Ryanair Money Programme 04/06 [Archive]

brabazon

5th Jun 2003, 16:57

one four sick

Air Passenger Duty is applied by every airline equally, I don't think MOL would like it abolished as he makes money out of those people who cancel and who therefore whose duty is not liable to pass on. Try claiming it back? No sorry too much hassle.

Beyond that you get charged various airport taxes which may or may not relate to the charges incurred by Ryanair.

Yep, you can get cheap fares on Ryanair and yep the average fare is lower than any other airline, BUT some people who book late are paying a LOT e.g. 300 Euros return and could be better checking out a full-service carrier.

MOL's total lack of appreciation of the problems of the disabled passenger were incredible - let us hop that he never has the inconvenience of being in that situation.

While the programme did cover most of the reasons for Ryanair's success it fell into the vogue for dumbing things down and filling time with lots of shots of aircraft taking off and landing. The Money Programme used to do things better.

A/P Disc

5th Jun 2003, 17:02

One Four Sick:

But he does make money from the car that you hired or
the bus that you paid money for to get you downtown (after
about an hour...) I was surprised that the BBC didn't mention the
conditions for being hired at Ryanair. Paying for your CV to be
read, paying for your own type rating,not being allowed to join a
junion etc.

Just a question (I don't know anybody flying there):

Are the employees happy working there and do they see
any money back from the profits?

And no, I've never tried to get into Ryanair so no grudges.

Rgds.

newswatcher

5th Jun 2003, 17:02

One four sick, on a Ryanair flight STN/CIA/STN in July, you will pay £6 PSC, £1.86 ins and £5 departure tax going out, and £5.74 govt. tax, £1.86 ins, and £2.82 Airport tax coming back - £23.28.

Not sure why you didn't see a PSC!
Insurance Levy - With effect from Friday the 28th September Ryanair will be imposing this levy (in local currency equivalent) as part of the Passenger Service Charge on each itinerary for all flights after the 30th September. We hope that the necessity for this levy will not be long term and we will immediately reduce or remove it when possible.

cortilla

5th Jun 2003, 17:07

2 Points which the programme forgot to mention (or didn't know about??) in the way that ryanair makes/saves money.
1. Make your new pilots pay for their own rating (becoming more and more accepted, but i think it was ryan who started it as policy)
2. make your baggage allowance 15kg and then charge £4 for every kilo over. I know it's nit picking but most airlines don't mind if you're a couple of KG's over (I flew with 30kg's once from singapore to heathrow where my allowance was 20 but i just chatted away and all they did was put a heavy sticker on it) not ryanair.

Having said all that I still love flying with them, and imagine what prices would be nowadays if it wasn't for low cost airlines. As they always keep on saying on ITV's F1 show, they're keeping the other team (read airlines) honest

one four sick

5th Jun 2003, 17:30

A/P Disc

Of course he makes money from the car you've hired, so would anyone else that set up a deal as such. Good on him.
Presumably you wouldn't hire it at the wrong price though!

newswatcher

I have "booked" those flights with Ryanair just now:

London Stansted (STN)
Rome Ciampino (CIA)
London Stansted (STN) 10 Jul-16Jul

Cost: 19.99 GBP o/b - 7.99 GBP i/b total: 51.66 GBP

British Airways

LHR-FCO-LHR

9-15 Jul

Total cost: £ 118.50

Who do you think I should fly with?

5th Jun 2003, 17:41

Thought it portrayed the airline in a fair light. One thing I did enjoy was seeing MOL squirm when asked what the maximum one-way charge on a typical Ryanair flight was - £179.99!! :uhoh:

And since when does BA serve Champagne in shorthaul economy?...think that was stretching the comparisons a bit!

No, I think they're great; best of luck to them.

Boeingman

5th Jun 2003, 17:56

I have just booked my cousins family STN-BGY-GRO-STN at a superbly low price.

When I gave her the good news she quipped ' how on earth can they afford to maintain their aircraft at that price?'

She's still going though.

Config

5th Jun 2003, 18:04

newswatcher

It would appear that the passengers don't care about all those points either!

newswatcher

5th Jun 2003, 18:06

one four sick, I thinnk you misunderstand me. I am not disputing that Ryanair can be the "cheapest" airline, I was merely trying to establish that, when someone says that they have flown from A-B at a certain price, then that should be the total for the tickets. Something that Easyjet got into trouble about recently!http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2961528.stm

config, agreed, the original suggestion by rupetime was that Ryanair came out of it wellMy original post outlined what I believed the BBC had said!

rupetime

5th Jun 2003, 18:29

MOL was saying that 70% of his seats are cheapies its the 30% where he makes his money - that will include the taxes and psc - all in over the whole aircraft and the whole gross operating costs he makes money - plus he has spins like car hire and bus kick backs - maybe he's not everyone's friend or favourite but he's certainly got a head for business.

rt

Alt.cap

5th Jun 2003, 18:43

As somebody else noted the Money Programme used to be a far more analytical affair than this effort. Leaning a little too far toward the "Holiday/Airline/Airport" genre methinks.

