RAAF Pilot Pay.. .what the??

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Anyone noticed how RAAF junior pilots are almost the lowest paid of all officers given that Air Traffic, Logistics, Engineers etc all receive bonuses because of recruiting problems.

Just curious of the thoughts out there on the topic??

:mad:

$15,000 extra for a tower rating at an airfield with one runway and one taxiway??? :yuk:

[Fox3snapshot]

"$15,000 extra for a tower rating at an airfield with one runway and one taxiway???

A pilot only has to land on one runway and taxi on one taxiway at a time so whats your problem....

Reroll to ATC and get your $15,000...and of course your free copy of "Pushing Tin"!

:8

[tradewind]

I'm sure the bonus has been awarded in the same vein as the RAF has awarded some aircrew. I assume that if there is a retention or recruitment problem, it doesn't matter what branch or trade is involved.

It might also make some realise that the ground trades are just as valuable as the aircrew.

[Surditas]

I once heard that the difference between a pilot and an AirTrafficO is that a "pilot cannot fly ten aircraft at once".

[Booger]

Surditas - You've just highlighted the similarities between Air Trafficers & Pilots...
Pilots "cannot fly ten aircraft at once" just as Air Trafficers cannot control ten aircraft at once!!! :ok:

[FishHead]

No need to pay them heaps when they have a ROSO that reaches into the next decade...

Save the money on the boggies and put it into obscene salaries for those in the post-ROSO stage of their career I say!
;)

[Pass-A-Frozo]

How about get rid of the Air Trafficers and give us a Mandatory Broadcast Zone. It would be safer. :eek:

Pilots can't fly ten aircraft at once? Well the failed pilots who are now ATC's couldn't fly one ...:O

[Ali Barber]

Didn't the RAAF give their pilots (only?) a big bonus about 12 years ago when they were all leaving in droves? I recall it had some bizarre rules attached, like you had to spend it all in the one year to avoid paying tax on it.

[ausdoc]

I didn't think RAAF pilots did MBZ!;)

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Yeah... some of us do.. if your not at Willytown between 0934 to 0936 (and the ATC officer isn't out smoking during that time) it's an MBZ :} The ATC officers are out spending there bonus.

Pilot retention is solved with ROSO. Every other cat is resolved with $$$. They got rid of the retention bonus as far as I know.
:{

[Gnadenburg]

Sign of the times?

The traditional poachers of RAAF pilots in disarray.

So great the surplus many airlines now require type ratings and have little regard for traditional military multi-engine experience-Hercs, Orions etc.

737 a good rating and the new tanker 767/330 would be handy too.

ATC Contracts in the Middle East now exceed those of First Officers. Again signs of the times.

[Fox3snapshot]

Did you get dumped by an ATC babe recently or are you just one of those GD types that hasn't realized the importance of the ATC fraternity?

If you really want to grizzle, pull the pin on taxi driving and come and join me here in the Middle East on $85,000 US (tax free of course!) with house supplied and lotsa beaches.....hey and I don't even control one runway!!

If you aren't happy with the service conditions you should have worked harder at school and got a job as an Air Traffic Controller.



:E

[ozbiggles]

F3 We all know how important ATC is, its just that they are never there anymore. Unless you are grey and have an 18 in your name, no ATC for you!
And who hasn't been dumped by an ATC babe!!
Give them a ROSO I say!!!

[Chronic Snoozer]

Isn't this just market forces?

Just because ATCs can't control their bowel movements doesn't mean they're not in demand. Therefore the RAAF or whoever has to pay. Pilots on the other hand are currently on the wrong part of the peak/trough cycle that the RAAF/airline industry goes through every 5 (insert number of choice) years or so. They're never 'poached', just attracted by a better lifestyle. If the RAAF sorted out all the lifestyle issues, it wouldn't have to match airline salaries.

In any event would a $15K bonus make you want to watch pilots having fun all day?

CS.

[L J R]

I took the bonus and still left!

Unfortunately had to pay ALL the bonus PLUS TAX back.

