McNERC

[mhk77]

Is there an official line now from NATS management about the new Scottish Centre? Is it being built now? If so when will it be complete? And whats going to happen to MACC? Will it be going South, North or staying put?

[Loki]

If there was an official line, would you believe it?

[Minesapint]

:confused:

If we were running our own business we would not have four ATC centres, or two for that matter. We would have one.

From a business viewpoint put all three centres at Swanwick. One building, centralised engineering, HR and support. We would save millions every year.

There is room for ScACC, MACC and TC at Swanwick. All the non-operational staff at the tech centre including the test and development teams.

ATC and engineering staff are mobile grades and always have been.

Politically its a different issue. The government said it will build a new ScACC. However, they will need to pay for it because with a £750m debt, we certainly cannot.

If I was at MACC I would much rather go south and I was born there!

[contact_tower]

Who have 4?

That's just about right, we have four on this side of the north sea allso! And 5 FIR's!

It's insane really, Trondheim ATCC is currently 2 sectors ( yes I'm not kidding :rolleyes: ), but close it down and move it to Oslo ATCC, NO WAY!!!! That may actually save som money and provide better service to the customers...... :yuk:

:mad:

[Vercingetorix]

Minesapint
if you were running your own business you would go broke. Two centres gives a back up in the event of terrorism. Check out the official NATS strategy.

Cheers

[Minesapint]

I would certainly go broke if I paid to run four buildings/ops/engineering/admin/atc/HR etc.

One building, 4 power supplies, one systems control/HR/admin etc. wakey wakey!:ok:

[Vercingetorix]

Agree with the guys .... not in good taste

Edited by PPRuNE Radar

[TrafficTraffic]

Me Thinx (yes even ME)

That the comment about the WTC was far from tasteful.......now where are the moderators when you need them. :confused:

[Minesapint]

I agree. Bad taste even for an obvious fool. :mad: :mad:

[bagpuss lives]

I'm at MACC (and the airport side of things too) and personally, I'd much rather go north actually.

A great proportion of colleagues I've spoken to about it would rather not go anywhere to be honest and some, like me, may be covertly praying for McNERC to take rather longer than is planned. Selfish I know....

Not that things like that happen within NATS of course ;)

[mainecoon]

nite you know that i agree with you i think but i have a cheaper option
buy it from this link and dock it along side the royal yacht in leith

has it's own radar
runway
and living quarters for all nats staff (hr richard etc)
and the biggest decking in edinburgh
class www.frenchcreekboatsales.com/details.asp?File_Number=BOP12

:cool:

[bagpuss lives]

Nice boat ;)

I thought I'd bring this back to the top of the pile given the recent letter to the Union passed around at MACC that pained a rather damning picture of McNERC and the feelings of my colleagues with regard to the move.

I wonder how the union and management felt upon reading it? :)

[250 kts]

Plenty of room for you all on the south coast. Just think you could all make a killing on your properties in Wilmslow and Bowden-after all Tatton is the richest constituency in UK-and buy a place with a view of the water.

Come on down!!

[Arran's view]

nightflite. You don't tell us what was in the letter.

[qwerty2]

Patience Arran you'll hear all about it soon enough but you may feel offended by its contents.

Most current Area Controllers at MAN will not move their families to Ayrshire and are actively seeking alternative options.

A move south to LACC is the preferred move!

[VectorLine]

New Prestwick Centre
21/05/2003
Colin Chisholm and Rob Witty have issued the following statement about the
New Prestwick Centre.
We thought you would wish to know that, at its meeting yesterday, the Board
approved the business case for re-starting the construction programme for
the New Prestwick Centre building within the framework of NATS' Future
Centres Programme.

While this is very good news, we are not quite at the end of the approval
process. The Future Centres Programme was included in the 2003 Business Plan
on which NATS' customers were consulted and gave their broad support. The
next step requires a further period of consultation on the specific
proposals for the New Prestwick Centre and this will be carried out over the
next couple of months as part of the normal round of discussions on our
Service and Investment Plan. Subject to the outcome of this consultation, we
hope to be in a position to re-start the project in July.


Colin Chisholm
Rob Witty

[BALIX]

Patience Arran you'll hear all about it soon enough but you may feel offended by its contents.

Why do we assume that we will be offended if you would rather go south than north? Well, some of my colleagues might but I suspect that most will know it all comes down to personal preference. If I were at MACC and were given the option of Ayrshire or Hampshire, I'd probably go for the latter as well.