No great surprises's though-probably preaching to the converted for most of it's 30 mins. Although I did feel Micky was doing "Paddy cattle traders" a great disservice-most I've met have more wit and charm in their little finger.

Harry Wragg

5th Jun 2003, 18:56

Watched the programme, didn't say anything that wasn't obvious. Just a couple of points, Lada make cars, so do BMW, can't see any Lada's in my street as I look out the window.

I think the key to it's success is primarily the development of the internet combined with the recession in the airline industry thereby making Ryanair one of the few companies that actually recruit.

They also have an almost exponential ticket pricimg system. The last time I flew to DUB it cost £170 one way, I'm sure that someone else on the flight paid £5, so I effectively subsidise their travel.

Nothing Ryanair do is rocket science, its very simple really. I think the problem is that most other airlines (and I include Easyjet) don't think of them as the competition.

Generally I don't fly with them because they don't go where I want to, but my brother does for his leisure travel as he is not too bothered about where in a particular country he goes.

Horses for courses. I don't think they will ever overhaul the more established carriers in Europe as people WANT to fly to LHR, CDG, FRA, AMS,it's supply vs demand really. That is why these airports keep expanding.

Harry

Goforfun

5th Jun 2003, 20:14

MOL came across superbly last night........ cut the crap and lets offer cheap flights....

What ever happens- he's kicking the crap out of BA- they need to change.

Exciting times ahead :)

Wing Commander Fowler

5th Jun 2003, 20:22

Hehe..... particularly enjoyed my landing at NOC at the very end!! Very Lumpy but dramatic! :\

one four sick

5th Jun 2003, 20:55

newswatcher,

I think that what counts is that the price displayed is the price you pay and it includes whatever it has to include.

Now, when you fly for £1.99 then that is what you pay. I did.
I wasn't charged any more than £1.99, plus tax.

At the end of the day, there's no argument that they are the cheapest, certainly not the best.

BA however looked sheepish, well behind the reallity-wave and most annoyingly still too expensive, as I have researched this morning.

I think we both agree that RYR will be the winner for a long time to come, it's just t pity I don't work for them.

one four sick

Celtic Emerald

5th Jun 2003, 21:06

I thought he was brilliant, I laughed myself silly as usual, if only a certain person who used to post here & fancy themselves as a comedian could have come over as half as funny & original as him :rolleyes:

I thought he came across as a rational, down to earth, humorous, toughtalking & acting, no bullsh*t, business man, a champion of the little people, if you may.

Here was me thinking they were dig up all sorts of underhand behind the scenes dealings & practices, but there was nothing revealed that I didn't know already, & nothing I would have gasped in horror at.

I mean the advertisement about "The Fourth Secret of Fatima" only costing €400 & only running in one newpaper causing succh controversy they got numerous millions worth of free publicity from it, as someone with a marketing background I thought it was a complete stroke of genius & bears out what I've always believed & BTW practise, that marketing doesn't have to cost a fortune or anything for that matter to be effective.

& oh my!! Doesn't him come across as one sexy GI!! :D

Keep it up Michael, I'm behind ya for one :)

Emerald

newswatcher

5th Jun 2003, 21:24

Interesting comments Celtic Emerald. Trouble is, he may only be the champion of the little people until they have a complaint against the service he provides(or rather doesn't!).

Was surprised at the "Fourth Secret" story. I had not come across this before. Was it generally covered in the Irish press rather than UK?

Desk-pilot

5th Jun 2003, 22:20

I managed to resist the urge to kick the TV in whilst watching dreary O'Leary (only just).

Yes he's a very astute businessman and yes he has taught the established carriers a few tricks but I find him charmless, ruthless and arrogant. I don't think the man has a single ethical bone in his body and I find it quite unacceptable to treat those less fortunate than himself eg disabled, unemployed, those with a grievance the way he does. The man is a moral bankrupt if not a financial one!

I look forward to the day BA/BM and the regulators kick his ass to hell and back.

Only flew on Ryan once, won't do it again - why? For the same reason I don't drink £1.99 a bottle wine anymore - some of us don't always buy the cheapest and appreciate a bit of quality and old fashioned service.

Long live BA!

onehunga

5th Jun 2003, 23:06

IMHO I am not so sure that the actual price differential between the majors and the low cost is that great anymore particularly for those of us that don't live near STN, Gatwick or Luton. Not after taking into account the value of your time and the cost of getting to those airports at often "unsociable" hours when public transport may not be working.

Take me as an example. Live in West London, need to tube for 40 mins to Liverpool St, allowing enough time for inevitable delays and the fact that the "express" train is only on the half hour. Then minimum of 45 mins on "express" train to STN. Of course allowing enough time to check in and get through a possible scrum at security. Turns into nearly a half day exercise to make a 1 hour trip on the lash in Dublin!

Did I mention the replacement coach trip from STN to Liverpool St when ongoing engineering works are taking place as well?

Personally I would have to save in excess of around £50 before I would consider putting up with the hassle.

Basically give me LHR anytime. Cab, tube, bus or express train - plus a nice new Wetherspoons in T1!

Butter side-up

6th Jun 2003, 00:01

Has anyone got a copy of the above programme.

