Swiss Pilots' Union Reps Sacked?

[pecs]

Is there any truth to the rumour that last Thursday SWISS sacked 4 out of 7 pilot union reps including the President, 2 Vice Presidents and Communications Spokesman? Sources are suggesting that the action of summary dismissal taken by the SWISS CEO and the new Chief of Ops was due to “actions and statements in public” by the "SWISS Pilots Association" causing damage to “company image and business”, for “misinformation”, and for compromising the “re-establishment of the trustworthiness of SWISS”.

Sacked for doing their elected job representing the interests of their pilot (ex-Crossair) members? It would appear just a tad over-the-top? Were there any similar casualties from the "Aeropers" (ex-Swissair) pilot reps?

[Aviatrix69]

Hi Pecs
they have not been sacked (yet), just been threatened with instant dismissal, exactly for the reasons you stated.

some people tend to get a bit nervous about the upcoming decisions by the legal courts... I don't think it's all being served as hot as it seems now.

Keep you posted

Av

[finalschecks]

This behaviour is both intimidating and illegal. It will only strengthen the support for the SPA.

How dumb can a manager be? Did he get his position as a CEO with a box of cereal or what?

[Few Cloudy]

Lads, Dose was a pilot at Crossair when Moritz sacked two Crossair Pilots' Union officials. One was later reinstated but that's where he (Dose) learned the treatment...

PS, Bets on Moritz coming back if Swiss bites the dust are now being taken. Some rich Basel interests there to support him...

PPS, One reason that the President isn't too popular is an attributed remark that "Swiss can go bust for all I care - I can have a job in engineering with my father's firm." and "It is important to win this case, even if it ruins Swiss."

Now I don't know if that rumour is true but if it is, I would suggest the guy isn't doing his fellow union members any good either...

[middlepath]

Most present managers including ceo are ex-crxair worthy to be in mainline swiss team where as ex- crxair pilots are not worthy to be in swiss, whats the problem? am I missing something here!

[Few Cloudy]

Come on Middlepath!

Ex LX pilots refused the chance to be paid more and integrate, when they held out for more seniority. That deal fell through completely and then the general financial situation got so bad, that the Swiss Express scheme came along.

What would have happened if the ex LX pilots had accepted last year's deal? Difficult to say but with redundancies coming along the junior guys would for sure have been first to go. Now it is just possible that ex SR pilots may be chopped first, on the grounds that they have been "adopted" by Crossair and that their SR seniority counts for nothing - a tenuous argument but it may gain favour at court.

The question about not being worthy is not applicable, as you see - it was a matter of choice by the pilots themselves. We have short memories sometimes.

[dr yes]

Thats as may be, Few Cloudy, but would managers on top of their game go to these lengths to stifle freedom of expression? Denying the right to strike would be illegal in any other country but Switzerland where incompetence and bombast are the yin and yang of airline management doggerel.


