Where are the good old days ?

[Farside]

Where are the times that I packed my bag, kissed the wife and kids goodbye, took my car to the airport and parked for free somewhere in walking distance of dispatch, met the rest of the crew, checked the flightplan and the girls and took off for a relaxing few days of flying, fun, food and a beer, in short a good time, for which we were all paid a descent salary.

I reported last week for a seven days trip and started my flight positioning as a passenger. Unable to park a car even within miles of my reporting point I had to take a taxi to get to work. Having cleared the first obstacle I now had to check-in my suitcase. After having been selected randomly by the computer, that by the way always selects me randomly, I had to go through a baggage clearing procedure where I was asked all kinds of questions about the contents of my suitcase and if I had packed my suitcase myself or was carrying packets for persons I didn’t know or had never met. I now had cleared the second obstacle and took off to dispatch to pickup some paperwork.
Here I was met by a friendly nurse who wanted to know where I had been for the last ten days and followed here interrogation by taking my temperature. All done I was on my way to the gate, but found out to my surprise that my flight kit of the last thirty years suddenly didn’t fit through the little gate at the x-ray machine so here I was back to the gate to get a special sticker for my carry on kit.
Of course we were delayed since we were missing a passenger and therefore had to offload his bag, which only took 20 minutes, but that is a norm these days and doesn’t count as an obstacle. We filled in numerous new forms, arrived at our destination and went through immigration, where to my great surprise my first-officer, holding a Malaysian passport had to report at a separate desk.
Here his fingerprints were taken, a mug shot as well, and he had to fill out a three page questionnaire before he could proceed. His passport had also given him the pleasure of being picked out for a special baggage check, which in all took over 45 minutes. By then we had missed the crew transport and had to find our own way to the hotel.

The way back was more or less the same, where our temperature was taken again in Dispatch, and every six hours during the flight ( as suggested in one of the SARS procedures we as crew should follow.
I still like to know what I have to do when , during the flight , my temperature reads over 37.5 degrees. I take it that I have to make an emergency landing and cart myself of to the nearest hospital , while the rest of the crew and 400 passengers go into full quarantine)
At our destination we again had to fill out all sort of new forms , were temperatured ( new word!) and were told by the officials that we had to wear a mask and were quarantined in the hotel. According to article 41 of the communicable diseases control law and article 192 of the penal code of this godforsaken place failure to do so could get you a jail sentence of only two years. I was lucky that I liked pizza’s because that was the only food the frightened room service staff could stuff under the door.

I know times have changed, I know we have to be serious about security and Sars, but I think it’s time to hang it all up, burn my passport, annoy my wife and never leave my modest home again.

[Avman]

Where are the good old days?

:( I fear they are gone forever. Aviation as I once knew it will never be the same again. The end of an era :{ .

[BigRab]

Recently in the MyTravel crew room one of our senior captains announced that he was about to retire; and spend more time at is home in Florida and play around with his light aircraft.
Not one of the 10 or so pilots around at the time, with an average age 25 years younger would have been sad to swap places with him.
What has happen to this job and the world that makes people wish they had been born 25 years earlier?
What is it going to be like in another 25 years?

Happy retirement Captain Tom Beck it was an honour to know you and fly with you.

[Fly_Right]

On the other hand...

Although I had to get up at 0410 local (at least it was light out), The drive to the airport was without traffic and with the window down I could hear the dawn chorus. I don't live too far from the airport so the journey was short. I found a parking spot right near the gate and made the bus with 3 munutes to spare. Being the first flight of the day, our aircraft was waiting for us (no slot!!) Pax on then departed 5 minutes early. Lovely view of Paris and he Alps down to Nice. Straight in aproach over St. Tropex. 30 minute turn around and off on time. Again lovely views of the alps and Paris back to England. And back home by Noon.

It isn't glamorous like going long haul but if you like poling airplanes and gettig paid for it, this was about the best day out I have had in a long while;)

[wasdale]

It's all because of the bean-counters.
What happened to reverse-thtust cocktails? Not PC now.
We used to be allowed by Customs two packets of ciggies (one of which had to be opened) and two cans of beer or a "bottle" of wine. This latter was often acquired in the met office at Alicante and was a large flagon in a beautiful straw basket. About the equivalent of one's daily flight allowance if I remember rightly.
If we reported for duty early in the morning we had to trample over empty beer cans left by the previous night's crew in the crew-room.
I also remember the catering van which came to us at Gerona to sell fags and "Gerona Plonk." Also strawberries and other goodies.
Yes. Those were the days. I just don't uunderstand how newcomers to the profession can be so enthusiastic about it.

[snodgrass]

Quite agree !
Have'nt flown with anybody recently who is not looking forward to retirement and that includes several young F/O's. One even told me that he would quite like to loose his medical so that he could claim on insurance and do something else !

[millerscourt]

Wasdale Sounds like the Monarch crewroom of the 70's?! The Halcyon days (sorry Court Line) are well and truly over as you say. The prospect of travelling as a passenger with all the hassle these days when I retire and can no longer go straight to the First Class check in fills me with horror!!

[brakedwell]

Even the aeroplanes are bloody boring these days!

[3MTA3]

I can only agree, guys. I'm 34 and I'm seriously thinking of doing another job. Luckily I'm still having a bit of fun in Africa. But for how long :{ :{ :{ :{ :suspect:

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

At the risk of disagreeing with some fine chaps, I have to say that I really like going to work! I started commercial flying late in life and have done a lot of other jobs. If you think there is some wonderful existence out there which is so much more satisfying than flying then do not believe it. I have had the misery of dreaming of doing something else and finding it completely outside my grasp. Like anyone else I have my moments, but fundamentally I feel incredibly fortunate to fly an Airbus and get paid for what I love doing. I work for a company that has recently effectively shelved its expansion plans, and that means I will be an FO for a very long time unless I change companies, but I still love the job. Maybe I am mad, but that's the way it is! Am I the only person out there that loves aviation?

[bijave]

My guess is that it all depends on the airline, hence on network, workload, rest time, etc...

[Cpt. Underpants]

Despite the fact that I am on "voluntary" unpaid leave from my job in the Far East, I have never felt more rested or relaxed in my entire aviation career. There is no doubt about it, ULH takes a slow, steady toll on your health and well-being. Add the post 9/11 hysteria, SARS, SLF's and industrial B-S that have been part of the past 9 years where I work, and frankly, retirement (still 13 years away) is looking better and better...

A few words of advice to those who may feel that it's just too much:

Rationalise the relationship that you have with your employer and with flying in general. Decide what they want from you, and what you want from them. Most important, don't take it home.

Fly safe.

[Horatio]

Millerscourt

I remember with fond affection the old Mon crew room days, where you would often meet the same crews that were there on lates when you reported for earlies, and vice versa...those were the days.

Never remember any first class check in from Mon days...maybe things have improved considerably since I left!

