Is DJ really half an Airline?

[Eastwest Loco]

Had real nice one today that may interest PPruNers.

The partner of my office manager was due to fly back from CBR to LST over MEL with DJ departing 0950.

Initially CBR was fogged in, and what can you do. WX delays go with the territtory.

The fog eventually cleared, and then the 737 promply shat itself and went U/S, as they do on occasion.

Our client - the partner - was told that the flight was totally cancelled and was offered a seat on the next days flight - for his weekend home with one day totally lost - no offer or commitment to accommodation overnight.

I waded in at this point asking Sales Support for the passenger to be redirected onto the QF seats I had held in anticipation via a flight interruption manifest only to be greeted by a "we don't do that". Bleeding amazing as this was after they had to call Aerocareless or whichever other plastics recycling and airline ground handling company they use to confirm that the flight was actually cancelled!! Their system and the web showed the flight as live and boarding 1010 over an hour after it had been canned.

We were offered a full refund, ie: go away - our aeroplane is broken and you can have your money back, but then would have had to buy a fresh ticket at full Y as loadings were very heavy.

Subsequently, DJ managed to find an A/C CBR MEL that departed around 1350, too late to get the MEL LST connector and would have turned this into a 13 hour expedition if the late flight into LST was used. We wound up purchasing a MELDPO seat on QF for the poor traveller, and got a whole $4.00 rebate to be used later for him on the unflown MEL LST sector. QF Link BNE were brilliant and cleared the seat at the cheapest possible price.

As I knew it, and as happens now between Rex QF and Alliance,if one is not able to project a service, the psgr is accommodated on a suitable service with another carrier. If all that was available was full Y class, then the airline with the broken aeroplane wore that, and the same operated in reverse.

This is the finest example of total disregard for the travelling public and total lack of Airline culture that I have seen in many years and ranks right up there with Chinese carriers for ineptitude. Really, if Ops Control and/or Shambles Planning arent aware of an unserviceability, where the hell is the days schedule going?

It reinforces a view I have had from the beginning, that Virgin Blue is not a real airline, just a rich mans toy driven by excellent marketing and very willing and eager wide eyed staff. Time o grow up I feel. Australia does not need Euro cattle carriers.

Time to stand back and have a good look at yourselves and what you are being fed by management as DJ is a million dollar aeroplane with a 50 cent flight deck.

Not an isolated incident either. A mate's 16yo daughter took 14 hours to get from LST to SYD recently, initially due to the dreaded fog in MEL, but subsequently 6 hours on the deck in ADL and another 4 in MEL. Accommodation on QF would have left a happier psgr and they may have even tried DJ again.

If Virgin Blue wishes to be considered a serious airline, then now would be a good time to start acting like one. Personally, I cannot see it happening, and will think twice before offering them as an alternative.

Waiting for incoming - with much glee

EWL

[go_dj]

EWL
As a travel agent one would think you would know the
definition of a low cost airline or no frills as they are known,
like Southwest, Easyjet and Ryanair, Virgin Blue does the
same and does not have to offer accommodation or transfer
pax to other airlines in case of a cancelled flight, just a full refund
or the next flight, all the above examples are profitable and
pax are willing to put up with the occasional stuffup when
it occures.

But lets get down to the nitty gritty as to why you are bitter
and twisted over VB and have a shot whenever the oppartunity
arises. Could it be that VB have just carried their 10 millionth
pax and that some 80% of them booked through the internet
instead of a travel agent? thats most likely 7-8 million that
would have used an agent 5-6 years ago, and I agree a lot
of $$$ now that a T/A will never see, but it is called progress
and one has to face the reality, in the next couple of years
QF will also be up around 80% of bookings over the internet.

Your a very unusal T/A that has never used the 2nd airline
of this country as you mentioned in a post the other day,
maybe you should try it before advising your clients on something
you have never tried yourself, the fact is VB is going gangbusters
so they must be doing something right.

Have a nice day and maybe a Bex and a good lie down.

[Snowballs]

EWL half and airline or half the truth ?

“It reinforces a view I have had from the beginning, that Virgin Blue is not a real airline”

While no doubt VB stuff up from time to time, any unbiased comment would also say QF has had more than their fair share of similar stuff ups recently.

Being in the travel industry, is your comment more to do with industry resentment of the loss of fat commissions payed until the emergence of VB and the inevitable demise of Ansett.

