zone infringment

[Kirstey]

What's the procedure if you infringe a control zone? clipped one the other day, and only realised looking at the chart today. I was working the Radar controlling the zone, so I'm assuming they knew I was there.

Ta!

[niknak]

First and foremost - don't lose any sleep over it, no one is going to kick your door down at 5am and pull your toe nails out.

You've had the honesty to realise your error and hold your hands up, and you obviously didn't do it intentionally.
If the unit you were working didn't say anything at the time or contact you later that day, it's very unlikely that it will be taken any further.

Even if it does go further, the CAA take a very balanced attitude to such things, simply admit that it was a genuine error and that you have learnt from the experience, they may recommend a check ride with an instructor on a similar or same route, but they won't tear your hard earned licence up. :)

[vintage ATCO]

The best thing to do if you think you have infringed CAS is to call or telephone as soon as possible. They may be unable to say much over the RT so telephone as soon as you are down. Many of these sorts of things can be sorted out over the telephone without resorting to filing reports. If the infringement has disrupted things then we are duty bound to file but it can mitgate things if the report shows the pilot telephoned and the matter discussed and the pilot accepted the infringement.

If you were working the particular radar unit at the time and nothing was said then I can only assume it was not taken as an infringement but if in doubt telephone.

I was once telephoned by a pilot to apologise for infringing the Luton zone. He explained that his daughter was being sick at the time and his attention wondered. As Watch Manager, I hadn't been told of an infringement so stuck my head into the radar room to ask who had seen the infringement. No one had. I congratulated the pilot on evading surveillance. :D


VA

[SevernTMA]

Then again there was that helicopter pilot fined £500 last November for clipping the Gatwick zone....! And I mean clipping not flying through the final approach and bringing the place to a standstill.....

[niknak]

Kirsty, as I said don't worry about it unduly, Vintage Atco made a valid point about getting in touch with the unit, but it's far more likely that they would have contacted you by now if they wanted to take it further - after all they knew who you were and where you were flying to.

:mad: Severn's comments were totally irrelevant and very unhelpful, I dont know if he/she was trying to wind you up, but ignore them.

The only people who fine you for flying infringements are the UK Courts, and this is only after the CAA have investigated the matter thoroughly and decided that there is a good case to prosecute the individual because they've not just transgressed, but there's more to the case that needs investigation than may initially meet the eye.

[GroundBound]

Seems like confession time - to put your mind at rest :)

Some months ago I was taking a check ride with an instructor, which took us close to a prohibited zone around a military establishment, at a time of reasonably high alert (terrorist threat etc.). We were both aware of the zone, the instructor discussing with me who it was "down there", as we flew by it.

I was a little bit unsettled, because I had noticed some months earlier that my GPS update from Jeppeson, had shown the zone to be larger than on my chart. I had no trace of a NOTAM indicating the change, and had also recently enquired whether I had the most recent chart - apparently so. I had shown the GPS to another instructor on an earlier occasion and been told - "you can't trust those things". Also, as it was a check ride, my GPS was in the flight bag. :(

Despite my urge to skirt this zone by a wider margin, the instructor told me to turn "no, no, go straight for that lake". On landing, we were "cordially invited" to contact the military ATC unit who wanted to talk to us, as we had cut through a large segment of the zone (yes it was bigger than on the chart, and my GPS update was correct, and they had tracked us on radar!).

The instructor made the call and he received a right bo!!ocking over the phone. It seems that many infringements of this zone had taken place over the last year, and ATC were getting pretty fed up with it. The matter ended there, apart from a warning that any further infringement would be pursued more seriously.

So I reckon if you only just skimmed it, and you called the ATC Unit to explain, and they didn't seem concerned, then that's the end of the matter, and you don't need to worry about it.

Post Script:
It seems that the zone had been extended by NOTAM before the chart had been produced, and that it was so long ago, that the AIP had been updated and the NOTAM withdrawn. It also seems that no-one in the flying club was aware of it, either. The only way to check was to compare co-ordinates of the zone in the AIP against the chart (and who does that, eh?).