They were fun days...mostly because of the crews...I think the regs have changed everything now; I can't say I miss the flying, other than the odd day when one had a really splendid day flight, with beautiful scenery and a happy, bubbly crew with equally happy and contented passengers...Those were the days.

Having said that, driving a desk can be somewhat tiresome too, with the odd very early start!

[I. M. Esperto]

I packed it in in 1987, when I was 56.

I could see this coming. No regrets.

Those of you who never flew in the 1950's will never know how good it was, on the job or off.

God be with the days.

May the liberal idiots who destroyed it, be shot with a ball of their own ****e.

[BEagle]

Although I've never been a commercial skipper, I've had some great times 'down route' in the old days:

The Monarch folk at Bangor were always fun. Holiday Inn, Odlin Road on Sinday night, I mean Sunday night....No I don't!

The BA crews one met in Chicago and Dulles.

But the best was a very pleasant night stop in Bermuda when we became good friends with a BA TriStar crew. Terrific time - and the Number One in her little black dress (and even littler lacy black knickers as I later found out) was particularly friendly....

[I. M. Esperto]

Snodgrass - Back in 1960, I was a T-34 instructor in VT-1 at NAAS Saufley Field. I had a student, NavCad Tom Sharkey, who asked me if I would do him a favor, and drive is old 1946 Cadillac to my place, because he had no insurance yet, and it was banned from the base.

No problem.

He gave me the keys, told me where it was parked, and thanked me.

A few minutes after I got home, a USMC Captain and the local Sheriff arrived at my door. They told me I had stolen the car of NavCad Snodgrass.

Whoa! I explained the situation, and I drove back to Saufley, and parked it, to the relief of Snodgrass.

It turns out that the same key worked in both cars, and I had taken the wrong one.

[TomPierce]

Steady on Beags! :eek: It's not good for the ole heart. Anyway, you be getting dangerously close to being put in JetBlast! ;)

Mind you me imagination is as good as it ever was, especially small lacy knicks! :ooh:

[alexb757]

Norman Stanley Fletcher

Glad to hear you enjoy the job you have. I, too, started relatively late (mid- 30s) in professional flying and paying for all my licences & ratings from day one. You are lucky & more power to you. However, I suspect you could be in the minority.

I'm not trying to flame you, really, I'm not. Just trying to put a very different perspective on this industry & its long-term effects. Quite simply, some of us have the Midas touch, many others do not. I know plenty of friends who have never been out of work by being lucky and in the right place at the right time.
While I love flying and devoted most of my life to it, it has been nothing but heartache for me and my family.
There are ads out there for careers saying "be all you want to be" etc. However, sometimes it does not matter how hard you try, how good your attitude is, how loyal or dedicated - it simply does not matter. I'm trying real hard to think what an almost 50-year old can do to "start" another career/job who has been flying 20+ years, several times almost made the LHS but always prevented because the company suddenly went bust. Sure you take risks in life, but 5th lay off in 12 years, the enthusiasm starts to wane.
If I had my time over again & knew what I now know, I would definitely not choose aviation. It's far easier being either a doctor or lawyer AND you make more money! How many lawyers or doctors do you know that have ever lost their jobs let alone 4 or 5 times? How many of them have to do on a regular basis, what professional pilots have to do? Very few I suspect. I'm not trying to knock other professions - just to highlight how difficult a pilot's life/career can be. I started in this profession back in the 70s, when even then, things were quite good. They have certainly gone way downhill since then, no question.
As for me, who knows? I took a chance 3 years ago after resigning from a VG job as a senior FO for what has become the leading low-cost carrier in Europe to return home to the US (commuting from London every 4-5 months for 2.5 years takes its own toll) to start with a "new" U.S. start-up, flying B757s. I stayed with this company (@ less than 1/2 my previous salary - hey, money is not everything) working my way up to number 1 FO on the seniority list, stayed with them through 2+ years of bankruptcy, involuntarily gave up 15% of my gross salary to "save" the airline, started my Capt upgrade, almost finishing line training/IOE, and then the whole thing went down the toilet! Not only did I lose the job, but the company ran a scam by not paying employees' legitimate medical bills and I'm still paying off these almost a year later just to keep my credit OK. Been unemployed & looking ever since & not a single interview, despite countless cv/resumes & even getting a govt. grant to get another type rating (737NG) which I successfully completed in FEb - but still nothing.
I'm trying to change my way of thinking but again, what does someone my age do? How can I get another (decent?) job for which I neither have experience nor qualifications, if I cannot even get an interview for something I am extremely well qualified & experienced for?
So.....life is not always rosy, Norman, for some of us. Be VERY thankful for what little (or lot) you have & hope luck stays with you for the whole of your career... remember, there's always someone worse off than you & probably through no fault of their own. Aviation is more prevalent to this kind of thing than almost any other career field. When it's good it's great but when it's down, it's the absolute pits.

Yes, I would dearly love to drag myself out of bed @ 0400 and park 2 miles from the terminal and go through that wonderful security and then be dealyed for an hour because we lost our slot. I used to do exactly that & was as enthusiastic as you. Some of us do not have even that luxury now!!!!

P. S. By the way, can anyone make use of THREE ATPLs, five type ratings etc. ?...I can't use them ....going cheap on eBay!!
__________________________

Pie in the Sky......It's Nice To Be Important, but It's More Important to Be Nice!! :confused:

[Horatio]

AlexB757, I can very much sympathize with your experience;a very sad tale. But hell, you know, money isn't always the key to a happy or succesful life. Ask the doctors and lawyers too, they will probably tell you a very different tale of stressful existances, with only a small handful that make it to the top! I bet the average doctor or lawyer would give his 'lot' in for a better life.

Yes, the grass is always greener on the other side. I look back on my time flying and I don't regret one little moment of it. It was exciting, yet I don't miss it now; maybe I'm lucky. Regardless of our own experiences in aviation, I think the original post stands good and that says that the face of flying has changed considerably in the last few years, and not for the better.

Exceptions accepted, of course.

[Farside]

Whooooh never realised so many guys were ready to call it quits!!

[Chocks Away]

"Rationalise the relationship that you have with your employer and with flying in general..."

Well said Capt.U/P.:D

The scales are tipping further away from us, while all loyalty dissappears corespondingly.

...and no NSF, I too, also love flying but am finding the whole job less joyfull, with all these "extras"/complications, either company or Industry induced.

:hmm:

[GULFPILOT76]

Most of the replies to this topic could have come straight from my heart, it's sad to realise a young boys dream has turned into a captains nightmare. Well, may be this is a bit too much but it comes close! I have seen company's, bit by bit nibble off all the goodies of this job. "You are not supposed to have fun,. . . it's to EXPENSIVE"! I also remember the nice time in Bangor (late 80's). Lobster till you die for $7,50 at Captain Nicks. Great hosties ( I was single then) Good allowance. Skiing at Sugar Loaf. A bathtub full of drinks and ice in room #132 at the Holiday Inn. A good time untill you couldn't handle it anymore. Those days are gone, over, done. Maybe I'm getting old, maybe it is the beancounters. Although,. . . I think it's the latter I am arrogant enough to think.