Luckily my accountant managed to get some overpaid tax back.


what a sham


Pity the man managers have their head in the sand.

They could have easily kept some 'experienced' individuals if they wanted to.



Retention in RAAF was (IS) a joke!!


.

[ATCbabe]

ATCs can't control their bowel movements


Promise I am house trained but I dont bring slippers to the front door, it's not in the job discription!!:p

And who hasn't been dumped by an ATC babe!!


As I'm the only official one on pprune can I just say it wasn't me....Innocent until proven guilty..:E


I'll slope off to my civvie forums now, sorry for the intrusion.

[ruprecht]

Speaking of RAAF pilot retention....

Does anyone know how the Pilot Sustainability Project is going at the moment? Did that 2 hour survey we did last year actually make any difference? You know the one:

Would you stay if
a) flying pay was in superannuation and
b) you were paid an extra $180,000 every three years and
c) you could keep flying no matter what and
d) any other pipe dream you can think of.....

In answer to that ATC bonus gripe, who cares. I'll be quite happy with my 30K flying pay every year. Besides, pilots aren't the highest paid aircrew anyway. Flight Test Engineers get the engineer bonus as well as flying pay.

What really bugs me is that there are pilots out there with stuff all captain time and no postgraduate quals who still rake in max flying pay while better guys who are TP's, QFI's, FCI's or Check Captains (happy Fishhead?) get nothing for their extra responsibility or effort. Bring on captain/QFI/TP/FCI allowance....

ruprecht.

[Booger]

From a very reliable source (ie someone with lots of stripes on those epaulette thingies) the PSP basically wheezed and died along with post-RAAF aviation employment opportunities!

It seems that like most bureaucratic endeavours, this one was all show and no substance - as the external employment options disappeared so did management's interest in retaining aircrew. Shortsightedness is an artform to these people: who wants to wager that in 3-4 years the RAAF will be out of the 'trough' and back at the 'peak' of personnel loss, to once again watch a stampede of B-cats/FCIs/TPs et al exit stage right.

I shudder to think what a cross-section of a RAAF operational squadron will reveal in terms of experience levels post 2007.:hmm:

I guess we can consign the PSP to the "Nunn review" box and set our sights a bit lower: Does anyone have any info on the "class action" being taken to roll in flying pay to our wage for super purposes? Who is coordinating it (ArFFA?) and where do I send my contributions?!?:ok:

[Swingwing]

Booger,

hope you're finding the office comfortable! Who wants to go to Perth anyway - fantastic weather, 8-til-4 office hours, three sorties a day with no prep...actually....now that I think of it...LOSER!

I mention the flying pay into super issue to the boss as often as I think I can get away with it. Unfortunately (but understandably), in his mind, it gets lumped in with all the redresses from boxpackers who think that their $200 a day tax free allowances for fighting the warehouse war in Qatar should also be rolled into their super!
I'm making the point to him that we need to separate "skill based" allowances from "environmental" allowances to get some clarity on the issue. Unfortunately, then you have to deal with field allowance, seagoing allowance, parachuting allowance etc. Unfortunately, you end up with phone-book sized numbers down the track, all of which will have to be ponied up by the taxpayer at some point.

anyway, at least it's still being considered, although it's not always as simple as we might hope (my god, aren't I starting to sound like a company man!)

enjoy the queensland wx - -1 and foggy here this morning.

SW

[scran]

You don't get the full $15K for a Tower Rating anyway...........


It's an incremental thing - to get the full $15K you need to be Approach Rated/Supervisor/Training Officer, have been to at least two bases, one of which has to be "busy" like Williamtown or Darwin.




I get it, but then again I'm as old as the hills...........:uhoh:



Keep your mouth shut Fox3!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ok: :ok: :ok:

[Double Asymmetric]

Actually, Swingwing, your info is somewhat amiss....two flights a day with no prep. Three at a stretch. Crumbs, we don't fly CT-4's (involuntary shudder) over here!!!!