If so - can you contact me please via a Private Message. I would like to get hold of a copy - will pay for postage etc.

Thanks

BSU

Final 3 Greens

6th Jun 2003, 01:46

one four sick

Who do you think I should fly with?

That depends on your expectations and requirements.

Personally, I'd fly BA if on business and FR if on leisure, recognising that there are two quite different approaches which are appropriate for different reasons.

However, try booking to go to Rome and back tomorrow and you'll find the following........

BA LGW GBP263.10 FR 423.66

So when you compare BA and FR 6 weeks in advance thats only one comparison and the real situation is a little more complex.

BTW, I've nothing against FR and do use them regularly, but one has to take a balanced view on these things.

Globaliser

6th Jun 2003, 02:21

one four sick:
Ryanair:
London Stansted (STN)
Rome Ciampino (CIA)
London Stansted (STN) 10 Jul-16Jul

Cost: 19.99 GBP o/b - 7.99 GBP i/b total: 51.66 GBP

British Airways
LHR-FCO-LHR
9-15 Jul
Total cost: £ 118.50

Who do you think I should fly with?I don't know about you, but for that price difference I would fly BA. Same travel time to London airport for me. Online checkin beforehand, no queues at airport. Lounge access at LHR, free drinks, snacks etc. Pre-allocated seat, will be good because of online checkin. Food and drink on flight. And most importantly, backup if trip goes pear-shaped, and I really really need to be back in London. All that's worth £55 in my book.

Findo

6th Jun 2003, 02:58

Lounge access at LHR, free drinks, snacks etc.
On a £59.75 single fare ? Don't think so. Business class only.
no queues at airport
There are less queues at Heathrow than Stansted ? Don't think so. Following the queue to the holding point alone will add 20 minutes to your journey after you have negotiated the security queues.
Pre-allocated seat
What part of the extra £66 is that worth ?
Food and drink on flight
A doggy bag with a sandwich and a miniature you can buy at £3.
And most importantly, backup if trip goes pear-shaped, and I really really need to be back in London.
What back up ? BA have aircraft sitting in Rome in the off chance ? Don't think so. I've never had a BA flight backed up and have suffered about 4 cancellations with them.All that's worth £55 in my book.
Don't think so. The difference is actually £66.84 which is more than twice the RYR fare.

Still it's your money and your choice.

carbootking

6th Jun 2003, 03:02

if u want to see rynair first hand and how they treat pax u should try wheelchair pushing it was not unusual getting a call to do a job just when they have landed to find when u get to the plane which takes say 15 mins from term to the aircraft to find the plane already loaded up and moving off and the pax is sitting on the tarmac wonderint ware u r the best is in the winter all those skiers its not nice watching grown ups cry . as for people using heathrow i find a lot of people come up from heathrow and travel all over onrynair routes the germans dont seem to mind travelling to haan and driving 200 miles home . ryanair is ok till they have a problem . try ringing them to find your bag when its lost ull never get through. havnt seen the program yet have recorded it

Globaliser

6th Jun 2003, 03:37

OK, the maths got a bit screwy, sorry. £66.

No check-in queues at airport - I agree security queues are there but from observation (incl STN) it's all a bit random and probably much the same everywhere.

Lounge access etc. you get from loyalty, and of course flying the BA fare gives you a little bit added towards that for the following year. Most of the accrued "loyalty" of course comes from places that FR would never dream of flying to - SYD and points beyond. Note:- I get all this solely on self-paid discount economy leisure flying, not on some company's fat expense account paying for business class tix.

I think I'd pay at least £5 on LON-ROM for a pre-allocated seat. It means you can wait in the comfortable lounge with your free drink and snack until 15 minutes before departure + the time it takes to walk from the lounge to the gate. Or you can arrive at the airport just in time to pick up a boarding pass from the machine and get straight on board the flight at the end of the boarding process. No rushing to be at check-in 3 hours early to get a low number, or dashing onto the aircraft to avoid being in the middle seat in the last row.

And backup in the sense that they will try to do something to get you where you need to go, if you really need to get there. Re-route you, endorse you over, whatever. Major airlines do that.

Still, as you say, it's your money and your choice. How much are you prepared to put up with to save the cost of a couple of dinners out?

gone till november

6th Jun 2003, 05:18

Desk Pilot

Im with you! Molly is an arrogant insensitive and in the long term a very bad business man.

He says that he modelled FR on Southwest Airlines principle, maybe so but he certainly did not model himself on the charismatic and POPULAR founder Herb Kelleher.

It was interesting to watch Molly everytime he made a sweeping and pious statement instead of looking the camera or the interviewer in the eye he looked down at his feet and his eyes shuffled. Im sure the psychiatrists amongst you will have an intereting diagnosis for this.

Maybe his arrogance and bullying comes from a deep seated childhood problem that he takes out on an unsuspecting public.

What I found most surprising was the one bit of information he left out. The hub hub about the cost of his 800's was not due to the two Gulf wars he mentioned but September 11th.

Immediatly after 9/11 he went back to Boeing promptly cancelled his previous order and said "now lets talk about those prices again boys".