Greetings, and to great times,
GP76.

[pitchtrim]

Interesting thread.

I think a lot of this depends on when you started flying. Many of us who only started in the last few years know no different. We have all heard the stories of the good old days, but that appears to apply in all walks of life, and with all generations. My father in law often tells of horrendous conditions when he was my age, but then 10 mins later he'll go on about how things were ''better in the old days..and how the govt. has ruined this country''

Working for a regional operator we dont get the same perks. (hell we dont even get crew food or breakfast in hotels!)

I've been flying for 15 yrs, with airlines for 5yrs with 3 in the LHS. Times have changed, and I imagine more changes on the horizon, but, I still love flying and look forward to going to work.

[fireflybob]

Sad to say it but I think that, to a greater extent, some of the pilot fraternity have only got themselves to blame for many of these changes.

There are some pilots who if the management said "Fly aeroplanes upside-down today" would meekly obey their order! The "Martini" set still exist, you know, "anytime, any place..."

If all flight deck crew were part of an organisation (dare I even mention the word union!) which had some muscle and bargaining power then our lives would still have just a few perks.

It is obviously not feasible to return to the heady days of yesteryear but we have to get the message across to the bean-counters, the travelling public and the share-holders that pilots still have an enormous responsibility despite the fact that it's all "automatic" these days!

[Jack The Lad]

Nice sentiments Fireflybob, but way off the mark, imho.

The changes in the industry are nothing to do with unions or pilot resolve;they are to do with changing market conditions and economics.

You have two choices, as a pilot nowadays; you accept the change with a positive attitude or they drag you 'kicking and screaming' into the new era.

You can stand alone and fight, if that's your wish, but you'll get trampled on by the ensuing mass. Don't wait too long for your union or 'enssembled mass of fellows' to back you up. Look over your shoulder and there will be nobody standing behind you.

Sad but true!

[Bumz_Rush]

Please, please please, do not tell any one but in corporate it has not changed.......I would suspect that if the B O Fa$ts that are moving over to NetJet, to extend their flying lives are to be beleived then there is life after death.......Met two such gentlmen last month and they were like pigs in sh$t......Wished they had retired !!!!! earlier. Too old for LHS but perfect for the bar stool.......great guys.......

So in conclusion please remember that it is always greener on the other side....

[Capt BK]

I do sympathise, I really do but as a wannabe i'm going for my CPL/IR in 6 months 100%. As a couple of people have said already, "the grass is always greener on the other side". These may sound like empty words when you're redundant and life is hard but the fact of the matter is that by changing the words "aviation" and "flying" in these posts the thread could quite easily apply to any other profession. It's easy not to see that if you've been flying for the last 10+ years. Just about every day on in the news someone is laying off workers or moving overseas - the chances are if you ring your banks main line you'll be put through to India! Give this thread to a bank teller and they will probably choke!

I would love to experienced the old days flying glamorous aircraft to seemingly exotic locations but unfortunately i'm too young and I can only listen to stories. Times have changed and nobody is allowed to enjoy themselves at work anymore.

I'm sure many of you will put me down as too inexperienced to comment or may dismiss me altogether but believe me, things may have deteriorated in aviation but from my side of the fence your jobs are still pretty awe inspiring. Granted the public do not see 95% of the work but from my current low paid, shift work, labourish job I would remove body parts to be where you are (I need my arms, legs and head to fly, so that just leaves... Oh no:{ ).

Good luck to everyone, what ever choice you make but i've decided i'm going to try to make a living, no matter how small, from doing what i've always dreamed. There will be a job going at BP in six months, night shifts, 18k, quite physical, no prospects!

I'm not bitter, just trying to add a little perspective.

[PAXboy]

Speaking from outside of your line of work (like the name says, I am mere pax) then what you are experiencing is the same as everyone else.

In the 23 years that I have been in commerce, I have seen all the changes to which you refer - simply apllied to other fields. In Telecommunications, we used to be a bit of a free roaming bunch. We would turn out for the job at any time of the day or night, get it on the road and were respected for what we did and paid a decent wage.

Now? It is controlled 24 hours a day by a string of managers who have no idea what they are managing. The bean counters make decisions that make our working lives complicated and do so without reference to us. The timescales for a project to be completed take less respect for the work actually involved and more for what the boss has already promised the board. When we tell him (it usually is a 'him') that it won't fit/work in the time available, we are told to lump it or leave it.

When travelling on biz we used to travel 1st on the train and Club on the plane. Now, us lowly folk in telecomms and IT are shoved back down the bus and only the fancy pants that meet the customer, may travel up the front.

People who are less experienced bluff their way into the biz and make enormous headway. I realise that this will not (I hope!) be the same on the flight deck but you will have seen lots of little boys with the word 'manager' in their title, when they can hardly manage their own bladder.

I could go on. You only have to talk to teachers and university lecturers, people in what is left of the UK regional theatre system, the National Health and even central governement. :sad:

So, what you see and experience is no less painful for knowing but ... it is the same as everyone else.

(Unless you work in corporate, it would seem Bumz? ;) )

[Avman]

Ditto for ATC PAXboy. Indeed, the same rings through for so many occupations. With some noteable exceptions many businesses are managed by people who don't have the remotest idea over what they're managing. Job cuts are made under the pretext of market conditions and economics - and what they "save" goes into nice fat bonus payments for themselves in recognition of their great skills! We are being conned people. It's time for a WORKERS REVOLUTION brothers!

[CAT1]

I remember "The good old days"....

Vietnam, coal strikes, paranoia about nuclear attack, four million unemployed.....those were the days.

Then there's "the good old days" my dad had......dropping bombs on civilians, getting shot down in flames, fascist control of Europe, rationing.

Now my grandad....he had a great time on the Somme.....

[fireflybob]

Well it just goes to show that the "40 Year Plan" that we were all programmed to believe and put our faith in is a broken model - it just does not work the way we were told!

i.e. Get a good education, train for a profession and then when you are about 25 years old you go to work for a "good" company for life and then retire at 65 years on this pot of gold called a pension!! And we now have the UK government talking about putting the retirement age up to 70!!

I am sure all of the contributors to this thread, including me, love flying aeroplanes and despite all the insecurities of the airline industry the best bit is once the wheels are off the ground.

However, we should not expect a "J.O.B" (Just Over Broke) on it's own to fulfill all our expectations. My advice is do NOT put all you eggs in one basket. By all means fly for a living but safeguard your financial future by doing other things.

Oh and by the way, the reference to money not making you happy - well, I have had it and not had it and I know which I prefer!! Money doesn't solve everything but at least you can arrive at your challenges in style.