(translated by SWISS PILOTS, only German version is binding!!)
Basel, May 21st 2003
CCP CLA 2000
Art. 5: Obligation to keep industrial peace
Dear Gentlemen
We have received the letters by Dr. Stefan Suter addressed to Mr. André
Dosé dated May 15th and 16th 2003.
Therein you are claiming that the statements you have made and your
behaviour are covered by the freedom to express your opinion.
This is not correct. The freedom to express one’s opinion of the Board
members of SWISS PILOTS as well as every employee of SWISS is limited by
the absolute obligation to keep industrial peace, according clause 5 CCP
CLA 2000: „As long as this CLA is valid, industrial peace has to be kept. Any
offensive measures or precautions contravening the contract are to be
ruled out. Both parties are obliged to care for and maintain the image (of
SWISS) externally and internally in a positive manner”.
Additionally the freedom of the employee to express one’s opinion is
drastically limited by the duty of good will according industrial law (Clause
321a OR) towards his employer. As employees of SWISS, you, Mr. Bieli,
Lauber, Wirth and Gutknecht, have to refrain from doing anything, which
hinders SWISS from reaching their entrepreneurial targets according the
justice of the federal court.
A. Violation of the obligation to keep industrial peace and duty of
good will by the Board members of SWISS PILOTS (Letter by SWISS
dated May 15th 2003)
You have to refrain from engaging in any kind of activity due to
your obligation to keep industrial peace as well as your duty of
good will that might endanger the reputation or the
creditworthiness of SWISS. This duty is also applicable concerning
proven facts. Namely the following actions are effectively a
breach of your obligations and duties:
- False statements and statements damaging the interests of the
company regarding SWISS express
- Unlawful threats of strike
- Inadmissible invitations to your members to participate in
(strike)actions
- Wrongful information in your regular „Newsletter“ with which
you are trying to incite the Pilots of OC1 to follow you into
strike.
There actions would be reason enough to serve you instant
dismissal according clause 337 OR. SWISS is therefore requesting
from you as responsible Board members of SWISS PILOTS
ASSOCIATION ultimatively once more to immediately fulfil your
obligations resulting from the CLA and your duty of good will
towards your employer. Otherwise it will not be feasible for SWISS
to continue the employment relationship with you. Once more we
are explicitly threatening you with instant dismissal in case of any
ongoing violation of your obligation to keep industrial peace or
duty of good will by further accusation harming the image or the
interests of the company or by any other illegal actions.
After you have made public in the media (Sonntags Zeitung
dated May 18th 2003) that SWISS was not in the position to dismiss
the Board of SWISS PILOTS we would like to remind you of clause
14.1 CCP CLA 200, which reserves the right to instantly dismiss the
members of the Board in the sense of clause 337 OR.
As a conclusion we would like to state that of course SWISS is not
forbidding any union work to the Board of SWISS PILOTS. SWISS is
only requesting as responsible members of the Board to meet their
contractual obligations resulting from the CLA as well as their duty
for good will according industrial law. This, as well as the threat of
instant dismissal if those important conditions are not met, is far
from coercion.
Unfortunately it is typical, that you are stating through your
representative, the (rightful) demand of SWISS to fulfil you duties
will hinder your union work. Your untenable attitude only confirms
the view of SWISS, that it is only acceptable for SWISS to continue
the employment relationship wit h you if you listen to reason and
fulfil your duties as an employee with immediate effect.
B. Violation of the obligation to keep industrial peace and duty of
good will by Mr David Bieli in particular (Letter by SWISS dated
May 15th 2003)
As already mentioned any kind of activity, which might endanger
the reputation or the creditworthiness of SWISS, has to be refrained
from due to your obligation to keep industrial peace as well as
your duty of good will. Therefore your wrong and interest -
damaging statements are a violation of there obligations and
duties, especially your assertions regarding the Embraer 170 and
195, the A340, the salaries and the vacation regulation. Of course
the coffin action, which has been co-organised and supported by
you, has been an extreme case of violation to your obligation to
keep industrial peace and your duty of good will. SWISS is referring
to the letter dated May 12th 2003 wherein it has reprimanded you
for these actions
After you, dear Mr. Bieli, have repeatedly on to the highest extent
violated your obligation to keep industrial peace and your duty of
good will, you would have been obliged to correct your
statements, which have been both false and harming the interests
of the company. SWISS is Stating, that you have not done so in the
time span intended. Therefore the corrections had to be done by
SWISS (Base Meetings regarding SWISS express in Zürich und Basel).
Your behaviour is no longer to be tolerated by SWISS as your
employer. Therefore we are threatening you once more with
instant dismissal (clause 337 OR) in case of further violation of your
obligation to keep industrial peace and your duty of good will
according industrial law.
C. Project-groups for (strike)actions
In your Newsletter dated May 12th 2003 you are supporting
(strike)actions (allegedly) coming from the base. You are stating
that all those actions are to be discussed with you and are
strongly suggesting “to all former Crossair Pilots to take part in the
actions planned by the Project -group”.
Based on this statement SWISS will hold you reliable for all (strike)
actions by Pilots from OC1, except if you are explicitly distancing
yourself from such illegal actions and fulfil your obligation to keep
industrial peace (clause 5 CCP CLA 2000) and your duty of
influence (clause 357a Paragraph 1 OR) by taking all the
necessary steps to prevent such an action from happening.
Swiss International Air Lines AG
André Dosé Manfred Brennwald

[twitchy]

Guys I always thought that the some of the union executives are protected by the Industrial / labour laws of the country from these kinda action by the high headed CEOs of an industry. I hope EU has better labour laws than we have in this part of the world.