Do remember his ad in FI for used 300's not long after 9/11 ie Boeing if you dont sell me these a/c at a price that I want when you and the whole industry is up against the wall.......Well what goes around comes around Molly and Boeing is a lot bigger than you.

Boeing was not impressed and im sure the American public also would not be if they knew the insensitivity of his timing. This man is truly ruthless and simply doesn't care as long as he makes money at anyones expense.

There is no shame in making lots of money I only wish I had his cash. But there are limits and standards by which we lead our lives and we seem to have a maverick about us.

I am at that stage in my life also where I no longer drink plonk but can afford something a little better. Yes BA can and note the word "can" be more expensive but id really rather not be rushing to get a favourable seat or eat a sandwich thats been on the plane all day long with sweaty cheese and plastic paper thin ham. So what if SOMETIMES it costs more.

I have flown Ryanair many times but will no longer after the treatment and total cost of my last trip with them. Non existant and quite frankly rude service on the ground the extra £40 baggage excess charge and £35 getting from West London to LTN for the pleasure of a £30 return ticket. Cost on BM/BA much the same if not less as all they do with a bag 10lbs overweight is stick a HEAVY tag on it.

At the end of the day people will fly FR until they have a bad experience with them and then they may think twice before the next time.

And what is his fascination with BA. Thats all he mentioned all night long with a passing refference to one or two other airlines.

Molly there are other airlines and you dont even really compete in the same arena... get a proper life and money isn't everything.

Good luck MoL you can fool some of the people some of the time etc etc etc.

boredcounter

6th Jun 2003, 05:36

I seem to recall an interview with MOL, ATW issue unknown, but from about three years ago. (Sorry understand no credibility there). It sticks in my mind, Ryanair will not expand by more than 25% per year, as that is the limit they deem safe. As 'The Giant' grows, is it sticking to this principle? It is hard to tell what 25% of Ryanair is these days.

I have no axe to grind with FR, and as long as they stay safe, employ people in an industry that struggles, and 'Do what they say on the tin' I wish them good luck.

For my tuppence worth people pay for what they want. If FR cant operate to Skavsta, for what ever reason, or Hahn, or (I believe?)
Beauvais etc. anyone who feels it correct to complain about lack of support from FR, should have paid the money and flown full service, to/from ARN, FRA, or CDG/ORY. That way you get the support you now complain about not recieving.

Sometimes the low cost boys must feel like theAA, sued because someone broke down on the motorway, having declined the polite request from their agent to join at the last stop.

That said, in the current climate, any attempted add campaign, involving a competitors base, 'a tank' and staff in combat gear, screened by the BBC, brings the whole programme into question, along with the management, IMHO.

Eddie Ginley

6th Jun 2003, 06:07

gone till november

...while I entirely support your observations about Ryanair / MOL etc., etc., - I'm afraid that the last 7 or 8 years have demonstrated to my entire satisfaction that Joe Public is more than happy to keep taking a Customer Service kicking from the LoCo Airlines - and keep coming back for more.

I could tell you a zillion horror stories about customers / passengers, lousy service and LoCos which would make you cringe and think that "once bitten twice shy" must surely be the rule as far as the consumer is concerned.

Not a bit of it - they just keep coming back for even more crap, drawn apparently by the promise of cheap seats.

One other point too - MOL's recent frolics are beginning to make EZY look almost conservative and respectable - never thought I'd see the day!

Luv to all.

Groovy Eddie:)

PAXboy

6th Jun 2003, 07:54

E Ginley - well said. The Brits like to make a fast quid and spend it slow!

The cost for many of getting to/fro the main bases of STN + LTN has a clear balance point. For me it is easy :rolleyes: to get to LTN only 17 miles away. LHR is next at 36, STN at 52 and LGW even more. I will not travel further to use a low grade carrier whilst many others do and that is called modern life!

The real problem, as has been stated many times, is that the lowest fare is the cost on the day the fare is opened for sale. It will remain at that until the one or two seats are sold. When cross comparing fares, the time-to-departure must be quoted, otherwise it's pointless. MOL knows that people only remember the 9.99 bit.

I agree that his fascination on beating BA is very amusing but the Money programme fell down all along the way and into his trap. He must be delighted with a programme that missed so many open goals.

peeteechase

6th Jun 2003, 15:25

You get what you pay for in life, which is quite safe if you are talking about a TV or Settee.
I don't hate anybody enough to send them on a Ryanair flight, the paint might be shiney but I wonder what's under the surface?
Asked to give way to a taxiying Ryanair the other day, when I spotted them I thought they were saving time by using the taxiway for takeoff!
Would you really trust an airline whose CEO is by his own admission, a cattle dealer?

Pirate

6th Jun 2003, 22:32

A lot of PPruners say a lot of things about MOL, much of it subjective, which is fair enough.

However, I don't think that by any conceivable yardstick he can be called a bad businessman, as suggested above. He may not be particularly likeable but that tends to go with the territory. Nice guys usually (not always) come off second best in the cut throat world of major commerce.

