we are pushed for time, and may be doing things independantly e.g. around here it is also Capt PA time, so this "rule" either holds us up, or is ignored.
3. Again for Nigels - if we fail to "Brakes release" within 3 mins of doors closed, the delay is attributable to us... (this is obviously our problem, but shows that requiring to be fully ready before trying to get a call in to delivery can contribute to delays)

Many other airfields say "call for ATC clnc when 5 (or 10) minutes" before ETD.... This fits in very well, and if the ATC clearance is not that expected, gives us time to rebrief...

If there is a valid reason for not passing the ATC clearance (SID & squawk) at this stage, then fair enough.... I am not asking to be cleared to switch to ground, or to start, and the best compromise is when the controller gives us the SID / Squawk, and then says call fully ready (presumably so they can fit in the flow of aircraft to ground).

Awaiting your thoughts!

NoD

[chiglet]

At "Manch", we had a 10min call so that the "Ground Movement Planner" [ATCO] could pass the Departure strip to the [ground] ATSA to pass the "Start and SID" to the Radar Sector. Which was then passed to the Radar Sector Controller for "initialisation".
We now have a "Link" between the Ground ATSA and the Sectors which removes the need for a 10min call.
Depending on the R/W in use, [times promulgated], the SID is "standard" as is the squawk. You can call anytime" for your SID and if we have it, you will get it
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[Muppit]

Again, no two airports in the London area pass or process clearances in the same way.

Heathrows style is dictated by space in the VCR, position layout, RTF loading, traffic levels and history

In a couple of years it won't be a problem.

Electronic strips and pre-departure clearance via acars will reduce the workload and RTF (70% of clearances via acars)......but thats a whole new thread altogether......

:\

[Gonzo]

NOD,

It says so in the AIP, so technically, yes, you do need to be fully ready.

However, some of us at least are realistic, and know that you're not fully ready when you call for clearance, for the reasons you give. That's why I ask if you are fully ready when I give you the clearance. If not, then I'll just ask you to do so before I start cluttering up Ground's strip bays with 'pending outbounds' who aren't ready for push, which makes his/her job a bit harder for no reason.

I know some may throw their toys out of their pram if you call up not ready, but all I'd suggest then is just on inital call add something like: "We're not yet fully ready, about x minutes, can we have our clearance now?" I can't think of any reason why the answer to that would be no.

Gonzo.

[Yellow Snow]

At heathrow we need to modernise a bit for the exact reasons mentioned in the original post.
From what ops are saying we are gonna move to a situation where crews can call 10 minutes in advance.
The problem will be:-
a. The old gits who won't change and will still demand that you 'report fully ready'. Yawn

b. The TC assistant that populates the GMP CCTV screen will have to make sure this is only done when the a/c is actually given start and not when it's given airways. Otherwise, TC panic and put on uneccessary MDI's.

As far as BA is concerned,
NigelOnDraft you must be short-haul as majority of long-haul BA call up in advance, forget to give a/c type (admittedly it's 1 off 3, but still a wasted return RT call) and in my experience don't appreciate that the function of delivery is to protect the workload on GMC and departures. Short-haul crews are very good obviously a factor of regular sectors.

[NigelOnDraft]

<<It says so in the AIP, so technically, yes, you do need to be fully ready>>
Guess I need to know where to find an AIP! I'll study the LHR Thales booklet next time I fly to see what it says in there...

<<but all I'd suggest then is just on inital call add something like: "We're not yet fully ready, about x minutes, can we have our clearance now?" I can't think of any reason why the answer to that would be no.>>
Usually try that... reason for the post was yesterday I got a brisk reply saying "call back when fully ready" and only then would we be given the ATC clearance.

Regardless of the AIP, we all try to be flexible etc. The reason for the post was to see if there was a practical reason for witholding the ATC clearance from us? As I say, am more than ready to then stay with delivery until I am fully ready - we (SH especially) do appreciate that you are "screening" us from ground!

The present practice means:

1. We call for clearance and confirm "fully ready" when it looks likely we will be in a couple of minutes... Then much grovelling when it all falls apart!

2. We end up getting clearance without the other pilot monitoring - against our SOPs, and contributes to the number of wrong SIDs flown.