I always thought that this kinda thing is only possible here in SQ. Here the management decide what has to be done and Union members have to accept it with a pinch of salt. Pilots union can slightly delay the action of the management but can not avoid it. Do you know here SQ management has decided to give these guys about 35 to 40% cut in the earnings of the cockpit crews due to SARS out break. The pilots' union can delay this action of the management by 2 to 3 weeks but it will have to accept it, otherwise same sacking is easily possible here in SQ.

Wish you all the best friends in SWISS in achieving what you want..............

[dr yes]

Hi Twitchy,

Sorry to hear things are a bit grim in Fortress Singapore, but the extent of the blatant union bashing and intimidation which continues unchallenged here in Switzerland is reaching ever more incredulous levels. It would be interesting to take these and other outrages including discrimination and racism before the European Court of Justice to determine the extent to which such brazen fear mongering and threats against democratically elected union officials and rank and file membership are tolerated under international law.

To all members of SWISS Flight Operations

SWISS Flight Operations Newsletter

Dear Colleagues

With this Newsletter we wish to address two topics: Freedom of Speech for Pilots working with SWISS and FEROP/Union Contribution

Freedom of Speech

You have read in the newspapers that the SWISS Management has harshly intervened with the board members of SWISS PILOTS and has reminded them of their duty not to damage the image of our company, not to make announcements regarding or threats with strike and not to disseminate false statements about the launching of SWISS express. In this context SWISS PILOTS has sent to its members copy of a letter from the SWISS Management to Messrs Bieli, Lauber, Wirth and Gutknecht dated May 15, 2003 reminding these gentlemen to adhere to Art. 5 of the CCP CLA (“GAV”), namely to their duty to maintain industrial peace (“Friedenspflicht”) and to help to build up a positive image for our company. The Management advised the four Board Members that their contracts will be terminated with immediate effect, if they continue to violate Art. 5 of the CCP CLA. The letter of May 15, 2003 is enclosed.

The members of SWISS PILOTS also received from their union copy of a letter sent by SWISS PILOTS’ counsel to the SWISS Management dated May 16, 2003 claiming freedom of speech. This letter is also enclosed. There is no doubt that the four above Board Members - as all SWISS pilots - enjoy freedom of speech, but there is certainly a limit when false factual statements are made, when intentionally the image of the company is jeopardised and when the threat of strike is uttered. To clarify matters, the Management sent to SWISS PILOTS on May 21, 2003 a reminder letter which is enclosed and which explains the balance to be kept between freedom of speech and “Friedenspflicht”.

Please be aware that all pilots working with SWISS are under the contractual duty to abstain from striking. If the Board of SWISS PILOTS (or some project groups formed by SWISS PILOTS) should continue to urge you to participate in a strike, this will result not only in the immediate dismissal of the Board Members, but also - should you personally participate - in the immediate termination of your contract (“fristlose Kündigung”).

The Management distributes this Newsletter to make clear to all pilots that going on strike is a severe violation of the “Friedenspflicht” which will not be tolerated by the Management and will result in immediate dismissal.

Thomas Brandt
Executive Vice-President Flight Operations

[twitchy]

Hi Dr Yes

Lets assume what Swiss management is saying that the Swiss pilots union executive are spreading a false propaganda about the airline that it will be appropriate for the management to counter the false propaganda with the factual information to the employees. Rather threatening the contrated pilots or their union reperesentatives clearly shows that the management is scared that the unions must be highlighting the management's wrong doings :ok: :ok: :ok:

Don't buckle down to this kind of threat guys, wish you all the best.

Twitchy

would you like to read the following article in local Singapore newspaper what kind of propaganda SIA management is doing against it's pilots and that too after giving them 22.5% pay-cut plus a threat of 20% of the time as No Pay Leave.

http://business-times.asia1.com.sg/sub/companies/story/0,4574,82273,00.html?