Pinning your hopes on PSP or anything else is something approaching high farce. Doesn't matter...as in the rest of life, the bigger the boom, the bigger the bust. Given the current bloating of pilot numbers, if they don't do something I shudder to think about experience levels in a few short years when the present clouds (SARS, post-Ansett, W.O.T etc) blow over as they invariably do.

[FishHead]

no link online, sorry.... but here are extracts from an article that appeared on the Canberra Times on 10 Jun...


The Government has finally taken action over a long-standing problem with Defence Force superannuation, a Senate committee has heard.
But it was only going part of the way - despite admitting it was still losing top quality special forces soldiers and pilots to the private sector.
The move came amid reports that a class action by up to 500 military personnel, including some widows, may soon be underway.
The Government was moving to pay superannuation on some parts of the special allowances which top up base military salaries.
But it had not yet decided how much it would be worth.
:ok:

The govenment was planning to ask the Defence Force Remuneration Tribunal to approve superannuation for the "qualification and skill" components of the allowances.
But other elements such as "attraction", "retention" and "disability" would remain unsupperannuated
:hmm:

The head of the Defence Personnel Executive, RADML Brian Admas, said last week that Defence's remuneration reform program was aiming for a different approach to military pay.
Under questioning from Labour Senators John Hogg and Chris Evans, RADML Adams told the Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee he hoped it would be finalised as soon as possible
:rolleyes:

[ozbiggles]

and whilst we are correcting swingwing
Your fellow adf members deployed in the MEAO don't get $200/day, they get $125. You only got $200 if you were in IRAQ, which has now changed to $125 as well.Take it from me,its only fair considering the lifestyle they endure.Defence members are dying every day in Iraq, check the news!You get $125 when you 'deploy' on your type, you just get to spend it in a fancy motel.

[griffinblack]

I know the PSP was generated by the RAAF to address percieved future pilot shortfalls. Further, it appears it has died rather rapidly now that the RAAF is actually flush with pilots.

However it might be suprising to some RAAFies that ADF aviation, as a capability, is not flush and in the case of AAVN we are at critical manning in a number of key areas. This is particularly so with AIR9000 and AIR87 just around the corner.

It doesn't suprise me, but does annoy me. when we think of ADF aviation in terms of RAAF capability.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

One thing with the superannuation thingy... Correct me if I'm wrong, but while it's great in the long term if it goes ahead, doesn't the short term picture look like this:
Flying Q&S into pay for super purposes means that my 5% contribution from my pay goes UP meaning LESS pay a fortnight?? I'm sorry but I'd rather put my own money in a paper bag and leave it in the street that put it into MSBS!

Wonder how much MSBS will lose this year.. :ouch:

never ceases to amaze me how the pay cycle goes though.. I guess they learn't nothing from the last round of senior SQN pilots leaving the RAAF. If they think renumeration has nothing to do with retention they are kidding themselves..

Show me the money! .. oh yeah... ROSO... :{

[Fox3snapshot]

Your on to me.....and I had a witty smarty pants comment ready to go too!

:E

[scran]

Pass-a-frozo:

Good point about the MSBS thing. For those of us old enough to still be DFR&DB, the rolling of any part of the allowance into super would be a significant change to our pension.

For example, with the $15K ATC Allowance, if the entire amount was rolled into pay, the effect on my potential DFR&DB pension (with 27 years service) is around $8k a year to the pension - and that is indexed too remember.


I imagine one of the reasons they will not be keen for it to get up is that very fact - it would mean a large amount of un-funded liability that the Government would have to find (because lets face it - a lot of the people who are in the same boat as me are all WGCDR or above, with over 20 years of service, and probably quite a few are still with DFR&DB, so the cost to cover the super would be significant).



As for you Fox3 - when are you going to stop playing in the sand? Last time we worked together it was the sand of West Aussie, now you are even a little further left of centre? What was wrong with NZ? Don't you like snow????? :E :ok: :ok:

[Fox3snapshot]

I guess I can't escape the sand....and it seems the Aussie and Kiwi Air Force! I have seen more of them over here than I ever did at the respective units!