[ShenziRubani]

Capt BK, I go along with your thread, you are right.
I am sorry to see that so many of you feel bitter and kindda sad about the job. Of course you have lived the amazing years of commercial aviation and things that none of us would ever experience. But things change, they always change, they have always changed, and it is sad to see that some do take it so seriously.
I respect all of you who have been flying our dream machine for the last 25 years, those of you that have made us dream of becoming a pilot one day when we were looking at you coming down the alley with your flashy stripes and your hats. I always felt this incredibly strong feeling of admiration, dream and respect.
And I loved planes, from as far as I can remember, I love planes.
Today, I fly commercially, a job most of you 'old boys' would never do or have never gone for, somewhere in Africa, ****ty little singles and twins, overweight most of the time, crappy weather with no radio aid, and for a crap pay (compared to the 6 figures some of you, my Lords, have been clearing in the "Golden Age" of aviation - go discuss this to someone doing under $18K and working 8 hours a day, 7 days a week). But I love it. I always wanted to do it, I always wanted to fly those machines and what better than being paid for it. And I remember seeing you coming down the alley and I have a big smile on my face. From here I will probably go regional or maybe corporate, or even cargo, and I guess that in 20 years I'll be complaining too about the conditions, about the wages, about the changing times. And I'll remember this thread, but today I love it, I wouldn't do any other job, even for more money. Oh yeah, I'm one of these stupid romantics. Until I become one of those grumpy old men.

Yes, I guess there's a better career prospect at McDonald or Disney, and if I'm lucky I could save enough to fly on weekends. Well, I think it would be really good for a lot of us, if the unhappy ones decide to leave, retire, and go fishing the tarpon.

Let's not be too extreme though, I understand that it has changed in the wrong direction, and it is really not as great as it was, but for those who entered the career in the last years, it is still a very nice, fun, job, and we know we won't make the big pay you had, but we'll still do it as good as you did it and with the same passion.

[Onan the Clumsy]

PAXboy It is controlled 24 hours a day by a string of managers who have no idea what they are managing.
I agree 100%.

[brakedwell]

Good for you Shenzi

I too was mad keen to fly anything in my youth, and to honest a bit beyond that too. Don't knock what you are doing now. The experience will serve you well in the future. Clapped out planes and African conditions will give you a good grounding in airmanship. As we get older and the conditions more cushy and the challenge fades we get bored and upset about the wrong things. In later years when something really pissed me off, I used to say to myself: just remember the s**t you put up with in **** airlines and I would thank my lucky stars. And looking back? I wouldn't change much if I had my time again.
Jambo

[James Bond-age]

I can see where you lads are coming from- even with my limited experience. I started flying commercialy in late 2000 as a lowly flight instructor (still am). To me, the good old days are pre-9/11. Training has tanked ever since. I wish I had the oppertunity to have seen 'the good old days'. Flying still gets me excited but I wonder how much longer it will take before that fades with the current climate. Prospects are dim- but I'm hanging in there. My advice for the others with more experience is to do the same for as long as you can. I've had way worse jobs than this and have no desire to go back. You'll know when to throw in the towel the day you can't get out of bed and go to work. Until then, think of all the poor bastards like me that will never know half the pleasure in this job you had in the past- and be thankful for what you have had! I'm just glad I could get out of bed this morning- I'll see about tomorrow........Good luck to all.

[Prince of Dzun]

Farside:

Granted all is not as it was but shouldn't you occasionally ask yourself where would you be if it was not for aviation. It was Antoine de Saint Exupery who said : " Flying raises a man from mediocrity " and 1200 years before that Li Tai Pai, Tang Dynasty poet said :

" When one has good wine,
A graceful boat,
And a maiden's love,
Why envy the immortal Gods. "

Most people can't understand that the only thing that does not change is that everything changes. Think about that and be glad you are not of the masses.
Regards,

Prince of Dzun

[Earl]

Yes I really like this topic and where does it lead us.
Where do we go from here?
I was taught in the Military that we operate within a set state of standards.
Once we exceed or break that standard then we establish a new standard.
If allowed to continue before too long we have no standards at all.
Is this what we ourselves have caused by letting the upper management change everything?
Then when we complain they say, You are lucky to have a job, 10 pilots would give their eye teeth to be where you are at.

[keepin it in trim]

I was lucky enough to have nearly 20 years of flying in the military before coming out into commercial aviation. The aircraft I flew were either built or designed before I was born and, to my great good fortune, I flew with a wide variety of old and bold aviators - most of whom have sadly now retired.

My goodness did I learn a lot about flying! I still try and pass on some of the many gems I picked up from these fine people (sadly I have probably forgotten more than half of it and I probably don't pass it on half as well).

I remember some excellent times seeing the sun come up, watching the northern lights, flashing across a hillside at first light at low level. Going down town overseas mob-handed.

Now I fly for a small/medium commercial operation and I am that little bit older but there is still nothing that quite matches getting your backside off the ground on a good day and really operating the machine to its and your full capabilities.

Remember, these are tomorrows good old days - and when it all comes together, flying is still the Sport of Kings!

[Earl]

Yes I can relate.
Even the O dark thirty alerts then flying low level at 500 feet AGL
then going to 1000 feet an doing the drop, repeating just once for practice, then going to the club for a beer.
Everything was prepared for you, weather Etc.
Boy were we ever spoiled.
Now its departure times changed three times in one day.
After a 14 hour day then its a 6 hour bus ride from Manston to Manchester.
Only to find that your crew base has changed to a different Continent. An you need to move with only 23 Kilos of baggaged allowed. You have been away for 5 weeks already!
Then the out of pocket expences you have been trying to re-coup for months is not allowed due to the station not having enough money to reinburse you, only to find you have to spend much more to get to your next base, taxi bus etc.
Its only getting worse, new standards that we allow.

[BEagle]

We're not so much talking about "When I were a lad" here, we're discussing how things have gone downhill in about the last 4 years or so.

Yellow-jacket mentality, security frisking by some bottom-fondling failed wheelclamper, increased working periods, fewer breaks unless the bean counters are forced to schedule them, being locked in the flight deck, not being permitted to wander around and chat to the passengers.....all these have contributed to making an airline job pretty unappealing. I'm leaving the military with over 5000 hours on the VC10, 4000+ in command and 2500+ as a training captain. I have an ATPL - but there's no way I'd want to put up with the bus drivers' life of an airline pilot.

Good luck to those who still want to be airline pilots.....

[Prince of Dzun]

BEagle:

With the greatest respect I must point out that you appear to have missed the point and I feel this is because you have been spoiled.To get an understanding of what we are discussing why don't you duck across to the USA or come down to New Zealand or Australia and try your hand at crop spraying. Dust the sides of some mountains and spray a few fields of wheat and thus learn something about survival flying. It would help you appreciate the world of the airline pilot. Regards,

Prince of Dzun

[BEagle]

Would love to! Real flying like that sounds a lot more fun than bus driving!