Doesn't one think that its reasonable for the SIA pilots' union asking that the SIA should retrench the pilots employed by another company and seconded to SIA to counter the pilots' union. More over the pilots are only asking the SIA management to honour the standing collective agreement signed just 2 years ago under threat. Or it means that their is no sanctity of the labour agreements in the eyes of the SIA and the labour laws of the Singapore government

[dr yes]

Incredible, Twitchy!

One day soon, when the shoe is on the other foot, I hope we all remember how shabbily we've all been treated. It amazes me that you guys accepted this SIA Mauritius malarkey....an obvious attempt to undermine your rights, and dilute the industrial muscle of SIA pilots! When you consider we put our necks on the line 5 times annually, I think they've got a damned cheek. Be careful, though, they're trying the same here by spinning off Swiss Express as a shell company to 'tame' the so-called regional fleet pilots. Sounds like SIA-M might be the same deal. Strength in unity, Twitchy....and be careful. Enough is enough!

Good Luck.

[middlepath]

Answer is simple,
if union has unity then management can not bully. Simply can not fire every one. Be aware of devide and rule tactics.

[124.8]

Splash out all the detail, washing out in the public looks good!!! If the management decided to appoint pilots from another bust airline above your seniority without conveying a proper selection and when terms come for redundency, firlow now does not mean : first in, last out! Who would accept that in another airline in Europe?? Or elsewhere?? I get the impression it can only happen in Switzerland, even though a court descision has been taken, there is no action!! The impression I get at Swiss International, is the management cannot even provide good communication. The higher salaries that was on offer, was merely another trick to oust the ex-Crossair pilots out, even though 16 percent was put forward, it was proved to be a meager 5 percent.....If management decided to get rid of pilots then, it would be moer easy to blast 500. Is this not another trick of trying to get rid of pilots, even the Swiss pilots assoc board members?
The brewing pot goes on, history could repeat itself again.
Keep your revs up fellows, the moon is shinin' tonight!!:yuk:

[Aviation Trainer too]

I think that in times of trouble the last thing the management needs is back stabbing by employees and feel that by supplying all the information to all individual employees the Swiss management is doing a great job. Remember these are the guys who are trying an impossible airline to work... Lets face it Switserland cannot sustain a large carrier but the politics wanted one so they bought one... The new management has an inpossible job because of the messed up integration of LX and SR crews..

Remember a small airline in Belgium called Sabena.. Things were not going to well but what pushed them over the top was the strike called for by the pilot unions... don't let this happen at Swiss because of some unions with the wrong priorities...

It is not nice but look in the real world and see all the lay offs etc, give the management a bit of flexibility in times like this or otherwise only Easyjet will be able to claim to be the new Flag carrier of Switserland!!!

[pecs]

Switzerland welcomes all including Easyjet!

“only Easyjet will be able to claim to be the new Flag carrier of Switzerland!!!”

And why not Aviation Trainer too? Let the market and paying passenger decide what size the Full Service Carrier share in and out of Switzerland should be, and what ever else is handled by the Lower Cost Carriers.

Yes “Aviation Trainer too” the resurrection of an airline industry in Switzerland encompassing various support industries and Zurich Unique Airport was important for the Swiss economy. The re-Nationalisation of this industry via Government bail-out money and its arm twisting of Swiss Corporates to pump in a few billion and expand Crossair into SWISS via the Phoenix Plan was flawed from the start. However this strategy to leave behind the many billions owed by Swissair was never a financial and economic construct. It was purely political and a power play by various interest groups.

“the Swiss management doing a great job” and “give management a bit of flexibility in times like this”

Oh please spare us the hype. I don’t quite understand how consciously, deliberately and unilaterally breaking working contracts, lying, deceiving and discriminating against your workforce let alone a policy of ethnic cleansing to rid SWISS of foreign pilots can be considered “doing a great job”. It is the same desperate argument that we often hear from incompetent and failing management the world over that: the end justifies always the means.

And what “bit of flexibility” should be offered to management “in times like this”? To continue on their immoral, unethical and illegal course? Yes by all means let them, but it will not be with impunity and without consequences. SWISS because of its size never had the luxury to ride out a stagnating economy, SARS and an Iraqi conflict. The Board of Directors and senior management are however totally responsible for the current predicament of SWISS. SWISS management could not cope with a more benign environment late 2001 to late 2002, so they will indeed struggle in today’s even tougher times.