It would have been nice to have seen an RNZAF Air Attack force element amongst the fray but....alas, thanks to "Clarkenfuhrer " that will probably never be the case, but the rest of the gang certainly have put in a good show.

Thumbs up to the RAAF and RNZAF crews who have/are operating through the Gulf and "other" places around this way....shining example of professionals on the job!

:ok:

What has this got to do with RAAF aircrew pay???.....very little but I might want my job back someday so have to be nice, and besides pay warries only keep the interest level up for so long.

:E

SCRAN
Are you still in Carn-brah, I will be in town for a few days around the 2 July if you are a keen for a beery or two, bring my old OER just in case recruiting is nearby, might pop in and see what's on the menu.....come to think of it as that was a Pilot Officer report better keep that one in the circular filing cabinet!!!

:8

[MightyHunter]

Guys and Gals

While we're on the topic of Pensions, I read in another forum recently that Little Johnny's "its not a tax" 15% superannuation surchage is paid on total salary (including Flying Allowance), but that because our allowances are not 'pensionable, we're actually paying the 'tax' even though we dont get the benefit of higher pension.

Can anyone advise whether this is true, or is my dementia really starting to show?

PS. The funniest thing about the $125/day campaign allowance was that the guys were keen to get it, but then complained that they were locked down on Base because of the terrorist threat!

[ozbiggles]

mighty.....something (PONTI no doubt)
It must be easy sitting back in your comfy chair...at home...doing nothing, whining about paying taxes and having cheap shots at ADF people away from home. Maybe you should get some time up, because I bet you don't.

[FishHead]

hey there OzBiggles... did you get up on the wrong side of bed this morning?
Personnally, I thought the lock down complaints whilst getting a bazillion dollars a day were pretty funny too... more 'shaking my head' funny than 'ha ha' funny....

And I'm allowed to take the cheap shot... having 'got the time up' as you put it

PS..... in an effort to improve my lexical skills - what does 'PONTI' mean?

[L J R]

.

at least you did get some 'combat cash'

some countries got none - except an allowance to 1/10 of a newspaper per day and 20 minutes 'free' phone calls per week.


"Welfare package" - who needs that!



and lets not forget the ......aaah shucks ... why bother....!!!!


Predictabe that the Pilot Sustainability Project collapsed.
.


.

[ozbiggles]

G'day Fishhead
Then you have earnt the right to shake your head at those who whinge about the conditions of service which as LJR points out are better than some of the other teams. As for getting out of the wrong side of the double bunk in the tent yesterday afternoon and manning the desk all night putting up with mighty.....? comments and some others who are sitting in the comforts of their own homes working 9 to 5 well now seems to be a good time to say that PONTI stands for People Of No Tactical Importance.
cheers big ears and good work, which your fellow fishheads continue

[scran]

To answer the question re the Superannuation - yes, it includes salary and allowances.

In my case, it's the total of salary plus the ATC allowance ($15K) PLUS an additional amount attributed to your "salary' because of the employer part of the superannuation benefit that the Government pays.

I don't have my last "determination" statement handy, but for purposes of the surcharge, the Government considers my salary to be around $125K a year (from memory) - and I think the last year's "bill" was around $3K.

Will bring in my papers tomorrow and put up the actual figures if you like.......

[Booger]

A hot new furph flying around the crewroom at the moment:

Army Avo's may have had a win on getting their flying pay/allowances incorporated into their "base wage" for super purposes!?!?:ok:

Hats off if they have but I'm not holding my breath on this one.

I think it's highly dubious given that it would set a huuuuuuuuuuge precedent for the remaining services (and not just aircrew but SAS, submariners etc...) to get the same. I'm no ecomonomics expert but if the government agreed to this then surely they would have to foot the bill for an instant rise of hundreds of millions a year in MSBS super payments - that's a lot of extra speed cameras on the road!!:uhoh:

Any wokka boys care to dispel the myth or shed some light..?