Looking around the travel agents in my area it is very obvious the industry has had massive changes and a dose of reality forced upon it, like the airlines themselves, after the political destruction of Compass Mark 1, the collapse of Ansett through the likes of VB entering the cosy, protected and up until then, a high cost, high margin industry which the vast majority of Australians could not afford.

VB, must do something right, as their market share is growing with a majority using commission free, online booking which like it or not keeps costs down. The old expensive, political and unaffordable duopoly is dead and gone forever.

Most people in the advise industry have to state vested interests when passing comment or advise, perhaps you could tell us the commission rates of QF etc vs VB ?

My vested interests: I don’t work for any airline or have any interests in the travel industry ….. regardless good luck in the industry, it must be tough and I suspect long term, will get even tougher.

[Bugsmasha]

Wow, EWL you have certainly got your knickers in a knot. Here are some facts about VB that you may be interested in. Last Friday there was some very ordinary weather in Melbourne and Sydney with Fog. As a result there were significant delays across the country. My example relates to Sydney only. But due to Fog and the an aircraft going Tech, there was chaos in Sydney with some very annoyed pax. As a result the airport manager informed me that on Friday VB put 200+ passengers in accomodation gave EVERY disrupted passenger a free flight and put some pax on QF flights at huge expense. So I guess this goes against everything you stand for in your previous post, and remember, this came stright from the SY Airport managers mouth. It cost us HEAPS.
Another incorrect point you made was "Australia doesnt need Euro cattle carriers", well I hate to tell you, Not only did OZ NEED them, they wanted them, as indicated by us carrying our 10 millionth passenger recently.
Also, what were you implying by you comment "multi million dollar airoplane with a 50 cent flight deck ?". Sounds to me like youre a frustrated jealous pilot who could never crack it in the big time.
Why not tell us where your resentment stems from, because I think a previous post hit the nail on the head with the comment about your lost commission.:{

[stratoblaster]

Dont mean to pull you of your high horse go_dj but Virgin is nothing like Southwest.

To start with Southwest recognise the worth of their pilots and pay them accordingly. A typical Southwest Captain will retire a millionare thanks to the stock options that form part of his/her package.

I guess that you are right about progress though, and it seems that in Australia, this so called progress of yours mandates that pilots sit in 50 cent cockpits.

Virgin is for kiddies that want to go zoom in wittle pwanes up in the big blue sky. Grown ups work for real airlines that pay them what they are worth!!

Bugsmasha:
Virgin? bigtime? Get serious!

;)

[thumpa]

EWL

quote Time to stand back and have a good look at yourselves and what you are being fed by management as DJ is a million dollar aeroplane with a 50 cent flight deck.

EWL what the hell does this mean

quote It reinforces a view I have had from the beginning, that Virgin Blue is not a real airline, just a rich mans toy driven by excellent marketing and very willing and eager wide eyed staff. Time o grow up I feel. Australia does not need Euro cattle carriers.


EWL maybe a new name would be in order or go find some other forum to vent your frustration out on.

I thought PPRUNE was for aviation professionals

[Eastwest Loco]

I knew I had opened a can of worms here, and it was intended.

This little black dack worked for a very good low cost airline too, but they behaved like an airline, and accommodated passengers on alternate carriers whatever the cost if an aeroplane shat itself.

As to not selling DJ, you will find we get 7% commission with 3% overide after flown on their services so that is obviously not a factor and even though we have no services out of the local airports, sell around $10,000 a month and have moved several substantial groups on their services. Another $8000.00 group is booked for November.

What makes it hard for travel planners and the public is that you cannot rely on being in a certain place at close to a certain time as there is no protection mechanism in place to ensure it. Being offered travel 24 hours later does not cut it. We are not a Flight Centre (here's your ticket - sod off!) but make ourselves available to clients if there is a problem. That is wy they come back to us.

Sure, there is no guarantee with any carrier at high load times, but the old rule was accommodate psgrs on any available carrier through a FIM on agreement made between the carriers. This was generally done at ticketed value although at times full Y had to be - and was paid. Simple customer service.

go_dj Would you kindly enlighten me as to my last shot at DJ? This sort of info should be taken on board rather than scoffed at as it all relates to retention of customers, and as for a cut price carrier in about 50% of cases DJ is within $20.00 of QF on the low side or actually dearer, so compare apples with apples.