“don’t let this happen at SWISS because some unions with the wrong priorities…" and "bacstabbing by employees"

Interesting argument because the 2 pilot unions: SWISS Pilots (ex-Crossair) and Aeropers (ex-Swissair) are both merely trying to protect their members from the big overdue chop. SWISS Pilots, as a last resort in the face of unconscionable management behaviour, have taken the legal course via the Swiss courts. Today it was announced that a Court suggested settlement via negotiation was rejected by SWISS management. Management and all Pilots now await the Court’s final ruling. Management have stated today pre-empting any ruling, that they will ignore any decision they don’t like. Which union has the wrong priority? Is it the union which is arguing for contract observance, legality, fairness and non-discrimination? “Last on, first off” is understood by players all around the world except in Switzerland by SWISS management and Aeropers. In their justification for this deliberate non-observance and contract violation SWISS management call it “benchmarking” and “World’s Best Airline Industry Practice”. This "Bullsh*t baffles Brains" approach is obviously not the best way to build trust especially when you then try to kick out those SWISS pilots who were there in the first place at Crossair and its new name SWISS, when the new guys from the collapsed Swissair were only employed last year in April 2002. This maybe what is meant by "supplying all the information". To date no hard figures, analysis or benchmarking regarding competition and costs has been provided to staff. In fact the decision to create "SWISS express" to spin off the ex-Crossair pilots into a regional subsidiary has been made pre Business Plan without proper analysis.

Swissair collapse, SWISS failure, maybe dear Switzerland third time lucky!? Let's see what Bain & Co come up with with the new Business Plan to be announced late in June. And “Bravo” to Easyjet, the other LCCs, and any other Operator who has a go in Switzerland.

[blue belly]

lets hope that the Swiss and Swiss Express formula will work!

[124.8]

PECS !!!

You know how to explain it exactly.

If you would know what a " Pro-Patria" medal was, I would give you more than that.

:ok:

[Aviatrix69]

For your info: The Union's reps have received their third threat for instant dismissal..... things do not seem to be so instant around here ;)

[error_401]

I agree with most comments on behaviour in labour conflicts.

One important thing most of the CCP People miss out is the fact that if the airline continues to burn money instead of generating profit this time next year ALL OF THEM are looking for new jobs.

Then - there will be peace of labour because like us (pilots graduated from the former Swissair Aviation School) they will find themselves looking for a career in aviation at any cost (or better wage) they can find. Or - work in other jobs (as I do) and earn their money (some of which I spend flying light twins).

No one I know associated with the outer rims of this company (SWISS) understands the tactics and strategy of CCP. It rather seems to us that still want to get something through that meanwhile has been passed for long by the market development of the last three months. But instead of ceasing fire and start to work hard to give SWISS a chance of survival they still try to get what they think belongs to them. Just - to pay a salary a company has to earn the money before...

So I suggest they'd better start to give in to some points and start to work as if SWISS was a new company. They all should forget about the old hatred between the two pilot corpses and start to work as professionals with all sacrifices the actual situation takes from all professionals, companies and normal people these days.


Times are bad - no sense to start a war, neither to complain about passed wrongs.



Graduate from Swissair Aviation School
CPL/IR (ATPL)
without a type rating!!!



P.S. Never forget that there are hundreds of HIGHLY QUALIFIED pilots still waiting for their initial type rating chance, able and willing to work under conditions even worse than those of CCP pilots...

[Wanula Dreaming]

Ehhh error_401 I understand that you are desperate for a job, but :

Never forget that there are hundreds of HIGHLY QUALIFIED pilots still waiting for their initial type rating chance, able and willing to work under conditions even worse than those of CCP pilots... Why don´t you blame Aeropers for not making any sacrifices to rescue Swiss. Remember, all the pilot corps problems started because those ´modest´ Aeropers pilots wanted a seperate contract and did not want to work for CCP salaries, conditions and seniority... ;)

According to your own logic, it should be crystal clear who has to make any sacrifices in order to save Swiss.

