View Full Version : SNA Take off
KATLPAX
22nd May 2003, 09:47
Departing out of SNA (Orange County, Irvine California) on Alaska 737-700? the pilot announced an 'unusual' FAA approved departure for noise abatement. Best I can describe it is high power with brakes on at end of runway, Release, shoot down it seemed a few feet and we launched up at a good angle, got to what I think was 2000' leveled off and reduced power.
Can someone give me some idea of what flaps would have been used, height, v1 speed etc? Is this common elsewhere? Just curious as to what the pros and cons of such a departure? More fuel burn? More engine wear? It seems that getting up to that initial level off height was quick, comfortable, and the quicker you get up there the better off you are. I will be flying in and out starting in July quite frequently...just curious as what to expect.
CattlePax/KATLPax
Notso Fantastic
22nd May 2003, 18:32
Full power, steep climb, moderate/high flap setting. Keep speed back to keep climb steep. 2000' nose down retract flap, hopefully having kept stronger noise footprint within airport boundary as much as possible. Cons- not doing reduced power take off increases engine wear, steeper uncomfortable body angle makes cabin movement by crew difficult (to stop sliding down aisle on backside), and I believe, slows progress of flight.
I fly to SNA. Here is our procedure B737-500, -300, -700:
RWY 19R; Captain takeoff. Flaps 5, bleeds off, Max power. Normal V speeds. There is a cut-back N1 setting depending on weight and temp, about 75-78%.
Brakes are held and power is run up to cut-back N1. First Officer notes where throttle position is on quadrant. Brakes are released full t/o power is set. Normal rotation until mains come off ground call for gear up and immediately go to 20 to 22 degrees nose up to maintain V2+20. At 1000' above field elevation power is abruptly pulled back to cut-back N1 nose will drop about 5 degrees. At 1.0 DME off ILS turn to heading 175 (20 degree left turn) and climb to 3000' MSL. At 3000' lower nose to 500-1000 FPM climb and select flaps 1. 190 KIAS flaps up (-700 MASI speeds) About this time a turn to 200 degrees for the SID. At 6.0 DME ILS full climb power and reset bleeds.
There are noise monitors that record each departure and are average for each airline for the quarter. Just off the end of the runway is Newport Beach and Balboa Island, the most expensive land in this area.
There is a noise monitor on the approach of RWY 19R about 5 miles out. For 7 or 8 years we have been flying out of SNA and sometimes we were getting fined by the airport for landing before the curfew ended Sunday mornings at 0800. One time I was going to be early and slowed on the descent and approach gave us a 360 turn over Catalina Island so we would not be early. On final I asked the tower for a time check and confirmed that we would be landing at or after 0800.
A few weeks later we had a crew land at or after 0800 and we were fined. The chief pilots talked with the airport officials and said you know that you can not set off the noise monitor on final until after 0800 Sunday.
Doh!
West Coast
23rd May 2003, 12:43
That departure is one more reason they need to convert the former Marine Corps air station at El Toro to a civilian airport. 5700 ft of runway mixed in with the GA is another.
FormerFlyer
23rd May 2003, 16:37
Was a pax with AA a good dozen or so years ago into and out of SNA on a 75 - what a ride!
Just like a coaster on departure with great views of the coast. Excellent explanation given by the flight deck at the time so that no one was worried why the engines were pulled back so much after depart.
cheers ;)
FF
That departure is one more reason they need to convert the former Marine Corps air station at El Toro to a civilian airport. 5700 ft of runway mixed in with the GA is another.
Even if they started flying commercial flights out of El Toro (which is unlikely to happen for many reasons) there would be the same noise abatement procedures as there are at SNA, for exactly the same reasons; people do not like airplane noise. Heck there radio controls planes are lucky they do not have any!
The solution to the problem is Long Beach, perfect little airport which with some work will fill the need.
Just one question, I fly GA aircraft out of SNA, what is your qualms about flying with us? I can understand you do not like out bombing runs on you as we depart from 19L and you taxi back, but from our perspective things seem to run quite smoothly. Are we just something else to worry about, that in a perfect world you would rather not be there?
Very similar to what was done with the old B707 straight pipe aircraft at a few very noise sensitive airports...accurate flying necessary.
West Coast
25th May 2003, 15:39
Iain
The possibility of a SNA type departure out of NZJ is unlikely and not required. Especially off the 7's or 34's. First, terrain clearance would not allow it and secondly and most important is demographics. The peope of backbay Newport have one hell of alot of money which equates to clout. Look at what they have implemented at SNA over the years, the departure is but one of them. Low artificial limits to annual pax count, one of the strictest noise abatement and curfew limits in the nation. It is possible to recieve a citation for busting a noise monitor just by being on final to 19R prior to curfew. Cota de Caza aside, the residents of south OC don't have the clout to match. I know, I grew up there.
As far as not wanting you at SNA, its just the opposite. I would prefer we were not there. One 5700 ft of runway is not much, especially for an abort prior to V1. This especially so if its wet or contaminated. Many carriers take large weight penalties which means we got to leave pax, bags, gas or any combo of these behind. This means lost revenue. The GA factor plays out also.
In the air carrier world we are bound by TCAS to one extent of another. The runways are so close together that the FAA had to provide an exemption for their use. Someone close in on base is sure to set off the box screaming at us. It doesnt know the plane is going for 19L. If we dont have the offender in sight, we must go missed. Perhaps the part you don't want to hear is the differing level of competence of GA. GA is a poor term as it covers anything that is not air carrier or mil. As it covers alot of aircraft, it also covers the spectrum of pilot competence. I have no problem mixing it up with a G5, but I do with a student pilot in a C152. That guy in the 152 may be flying that Gulfstream in a few years as a seasoned aviator, but as of now he is flying next to me. He can be on his initial solo flying next to a Boeing or Airbus. I just don't feel comfortable with that level of competence so close when the tolerances are already so tight (runway, airspace, disimilier traffic, etc) Its been awhile since I have reviewed part 61, but I believe the FAA has addressed this at certain class B airports by saying you must hold at least a private certificate to operate there.
Honestly tell me, would you prefer that student pilot be flying next to the air carrier that has your loved ones on it?
West Coast thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. I agree apart from Cota De Caza there is not the money there that there is over Newport, and thinking about it they could depart over the business part of Irvine. However people in OC sure do like to complain.....
I can understand your concern about flying out of the same airport as weekend warriors. I am sure we both would be happy not having the concerns the other brings (although the areil view of you guys flying is pretty neat!).
That departure is one more reason they need to convert the former Marine Corps air station at El Toro to a civilian airport. 5700 ft of runway mixed in with the GA is another.
Mission Viejo voted on El Toro last year. They do not want it to be an airport. This was the 3rd vote. First two were in favor of the airport.
It's a dead issue.
West Coast
27th May 2003, 15:06
Mission Viejo is but one town(or unincorporated area) and does not have the ability to green light nor stop any airport at El Toro. A county wide referendum and a vote by the Orange County board of supervisors is what will determine the future. I do agree however that it is a dead issue. A tremendous loss to aviation in SOCAL.