Anyway, according to the last posting, it looks as though McNERC will soon be given the go-ahead. Hooray. Maybe, just maybe, I'll get to use some half decent equipment before I retire in about fifteen years.

[bagpuss lives]

As I said earlier, I'd rather not go anywhere to be honest. Sadly that isn't to be a choice by all accounts and the north beckons.

I don't have any kids to worry about, not at this exact moment at least, but I do agree with some of the issues raised in said MACC circular (worries pertaining to relocation of families, schooling, differing financial considerations) and support my colleagues fully.

It is however, by no means a personal dislike by myself of Scotland. Far from it. Nor do I think any of my colleagues have anything personal against the lands north of the border or the people therein.

I think it's important we establish that straight away before a rather large can of haggis-flavoured worms is opened :D

[Findo]

Just returned from "down south" where I have heard some detail about the MACC letter. No doubt it will surface here in time.

I think the author is more to be pitied than pilloried. The transfer has been on the cards for about 2 years and nobody has informed the MACC staff about what they can expect. It is not surprising that someone is fearful of something he does not know or particularly want to know.

Anyway the folks from MACC will be welcome here. I don't personally believe many ATCOs will be able to go south because the business needs them in Prestwick when the sectors move.

We wait with interest the next management announcements.

[250 kts]

Any chance of us seeing this letter-surely it can't be too damning of Ayrshire-can it??????????

[DangerousD]

I have read the letter and no it is not that anti Ayrshire but does raise concerns of many here at Manchester about a move to the west coast of Scotland. I personally have only visited breifly on a fam visit but even then as an Englishman I was warned as to what pubs to go into in Ayr (even on a quiet Monday night!). We have a number of controllers who have lived and worked in that region of Scotland who would never go back there because of the undercurrent of anti English feelings plus also our lack of knowledge of the sectarian problems that we may encounter. We have controllers whose children were victims of bullying (one of which was hospitalised on two occasions), and we hear that there are even controllers who live over the border in Carlisle and commute to work. Admittedly this is all heresay and gossip but does understandably lead to alot of controllers worrying about a relocation for their families to that area of Scotland.

Perhaps NATS would fund trips for us and our families to the area to make up our own minds?? At the end of the day NATS has made their minds up about the two centre stratagy and as mobile grades we have to live with that fact. Bill Semple and a couple of other Exec's came to chat to the staff last week and the result was that everyone has a choice and Mr Semple did not seem too concernec if 20,40,60, or 80% of the staff would not move up North as he was confident that there would be enough new or current staff at NERC who would go to Prestwick in 2009/10. He said all staff would be consulted, probably in July/August and asked what thier preference would be and that management would try to accomodate peoples wishes.

I personnaly cannot move North as my wife cannot move that direction with her work and I put in a tranfer request 18 months ago to make sure I would be close to the front of any queue that may form to go South.( p.s. have heard nothing back despite the suppossed lack of staff down South)

[n5m]

Actually, there is more than 1 letter circulating at Manchester, both of which I have read. Neither letter is at all "damning" of Ayrshire, the Scottish centre (new or old), or Scottish people, but already people at work are crying racist, so we must be very careful not to add fuel to that nasty little fire.

Above all, it is my feeling that the staff at Manchester are appalled that they have not been consulted on the move of MACC. The fact that we weren't isn't really a surprise, going on our employers past performance. It didn't help that we heard the news in a press release either. Please bear in mind that many people have in their possession letters sent on posting to MACC, stating quite categorically that they would be posted to NERC, when MACC moves to the south coast!

One of the concerns raised, relates to the perceived dislike of English people by a contingent north of the border. Many people have kids in schools and I guess that may be cause for concern. It is a horrible concern to have to raise, one which I have no experience of myself. This concern has, however, been strengthened by the agreement of colleagues and friends who have worked and lived in Scotland, some of which are still there, some of which are Scottish. I believe there was a documentary shown on TV to this effect recently, which I didn't see but some did. None of us are under the impression that any such feeling has been evidenced within NATS itself. Those that have worked at Scoatcc are very specific about the fact that they have no complaints with the working environment.This is a concern about treatment in pubs, shops, schools etc.

The other point to stress is that by no means does everyone at MACC agree with the letter being circulated. Those that do will have signed it, those that don't won't.

I think that the vast majority of people at Manchester would prefer to have migrated south rather than north, given a choice between the two. That is yet to be evidenced though, as the staff have not been given a chance to voice their preferences as yet.

[MATZ]

Right then.

As an Eglishman "up with the jocks" (albeit on the Mil side), I had little choice in coming here, but I can say what a great place it is.