3. The extra steps required between doors closed and brakes off mean that when we go late we allocate (within BA) the delay to ATC. Don't know (or really care) what happens beyond then... As I am sure you appreciate, at busy times, it can sometimes take longer than 3 minutes to:
a. Get into the stream of RT traffic on Delivery, ask for clearance, get it, read it back, told correct and contact ground...
b. Now do the same on the Ground Frequency
and that's without everything else we have to do...

Thanks for the replies - please keep them coming!

Best regards
NoD

[Gonzo]

NOD,

The only reason I can think of, apart from "the old gits" as Yellow Snow puts it ;), is regarding the CCTV mentioned above.

Basically, an assistant over at West Drayton is listening to both Delivery and Departures. As soon as Delivery starts an a/c up, he enters the callsign and SID up on a CCTV screen. When an a/c is given a line-up from Deps, a '/' is placed next to the callsign, when cleared for take off, the '/' becomes a 'X'. The a/c on the CCTV are sorted by SID routes, northbounds at the top, southbounds at the bottom. This CCTV screen is repeated in all the outbound radar sectors, to enable the radar controllers to be aware of what is coming out in the next twenty minutes or so.

Trouble is, it's a boring job for the assistant, and sometimes they don't listen as hard as they could, so as soon as they hear a callsign on delivery, they put it on the screen, even though it hasn't started yet, and perhaps won't for another 15 minutes. TC get spooked by the large number of a/c that Heathrow are starting up, and slap a '1 every four minutes' departure rate for a particular sector to safeguard from overload.

However, I really can't see why, if you tell Delivery you're not yet ready, they'd withold the clearance. Maybe you could ask why next time? :ok:

Gonzo.

[evenflow]

An example below of why it helps delivery if we know that you are ready.

Regulating traffic within a particular apron, for example the old Charlies...124 calls for start and is transferred to ground, then 143 calls straight after and transferred over as well. Now these two might be still sat in the ground pending bay 10 mins later having not yet called for push. So what do you do on delivery when 126 calls you for start? Its unfair to delay this one who might be fully ready, but you can bet that as soon as you transfer it to ground, the other two will call for push as well. If ground R/T is already busy, he/she can do without these calls (don't forget there maybe inbounds to get into the apron also).

The ideal situation for delivery is that you call up when you're just about ready to push. That way the start ups can be regulated properly with regard to Ground workload, too much traffic at the holding point, runway alternation, slot times etc, as is the job of the delivery controller.

If you're not yet ready and just want your clearance, say so, I'm sure 99% of controllers would pass it to you.

[Point Seven]

Gonzo

The reason why is exactly as you stated above. Because the procedure that we use IS out of date, if the CCTV ATSA puts every outbound on the screen then the outbound sector chiefs put on MDI's (NigelOnDraft, this is when no one goes anywhere!).

What we need to do is move towards the system used at CDG and even EGKK, whereby planes call for clearance about ten before start (cos they can make a very good estimate at this, provided Yellow Snow isn't flying with them and still in the bar) and Delivery moves the strip to a pending postion until they call fully ready, then it's over to ground. Surely we can push for this at Tech Comms or Best Practices? The TV is going from the VCR anyway I understand so the system wil become redundant.

This way, we're happy, the pilots are happy (especially the AFR pilots who religiously report ten before fully ready) and Heathrow can be dragged kicking and screaming into 1980 at least.

P7

[BOAC]

What we need to do is move towards the system used at CDG and even EGKK

Seconded - it works fine at LGW. Clearance around -15 to -10, call when really! ready, then sent to ground for push. At least you have a chance to set up and brief the departure rather than what seems to be the case at LHR when you would not find out the Sid had changed until push-back?

[Gonzo]

P7, I was just elaborating on the TV for NigelOnDraft's benefit, not sure if he knew what you were on about ;) .

There's nothing more annoying than doing bandboxed GMC with a bay full, and GMP just starting everything that calls for a clearance without checking if they're ready for push. Last cycle at one point I had nine strips that were pending outbound and not one of them called me for ten minutes. Sure, I'm from the 'start 'em up' school of GMP, but within reason, and at the end of the day, regardless of what it says in the AIP, it's GMP's job to make sure an a/c is ready for push when it goes to GMC.