Confundemus

gone till november

7th Jun 2003, 00:50

Groovy Eddie

You are of course correct! But there is a stage in everybodys life where you say "hang on i work hard for my money why shouldn't the people who take it off me work hard also".

I have worked hard to get the things I have in life and will no longer put up with crap service and common rudeness from staff who I know for a fact have been told not to bother with customer service.

Pirate

In my original post I stated that MoL is a bad business man in the long term because FR will not grow for ever and there will be a saturation point or if you like a balance between those who want LoCo and those who want full service.

When that happens more and more LoCo pax will turn away from the crap service and arrogant attitude of MoL and turn back to the likes of BA BM et al.

I know this, as I and many of my friends and family will never fly FR unless there is no alternative and it purely due to the reasons listed above.

I dont care that i can travel to DUB or PIK for £30 or even £1 + taxes if I have to spend £35-40 to get to STN or LTN or drive for up to 1.5 hrs then get there and be treated like scum then charged £4 per kg over weight only find that the service back up is actually scheduled to fly every day.......Nah...... those that do you can keep FR and find out the hard and sometimes in the long run the expensive way what FR is really like.

I work hard and expect those who serve me to at least pay my comfort some lip service. Dont get me wrong with tha last statement Im just an ordinary guy who expects someone to at least try to put the same amount of effort into earning my money as i did and this is where FR will fail in the long run.

By the way MoL definitely suffers from delusions of granduer as he has himself convinced that he is the biggest airline in the world. If he doesn't know the answer to that ...well!!!!!

:ok:

Ps. If 70% of the seats on FR are at the lowest rate then in order for FR to make those massive profits would not the other 30% be better off on the full service carriers?

MarkD

7th Jun 2003, 00:59

The interesting bit will be what happens when the new EU members open their airspace - will MoLs low fare culture resonate as much with people who fly Malev, CSA, LOT etc. as with those who were worked over by the full fare airlines in the west pre-open skies...

with all those aircraft on order he certainly seems in a position to scatter new bases all over Eastern Europe, but how long before the route network starts getting overcomplex?

eng123

7th Jun 2003, 09:20

Read this topic with interest and promised myself I would keep calm so here goes..
gone till november,
You make a reference to Boeing and how they are bigger than Ryanair and that they are 'not impressed' etc...
I'm afraid you simply do not know what you are talking about! I can tell you that Boeing love us ! with the order for 250 aeroplanes,Boeing simply cannot do enough for Ryanair and they genuinley think we are one of the [if not the ] best customer for the 737NG.So,don't make sweeping comment's you know nothing about.
You say Ryanair offer 'crap service'? What do you mean? If you refer to on-board service you are wrong.As in every airline,you will be attended to individually by the cabin crew.The major difference is that you will have to pay for your food/drink as opposed to it being 'free'?!! [£100]
Your reference to travel distance to STN is fair enough,fly from elswhere but don't forget that many millions of people live within striking distance from STN so don'y use that as a reason for not flying from there.
My last comment regarding yourself is questioning RYR's ability to be the biggest airline in the world? 250 aircraft coming?!!....

Peetechase,
Please explain your comment 'the paint might be shiny but what's underneath'? Is this a reference to the serviceability of the aircraft? Are you questioning the quality of Ryanair Engineering? If so on what basis? I suspect there is no basis at all,just a pathetic attempt at Ryanair bashing from the pilot of another airline.For the record,for those not in the know, Ryanair has engineer's with the same licences, operating to the same standard's,to a similar MEL [the same MMEL] as,for the sake of argument,does British Airways. So don't go casting aspertions on the safety of Ryanair aircraft.The fact remains we have A perfect safety record.

Ryanair are succesfull because they have opened up air travel to the masses.Gone are the days when it was an exclusive event.Basically it's a bus service.An expensive,well maintained and well driven bus but a bus service all the same.You get what you pay for.If you think it's value for money to pay £3-400 extra to have a 'free' wine or beer and fly to the main airport then fine,pay it,but there are plenty of other's who don't need to be in the city centre within 30 mins of walking out the terminal.
You also have to recognise that with most of the RYR airport's you have left the building within 15 mins of landing.Could you do that at Frankfurt Main? Just a question!

MarkD

7th Jun 2003, 21:18

worth mentioning too that FR do fly from LTN and LGW, to a few destinations. Considering DUB is one of the largest routes ex London, that means quite a bit of traffic for those airports.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=184&si=988852&issue_id=9316

Ryanair looks at Polish airport

LOW cost airline Ryanair has confirmed that its representatives have visited the Polish city of Radom, 100km south of Warsaw, as part of its assessment of potential locations in the accession states.

A spokesman for the airline said: "We are looking at about 40 airports in the former eastern Europe as potential targets and foresee plenty of growth in that region in the future.

"However, while this geographical area is on our radar, we don't see a deal being made with any particular airport in the next week or month."

Radom's local airport is Sadkowa, and it is expected that if Ryanair chose this location, it would need to invest millions of dollars to upgrade navigation and airstrip lighting systems and the runway itself.

Ryanair has said in the past that the accession countries are target markets, but has not pinned down specific airports or towns that would be suitable. The 10 accession countries due to join the EU next May are Poland, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Slovakia and Slovenia.