A well-respected avaition organisation has recently recognised that "The kudos, rewards and conditions in the airline industry are no longer sufficient to attract the best quality individuals to the profession".

[Chocks Away]

Avman... I'm hearin yuh !:cool:

"It's time for a WORKERS REVOLUTION brothers!"

Amen Brother.

[Panama Jack]

:ouch: :ouch: :ouch:

I can certainly identify with this. Anytime I watch "Catch Me if You Can," I cannot help but marvel and think that maybe I was born 30 years too late.

Here I am, at 30 years old having flown for the last 15. I went at it full tilt sparing no energy, enthusiasm or cash to get into this career line (including getting an aviation related Bachelor's degree from a prestigious university) and now . . . I promise myself that I will do all I can to disuade my daughter from being a pilot. But heck, then I only see her a couple of weeks every 3 months and my wife and I aren't even separated or divorced?

Yeah, there are great memories. Seen great sunrises and sunsets. Landing and being surrounded by banana trees, landing on desert mesas, seeing gorgeous glaciers from below mountain peak level, and others. I have travelled to many places.

But there are so many negatives. I've never managed to hold any aviation job for more than 2 years-- the industry is too unstable so the first thing I do when I start a new job is update my resume and send more of them out. I have rarely been able to make ends meet. I have met some of the bizarest personalities. There are those unwilling to advance you, despite competency and qualifications because they feel that you have not yet "paid your dues" enough. I also remember being invited for dinner by one boss-- expecting to be congratulated for all the hard work I had done for the company only to be the next victim of his paranoid witch hunt and told that I would be terminated (never mind that it was the day before my daughter had to go in for an operation). I have seen pension funds raided to keep a money loosing companies afloat. I have seen our suggestions been thrown by the wayside by management with the condescending attitude of "you don't see the big picture" while the Company loses mega bucks and then comes to the employees demanding "we must all pitch in by making sacrifices" (a.k.a. wage cuts).

Now I find myself in what could be a dream job, but in one novel I read someone explained to the protagonist that "there is no paradise on earth, something must always be imperfect otherwise nobody would want to go to heaven."

I am making good money now (something I have never been accustomed too, hence our single compact 12-year old car). I am also flying very rarely and being treated and fed fairly decently. But here too, things are in decline, the stability and mid to long term prospect wears a big question mark. There has been a constant strain on my family life, I have never been able to know whether I could maintain a "normal" standard of living and I wonder if I will ever have enough money to pay my daughter's college tuition or to retire comfortably (without having to move in with my daughter and her family some day). :sad:

Another colleague, a couple years older and also an FO, is seriously thinking about leaving aviation. I sometimes wonder whether I would have had the talent to become a lawyer or some other professional. It overjoys us, at least, when I see our 3 year old putting a bandage on "Teddy" or telling one of her dolls to "take all your medicine and you will feel better."

[FLEXPWR]

Hi All,

I have been in the aviation industry for a few years now, got a few hours, an ATP, and a left seat on a regional airplane. I have always been interested in knowing to the best I can my airplane, the aircraft systems, the performance, etc., so I try to get the best of my flying time, and, yes, looking for that little satisfaction, maybe, when at the end of the day I can say : "I did my best, and I will keep trying"

Now here is the thing: I do not find a lot of enthousiasts in the airline business, more of pilots who feel it's just "another job".

In the company I am now, I came up with suggestions to save 25,000 USD per year per airplane, without any additional investment. The representative of the pilots (a pilot himself) just replies:"I don'tcare about that kind of paper, I just put the throttles forward, and then look out the window for the landscape).

I don't know if you get the picture, but WHERE IS THE PASSION? Where is the enthousiasm, the drive of making a better, safer, day in flying?

I started aviation in flying gliders, like some of you. There was a real sense of willingness, and we were not even paid for it.

Maybe some will think "get a life", hey, I have a life, live in a beautiful place, enjoy my time off with people I love.

But I chose aviation because it is some kindamagic thing, and I wonder if there is any airline or pilots who realises what a difference it makes to have individuals that are motivated beyond the money, or the prestige, or the power.

English is not my primary language, so hope there is no mis-statements, but I am sure most will get the general idea.

Any replies welcome

[Chocks Away]

... what a strong response...worldwide:ouch:

This shows it's not isolated in just some regional areas, as certain business morals take effect...:eek:

It has tapped a vein alright, and its a strong one Jim.

[I. M. Esperto]

Our #6 son wanted to fly. I encouraged him. Extremely intelligent, perfect shape, he enrolled in the AFROTC.

Upon graduating with honors, he applied for flight training. Shot down. "Wrong race and gender, kid, we'll put you on a list."

He served his time, studied accounting, and was accepted by Wharton in PHL. He just graduated with honors with his MBA. He stepped right into a job with a good future, 30 days paid vacation, and $115,000 P/A. How many 30 year old pilots can say this?

Times here are tough, and a lot of the graduates are still looking. Three years ago, the graduates were swamped by recruiters. Not so this year, but the best job went to a friend who is guaranteed 250G's plus commissions on Wall Street.

You really have to like your job, or it's not worth it today.

[Tripower455]

Sad to say it but I think that, to a greater extent, some of the pilot fraternity have only got themselves to blame for many of these changes.

There are some pilots who if the management said "Fly aeroplanes upside-down today" would meekly obey their order! The "Martini" set still exist, you know, "anytime, any place..."

If all flight deck crew were part of an organisation (dare I even mention the word union!) which had some muscle and bargaining power then our lives would still have just a few perks.


It is obviously not feasible to return to the heady days of yesteryear but we have to get the message across to the bean-counters, the travelling public and the share-holders that pilots still have an enormous responsibility despite the fact that it's all "automatic" these days!

I agree 100% with this entire post. WE have allowed people who have no clue about what we do micromanage the entire industry. WE have rolled over on every issue from "security" (a complete joke) to drug testing.

The first issue that WE rolled over on since I've been in the industry was flight crew "security" screening. Where exactly is the logic of subjecting flight crew to passenger screening. Especially when the REASON that we had to be subject to screening was due to the actions of a GROUND OPS (PSA 1771) employee, who, ironically, are STILL not subject to passenger or any other type of screening.

If you are going to choose just 2 employee groups to be screened as passengers, why choose the only 2 employee groups (pilots and flight attendants) that don't need a weapon to "take over" the aircraft. It gives us a zero net gain in actual aircraft security, yet a 100% net gain in flight crew AND passenger inconvenience (since we jump to the front of the line).

Ditto for drug/alcohol testing... A couple of train drivers take the Grateful Dead's advice and drive the train, high on cocaine, so WE get mandatory, random drug testing...........at the end of our trip on OUR time, when we would otherwise be going home. Excuse me, but, if this is actually a problem, then wouldn't it make more sense to test us before, or during our trip?