Good luck finding a job out there ! In case you find a job, I hope that it will be for ´better than CCP´ conditions and for a company with a ´better than Swiss´ management ! :ok:

[124.8]

Maybe some of you do not know ? A financial manager of Swiss was threatened and he had to depart out of his work. Why?? He pointed out that some Airbusses had to be grounded to make things work financially in the company, and Aeropers was not happy to have their pilots grounded, so guess what........????
It is not time for even managers to get a "bonus", which was the case here AND HR department explained why it was justified!!!!
When this ship sinks, blame the men who steer it like the Titanic, they think it is unsinkable.


:p :yuk:


"Why don´t you blame Aeropers for not making any sacrifices to rescue Swiss ?"

A nice German word to this : ekelhaft/ Disgusting!!!!

[error_401]

Wanula

Thanks for pointing that out. I probably forgot to stress that I do not agree with the behaviour of either pilot corpses. Just - the discussion was about the actual CCP behaviour.

Understandable that any group or individual tries to get the most out of the situation. Only drawback - you can get something out of something but only nothing out of nothing.

happy take-offs to all pilots

[Melprot Gun]

Hi error_401,

may I just correct you on two points: first, Swiss Pilots Association (former CCP) is not trying to get the most of the past/present situation. SPA is just trying to get its collective contract being respected, legally, without wanting anything more than what is actually included in the present collective contract. Basically, SPA is legally trying to oblige SWISS to respect the law. While AP (Aeropers, ex-Swissair pilots union) managed to oblige Swiss to behave illegaly with the mean of a strike's threat (illegal content of a collective labour agreement). We're talking here mainly about seniority issues, plus other 'unimportant' things like holidays.

Linked to that point, we could argue about this 'new company' you're talking about. Technically, it is incorrect since we all know (well, a few at least...) that SWISS INTERNATIONAL AIRLINES is the new name of CROSSAIR. So, no new airline. But in April 2002, when CROSSAIR had its name changed into SWISS, SPA, in a gesture of good will, proposed to AP a compromise about seniority: the zipper model. New company? Well not exactely, but all right, let's SHARE THE (huge) RISK: zipper from the bottom was requested by SPA. At that moment, AP and SWISS management stopped the dialogue and started their monologue. The only possibility left for SPA to have its rights respected was via a court. First case showed a clear discrimination towards ex-Crossair pilots, which has never been corrected. We're now waiting for the second court's decision about seniority which SWISS WILL HAVE TO COMPLY TO. If you find that scandalous, it is for sure because you, like many other people in that country, are not used at all to defend your working legal rights. It shocks the basic Swiss to see that even in our country it can be necessary to go quite far in order to have legal rights respected. Well, if SPA does not do that now, then it's a wide open door to any possible other discrimination in any other field in our (still) democratic country.

No economical reason(s) can have precedence over the law. You just have to make a business plan which suits to the existing collective working contract AND NOT THE OPPOSITE! Ex-Crossair pilots DID HAVE a valid contract when the initial business plan was made in 2001-2002. Ex-Swissair pilots not. But guess who is loosing his/her job first? Well, that will have to be corrected after the court's final decision in a few days.

Anyway: whatever decision taken by the court, SWISS won't see next spring, I'm afraid.

The only solution (dream): to split again, so that both entities (ex-Crossair - ex-Swissair) become totally independant from each other (since it's obvious they're unable to live together), in a form or another. And then, we will be eventually able to see which side is profitable in truth... Let's give chance at least for one part to survive instead of grounding the whole thing. No need to say that SWISS EXPRESS cannot be the solution as it is proposed now. We have to create two NEW companies. But I guess it's far too late.


Have a nice one

[Akro]

Very well spoken, MG!!

There's a new threat out from the COO, concerning probably most of the former crossair pilots.

The next days are going to be even more interesting (to say the least)! :uhoh: :ooh:

[finalschecks]

The next few days will decide what the short future of the SWISS-fiasco will look like.

- Industrial action, bringing the end closer...

or

- Employees going along with the "managment" and gradual decline into a new bankrupcy...

My guess is nr 1.

[error_401]

MC - thank you for the enlightenment. (No sarcasm in this!)

Your answer clarified some issues - and I'd like to point out that my opinion is based on what an outsider sees and hears about the discussions that make this picture.