Poland is the biggest market of all, with over 40 million people.

This weekend, Poles will vote on EU membership. A 50pc turnout is required for a valid vote.

gone till november

8th Jun 2003, 02:53

Oh dear eng 123

Perhaps you should have stayed of this thread as you said and kept calm.

I have had crap service in the air and on the ground from FR and despite your protestations about what I do and dont know. I know enough about the way I have been treated by FR and what Boeing thought about FR bullying them into the deal post 9/11. Yeah they might think your the bee's knees but it was very insensitive to both Boeing and the American people to try and make money off the back of the worst terrorist attack in history. Oh and by the way a salesman will say anything to you to get your cash.

I assume that you know of Flight International and its yearly world airline census. Well despite their financial problems UA still has around 600 a/c, AA over 750 a/c and DL around 550 a/c even BA has 340 odd (with its wholly owned BACX).

Now if MoL can make FR the worlds biggest with 250 a/c then thats some fancy accounting and perhaps MoL deserves his position or is it big talk to attract more share holders and push up his share price to make even more money?

Eng 123 I dont know you and therfore have nothing against you but you need to keep calm and realise that everyone is entitled to an opinion just the same as you are. I know what I have experienced with FR and it's not good enough for me to want to spend another penny with them.

I would rather spend my money where i think i get the best "Overall" value. How many old cheap cars do you see on the road as opposed to old expensive one's. Exactly it may be cheap but there is no sense of occassion or quality with a cheap one.

I have had my fill of cheap cars and now drive something thats going to last and give me good service and i feel the same about LoCo but i have to say that i have flown EZY and they blow you out of the water for on board service and come to think of it on the ground as well.

I wish you good luck with FR but you wont see my money again and at the end of the day money talks and bullshyte walks.

Tom the Tenor

8th Jun 2003, 17:23

Boeing's sensitivities are a non starter when it comes to aircraft purchases in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

Neo

8th Jun 2003, 19:08

eng123

Your commments smack of a complacency not welcome in this industry. Do you think BA's licences, standards and MMEL have protected BA from fatal accidents? Will they protect RyanAir?

It will be much more difficult for RyanAir (or any other airline) to maintain a perfect safety record when they have 250 aircraft rather than 25 or 70.

Besides, other U.K. and Ireland airlines have better safety records in that they have been operating longer with no fatal accidents. It's just that most have the humility to accept that a "perfect" safety record is only one cock-up away from being imperfect and have more sense than to brag about it.

Yes, RyanAir are doing well, but so far the full service schedule airlines are only just responding to the competition from the low-cost ones. It is far too early to tell whether RyanAir will expand to 250 aircraft or whether they will succumb to the increased competition from the full-service airlines. Remember, the full-service and particularly the long-haul airlines have premium services which they can use to subsidise their short-haul stuuf, but the low-cost airlines have no such fall-back.

One thing is for certain, RyanAir won't survive if they swagger around thinking the're Cock o'the Walk or God's Gift to Aviation. Reality has a nasty way of intervening in such hubris.

MarkD

8th Jun 2003, 19:51

Neo

stop being such a plonker. I don't work for MoL or hold any FR shares or interest but I have flown with them as well as the mainlines and felt equally safe. FR's safety record is MORE impressive than airlines of equivalent fleet size because of their high utilisation rates AND the age of the 732 fleet.

you have failed to find anything against FR so now you say "oh well there PROBABLY will be problems". Well, no sh!t. But buying a single fleet of brand new 738s, ensuring uniformity of training, parts inventory etc. goes a long way to weeding out a lot of the vectors for system failure.

eng123 is a bloke trying to earn a living who doesn't reckon on the company he works for being slagged off. Tell us who you work for so we can check out your record!

Neo

8th Jun 2003, 22:06

MarkD -

I think you completely missed my point. I did not "slag off" RyanAir at all; as it is I remain neutral about them. As I stated, it remains to be seen whether they survive in the long term, but for the short term they seem to be doing fine. I have no intention of finding anything "against" them, and I certainly did not say "oh well there PROBABLY will be problems" - I suggest you check your reply before posting.

As for their service, I prefer an allocated seat and some of the other things that a full service airline would provide. However, as I generally fly at the behest of my employer, I have to accept their choice of carrier. Given the preference I would not opt to fly on the low cast carriers.

Mind you my employer has found that the low-cost airlines pricing model and their lack of ticketing flexibility has lead to some unpleasant suprises when trying to re-arrange flights, and this in turn has lead them back to BA for the majority of UK short haul flights. Like me, my employer has a choice, and this choice has improved as a result of the full service scheduled carriers responding to the low-cost carriers pricing.

I accept that eng123 may well be enthusiastic about his employer and is frustrated about the "slagging off" they receive in this forum. The point I was making was that for anyone to claim that their airline employer has a "perfect" safety record, as eng123 was in his last post, smacks of complacency. I stand by this argument.