These are ony 2 serious issues in the last 15 years that WE could have had some say in, but for whatever reason, chose not to.

Prior to 9/11, as a B-737 Capt. I was personally responsible for over $12 billion of liability (total loss of a full airplane, not counting anything that is hit on the ground), which has gone up since 9/11.

In a nutshell, either I am a trusted employee, or I'm not. If I am not a trusted employee, then I should not be in command of a 130,000 lb cruise missile. If I am a trusted employee, then I should not be standing in my socks every day, silently absorbing the condescending comments from HS dropouts. All the passenger screening in the world is not going to change the fact that I will have complete control of the airplane just minutes after my small tools and toiltries are pilferred.

I can't help wondering what Ernest K Gann, Dave Behncke, Ed Musick or any of the others who paved the road that our profession ride on would say to the tsA employee that forced them to remove their shoes or belt............

[Prince of Dzun]

ALL:

For those of you who have Antoine de Saint Exupery's 'Wind Sand and Stars ' on your bookshelf may I suggest you take it down and re-read pages 11,12 and 13. They contain a graphic description of St. Ex's feelings towards the non flying workers who travelled on the airport bus with him one bleak Parisian morning. He compares his life as a pilot to theirs and he speaks of how the " clay that formed them has dried and hardened ". He reflects on the fact that within two hours of stepping off that bus he will be confronting " dark dragons" high above the earth. He leaves it for the reader to ponder the dreary life of those men of clay who ride the bus everyday. Written in 1938 but still applicable to today and especially relevant to this discussion.

Prince of Dzun

[Bigmouth]

And if our unions would come to their senses and drop the absurdity that we call seniority lists, then our employers would actually have to come up with incentives to retain our services and alexb757 would have a decent job today.


Yeah, yeah I know. I just won´t let it go.

[Nineiron]

Used to drink with a guy who reckoned that things would never be same until airlines had HP42s or flying boats again. He remembered the days when the captain stayed in a separate hotel to be entertained by colonial dignitaries. His first officer often walked respectfully behind him carrying his briefcase. The purser, doubled as 'Ship's clerk' and did all the paperwork.
Now I'm coming near retirement and the 'good old days' were the freight runs to the far east and back. Hauled by four propellers it used to take us ten days for one trip, 8 hotels.
What will be 'the good old days' the present generation will recall?

[I. M. Esperto]

In the 1970's TWA had pairings that would allow you to fly only 4 or 5 trips a quarter, depending on the bow wave from the previous quarter. Included were around the world pairings, Polar flights, etc..

Long trips, many hotels, but good trips. They went senior.

[wasdale]

Cat1


I would rather be on the Somme.

[I. M. Esperto]

Prinz - Thanks for mentioning Wind, Sand and Stars. The man is a real philosopher.
http://www.doyletics.com/arj/wsasrvw.htm

I must get that book.

Bigmouth - Shut it. How long do you think you'd last without a union seniority list? The older you got the more apprehensive you'd become about the future. That's no carreer, that's a nightmare.

[White Knight]

I don't care about the money - I've done other well paid jobs during my REDUNDANT years, but for me flying is what I LOVE TO DO.
Yes, security is a right pain in the ARSE - especially when some 19 year old A-level failure starts questioning me when I go through security for the tenth time in a week - closed flightdeck doors are a pain in the arse because it screws the working relationship with CC, and the list goes on. BUT, when I'm sitting there at FL 390 and seeing another fantastic sunrise over some obscure mountain-range that no-one has ever heard of I know that I'm where I really want to be. 16 years since I soloed, thousands of hours in single/ multi pilot aeroplanes and I still EFFING love it.
For all of you doomsdayers out there put that in your pipe and gag on it. To all of the wannabes - stick with it, it's still the best paid HOBBY :ok: :ok: :ok: in the world..

[Neo]

White Knight -

To whose rescue are you riding, airline management?

If things go on the way they are, I will get a better paid job outside flying and still ENJOY flying as a true HOBBY.

Most of us who fly professionally enjoy it; I suspect that's why we have put up with some shoddy management far longer than other professionals such as barristers and doctors. However, current trends suggest that our status will be reduced to that of bus drivers with similar pay and conditions.

So I don't regard it as a hobby, otherwise airline managements would be out charging plane spotters for the privilege of doing it. Perhaps you should reconsider your attitude, you'll get fleeced otherwise.

And now is not the time to put a gag in it, quite the opposite. Given the option, would you rather fly for nothing or for a decent salary?

Thought so.

[Private jet]

I'm sure that the "golden age" of airline flying ended a dozen or so years ago. I was fortunate to go into private/corporate flying and have not regreted it for one second. No seniority lists, no office politics, an aircraft thats "clean" both technically and hygienically, no 6 sector days....bliss.

[Prince of Dzun]

I.M. Esperto:

Thanks for putting up the website that reviewed Antoine de Saint Exupery's " Wind Sand and Stars ". It is one of the best reviews I have read and truly captures the spirit of his book.
Many have enthralled and entertained with aviation writings but it is only St. Ex who makes us think.
Regards,

Prince of Dzun

[Cardinal Puff]

Currently working in Africa and have been for all my aviation career. Where I'm from my complexion and gender preclude me from any worthwhile airline job so I've been operating in the bush. Flown the venerable DC3, mighty Twotter, 748s, F27s, and most light singles and twins in some pretty rough conditions. Been shot at, jailed, bombed, taken hostage and had some pretty close shaves with the wildlife. Fetched my boss and some colleagues in body bags two hours after dropping them off in a remote location. Flown some dodgy types and watched the nose gear through a hole in the floor or had a cup of tea and a stew made on a gas stove in the back by a friendly engineer. Had a great time and met some good people, most of whom I regard as friends.

Left a well paying IT job to fly. Couldn't crap in my boss' ashtray the day I left as the bastard was out to lunch. Battled along for months with no pay from some dodgy operators where I ended up paying for the boss' BMW, ostensibly to keep the company afloat (Yeah, I'm fick). In the end I now have a good/reasonable job flying big noisy smelly beasts with bad attitudes for not much money but enjoying every minute.

In all I reckon it was a good move and my only regret is that I took so much time to get off my backside and start flying. Wish I'd tried to crap in my ex boss' ashtray much earlier.........

[millerscourt]

NEO With views like those of White Knight is it any wonder this job is going the way it is!! He (White Knight) is a fairly new F/O with Emirates who waxes lyrical about his paid 'Hobby' at every opportunity. When I join Emirates as a DEC I will soon sort him out!! He will probably change his tune when that event occurs if it ever does!

[Farside]

White Knight, with all due respect but I don,t want to be the best paid hobbiest, I just like to be a fair paid proffessional!! And not only fair paid, also fair treated, and that's where very often the problem lies.