I have been here for nearly a year, and not once witnessed any "anti-english"ism. I even go to the local pub and watch the England football games on their big screen. OK the locals support the opposition, but then again, I support the opposition when someone else is playing Sotland! All the local pubs are very friendly, with a variety of entertainment - from quizzes to karaoke. What else could a man (or woman) want.

The housing is good quality, the pubs are great, beer is a reasonable price, lots of nice places to eat. I can see the sea from my lounge and kitchen. I can park my car on any local street without fear ( I had 2 cars broken in to on my 2 visits to Manchester). One of the local restaurants is even featured in a Rick Stein Cook Book (Seafood Lovers Guide - Page 125).

And, before you all start, I do appreciate that moving the MACC "up north" may not suit all, the quality of life is good, and if you must go back to the Manchester on your days off, at least you won't have to fight your way around Brum! The journey to Shrewsbury takes less than 5 hrs. I know many people that spend an equivalent time each day in a car commuting!

I hope that the McNERC gets on line quickly, after all, some of the kit is older than most of the Mil assistants, and I am confident it will be better than the NERC. (I think we learnt a lot of lessons there).

Here endeth the lesson.
MATZ

[Findo]

Dangerous d and others.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. As a Scot whose wife and step children moved from Stockport, at school age, I think you are being more than a little gullible.

Yes it takes time to settle like any move. Yes you have to be aware of your new surroundings and have to make an effort to integrate to the local community. This is not England but it is a good part of Britain to live in. My next-door neighbour is from Essex and she did not settle for the first year. Now she loves the place and wouldn't move south again for anything.

No there are no controllers who live in Carlisle and commute. We have one who lives in Newcastle because his family are rooted there. We also have one who commutes from Prestwick to Newcastle because he has a season ticket at St James' park !!

Any misgivings should have been addressed when the decision was made to relocate MACC north nearly 2 years ago but Mr Robinson decided it was easier to not talk about the matter. What is your present GM saying ? He is in charge of your welfare and knows the plans.

Mr Semple ???? Sorry chaps he is now a Government advisor and has nothing to do with the disposition of staff north or south. Get your GM to do the arithmetic and tell you how many are needed to run the sectors when they go north. The rest is up to your managers so ask them what is going to happen.

We'll be happy to see those who join us in 2009.

[n5m]

Hold your horses.......:oh:

I was not saying that I agree with the views stated in the post I have made above, in fact I do not. I was merely trying to explain SOME of the MACC personnel's concerns.

Please let's not let this turn into something it is not. I'm sure Ayrshire is an extremely nice place.

I suspect that southerners will prefer to relocate to NERC and northerners may be more keen on McNERC due to family ties, but we will have to wait and see.

As I say, I had no bad experiences during my very brief stay at Scottish centre, I do remember getting the same talk as DD though regarding which pubs were OK for English folk now that he mentions it.

So, can you guys put hands on hearts and say that such anti-English sentiment doesn't exist? If so then we can put this to bed.

Cheers

n5m

[Scott Voigt]

Interesting thread....

I for one would move to Scotland in a heartbeat if I could get a job there after I retired from here <G>... Visited a few times and have loved it each time. Great people and the liquid nourishment is wonderful <G>...

Scott

[250 kts]

DD, You say "I personnaly cannot move North as my wife cannot move that direction with her work and I put in a tranfer request 18 months ago to make sure I would be close to the front of any queue that may form to go South.( p.s. have heard nothing back despite the suppossed lack of staff down South)".

There were a significant number of staff who moved to LACC whose partners had to give up well paid jobs. Hopefully you won't be in the same position but I wouldn't assume that NATS will take any notice of her situation and frankly why should they?

Still not too sure why MACC staff are so surprised that the new centre has been given the go-ahead after all the political lobbying to ensure that it does.

[n5m]

I wouldn't say that the MACC staff are surprised that the new centre is to go ahead at all. We are just annoyed that we have never been given the opportunity to voice our personal preferences regarding the relocation. MACC staff were very used to the idea, up until 1-2 years back, that we would be heading south. When it was announced then that the plan had changed to go north, many of us were quite vocal about the issue and at a guess 1-2 per watch then lodged transfer requests to NERC. Most staff, tired of the constant rumours, probably elected to do little until a definite course of action was decided on, which is now. In any case, our employers have made it more than plain that our preferences are of no interest to them.


It's a horrible rainy day today in Manchester, but I see from the weather report that it's sunny on the south coast. Wonder what it's like in Scotland? Please forgive me!:D

[Arran's view]

n5m

Another miserable day here.