I certainly don't intend to start a "my airline is safer than yours" flame war on this thread by revealing my employer, suffice to say the safety record of the airline for which I work would almost certainly stand scrutiny against that of any other. However, I'm not such a fool as to leave a hostage to fortune by saying that their safety record is perfect.

eng123

9th Jun 2003, 05:44

Maybe I did sound a bit confrontational in my previous post.I don't mean to be but I find comments such as 'I don't dislike anyone enough to send them on a RYR flight,the paint might be shiny but I wonder what's underneath' extremely irritating and I take it almost as a personal insult!
The point I was [am] trying to make is that we operate to exactly the same standards and regulations as any other airline operating in this country,a point I think some overlook.There are continual slurs and although no-one has openly come out and said it,hints that Ryanair somehow cut corner's in the maintenance.This couldn't be further from the truth.I can honestly say that in my opinion we have one of the best maintained fleets of any airline I have had dealings with.
It goes without saying that I realise that having the same qualified personnell,MEL etc is no guarantee to keeping a perfect safety record.That can only be achieved with hard work and avoiding the one thing I was accused of having...complacency.
I agree that of course there is a market for full service air travel,if that's what the individual wants then pay for it.A lot of the anti-Ryan comments seem to come from people complaining that having travelled Ryanair,they haven't received the same treatment they would expect on the national carriers.My question to them would be Why did you book Ryanair? I suspect their answer would be along the lines of 'it was the cheapest.You can't have it all ways.
I personally would rather save a few quid than be pampered and given food/drink I don't particularly need.Bear in mind the longest sector we fly is in the region of 2 and a bit hours and speaking for myself,can do without anything to eat or drink for this short time.
The world of air travel has changed forever and I think it's long overdue.Just a question but why do people feel the need to be pampered on a flight when nobody would expect to receive such treatment if travelling on a train or a bus?Just because in years gone by it has been this way?Remember,at the start of commercial air travel,the experience was mainly for the wealthy.The introduction of package tour holiday companies in the 70's began to change that and companies like Ryanair are taking it a step further and I think we should all be pleased about that.
I hate to make a post without being at least a bit controvertial,so here is my controvertial bit.On the programme there was the disabled fella who complained about the cost of the wheelchair.As was stated in the programme that cost will be absorbed by the company in the case of a genuine need.I must admit that his case did seem genuine but it was his quote of 'I don't understand why other airlines absorb the cost while RYR will not' that stuck in my mind.I honestly have every sympathy for anyone that is disabled but the simple answer is that low cost means low cost.The only way to be low cost is trimming all possible overheads.There has to be a cut-off somewhere and as was stated,if the passenger walks into the terminal then surely it shouldn't be down to the airline to pay for a wheelchair to the gate.Otherwise we could all be getting wheelchairs at the airline's expense.It sure was a long walk from my Delta aircraft I recently arrived from the states in,to the terminal exit at Gatwick.I would just ask the guy why he booked FR in the first place.I bet his answer was cost again,but the only way of keeping those costs that low is by trimming overheads..like wheelchair's for those that walk into the terminal.Catch 22.

dada

9th Jun 2003, 07:19

You'll be flying with ryanair will ya?

kenoco

9th Jun 2003, 20:11

The truth is that if you apparently give something for practically nothing,9 times out of 10 they will take it,regardless of service,safety etc.Ryanair are ok to use if you want to fly to the middle of nowhere and you don't need anything onboard ohh and you don't carry any luggage at all wit you.Because if anything goes wrong with your service,you are basically on your own,Ryanair don't and won't give a damn.I myself prefer to use a national carrier for peace of mind.Cabin employment at Ryanair is now basically that they accept everybody with a pulse that applies,regardless of whether you speak English or not.They are very successful and thats great but have totally no standards whatsoever.People will always take the risk,but not moi.M xx.

gone till november

10th Jun 2003, 03:43

eng 123

Its a bit like chinese whispers this but as i remember (and i could be wrong) he walked form a car to the desk and then asked for a chair to the gate which we all know at STN can be a long way even with the shuttle trains.

I have flown FR many times and being a certain level of intelligence i am fully aware that you get for what you pay for.

But it doesn't cost FR a thing (except passengers that wont fly with them again) for mostly ground and to a certain extent cabin crew to treat their dinner or holiday or car or what ever provider ie the fare paying passenger with a little bit of respect and a modicum of customer service.

You buy tat you expect tat but you also expect some sort of pleasure from it even just a little bit and this is in all my experiences with FR where they fail spectacularly.

Im not concerned with your ability as an engineer to get an FR a/c in the as i dont believe that even Molly would be that stupid to skimp on critical maintenance. But the times i've been in the jump seat some cockpits have been a sea of post it notes and INOP stickers. But I also know that a pilot would not fly an a/c even with ops on his case if he thought it was unsafe.

eng123..... the tide is turning as a few years ago it was Ryanair its the bees knees, their great etc etc. But people are beggining to realise what LoCo actually means and in the words of that Galaxy chocolate ad "why have cotton when you can have silk". Sure silk is more expensive but it feels better (according to the wife!!)

Obviously im not going to convince you or the other supporters of FR as you have not had my experiences with them. But if you did ask yourself this.

