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SPEEDBIRD5FP
18th Mar 2002, 01:28
COULD SOMEONE CONFIRM FOR ME THE FOLLOWING:. .1) IF YOU HAVE AN ENGINE FAILURE WITH A SWEPT WING A/C LIKE A 737, YOU INITIALLY HOLD OFF THE YAW WITH AILERON, THEN FEED IN RUDDER UNTIL THE CONTROL IS CENTERED.. .2) IF LOW ON AN ILS, DO YOU RAISE THE NOSE 1/2 TO 1 DEGREE OR INCREASE POWER MAKING USE OF THE LOW THRUST LINE TO PITCH THE NOSE UP AND SUPPLY THE EXTA THRUST REQURIED.. .THANKS FOR YOUR HELP

Hamster Owner
18th Mar 2002, 02:01
SPEEDBIRD5FP - . .. ."1) IF YOU HAVE AN ENGINE FAILURE WITH A SWEPT WING A/C LIKE A 737, YOU INITIALLY HOLD OFF THE YAW WITH AILERON, THEN FEED IN RUDDER UNTIL THE CONTROL IS CENTERED.". .. .Quite the opposite. You need rudder to keep the nose straight, and aileron for roll control. That's how the UAL 747 crew almost went on a landscaping job a few years ago when they lost an engine on takeoff out of SFO. They kept their feet on the floor and tried to do it all with aileron.. .. ."2) IF LOW ON AN ILS, DO YOU RAISE THE NOSE 1/2 TO 1 DEGREE OR INCREASE POWER MAKING USE OF THE LOW THRUST LINE TO PITCH THE NOSE UP AND SUPPLY THE EXTA THRUST REQURIED.". .. .I control vertical speed (glideslope) with pitch, and airspeed with power. I subscribe to the TLAR method (that looks about right). My eyesight isn't good enough to read 1/2 degree on the ADI anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> Hope this helps.

Skye Pilot
18th Mar 2002, 05:40
SPEEDBIRD5FP . .1.In my B737 training manual (AS PUBLISHED BY BOEING) it clearly states that if in IMC the first indication of an engine failure (other than engine instruments) will be roll. Maintain wings level with aileron, and then as you stated level the control column with rudder. VMC of course the yaw will be noticed 'out the window' and can be countered immediatly with rudder.. .. .2. If low on a glideslope raise the nose to regain profile. Think of the thrust levers in terms of speed only.. .. .hope this helps! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />

john_tullamarine
18th Mar 2002, 07:53
To put some perspective on the earlier posts regarding engine failure inputs .... .. .(a) in a nice world, one would balance the undesired yawing moment due to the failing engine rundown with just the correct rudder input .. this works reasonably well on the ground for the traditional V1 cut where yaw-roll coupling doesn't present a problem but is difficult in flight, especially at low speed.. .. .(b) in flight, regardless of whether the conditions are IMC or VMC, if rudder input is emphasised the aircraft tends to go into rolling oscillations and it becomes a case of patting your head and rubbing your tummy to get it sorted out. Certainly, with a bit of practice, it is not an overly difficult task to master for routine speeds. . .. .If roll input is made first, then the appropriate rudder input follows directly .. the downgoing control horn indicates the side to push rudder. There ought not to be other than a very small time delay in getting the problem under control using this technique. . .. .This latter technique is much easier for most pilots and, in my observation, many pilots who distance themselves from it .. in fact tend to use it without realising it. I suggest that Mr Boeing merely is suggesting that one might be better placed to use the more repeatable and reliable procedure in a critical situation, regardless of purist objections.. .. .(c) in the case of a very low speed schedule takeoff where Vmca becomes QUITE relevant, it is MOST important that roll be well controlled if the failure occurs during the rotation flare. If this is not done, then the resulting undesired roll angle will result in a significant increase in the "real" Vmca and it is very easy for the pilot to find himself/herself in the situation of a Vmca departure. . .. .For this case the majority of pilots (and this has included a wide range of overall experience levels) with whose training I have been involved have considerable difficulty unless roll control is emphasised as a priority. . .. .This does not mean that there should be any delay in introducing the appropriate rudder input .. merely that the initial emphasis must be on roll control to avoid a Vmca problem .. and this can bite very quickly. . .. .After a bit of practice, the situation is controlled very quickly and reliably. More interestingly, once this most critical set of engine failure circumstances is trained for, the routine higher speed failure is, by comparison, child's play ... . . . <small>[ 18 March 2002, 03:04: Message edited by: john_tullamarine ]</small>

fantom
18th Mar 2002, 13:00
g'day JT. all good stuff,as I would expect from you but.... .I shall assume the question was posed by an inexperienced pilot therefore I offer the following:. .the engine failure hands and feet actions should be performed smoothly and together in co-ordinated fashion.it probably does not help to try and work out which way the hands and feet are going to go before the event.. .the Royal Air Force taught me,many years ago,that jet aeroplanes like the speed to be controlled with PITCH and the rate of descent with thrust.I have been doing/teaching that all my flying life and it has never let me down.just because the jet will work (sort of) the other way round does not make a case for adopting that very dodgy technique. in very poorly flown approaches, the use of pitch instead of thrust to rectify a glideslope error will result in disaster. ditto for the speed case.. .but you knew that already. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />

static
18th Mar 2002, 13:14
Fantom,. .I have to disagree with you concerning the maintaining of the correct glideslope. Rate of descent is pitch and speed is thrust. The RAF probably taught aerodynamic breaking after landing as well. It`s just different on 737`s.. .. .Regards,. .Static, 5000 hrs 737

fantom
18th Mar 2002, 13:26
yes,I knew that I should have kept quiet.... .you are almost right:they taught braking though,not breaking! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />

Loc-out
19th Mar 2002, 03:51
Very simple actually, old boy.. .. .Keep the wings level, which is natural. Look at the yoke. Left horn down, then apply left rudder. Right horn down, then right rudder. Apply an application, to level the yoke and wait, don't "juggle" the rudder, let things settle then make small adjustments. It's as simple as that. You don't even need a ball, using this method. Remember yoke level, no spoiler deflection ie less drag.. .. .If you are low on the G/S, decrease the Rof D, ie increace pitch. The IVSI does not tell you what is happening, at present but informs you of what will happen if corrections are not made.

HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD
19th Mar 2002, 04:19
Regarding the speed/power/pitch/VS thing I personally can't separate them and don't see why I should.Pitch or power to regain the slope? Well, both actually.If I pitch up I'll need power on,if I pitch down I'll need to reduce power to hold this speed.I'm no genius but even I can handle this much.. .Once you get close to the ground I suppose I just point the nose at the touchdown point and use the throtles to control speed.In broad terms the two are always linked though.