[Airbus Girl]

I agree with most of the postings. Flying was not my first career, that didn't pay well enough! Although I enjoy the bit between shutting the doors to arriving at the other end, its all the other stuff that drives me nuts. I cannot imagine doing this job for another 30 years and my plan is not too.

The things that get my goat about security:-

They search me for anything "dangerous". They ignore my can opener and never search my shoes. But does it even matter? As soon as I get to the aircraft I have an axe within arms reach.

When returning from a flight, trying to get back to landside, with an entire crew in uniform, I get awkward security staff wanting to see my ID pass before they will open the door. Why? I am already airside, its very very obvious that I am crew off a flight, and I am only trying to get back into a building that allows anyone into it from landside. I don't understand.

Rant over.

[Tripower455]

The things that get my goat about security:-

They search me for anything "dangerous". They ignore my can opener and never search my shoes. But does it even matter? As soon as I get to the aircraft I have an axe within arms reach.

When returning from a flight, trying to get back to landside, with an entire crew in uniform, I get awkward security staff wanting to see my ID pass before they will open the door. Why? I am already airside, its very very obvious that I am crew off a flight, and I am only trying to get back into a building that allows anyone into it from landside. I don't understand.


Amen Sister!

Doesn't make a lot of sense to pilfer "dangerous" items like can openers etc., ostensibly to prevent you from taking over the plane, when that's exactly what you will do not minutes after they take them!

WE allow them to continue the show......

[I. M. Esperto]

Hey Girl, you ought to write a BOOK!

In fact, there are enough examples in this thread that some talented journalist (I think there are about 7 of them, somewhere) shoul use them as a start for a book.

[BEagle]

Just back from FRA tonight..........

Tried to use the LH 'rapid check-in' machine - it didn't work. Neither did 2 others. The women in charge finally did things manually. Then the security check - everything metallic into the bin, walk through the metal detector then pick everything up again. Show passport to unsmiling cop at passport control. Do some shopping, show boarding card to assistant. Walk down towards gate, on the way get asked by some fat woman with dreadlocks and no uniform to show boarding card again. A few feet further on, another security check - everything metallic into the bin, walk through the metal detector then pick everything up again. This time get frisked as well. Then on to boarding gate - show effing passport and boarding card yet again. On to LH A319, across to LHR. Passport again - then wait ages for luggage in that pig sty called LHR T2. Get home to find an arrogant note inside my luggage from the Bundesgrenzschutzamt stating that they had opened my luggage without my knowledge and that it was 'checked manually by airport security agents authorized by the German government'.............

What the f*ck is going on?

[Tan]

The only way that anyone is going to pay attention to this insanity is to shut the operation worldwide..

[Ignition Override]

The good old days might have begun to fade when the flight attendants here were no longer required to be young, good-looking, single females.

As for some of the large, impersonal corporations: some of the people who fly a desk at the airlines are probably jealous of the limited authority (and sometimes, the days off in a row) which many pilots still have, and by increasing the number of company policies, procedures and limitations along with an attempt to enforce more regimentation, they attempt to:

1) place more liability on the flightcrews.

2) try to fly our planes from their desks/cubicles.

And by very liberally using the phrase "force majeur" and "etc" as loopholes, they can now disregard almost anything in a labor contract-even when the latest pilot furlough notices here are to take place NEXT winter! There must be a good bit of shared legal "expertise" over here between the various airlines, in order to punch large holes in the "scope" agreements. The ATA is the powerful industry lobby group which would love to throw away the Railway Labor Act, which governs the US airline negotiation (+mediation and arbitration) procedures.

What is this process called in Britain and other places?:suspect:

[maxy101]

Ignition Override- In the U.K the process is called BALPA

[The Trappist]

This topic struck a deep chord with all the aviating guys at the Orval bar, with many a tale (tail?) about days of yore. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and it is a well-known phenomenon that we all look back through rose tinted glasses.
This could be a very long posting, however, the bottom line is; the only pilots who didn't want to retire were those with no pension expectations!

Be Happy :D

[Bart Bandy]

I can only agree with the vast majority of posts on this subject.The job has gone downhill so far you wouldn't be able to see your sorry rear end with a very large telescope from where I started out. 2 hours max out from home 1 hour turnround 2 hours max back and in the Pub with a jumper over your uniform shirt for a few beers before lunch time closing was the norm for an early start,just take your epaulettes off before diving into Pinchins Parlour in the evening.More than 2 sectors a day? you cannot be serious,man!
As for 'security'-- I suspect those of you who quite rightly moan about this farce miss the point. We have to be seen by the punters as often as possible taking this flak as it 'sends a message' that everything possible is being done to keep them safe.The comments about A level failed security operatives is well taken. The trouble is the lunatics really have taken over every ward of the assylum and those of us of a certain age have probably helped them by promising ourselves that we'ld be Mr. NiceGuy when we got a command instead of the real b******* we flew with in our youth. They were a disaster area in every respect except they were respected,to their faces at least,and a lot followed on from that in terms of the jobs status and the way we were treated. In the odd idle moment I often wonder how some of the wartime members would take to the way the 'other ranks' behave towards us now.
Hope this is contentious enough to keep the string going a while longer.

[maxy101]

I think you have a valid point BB! At least in the "old days" , one never doubted who was in charge.....

[John Barnes]

The pilots in SIA are working like camels and live like horses. Some of the luckier ones in lets say Cathay work like horses and live like human beings, but only the choosen few in some of the bigger American carriers work like human beings and live like Kings!! And although the problems with Sars in Asia seems to get better, the industrial relations in SIA get worse by the day. Dark and gloomy skies ahead.

[Carbon Life Form]

Where I work, when I first joined it was an abysymal place to work , morale was shattered after Lorenzo's
trip through Bankruptcy court and overnight abrogation of all union contracts, with pilots being told to like it or lump it, hundreds went out on strike, some to return after many years, many never did and were replaced by opportunists. scabs what ever you want to call them.

Most excess cash flow was redirected back into Lorenzo's pockets, or further wasted by his disastrous attempt to acquire Eastern, which if it had been done correctly and managed well would have resulted in a formidable airline. The only tactic's he knew however were slash and burn, unfortunately their mechanics tried to face him down and lost.

So, after destroying thousands more livelihoods he went back to
his 'running' of our airline in which he had no interest, a creature of the 80's and fan of the leveraged buyout <the movie 'Wall Street' was largely based on him and his croney Michael Milken>

We limped along through another bankruptcy, our actual operation was embarassing. I was a 727 Engineer at the time and spent most of my preflight working out the procedures, and legality of the copious amount of MELS. 70% of the aircraft I flew had at least one Generator a fuel tank guage and a pack fan
inoperative as well as numerous other defects.