After paying sod all for the fare then finding that they've changed the rules on baggage without actually saying it loudly enough for anyone to hear, getting charged more than the cost of the flight (including taxes) for your excess baggage, then a snotty check in agent looking down at you, indifferent service in the air with the emphasis on sell the punters more so we make more commission and a dopey PSA at the far end who basically listened to my complaint and turned her back and ignored me. Plus many other gripes too numerous to mention.

Would you want to fly with that airline in a hurry again? Would you? Is all the hassel, stress and raised BP really worth it? Not in my book.

Ryanairpilot

10th Jun 2003, 05:34

gone till november

times and places please when you were given the courtesy of a jump seat and

some cockpits have been a sea of post it notes and INOP stickers

must be different aeroplanes to those that i fly. i utterly resent your alarmist cr@p and demand that you list the times, dates, flight numbers, aircraft registrations and list of defects.

otherwise crawl back beneath the stone from whence you came.

just because you don't like the service you receive as a passenger on fr doesn't give you authority to question the engineering or ops standards of the airline; both of which are as high or even higher that those of other airlines for whom i have flown.

apology please.

eng123

10th Jun 2003, 17:32

Thanks for the positive engineering comments Ryanairpilot.This fella obviously must be on a wind up as he clearly has never travelled on a jumpseat on our aircraft as we know that a flight deck 'full of post it notes and inop sticker's' has never,ever existed.I have been with RYR for about 7 years now and that has never been the case,and it never will.Our set-up is too good to allow that to happen.After this post I'm not even going to bother responding to his b/s.

Oh gonetillnovember,how anyone could ever think of turning their back on you and switching off I could never imagine.;)

PPRuNe Radar

10th Jun 2003, 19:11

Flown FR over a dozen times and never had any major dramas yet.

Been stung for the excess baggage thing once, but it was in the small print and I was aware that it might be charged. (Wasn't charged on the outbound leg but was on the return so it felt nice to get £40 over on O'Leary after his comments about ATC.)

And the only other thing was a cabin crew guy trying to diddle us over the cost of the drinks that a group of thirsty ATC people had ordered on the way to Venice. He got pretty short shrift as the two things ATC are experts on are money and drink ;) We'll put it down to a genuine mistake :ok:

I'm quite happy to fly them when on leisure travel and I want to save a few £££ to spend at the other end. Their safety is not in question and the customer service is generally adequate for my expectations of a LoCO carrier.

Wee Weasley Welshman

10th Jun 2003, 19:34

I have plenty of respect for Ryanairs operational management. Their training, maintenance and basic Ops management seem exemplary.

Whether you like their brand or their product is either here nor there.

Their operation holds good comparison with any other major airline on the fundamentals of punctuality, reliability and safety.

I have a sneaking suspicion that if it was run by Mike Olery, listed on the FTSE, and had G registered aircraft - we would all be bigging it up and trumpeting our success to Johnny Foreigner.

As it is, there is an undeniable dissproportionate level of Ryan-bashing threads on PPRuNe, and there always has been.

WWW

Curious Pax

10th Jun 2003, 20:49

That's a good way to start a rumour WWW - Birmingham-Staverton must be the next Ryanair UK base!!!

Not RYR bashing by the way: :ok: IT WAS A JOKE!!!! :ok:

gone till november

11th Jun 2003, 04:35

Ryanairpilot

Oh dear another hot head FR person.

Im not asking you to believe me. I know what i have seen and it was on a couple of your 732 a few years ago. And if you can remember what you were doing and were you were 8 years ago (without reaching for your log book) then good for you.

I never questioned FR engineering ability try reading the last post properly.

Look i've even pasted it for you to read again.

"Im not concerned with your ability as an engineer to get an FR a/c in the as i dont believe that even Molly would be that stupid to skimp on critical maintenance. But the times i've been in the jump seat some cockpits have been a sea of post it notes and INOP stickers. But I also know that a pilot would not fly an a/c even with ops on his case if he thought it was unsafe

In fact im fully aware that the last thing ANY LoCo carrier needs is a major incident as the first thing they will check is the engineering and the TV and press will have a field day if anything was suspect.

So you can apologise anytime you like also.

One thing is for sure through all of this post is that FR is cr@p on the ground and on some occasions in the air for customer service.

I have not slagged your pilots or engineers or even any of the back room boys. But front of shop you are rubbish and no amount of you losing your rag because of someones opinion is going to change that in my eyes.

eng 123

Sorry you feel that way. If you also read my last post also you will see that i never slagged off your or any FR engineers ability as i have been at the mercy of you guys many a time. But no amount of your or any other FR person slagging me off is going to change what i saw. Maybe the phrase "a sea of" was a bit dramatic, I give you that.

Ryanairpilot

Do you act like this when somebody says something you don't like on the flight deck as well? This site is about open dialogue and a forum to express your concerns and opinions and im NOT sorry for excercising that right.

At the end of the day FR will continue to make lots of money for the forseable future but not from me and like you eng123 im bored of this as well, as im wasting valuable drinking time preaching to the converted and to those who see it differently.

WWW

With regard to your last line...why do you think that is? Just as some FR bashing is unjust some of it is totally justified.