Just - the impression to the public (I suggest the definition as: people not associated with SWISS or any inside information) is, that AP now has settled the work issue with SWISS with a contract with which obviously both parties may live whilst CCP ist recurring to the legal way.

Absolutely nothing against your point of view that we shall fight for our rights as workers. But as I said before. One can get something from something and as you too allude, lucky Switzerland if SWISS still exists next year. Getting paid what your work is worth may also be the main reason for so many pilots not flying at all. There is a lower limit in salary or other benefits!

I'd like to see as much of this company resurrect from this battle. Just make it a battle against the odds of the market and a battle for customers and market shares not one against each other for benefits that no one will ever get if things continue like this.

Good luck to all pilots

[MartinBaker]

I must admit to getting a little tired of all this one sided argumentation and an unwillingness to cope with reality. This is exactly why Swiss will go under soon.
A liitle bit of history perhaps;
Crossair worked all these years because people used it as a stepping stone to other airlines and put up with dreadful salaries and despotic conditions for short term hour-building careers.
When Crossairs boss Moritz Suter bit-off more than he could chew in the late eighties, Swissair bailed Crossair out by wet leasing agreements for regional lines. In the early nineties again MS got himself into trouble and Swissair this time bought approx 75% of the company. A strange 'marriage' ensued with Crossair doing its own thing in BSL and flying for SWR, callsigns and all, and using existing SWR structures such as sales organisation etc..
When Swissair went down it went down due to imcompetent management and criminal consulting and nothing else.
Crossair was bought out of the SAir group in the knick of time in a bit of an 'insider trading' way, but to imagine that it could have survived for more than 6 months alone is not realistic.
One has only to look at the structures, many types of different aircraft, innefficiency of the FDRs, the Base system where crews have more flt hrs Deadheading than anything else etc.. One could write a book on the mistletoe relationship LX and SR had but that is not the point here. But LX pilots know very well why they almost finally went on strike in 1997-8.
Anyway back to Swiss; when the concept was accepted by the government it was for a new company that would maintain established international routes to and from Switzerland. Since the Swissair structure was in liquidation the Crossair existing structure was used. This nevertheless needed reorganisation and thats what the board and André Dosé undertook. A new company!
The first task was to define a business plan. This was done for the ex-Swissair side with a reduction of a third of the pilots, planes and salary of the remaining pilots. Unfortunately this was never done for the Crossair side and it soldiered on smartly with 80+ aircraft of all shapes and sizes in a structure geared to feeding the now deffunct Swissair. To make matters worse Moritz Suter had in the last few years embarked on an expansion of magalomaniac proportions.
This now has to be reigned in and the company cut-down if only due to sheer numbers involved.
In 2002 when negociations started as to contracts etc.. it was the Director of the board who (fairly I think) decided to merge the two seniority lists as per date of entry into one or the other company (SR-LX). This was fair for a new equal start. However it was CCP who threw their toys into the corner and walked out instead of working to an agreement. Since then it has been downhill. Instead of working for a common goal and a career model with a general slide upscale for their salaries, CCP have brought the situation to a point where loss of face is the issue for the CCP board and not the ultimate best for its members.
The reults now show the truth of what should have been planned 1 and half years ago.
The LX FDRs are totally inefficient; when it was decided to use the same computer for crew rostering as on the ex-Swissair side it was found that with the then 76+ aircraft there were 200 crews too many! At SWR the Airbus shorthaul routes were flown with a crew index of 5.5 (comparable to other main liners) at LX the index on the MD-80 was almost 10!!!
The LX network has been flying around for Swissair for so long with 1-2 pax on routes such as BSL -Friedrichshafen, but only for the leasing income and not for profitability. These are facts that CCP has conveniently forgotten. And there are many others.
As for managment, unfortunately André Dosé hired all his totally incompetent cronnies from LX who have since the beginning done all they can to harm the company under some grand delusion of turning back the clock. Not one of them makes the grade! When the finance director was fired ON THE SPOT by the board of directors last week, it was because he had been caught red-handed doctoring numbers and not some machiavellic plot by Aeropers.