2003/06/14 14:50
EGPK 141450Z VRB03KT 9999 FEW035 18/09 Q1021

Having watched the Red Arrows do a brief display at the airport and then taken the dog for a walk down the beach, I'm not convinced that METAR is accurate. I reckon it could be 5 kts.


Like some of the other posters I don't understand why you guys don't go ask your managers. The plans haven't changed since the decision to move north was made and your managers have access to all the plans so why not demand the information.


By contrast there is a bit of controversy here about management airspace plans. When the news hit the streets we made a fuss and had a statement within 5 days and a promised visit by members of the Executive within a week. They won't get an easy time when they visit and we will get to the bottom of the story shortly.

[n5m]

I think it's safe to say that we will definitely be having some discussions with management in this regard. They are claiming that the staff are to be consulted in a few months time.

[Take up the Hold]

If I remember correctly when McNERC was in its infancy, as NSC, back in the early 90s it was the intention then to bring Manchester to the sunny Clyde coast. There was even a rep based in Glenburn House. When NSC proved too expensive they then decided to move Manchester to NERC. Through politics over the past few years it was decided to equalise (nearly) the size of the 2 centres, hence Manchester coming once again to ScACC.
I do have sympathy with those who do not want to move anywhere from Manchester, whether north or south but everyone is a mobile grade. We went through a period of uncertainty when the New Scottish/Prestwick Centre was postponed. There were all sorts of rumours about when we would be moving, and to where. We did not believe all managements assurances that it would eventually be built. Unless anything happened this morning there is still nothing going on, apart from the seagulls washing themselves in what looks like an Olympic size swimming pool.
The west coast is a lovely spot and I would have no hesitation in recommending you come up for a visit to sample the delights.
The weather here today is superb and yes it does rain but Manchester has that reputation as well.

TUTH

[BALIX]

Yeah, the weather up here today has been great but let it not cloud the fact that it is usually pants...

n5m asked about the anti-Englishness up here. Well, with twenty years experience of being English up here I can pass on my experiences with a reasonable amount of authority. It would be wrong to say that it doesn't exist - there are people out there (in the area, not ScACC itself) who will dislike you because of your accent. But there are not many of them, thankfully. You would probably be just as likely to meet someone in the Swanwick area who would take a dislike to you for your northen accents.

Despite twenty + years up here, I consider myself to be very much English but even I would say don't let the supposed anti-Englishness cloud your judgement. It isn't really a factor (World Cups notwithstanding :ouch: ) and a bit of basic research will minimise the 'risk' even further.

Like all locations there are pros and cons. For me, the biggest pros are cheap housing and quiet roads.

The downsides are the weather and the fact that in my case, it will never be home.

In your siuation I would probably prefer to go south; if you all get posted up here, however, I'm sure you will be pleasantly surpised. I hope you all get the postings you want.

[n5m]

Quick head count on my watch shows that there are more southerners than northerners, for what it's worth. I have never come across any anti-northern feeling in the south, maybe others have.

[DangerousD]

just to respond to a couple of the replies.......

I don't think I'm being gullible about the move up north. Iam just quoting what people I work with every day have to say about their experiences. I am big enough to make my own judgements and decisions and even suggested in my original post that it would be a welcome idea if the company made provision for the staff and their families to visit the area around Prestwick to help them make up their own minds.

Also I will not be going up North for personal reasons as my wife cannot transfer with her work and she is extremely unwilling to move another 200 odd miles away from her family. I know the company does not have to take this into consideration but I'm sure their have been numerous postings made on compasionate grounds before. At the end of the day I would pack in this job in an instant to be with my wife and child than spend half my life away from them, and nats would be foolish to think that all of us controllers are the main wage earners in the families.

[BALIX]

Quick head count on my watch shows that there are more southerners than northerners, for what it's worth. I have never come across any anti-northern feeling in the south, maybe others have.

Nope, neither have I which is the point - you are unlikely to get it down there, you are unlikely to get it up here.

I was posted up here against my wishes so I know precisely how you feel. Twenty years on and I'm not going to tell you that this is the best place in the world - it isn't, but it can't be that bad if I, a seriously patriotic Englishman, am still here.

However, I'd like to think that NATS will take into consideration the feelings of the majority of staff at MACC and move the unit to wherever you want it to go.

Some hope of that...

[A I]

Now that a certain Mr Rob Witty has so elegantly been removed from the company, I wonder if this debate will reopen? As an aside, the other champion of this move, a certain CC is ret9iring in the VERY near future!

A I

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