A couple of incidents come to mind, arriving at the gate in the late
80's In July in Houston I was the first to board the aircraft and walked into an absolute oven the cabin temperature was over 150
degrees although unusually the APU was operative, both pack fans were inoperative allowing pack use only once airborne,
Ater requesting that preconditioned air be connected I was told there were no servicable A/C carts available . That was easy to believe, amazingly the Captain <one of our heroic strike breakers> accepted the aircraft in that condition and we set off to
Los-Angeles, I do remember never being in that hot an aircraft before or after, and that the cabin temp guage went off the upper limits of its range.

It took us two thirds of the flight to cool the cabin down, crew and passengers were in a miserable state, I certainly would have got off if I had a choice.

In the other incident the Aircraft we were given that day had one generator inoperative <and had been so for three weeks> in the 727 of course the APU cannot be used in flight eliminating that as an electrical back-up.

Also for all its complexity the electrical system was the the aircrafts big weakness, requiring significant
and immediate manual downloads with the loss of one generator
and massive downloads with the loss of two.

The inevitable happened of course and halfway to our destination
we lost a second generator, we were fortunate in that we had a severe clear day all the way to our destination and were able to
continue and land.

My only constant thoughts at the time were to get some right seat experience and get the hell out. After four years in the rear seat I
upgraded to First Officer on the 727, this was certainly a lot better
at least I was flying again and I loved that aircraft, it was a real thrill to fly, and best of all that was all I had to do, the Engineer doing 90% of the work.

I slowly accumulated the experience I needed to move on, remarkably though the airline started a slow but gradual improvement itself, mainly due to new, competent management,
aditionally in large part though, due to the sacrifices of the Employees. In fact things improved so much that I shelved my plan to go elsewhere, turning down an opportunity to work for an Airline I had pursued aggressively.

New aircraft started to arrive and I started to move up the seniority list, after another three years in the right seat of the 727,
I switched to the MD80 for better seniority for three more, then moved to the 757, and the 767 as they arrived, which i'm flying now.


In July of 2001 I was awarded a captains seat on the 737, finally
after fourteen years I was giong to upgrade, as there had been no expansion, numerous furloughs and minimal expansion this was how long it took, things really seemed to be going well.

I was asleep in my morning nap in Madrid on September 11th 2001
when the phone rang, the Captain told me of the incredible news
and I turned the TV on in time to see the second aircraft hit.

Over the next few days stuck in Madrid we tried to absorb the second shock of massive imminent furloughs, of course that long awaited Captains training class was immediately cancelled.

All very depressing, but on the other side of the coin I was senior enough to not be too adversely affected, and was able to stay on
the 76 albeit further down the list.

Probably just as damaging to myself and my peers was our signing off on a recent contract that, although increased salaries significantly, also allowed management to bring in unlimited numbers of regional jets, although I did not vote personally for the contract
the large number of strikebreakers still in the airline swung the vote in their particular base to an overall approval and it was voted in.

Despite managements assurances to the contrary they immediately started to replace a sizable portion of our flying with these aircraft, drastically reducing our upward progress as mainline aircraft went to the desert.


So good old days? I don't know, I come from an entirely civilian background and was fortunate enough to be hired by a major airline at 24 years old although I did work very hard to do that


there was never much merriment in the old days here but as time moved on and we moved into this politically correct world, contrary to many other peoples experiences our 'workplace improved dramatically' with our arlines improving operation.

Without being insensitive to our extremely unfortunate pilots currently on furlough, morale is on the upswing again as there does appear to be light at the end of the tunnel and we are one of the best managed American Airlines.

I still make a good living I hope that left seat comes back before too long, but I enjoy flying the 767 very much and have seen a good portion of the world in it, flying as far south as Rio De Janeiro
west to Tokyo and East to Rome, so its always interesting, although very tiring to do year after year, the occasional 757 domestic trip is a welcome break.

Having just turned 40 I have a few years left if my health holds up
to upgrade, and I hope they don't extend the retirement age.
I miss the older aircraft as well and they were more exciting and at least different in many ways. But I wouldn't want to go back to them now

[Flying Bagel]

I, for one, as a relative newcomer to this industry, would obviously be an optimist. Afterall, this is my lifelong dream, and not to mention that I left behind a very unsatisfactory career (which for some would also constitute a dream job), I have but no option to continue.

However, after choosing to leave my prior career, I realized that, perhaps, I've been misleading myself in terms of what I should expect from life. At the outset of that career, it was quite nice, and I was happy to work 80 hours a week, and drink for six. But then, it started to take it's toll on me, and with only two weeks of vacation per year (which I could never take anyway), I started becoming disillusioned and bitter. And this was after three promotions in less than half a decade.

It was quite disappointing to think that dreams like that can fade so easily, wane in the distance, because reality is never like what we envisioned it to be. Thought it was going to be glamourous, fantastic, and big money down the coffers. The truth, as a matter of fact, wasn't far off. At least 10% of the time anyway.

But then, I also came to the realization that, in this world, there is no such thing as a dream job anymore, and that almost every job has its compromises. Speaking to my friends, some of whom have been laid off since the tech bust, and others who work in menial accountancy and secretarial jobs, it doesn't seem like there is a whole lot out there. A close friend of mine who works at the monolith that is IBM is quite content with his job, but that's because he knows if he tried to quit, he would probably spend the rest of his life on the welfare line. For the most part, everyone prefers to be a rancher somewhere in Texas, or a ski bunny at Val d'Isere. As I look at my meagre savings in my pockets, those things are merely the pipe dreams of my own imagination.

So when it came to aviation, I look at all my junior colleagues, and revel in their enthusiasm. Afterall, flying an airplane sure beats sitting in a friggin office 12 hours a day.

[Tom the Tenor]

Trying to remain positive about aviation even for just an enthusiast like myself is a kind of duty in way - look on the bright side etc. However, you can tell things are now really going off the wall. Yesterday, we were seeing a relation off at Cork on her way back to Stansted and whilst hanging around a U. S. Navy Super King Air arrived. Very nice, says I to myself, very smart. Then we accompany our elderly relation to the security point at the boarding area. Hugs and kisses etc. The flight crew from the U. S. Navy Super King Air arrive at the same security point with cold plates bought from the restaurant and begin conversation with the young security official about what is next etc. Security official defers to a higher order so a real Airport Policeman dressed in what was like the Aer Lingus captain's uniform of about twenty years ago and the four gold bars to boot(!) arrives on scene and has quick words with the U. S. Navy crew and quickly accompanies them around the small queue of passengers to the scanner. Now, I lost sight momentarily of the goings on but then the next thing I see is colleagues of the younger security official ably frisking the U. S. Navy guys before allowing them to continue! I may be off the mark but as a military aircraft the Super King Air parked outside on the Cork ramp may well have some side arms at least stowed away for the crew's protection? The real gods of aviation now are airport security officers - some of them are even wearing Ray Bans! Loony, loony times all right.