Gonzo.

[Yellow Snow]

P7,
As part of electronic flight progress strips, we are gonna have to change a few of our procedures, including going to the KK style of delivery (about time), I believe this is gonna be done sooner rather than later.
Certain controllers will need to be completely re-trained:rolleyes:

As for staying in the bar, if it's the business lounge, sod it the flight can go without me I'm never leaving hic:D

[Gonzo]

Certain controllers will need to be completely re-trained

LOL! One could argue that is needed now. :ok:

Gonzo.

[contact_tower]

Any plans for implementation of Data link Cl. delivery in the UK?

It's up and running at aiports (ESSA/ESGG/EKCH) with less need for it ( I imagine) then some of your airports.....:ok:

[GT3]

I will only withold a clearance if there are big delays on (eg 20 mins or more) otherwise i give them start, only ocassionaly might i check to see if ground is overloaded - eh p7?? you'll miss that!

[Point Seven]

GT3

You'll be missed alright. i'm tying the noose as we speak.;)

P7

[cossack]

Go here (http://www.navcanada.ca/navcanada.asp) type EXCDS into the search box and click on the top result.

EXCDS is used in Canada for data display amongst other things. It is technologically very advanced and adaptable to differing and changing situations. You'll be hearing more about it in the UK soon enough! As Muppit said, "but thats a whole new thread altogether".

It is compatible with the traditional Clearance operations as well as PDC. It facilitates instantaneous transfer of flight data between positions both within the tower and from the tower to other sectors/units and vice versa. Clearances here are available 45 minutes prior to filed time and 30 minutes before for PDC.

[Scott Voigt]

Like Contact Tower stated;

Any chance that you are finally going to go to datalink of clearances??? We have been using that over here for over a decade and it is VERY effective. Try it, you'll like it <G>...

regards

Scott

[BookEm]

In my opinion, lots of the problems caused at Heathrow are just caused by some people being totally inflexible and not being able to see past the end of their own strip holders. Until this changes (and it`ll take a lot of training to get people out of their 1980`s traffic level attitudes) there will always be niggling problems on all of the Heathrow frequencies. I agree with Point 7 and Yellow Snow in that if they are not ready just give them their bloody clearance and stop fannying about unless there are massive delays. Then when they are fully ready just tell them the delay. Its not hard and if the TC Assistant tells me off on the intercom I just apologise and carry on doing it my own way. I enjoy working with Yellow Snow, Point 7 and the rest cos they are as much of an air traffic cowboy as I am and there`s never any fannying about (you`d better miss me boys)

I thought I`d have one last moan before I go.

ps land after, works every time

[Yellow Snow]

You will be missed my little friend.
One more escalator challenge for old time sake?

The 8JL will always be number one from now on, how else will we keep you busy!

Remember this is not a nightclub, and never ever panic!:D

[Captain Spunkfarter]

Why not follow my three point plan when doing GMP?

T Think
I Inhale
T Transmit

If you like the above, you may also find this useful on GMC:

L Look out!
A Assess
B Bearing
I Instruction
A Act!

Finally, Departure control depends upon plenty of:

M Mashalling
I Ideal order
N Nicotine
G GO GO GO!
E Exhale

[evenflow]

Captain Spunkfarter, your plans seem to make sense. Maybe you could try my eight step guide to arrivals.


C ontinue approach
L and After
I must be out of hours by now
T urtle head
Oh Checker go away
R IMCAS alert...probably spurious???
I 'll give way
S how me the money

[halo]

Funniest thing I've heard in ages.... They are going to be put forward at the next tech comm meeting ;)

[NigelOnDraft]

On the orginal thread (!)

I have now read the LHR booklet - probably first time ever... Oh - all right - read to the first page to where it says (in bold) you are to be ready before calling for clearance.

That said, the last few days have called a bit early, was given ATC, and then asked if fully ready. Said will be in 1 / 2 minutes, and either sent to ground, or asked to call back fully ready. Thank you to those controllers - it really does make our life easier...

NoD