Requested cruising level

[Loki]

Because of some electronic jiggery pokery at our gleaming new centre at Swanwick, we are, if we are the first NERC sector, supposed to ascertain the requested cruising level of a flight on first contact (this sometimes differs from the filed level). If we don`t do this, the succeeding sectors may be wrongly targetted by the electronics.

Can someone explain why the answer is very often "Standby". I would have thought this would have been known some time before the aircraft got airborne, but apparently it is still an unknown factor when the aircraft is passing FL200 for some crews.

[BOAC]

LOKI - the FPL cruise level may not be the best one for the flight. Quite a lot of changes to 'Plan' take place between receiving the final load sheet and being asked for a requested cruise level. During this time, a lot of other things happen too! (Drone drone PA's, ATC inter-reaction, checks, cabin issues, company issues etc etc)

To complicate the issue, the person on the R/T is NORMALLY not the person 'running' the flight, so this CRM thing dictates that the R/T person checks first with the other about the requested level. It is rare for the 'I/C' to have already notified the R/T person.

I, being old and grey, mostly have the level sorted in my mind as I taxi, but this can still be changed by the need to go faster (which limits CRZ altitude) or by unforecast winds, tech issues, weather or turbulence, which can often be seen only a bit later in the climb, and I ALWAYS pass the decision to the other person (even if only to get them thinking). Hence, for me, 'Standby'

Hope this is of some help. Then, of course, we could be just dozey!

[Loki]

Yes I know that there are lots of reasons why the planned level and the requested level are different, but would have thought both crew people in the pointy end would know what the requested level was....but your answer goes some way....thanks, I might not be so sarcastic (off the R/T, of course) in future.

However, some pilots have become accustomed to being asked and volunteer the information on first contact.

I suppose the worst answer is "we can take whatever suits you"; I once replied "Roger, climb Flight Level six six zero"

[overstress]

Sorry Loki but if you are asking pilots the reason why, and then partially ignore the first valid answer you get, you will not get many more sensible ones!

Occasionally, we will 'know' the answer to your question @ FL200. Most times we will not. It is a highly dynamic environment.

To repeat BOAC's point - the question you ask is an important one but the pilot is not always expecting it. Additionally, the person you are talking to on the R/T will usually have to consult his/her colleague. Hence the 'standby' - we can hardly keep an open mike whilst we debate it, can we??!!

On the odd occasion I 'volunteer' a requested level, I usually get an immediate brush-off, such as

'For that contact Brest/Maastricht etc on 123.XX with your request'

So now I don't bother.

[FlightDetent]

Final CRZ level may make a nice difference, so I'd say they are just trying to make the best out of the offer.
The road is long from planning (FPL submitted) to push-back. It's short from push-back to FL200, but tricky none the less.

Although the machine would tell you the optimum FL based on the forecast winds aloft you'd entered while on ground, you have acual wind data when airborne. Also, passing over the storm's incuses (geez, Cu incus, I´d call it "anvil", but am not sure if this really works in English, sorry) may be a treat for pax comfort. One may even attempt to run step-climb calculation on the computer.

The CRM surely plays the biggest part too. Just give it for a tought for a while: skipper is the pilot flying and F/O is on the phone and you come with the question, ideas start to fly from one side to another. Or vice versa - even better.

Only well coordinated crew in favourable conditions (wx AND ops) will pass the message right away, yet there are many. My guess is 8 out of 10. We bastards learn to take advantage fast :ok: . If you had asked about the "planned" FL, they'd all know instantly. There's no fun in flying planned flight levels.:cool:

Also I feel it is imortant not to leave controllers waiting, silence for many reasons is not an answer. My second guess would be, that vast majority of those taking their time come back within 20 seconds. How close do I get?

[PPRuNe Radar]

I suspect the crux is that we need to know the Flight Planned Level to allow the 'electrickery' to do it's business.

So perhaps that's how we should phrase the question to pilots ?

If the pilot wants something different then other factors may come in to play such as Level Capping to get around flow restricions or putting it in to a different sector (more tendency for UK sector boundaries to be divided by level now). We may or may not be able to accomodate the change, but at least knowing the initial flight planned level will let us get up and running.

[eyeinthesky]

The nub of the problem is the 'electronic trickery'. This has come to rule all our lives at Swanwick now, as we have to get the RFL into the box before the computer decides to make up its own mind. If it does this it will do one of three things:

1) It will send an estimate to a neighbouring ATCC which is the cruising level in the FPL. This can be very different from either what you are at or what you want.

2) It will send an estimate to a neighbouring sector which is the level at which you entered my sector. Again, this may be very different to what you are now at or want.

3) It will send an estimate to the next sector which complies with internal coordination (a Standing Agreement).

The most important one is the first. On one of the sectors I do, we have no more that 2 minutes from when aircraft first call us until the computer sends the estimate to Maastricht. Often we will input a level which complies with your flight plan level or what fits with the other traffic. But if both of you running together have filed FL370 and we have had to put one of you at FL350, only for us to find AFTER the estimate has gone that the OTHER one only actually WANTS FL350 then it's a pain all round.

In the second instance, we have to ring up the next sector and get them to change their levels and they might have to change their onward coordination, so the sooner we can get an answer from you the better.

Overstress: The situation you describe is probably covered above: You volunteer the level, but by the time you do so the estaimate has already gone to Brest and you are so close to the transfer of control point that it is easier to get you to tell them than for us to make a phone call only to transfer you 30 seconds later. (Either that or it's the South Bank being bone idle as usual!!):E