Snowballs - I hope you are not including the TMW diversion as a stuff up, but QF are far from perfect I agree. Travel is not and never has been a high margin industry - commissions range from 5 to 14% (with overides) and in my experience have never been higher than that.

Bugsmasha - If DJ did accommodate psgrs on QF ex SYD during WX and U/S problems, then why not in this case? I had the seats protected for the psgr but got a "We don't do that" response. Read above. I am pulling about 9.7% on DJ and generally it goes fine. I perceive the problem as a lack of old heads and experience to draw upon. My Travel Agency is doing extremely well on mostly international corporate business, and I do not appreciate losing 2 hours trying to overcome the ineptitude of some former car detailer at Aerocrap CBR and the policies of a domestic airline to try and get a passenger to his destination.

Thumpa - if you do not like the thread of a post, ignore it - simple isn't it. DJ has the potential to carry 50% of the market domestically, ut need to look at basic operaional requirements. Maybe that may have some impact on aviation professionals?

It does take a lot for me to get off my bike, much less kick it over as well, but this one has done it nicely. Hopefully this will get to DJ management and some things will be at least reviewed.


Best all

EWL

[HotDog]

Not a day passes without someone knocking Richard Branson or Virgin Blue. What is it with you guys? Why don't you just leave it alone? Good luck to them, they've proved all the soothsayers wrong. Remember when they first started? All the experts gave them 6 months at the most. Another Compass they said. At least now that 6 months has been extended to 5 years, according to crocodile redundee;Enjoy the perks while you can VB people, within 5 years all will be gone - the scenario is being set a la AN collapse. Don't concern yourselves with SARS, there is a far worse virus epidemic right here in our midst. It's called cut down the tall poppies. Talk about whingeing poms, like in cricket, couldn't touch the aussies if they tried!

[737opsguy]

EWL,

Have you actually reported this to the airline. The last time I emailed them with a complaint they rang me back in a couple of days and cleared it up. Ended up someone made a mistake and they apologised.

[Eastwest Loco]

Hot Dog

Do you not consider there may actually be a gap in service standards here that needs addressing?

All very well to leap on the RB Bandwagon, but if something is substandard would it not be a good idea to look at improving it?

It costs 25% less to retain a customer than to find a new one.

EWL

737opsguy.

I did make numerous phone calls to Sales and res, but that is something I should have done and now will.

I will go through Mary Tassone in groups to get the right path. She is a dream to deal with and nothing is too much trouble for her.

Thanks for correcting the brain fade.

Regards

EWL

[Aussierotor]

Standards ,conditions,price----its up to what people want.
Everyone is fooled by Virgins cheap prices,but unless you a very lucky person at the right time theres not much difference.
Inconvenience was my biggest concern.As Virgin grow it may be better ,but from perth to cairns a while ago you had stops here and there(far enough),but many hours wait or not arriving until midnight and leaving 6+ hours later.Its a bit like driving over town when petrol is 2 cents cheaper.
To plan ahead for a holiday or travel isnt much difference---in Nov ,Perth Brisbane return is $40 cheaper on Virgin.
For me i hit Perth on Qantas airlink,so im not going to stuff around getting bags and going next door ,plus probably wait umpteen hours ,when i can just go and have a Crowny in the Qantas lounge.
But to be fair ,Virgin has got a lot of people flying especially those on no time frame and can pull an el-cheapo fare to go and visit the relies etc.
But the competition keeps it cheaper hopefully.
No more cheap fares in NW WA since Ansett went kaput

[Eastwest Loco]

Well butter me on both sides, and call me Martha!!

I have just been contacted by a very nice gentleman frorm DJ who advised me that the incident mentioned is indeed under review as to procedures and outcomes. The PPruNe insertion seemed to do the job.

This is a very pleasing thing in itself, as noone from the Rat has ever bothered to do this, let alone on a Saturday evening.

It would appear a major breakdown in communication and several other factors came into play in this fiasco, and I am only too willing to give them the benefit of the doubt as Virgin Blue obviously does not wish to project the image that Friday 23 May ex CBR did.

10 points and an elephant stamp!!

For those of you that leapt to the defence of your airline, well done - BUT - ensure you know what suit is trumps before you play your hand. Not one of us, let alone any airline is automatically in the right on all occasions. Humans carry no warranty.

DJ has years to go to build the culture that will make it truly great, but with people like the guy that requested I call him, effort and love for one's airline will more than fill the gap in the interim.

