Overhead joins in Class D

[incubus]

I mostly fly from Class D airspace, so when I had the opportunity to visit Perth last weekend, the overhead join seemed very strange. Only the second time I have done one and I'm not convinced that either was particularly good. This, of course, down to lack of practice. I have been pampered by solid control for most of my 90-odd hours and have only just started venturing further afield.

This leads me to wonder how keen the controllers at my home field would be for me to practice overhead joins, regardless of how pointless they would be. I'm not talking about doing them for an hur solid either - but once in a while could be useful.

What would be the primary concerns and objections from ATC to this sort of behaviour?

Ta.

[vintage ATCO]

It puts you 'in the way' for longer if they are busy. If they are moving a lot of heavy metal at the time, when you go crosswind they cannot depart anything, and it does put you in the way of any possible go-arounds.

But. . . . if they have no or little other traffic at the time, then I don't see why they shouldn't let you. Why not give them a ring beforehand and discuss it. Say you want the practice and I am sure they'll fit it in when they can.

Note that some airfields don't have a 'dead side' for various reasons.


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vintage ATCO
www.stevelevien.com

[radar707]

Incubus, all you have to do is ask, I take it your based at either EGPF or EGPH, providing we're not overly busy then we'll accommodate you.

In fact I would say that the majority of controllers at airfields in Class D haven't done an overhead join for a long time so it's good practice for us.

I know I haven't done one for a couple of years, maybe even longer!!!!!!!!!!!

[2 sheds]

It really is time that a few aerodromes got to grip with this very useful, and often, much safer, procedure. For years, there have been generations of NATS controllers who have never been trained in its application, but... just a few years ago, CAA finally recognised that it is used by civil traffic. The problem had been that all the UK civil procedures were taken directly from ICAO, and while that august body defines the basic circuit, it avoids the issue of how an aircraft joins it if it is already fairly full.

NATS touches on overhead joins in the current aerodrome training, and for future aerodrome courses from 2004, watch this space...

Sorry to see the myth that some aerodromes "do not have a dead side". They might like to make that claim to avoid overhead joins, but any aerodrome / runway can a dead side if an aircraft flies the overhead join procedure procedure. It is just that - part of a procedure, not a brick wall.

While one has to be careful with potential vortex interaction with departures, it really is overstating the case to suggest that departures or the possibility of a missed approach, are a problem. How long does it take even a light aircraft to cross through the extended centreline? It's just a question of the controller exercising a little judgement and actually controlling the situation.

[incubus]

Radar707 - EGPD actually :)

sheds - if you have traffic in a left hand circuit and traffic in a right hand circuit, which is the deadside?

What happens if the cross-runway on the "deadside" is being used to recover helicopters?

[1261]

EGPD is very much a unique case as far as aerodrome traffic goes; if no-one from PD replies, PM me and I'll see if I can put you in touch with someone.

[NorthSouth]

Nice of radar707 to be so accommodating, and typical of ATC at EGPH/F in my experience if you'll pardon the a***-licking. But in my experience at Edinburgh you'd be very lucky to get an overhead join except maybe on a Saturday afternoon, because ATC would have to stop all arrivals and departures for the whole time from the a/c approaching the overhead right through to it turning downwind at circuit height, and would then still have to do the normal fitting of the aircraft on to final in between the big boys. Chances are you'd end up being told to orbit on the deadside or something which would make it non-standard and therefore less training value.

Problem for PPLs at Aberdeen is that it's such a long way to anywhere where you can do an overhead join. On the other hand, what about Insch? Or even any of the private strips such as Hatton? You don't need to land if all you're interested in is practising the joining procedure. There's also nothing stopping you from picking any old field in the middle of nowhere and practising an overhead join to it.

[Gaza]

I almost came a cropper at Gloucester a few years ago. Having learned my flying in the US and spent most of my time around EGPH I had never done an overhead join. On arrival at Gloucester I was asked to join overhead. Instead of admitting that I was very unsure of what to do I frantically tried to remember what I had read. I made a complete balls-up and came very close to having a mid-air. After a trip to the tower with my tail between my legs I vowed to learn the procedure properly!

[Cuddles]

AFAIK the reason for not doing overhead rejoins up here is indeed due to there not being a 'dead side' to speak of as the preferred circuit direction is to the west of the field, with recovering helicopters proliferating to the east. You could always try going to Insch or one of the other farm strips outside the CAS up here if you want to get some practice in doing them. After all, all you really need is a runway, if that, any feature could theoretically be used, you could just pretend that there was traffic in a circuit, left or right hand, as the mood took you.

However, I'm a lowly offshore controller, so perhaps Data dad or U R number 1 may care to add their greater knowledge and experience to this. I'll give them a chivvy up tomorrowif I see them.

[Galaxy Defender]

At EGPD the preferred direction of the circuit is to the west of the field, away from Dyce. This makes it very difficult to 'declare' east of the field as the dead side because traffic can and does approach from any direction for anyone of a number of different runways.

However, this should not put you off asking for an overhead join, but there are a few things you should bear in mind, don't ask when it's busy, evenings and quite weekend would be best, secondly, as it's not a common practise at EGPD, the tower controller may be unsure what you are intending to do and may be hesitant in allowing the procedure especially when there is other traffic around and finally, ask ATC early for the procedure, even mention it when you book out, this will allow the controllers to plan well in advance, or be on a break when you return to the field!

Hope this helps.

[Evil J]

Speaking as an ATCO at a class D airport and also part time A/g at a nearby GA field I think I can see this from two view points.

Firstly I don't think in a known traffic environment (eg class D) there is little merit in making an overhead join (except for training). As I understood the reason to join overhead is to observe the signals square and visually aquire other traffic in the circuit area. I don't know but I doubt any airfields with class D still operate a signals square and given the kbnown traffic environment you should be at least told about other traffic (if not separated!) permitting you to aquire it without going into the overhead.

Somewhere uncontrolled however (and I consider A/G to be uncontrolled) the overhead join works extremely well and I am consistently impressed whilst performing A/G duties of the efficiency of the system (if everyone excercises common courtesy/airmanship); that said it wouldn't work as discussed earlier with high performance jets coming and going.

[Sensible]

"Standard overhead joins" seems to be pretty common at Shoreham, I don't understand why an overhead join is used at all at a controlled airport, whats wrong with joining crosswind or downwind on the 45? :confused: The traffic pattern seems to end up looking like flies around a pile of poo :D

[nats]

How times change,when 08/26 was in use at EGPH,overhead rejoin at 2000' was the standard to those runways.It helped reduce conflicts with main runway ops,particularly for Kelty/Polmont arrivals.