[L J R]

If you are interested - RAF recently introduced 'Professional Aviators' - replacing Spec Aircrew. Flying Pay and Pay are now one item for those in the scheme. Therefore after some time in the scheme [Sqnldr]. Your wage is equivalent to WGCDR, and if you get it for a while, your pension is based on that pay. You need to lobby to any 'review group' to have similar conditions. This scheme may not be for everyone, but it is food for thought.

One note is that all tax, and other outgoing items from your pay will be based on the 'full amount'. - Things such as DFRDB / MSBS contributions may be affected.


Cheers

.

[DutchRoll]

Of course, if you're really worried about RAAF pilot pay and tax, you could do what I did..........

Resign. Now my RAAF pay is entirely tax free!;) Mind you, I'm sick of waiting for my MSBS exit rate to turn positive so I can rollover the contributions into my new (and much better performing) super. I think I'll be waiting a while, and at the rate MSBS is going, I may as well donate it to charity.

Geez, PAF, always trying to stir people up, aren't you?

[scran]

Could not find the last one - but have the previous (2001) assessment.


Systems works such:

They take my Taxable income then add the total contributions that the RAAF (or Government if you like) make to my Super and add it to taxable income to arrive at the adjusted taxable income. If you are over the threshold - you then pay a superannuation surcharge rate (which has a couple of divisions, depending how far over the threshold you are) on the amount of contributions.

So, my numbers were:

Taxable income - $77K
Employer contributions- $16K

adjusted taxable income- $93K

which puts me over the Surcharge threshold (not sure what it was this year, somewhere around $85K I think)


the "rate" for that income 10.04558% of the 16K, so the amount I have to pay is $1619.25


I have the option of paying it when advised, or letting it accrue, and the interest rate is the Long term bond rate if you don't pay it up front.

I'm told that if you don't pay it, when you retire, they deduct the amount owing from any lump-sum payout you are entitled to. The advantage of that is they take it out before taxing the lump-sum, so you can avoid a third tax strike that way.

Also heard that there was talk of abolishing this "tax", and if that is the case, the amount I owe goes away. Assume if you had paid it they would refund the money. However, have not heard any info on this in some time, so probably will not happen.


With respect to rolling allowances into salary and affecting super - there has been talk of the "skills" part being moved to salary, but any "retention" part not so. Not sure how that would effect the $15K I get as ATC Allowance for example (I would claim the way it is set up - as it depends on what ratings etc you acheive - is all skill based).

If they DID roll the whole lot in the effect for me (DFRDB with 27 years service) is:

Pension on final pay, no allowance - 45.75% of $82864 - $37910
Pension on final pay, with allowance - 45.75% of $97864-$44772

So, an increase of just under $7K a year. Also would mean an extra $35K if I elected to take the maximum lump-sum payout.


With a few of us in that position - no wonder the Government is not keen to roll allowances into salary. As someone said - it will cause a massive "bill" that the Governement would face.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

DutchRoll:

Just pointing out some facts :) How you take the facts is not up to me..

My time will come :D

Anyway, shouldn't you be flying overseas somewhere :O

[DutchRoll]

Incidently, talking about the Super Surcharge, your aviation brethren in the QF pilots association are about to launch High Court action against the Federal Government to try & have the surcharge tax struck down (Supreme Court judges have already succeeded, and Federal Court judges are about to launch similar action against the Government in the High Court).

The Government is on shaky legal ground with the way the surcharge is implemented (you probably didn't know it, but it's possible to owe surcharge tax on income you've never received due to its inequities).

The ATO privately concedes that the pilots association has a pretty good case, but has also made it clear that the Government plans on doing a 'Custer's Last Stand' to keep the super surcharge revenue.

If you'd like to know more (and military pilots are kidding themselves if they think they won't give severely hit by super surcharge), you can find out more here:SOS Australia (http://www.sosaustralia.org)

(that is, if the server is up, which it wasn't when I posted the link)