The comment stands though. It was an amateur effort all round. no airline is perfect, but if nobody tells you its broke, then you cannot fix it can you?

Feeling much happier with life here too.

Best all

EWL

No matter how good you get peoples, I still cannot get warm and fuzzy about RB - Sorry - just something in the dead zone that waves flags at me, but let us give him his due. What a brilliant businessman. Good luck to him.

[Eastwest Loco]

Probably not kym, but I seem to be tolerated here.

I do feel it is pertinent that aircrew get a glimpse of what is happening down he back, and things that affect their loads and future viability.

If told to pull my head in by Woomera or Danny I will most certainly do so.

Best regards

EWL

[BLO MOI]

Perhaps the old adage, 'You Get What You Pay For' applies to both Passengers and Staff at Virgin Blue........
Next..

[blueloo]

I saw half a virgin 737 flying around today....................don't ask me which half tho.... .

[Eastwest Loco]

BLO -

That is a fair call, but when you can actually pay more to fly DJ rather than QF on certain days and port pairs, does that call not become invalid?

EWL

[Dogimed]

Gotta admit, recently flew Virgin, small spaces between the seats, no food or drinks (nor did I pay for it in my ticket), great staff, bad weather...

I think at all times they acted professionally and patiently.

Well done..

[mauswara]

Aussie Rotor "Everyone is fooled by Virgins cheap prices----" Let's do a quick survey. 1 Adult, 1 Way (on the net, of course!) 1 month from now. Early/late evening flight.(assuming a day's business,a few beers & a feed before heading off to the airport.) ML-BN: VB $139.00 QF $143.31 CB-BN: " $ 129.00 " $137.81(via SY) (NB. VB via SY $185.00) CS-BN: " $209.00 " $165.57 DN-BN: " $250.00 " $192.79 PH-BN: " $370.00 " $264.84 Total for VB: $1097.00 Total for QF: $904.32 !!!!!!! The VB "smoke & mirrors" is working. Cheers Maus

[BLO MOI]

I guess the Qn is EWL why fly VJ at all then??,
I know i'd prefer you on the White Rat

[Eastwest Loco]

Now there is a measured and condisered approach to a problem that has now been taken on board by DJ and is being looked at.

If it is broke, and nobody tells you BLO, then how in hell does one fix it.

EWL

[topend3]

EWL,

the incidents you are referring to were not isolated on that day or in that week, and as a result of poor wx and other problems such as coffs being unavailable due runway problems, dj found itself a couple of a/c short i believe and with some pax stranded and naturally upset.

if you were to read virgin blue's terms and conditions you would realise that the airline will try to get the pax to the destination on time but can not guarantee this due to unforeseen circumstances eg poor wx, tech problems etc.

in these cases the airline does it's best to get the passenger to the destination as close to on schedule as possible and can do this by another form of transport even. i am sure you are aware of all this.

up here in darwin we i have heard of two instances where the a/c has gone u/s and pax have been fully accomodated, given a credit shell for the cost of the fare and flown to their destination asap, usually the following day.

dj, like all airlines, cop their fair share of flak when things go wrong, and for staff in the aviation industry in any airline, it is a constant learning experience when dealing with how to handle unexpected delays and empathising with stranded pax.

i think when referring to dj being half an airline you are quite mistaken, it seems that dj's service levels are consistently higher than those of qf's who in fact are retraining their staff as we speak in how to serve people better. with 30% of the domestic market and climbing dj are doing many things right, they offer a value for money alternative and force qantas to deliver cheap airfares. flying in oz has never been more affordable than now, and we can thank virgin for this. the staff are always smiling, customer-focussed and friendly and nothing is too much trouble, a contrast to some of the nightmarish "service" stories i have heard of from qf.

virgin are here to stay ewl, so instead of highlighting the bad stories you should get people's opinions and hear of some of the good ones too, there are many people who will fly virgin over qf, and one of the big reasons for this is SERVICE!

[Capt Claret]

It seems to me that many are reacting to the tone of EWLs initial post, rather than the point of it.

My impression is that when writing the post, EWL was a tad p!ssed. However if one sifts the facts, it seems that his post was not just a dump on VB for the sake of it, and has probably done some good.

In the good ol' days at TatAAs, if the aeroplane went t!ts up, then as EWL said the opposition was uses as neccessary to move the pax. This sort of thing happened even into the 90's when flying Pterodactyls.