I notice that the wall chart in the flying club now has the zone highlighted in fluorescent pink with its new dimensions. :)

Horses and stables doors comes to mind!

[Kirstey]

Cheers!

I would've contacted them, had a realised at the time I'd offended! As it was I noticed many hours and many beers later that night. The exact process was "Just how tall were those TV masts we flew between" When I couldn't find them where I though they were on the chart I looked harder and found them buried under the edge of the Cardiff CTR!

There is I believe a Human factors issue here that could be brought up, does anyone remember the URL for the infringment working group?

And if any of you guys were working Cardiff Radar on Sunday lunchtime then sorry!!! PM me if you want that phone call!

[Llamapoo]

I don't know of an infringement working group, but I've included a link to CHIRP - there's a GA section there.

Confidential Human factors Incident Reporting Programme (http://www.chirp.co.uk/air/default.htm)

[vintage ATCO]

I wouldn't worry now. As you were working them they would have said something at the time. Have another beer! :D


VA

[Flap Speed]

Kirstey

Is this what you are looking for ??

http://www.flyontrack.co.uk/

[Kirstey]

Bingo!!

That's exactly what I was after!

ta

[FWA NATCA]

Kirstey,

Accidental control zone entries happen all the time (at least here in the US they do). I work at an airport with a Class C airspace, so for us it depends on the degree of the violation and whether or not it caused us problems (did we shut of departures or break out arrivals because you got in the way) whether or not we Hunt you down.

Most controllers would rather spend a few minutes on the phone talking to a pilot about the potential problems with violating a control zone than doing a bunch of paper work, I call this educate rather than violate, but sometimes we don't have a choice (depending on how bad you violated the airspace and the problems that you caused).

For example with a class C airspace it is possible for a pilot to cross off the end of my departure runway or arrival runway at 1400 msl and just a fraction over 5 miles and be legal, is it safe "NO" because you could become a hood ornament on another acft.

Mike
NATCA FWA

[Barnaby the Bear]

I echo the others. It is a fairly frequent occurence. It is refreshing to find someone who realises what they have done and wants to right it.
It is usually only a reportable issue to the ATCO on duty (personnal view) when it may have endangered another aircraft eg in the circuit etc. And depending on how much you infringed the ATZ.

You have obviously realised the mistake and learnt from it. So I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it.

:}

[ShyTorque]

Vintage ATCO,

The pilot who "coughed" about infringing while distracted because his daughter was throwing up but never even got noticed....

Is that a case of "sic transit gloria"? ;)

[vintage ATCO]

Probably, if I knew what it meant :confused:

[ShyTorque]

From my schoolboy latin, I think it means something like "Thus passes the glory".

But I thought it seemed a good play on words, especially if his daughter's name had been Gloria.

Oh well. :rolleyes:

[Human Factor]

Kirstey,

There's almost always someone who's done worse. The most spectacular infringement I saw was three or four years ago with an individual in a PA-28 orbiting BHX at about 3000ft one sunny Sunday afternoon. Unfortunately, he wasn't talking to them and then proceeded away from the airfield by flying up the active ILS approach. Muggins here was flying down said ILS at the time in a 737!! Missed us by a reasonable margin in the end, otherwise you'd probably have heard about it from various other sources, doubtless including the Daily Mail!!:rolleyes:

[Fallows]

I was subject to an infringement report last year. I am an ATC "bod" with hundreds of hours experience, my co pilot/ passenger was a very, very, senior airline captain and CRM expert who knew the local area intimately. The reason for the infringement was a misunderstanding between us and ATC filed a report. I was the pilot in command and admitted to an honest mistake and it was not pursued. My point is that with all that experience we are still human and liaible to make mistakes and I think that the CAA are mature enough to recognise that and not take enforcement action because of human error