As I read EWLs post, the problem is that when questioned VB said we don't do that, and their system wasn't accurate; but when management found out later, they said "we do do that".

So why the agro? :\

[Eastwest Loco]

topend

I have a copy of the DJ passenger handling guidelines now in my office, and yes they fit what I understand to be standard guidlines for psgr accommodation due to WX, U/S A/C Airport problems etc.

It would have been great if they had been adhered to in this case as had been done on a similar previous situation in SYD.

I had been proactive and protected a seat on QF, and was told "we dont do that". Hey - where is the problem?? I was quick enough to grab alternate accommodation and this was rejected out of hand.

The terms of passenger service decree otherwise. Instead of immediately leaping to the defense of DJ, please read the post carefully as they were clearly if at the time unknowingly in breach of their own document.

I have no doubt DJ is here for the long run, and this was proved by the fact I was contacted after hours and on a weekend by a gentleman from DJ who gave me a path to follow up on this that had not been presented by several "Team Leaders" in res and sales.

There is hope indeed.

Would you rather dead end problems like this just be ignored and the mud stick to the Airline concerned, whether it be DJ, the Rat, Alliance, Rex whowever, or have it aired so a result can be gianed for the future, and a resolution satisfactory to agrieved parties?

Friday's effort was amateur in the extreme, sure it was under trying circumstances, but when the Airline was presented with a resolution within it's passenger handling guidelines and rejected it out of hand, I lost my happy thoughts. Hence the post as my office is far too busy to lose unwanted hours trying to put out a bushfire.

If you cannot first read the full content of posts, and then respond with reason, which was done by one DJ staff member, than I would suggest that you would do better not making any comment at all as it just creates more anti-airline feeling.

We are now on track to a resolution - post event though it may be.

Any Airline's staff or contractors who cannot do anything but berate someone with a genuine gripe about sub standard performance need to take a good hard look at themselves as they are doing more damage than good to their airline.

Topend, I HIGHLIGHTED this event for one reason and one reason only - SERVICE, and more to the point POOR SERVICE.

Learn from it.

EWL

[loungelizard]

Ahh, Stratoblaster,

Let's have a closer look at your comment -

"Virgin is for kiddies that want to go zoom in wittle pwanes up in the big blue sky. Grown ups work for real airlines"

MMMM, now if you have done a little homework you would find that over 50% of VB Captains, possibly even more, have flown internationally operating wide body A/C longer that you have probably been alive. They are the "kiddies" that had the balls and got out of their box lifestyle years ago and actually went and did what amateurs like you only dream about. A time then comes after one has actually "been there and done that" that you come home and take a cushy little job flying a 737 based in the Sunshine State, mortgage paid off, pay cash for two or more cars, and the "pitiful" amount of money they earn as some have said, is actually used for drinking money. They then go to work to fill in the time and laugh at all the tossers in their white rat uniforms admiring themselves on what their great achievment in aviation is, and you have the gall to call these people "kiddies". Unless you have achieved the same, then grow up my dear boy and go and get yourself a real job with a "real airline" flying to many other countries operating various wide and narrow body aircraft and then come home and tell us all what a bloody hero you are.

[topend3]

fair enough EWL, i am big enough to admit i do agree with some of your points and am glad your issue with the company is being resolved.

from my experience, i believe reprotection is only used in extreme circumstances, normal procedure is for pax to be given a credit shell and flown to their destination asap.

as i said before, all airlines have experiences that happen from time to time that could be handled better, main thing is that processes and learnign points are communicated to staff to ensure things are done a better or different way in the future.

cheers

[Eastwest Loco]

Thanks topend.

Reprotection was in this case required, and by one means or another it was done by us.

Thank you for taking the time to re-read. I appreciate that.

No axe to grind here with DJ, as we all make blues and if ya dont know its broke etc. Like I said - offered as a viable choice not a second-string alternative.

It was not helped by the day being complicated by MIAT Mongolian and another Chinese Mainland carrier. Last thing I needed was Oz #2 exhibiting what seemed to be the same service level. Otherwise has since been proved to be the case.

There is a steep learning curve ahead for DJ, and this is just part of it.

I save total disdain (bordering on hate) for the carriers listed above. There is a very important place in our industry for the little red aeroplane, and through experience, the service will be even better.

I will advise further on the outcome of the contact made.

Best regards

EWL

Ron Knight

[Sperm Bank]

L Lizard, you took the words right out of my mouth. The blasters comments at best can be construed as DUMB!

[sirjfp]

great post lounge lizard.

[EPIRB]

Longelizard, that's a bit unfair calling ALL the QF pilots tossers.

[Eastwest Loco]

Well good people, a result.

A very nice lady from DJ Customer Relations called me today, and the extra expenditure to get the psgr home has been credited to the "booking shell" for use at a later date.

I am very pleased at the outcome and how simple the procedure was. An ordinary effort that will no doubt be learned from has had a saisfactory conclusion. Well done DJ.

The learning curve is still there, but good people and good reactions to such an event makes sure that the gradient of the curve is fast decreasing.

I can (and rarely do) throw brick, but will also throw bouqets.

One can ony say that an employee like 737opsguy is right at the core of the part of an Airline that makes the difference. BLO MOI - take heed. Instead of slagging off at one who dared to complain, someone actually went to the core of the problem and arranged a path to have it fixed.

A little more proactive than telling someone they would rather have them on someone elses aeroplane. Same goes for you Kym. How dare a non operational person within the industry make a criticism? If you cannot spot a problem and react in an appropriate manner then one must be simply a life support system for genitalia.

How much do QF pay you two to work for DJ?

Best all and well done DJ and in particular Opsguy.

EWL:ok:

[loungelizard]

EPIRD,

Yes, you do have a point there. Not ALL are tossers but a bl##dy great many are eh.!!!!!!

Lizard

[EPIRB]

Naah loungie. It's only a very small minority but unfortunately it reflects on everyone else. Most of the guys are really good blokes.

[Master of the House]

Eastwest Loco - you will like this one, on descent into OOL the other day, "Ladies and Gentlemen, to help us with tight turnaround times could you please clear all rubbish out of the seat pocket, could you also please rearrange the pocket so that the safety card is at the front facing the correct way with the magazine behind it facing upwards". Nice one VB, would you like me to cross my seat belt as well, how about I clean the toilet on my way out!

[50 Cal]

Well I hope that's not now policy Master as it would p*ss alot of people off!!!...Some of the girls go a little overboard.........

50 Cal

[Kaptin M]

So Moth did you help them out?
Or did you sit there (with nothing else to do anyway) and think, "Na, #*@! you!".

The cabin crew still have to go through and check EACH and EVERY seat anyway - just a little thoughtfulness makes THEIR job that much easier, allows boarding to commence earlier on the next flight, and helps keep costs down.
Which was probably the reason WHY you were flying with them.

I must admit, in that respect the Japanese are very considerate when travelling in a group, as the group leader will usually get up at the end of the flight and ask his charges to carry all of their rubbish to the front of the aircraft, and deposit it in large plastic bags supplied by the F/A's.

Why would cleaning up after oneself tend to "p!55 a lot of people off" cal? Only if they were accustomed to living like pigs! http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/aircraft/aniflypig3.gif

[topend3]

I personally haven't heard this before on dj butcouldn't agree more with you kaptin, if 5 mins cleaning time is saved that's 5 mins less on the ground, higher a/c utilisation leads to greater revenues and more on-time departures.

most dj ports have turnarounds done in the 30 mins or thereabouts bracket so it makes all the difference if the cabin is all ready to go.

then again, we are all aviation minded and understand the importance of all this and the challenge of short turnarounds, your average pax doesn't and might get a bit pissed off if you start asking them to help clean the cabin...

[amos2]

Aw!...C'mon guys...what is this nonsense!

The crew on descent ask the SLF to clean the cabin...and you see nothing wrong with this!

Please, please, please...tell me you're joking!

If you don't you are a sad, sorry, pathetic, stupid bunch of complete and absolute idiots!

What on earth is going on here!!??

[stratoblaster]

Couldn't agree with you more Amos!

[topend3]

rearranging seat pockets aint cleaning the cabin!

[amos2]

Congratulations Topend 3...

You meet the requirements of the second to last line of my post above!

...and you've been drinking too much saki, Charlie!

[Kaptin M]

C'mon Amos.
Both you and I know that neither Virgin Blue, nor any other low cost airline - regardless of where in the world they operate - is gunna employ cleaning staff again.
The precedent has been set.

The hard,cold facts are (that) there are heaps of applicants who will do the job willingly, for the same price.

Of ALL the regulars here, Amos, you can appreciate that - with patience - the wheel will turn full circle.

The willow bends with the strong wind - the oak breaks.

...and tidying up after oneself, does NOT constitute "cleaning the cabin".
The general cleaning up is still left to the crew.
Akin to how pilots leave the flight deck for the next crew! :ok:

[Johhny Utah]

Gee, I guess the Virgin ads really ARE true - it seems you don't get Virgin Blue service (like this report)everywhere...!:)

Kap M - I can see what you're getting at - the only difference is that it is part of the crews job to tidy up after themselves, and as such they get paid whilst doing it. I can hardly see how tidying up the cabin should be asked of someone who was paying for the privilege of travelling from A to B.

Then again, we should probably stop pointing these things out. I'm expecting the usual reply that it doesn't what anyone else thinks, because Virgin is such a fun/cool/relaxed place to work blah blah blah...:bored:

[permFO]

So Kaptin M you are quite happy with the concept of pilots helping out in the cabin cleaning seat pockets and tidying seat belts? I think you miss the point between expecting "guests" to tidy up after themselves and cabin crew actually using the PA to ask them to clean the seat as it would make it easier for them. I also don't understand your point about the wheel turning. The low cost airline is here to stay. So as you say they will never employ dedicated cleaning staff and will expect that the flight staff i.e. cabin and tech crew will do the tidying up.

[Kaptin M]

I wouldn't say that I'm "happy"with the concept of pilots helping out in the cabin cleaning seat pockets and tidying seat belts But it is a fait accompli in the "low cost" airline where I work.
99.9% (not an accurate figure, but a guesstimate) the Cabin Crew are able to handle the lot without other assistance - however, once in a while for many and varied reasons eg, a high number of non-ambulatorys, max pax load both ways, the crew wanting to get back for a hot date!! (the MOST important one), everybody...including the Ground Engineers and check-in staff, will help out.
If the flight is delayed, it's the girls who get the kick in the butt because the system has been in place for almost 4 years now.

I think you miss the point between expecting "guests" to tidy up after themselves.... Do "guests" have the right to come on to an aircraft, make a mess, and expect to have it cleaned up for them? This comes down to common courtesy and self pride, I believe. I further believe that MOST people travelling on public transport make the effort to maintain tidy personal space, for the benefit of everyone.
Who wants to sit next to a pig?

.....and cabin crew actually using the PA to ask them to clean the seat as it would make it easier for them. Perhaps on THAT particular flight there was a higher number of "grubs" than is usual.
Possibly the ensuing flight was pushing slot times, and the Captain may have requested the F/A's to try to speed up the turnaround time.
In any case, it is not the norm, and as such, the reason for this thread. It was an extra-ordinary request.

I also don't understand your point about the wheel turning. "Both you and I know that neither Virgin Blue, nor any other low cost airline - regardless of where in the world they operate - is gunna employ cleaning staff again." (please understand the ambiguity of my sentence). Without a doubt, when professional cleaning staff are employed, the cabin cleanliness is undoubtedly of a noticeably higher standard, the Cabin Crew have far more time to prepare for the next lot of "guests", and the chances of the flight getting out on sked are enhanced. These are just a few of the reasons I believe that airlines need a dedicated cleaning staff - be they the airlines own employees, or a contracted company - and thus I feel that to operate more efficiently, airlines will find the need for cleaners.
Especially if a slot time or curfew is missed.

[amos2]

You lot can't surely believe all this nonsense you're prattling on about?!

Do you clean the hotel room after an overnight? Not leave it tidy but clean it?

Of course not!...we're in fruitloop land here!

[fruitloop]

I rezembal that remark !!:D :D

[Kaptin M]

Okay Amos, let's use a hotel room as an example.

You have a bit of a night out with your crew, and end up back in YOUR room.
A can or two (of XXXX) ends up all over the desk....the usual (now emptied) packets of snacks have missed the garbage bin, and are lying, crimpled around it....someone (NOT you!!) had too much to drink, and missed the big white telephone - but managed to spray it with lumpy carrots....you woke up early with your bowels a little looser than the norm.

Are you gonna tell me that you leave the room like that, when you check out?
I would sincerely doubt it!
Pride would dictate otherwise.

The pax are NOT being asked to "clean the CABIN" - only to leave their own "personal space" as they found it.

We live in a civilised society ~?@well MOST of us tend to THINK we do ~ and to my mind, that means taking responsibility for the area that you occupy.

I`d be interested in running a poll on this one.

[permFO]

Kaptin you are still contradicting yourself. You say that the low cost operators will have to employ cleaning staff but you also say that they never will employ cleaning staff. I think there is always an expectation that people will leave their seat tidy thats what my Mum called manners but if they don't then the crew have to do it.
To use the hotel analogy how would you feel if when you checked out the young person at reception said "Have you tidied your room?".

[dingo084]

Methinks the answer is NO.

However given time (to mature in an organisational sense) yes, it may eventually become half an airline.

In the mean time, they are just nibbling around the edges of the airline game.

ding:ok:

[HGW]

Gee, 40% of the domestic market is a pretty decent sized nibble.
This figure can be verified by any QF dept.

One day they will grow up to be a big airline, maybe when the international flights start, or when Virgin Atlantic fly in, or when Rex tie up with DJ.
Watch this space. July is the start. One of three things are about to happen.

[jakethemuss]

40%

40%

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahah!

I am a QF department, ask me.


I'm a little aeroplane now, now!!!!!!

[FullScale]

Happy, happy, joy, joy,
another day of VB bashing. Its such a cruel world. Whinge, whinge, whinge.

Its all good and well for some of the QF folks to offer a "helping hand" to the AN staff who lost jobs ( great publicity ) but when these talented people actually gain employment (lots with DJ) and can no longer be patronised by the heros then they become "kids"???
Go figure.

We all have jobs, most of us have 2 arms and 2 legs and we live in a great country! Grow up.

Incidently if "low cost" is such an aweful thing.... Shall we talk about "Australian Airlines" I hear Australian is doing famously; not bad considering the cutbacks in other parts of the rat. Hmm. Just quietly I think the white and Ochre scheme is something we will all be seeing a lot more of.

[Sperm Bank]

Amos you are indeed in fruitloop land mate. Your second last line on the previous page sums you up to a tee! Your mind numbing neanderthal thought process (or lack there of) are bereft of anything resembling intellectual capacity of an adult. You and many of the other morons in here need to wake up and face reality. Welcome to the 21st century and all the pleasantries associated with it. Competition, cheap air fares, brand new a/c, a new attitude, a zest for getting the job done, smiling faces just to mention a few. Yep things are pretty crappy aren't they Amos? I mean we would all prefer the anal retentive no service garbage from days gone by.

Yeah bring back the high air fares, bring back the lack of service, bring back the inefficient past practices; and you have the audacity to call people idiots mate! There are only a few and they are the ones who consistantly deride Virgin no matter what they do. You continue grovelling in your little squalor of self importance old man. The rest of us will get on with our life enjoying the fruits of a modern forward thinking airline. Someone was laughing at 40% market share. This time last year they were laughing at 15%. Short memories hey lads?

I feel very sorry for people such as you and your ilk. Very very sad indeed!

[embraer110120]

I think sperm bank just closed this topic,couldn't have put it better myself!!

Can't argue with the facts:ok:

[Kaptin M]

To use the hotel analogy how would you feel if when you checked out the young person at reception said "Have you tidied your room?".
Ever hired a rental car, permFO - if you have, you will have noticed one of the conditions of the agreement states that cars that are returned and requiring extra cleaning will incur added charges.

"I think there is always an expectation that people will leave their seat tidy thats what my Mum called manners but if they don't then.."...then they are not acting as responsible individuals.
Why would responsible people DELIBERATELY leave a mess behind in a public area - especially in such an enclosed space - and one that they KNOW is going to be occupied by another person shortly after they vacate.

I don't understand your logic in trying to defend sloth, permFO :confused:
Maybe too long spent back in the "mother country"?

"Kaptin you are still contradicting yourself. You say that the low cost operators will have to employ cleaning staff but you also say that they never will employ cleaning staff." No, I`m not (contradicting myself), permFO. Look up the meaning of the word "ambiguous" and use that wrt to my sentence. ;)

[cnsnz]

Well said spermbank but as you know it will not be long before someone from the rat will find something else to have a go at VB about.
They must be getting worried like you say market share has grown 25% in the past year and they believe your something to be laughed at

[amos2]

Don't know what "swallor" means SB but considering your moniker and profile didn't bother looking it up!

You consider yourself representative of the new breed? God help us!

...oh! and by the way...my posts were actually send ups! You couldn't pick that?

...perhaps you take yourself a little too seriously, would you think?