Swiss will go under. But mainly because of internal sabotage, external tampering and incompetent mangement. Unfortunately also because the regional segment is inefficient and the product is lousy. One has only to see what they are up against with Easy and all the others to see that in Moritz Suters megalomania he missed the boat compeletly.

It would do all a big favour if a little less bull**** was swilled around and some facts and realities taken into their true perspective.
Time for CCP to knock the old chip off the shoulder and do some real talking. Hiding behind some judge who hasn't a clue about aviation is not going to do any body a favour

MB

[N1 and ITT]

Thank you MartinBaker. I agree.

It's a swiss habit to comit "internal sabotage".

Flush the 2 mia. swiss Fränkli because the CCP guys once failed the Swissair tests? Go and play with real toys.

[DCS99]

At last. Mr M. Baker has hit the nail on the head with an accurate precis of the situation.

Personally, I disagree with the "lousy product", it's definitely not lousy if you mean in-flight service, airport lounges etc., but I do think the pricing strategy at Swiss can be vastly improved, a web-site as good as BA's for European routes might be a good place to start.

And finally, I keep telling myself everyday I arrive for work at the truly "Unique" Flughafen "Lightning can't strike twice, Swiss won't go bankrupt" Blinkered? Maybe, but otherwises it just gets me down.

As we joke at work: we've got the only shopping centre in Switzerland with its own Airport! Have you seen the new Fish and Chip shop, the Macdonalds and Migros? What more does an Englishman need :)

[EL_CORRUPTO]

Very amusing to follow the SWISS soap starring "astronauts" and "toy-pilots" in the never ending "who to blame for the misery story".
Degenerated to an intelligence level of similar "battles", e.g. catholics vs. protestants and vice versa, all those wining loosers and whimps should grab their remaining intelligence (if there is or was any) and prepare themselves for the next episode: a real job back in the non-aviation industry. The human resource managers of those companies are just waiting for you guys and gals to ask: "what else except of flying a plane have you achieved in your marvelous career so far ?"


Adios

[Aviatrix69]

For those of you who are still interested about what it is about (jobs, and if possible still within the aviation-field, afaik), here's the Press release by SWISS PILOTS:

"SWISS: Court of arbitration verdict protects the former Crossair Pilots

The dismissal of 169 former Crossair Pilots at SWISS has been unlawful. And also the future dismissals can only come into effect in proportion to the number of Pilots employed with the two Pilots’ bodies (former Crossair: 1050 / Ex-Swissair: 850).
This final statement, which is of utmost importance for the former Crossair Pilots, has been given by the court of arbitration by publishing their verdict today Wednesday evening. The court additionally clearly expresses their conviction that SWISS has not been able to give sound reasoning with their economical argumentation.
Even though the union of the former Crossair Pilots (SWISS PILOTS) has filed more extensive claims due to tactical reasons for their law suit, the representatives of the union board as well as their lawyer, Dr. Stefan Suter, are rating the verdict as a clear victory for the Pilots of former Crossair.
The court of arbitration had in the same composition already confirmed the former Crossair Pilots in July 2002 to be discriminated within SWISS. The company SWISS had up to this date refused to consequently eliminate the discrimination."

Might be a good new base to get into discussion again. I hope so.
And maybe MB (how I love that abbreviation!) has hit the nails on the head, but they are really crooked now.... better luck in aiming next time!

[ettore]

Here is the official answer of SWISS Air Lines, copied from its Website. Does'nt sound very friendly…

Ruling will have serious consequences
The court of arbitration has rejected the SWISS PILOTS’ demand that, in the event of job cuts, all former Swissair pilots should be made redundant before the first former Crossair pilot can be dismissed.
The court of arbitration has ruled that if there are too many pilots, jobs should be trimmed in proportion to the size of the two existing corps in line with a ‘zipper system’.
This ruling will have serious consequences for SWISS.
In a decision issued on 17 June 2003, the court of arbitration rejected the application by SWISS PILOTS that, if the fleet is reduced and pilots dismissed, all former Swissair pilots working on European and long-haul routes should be the first to go, even if 50 to 100-seater regional aircraft are grounded. The court also rejected an application by SWISS to the effect that if aircraft in the regional fleet are grounded, former Crossair pilots working on these aircraft would be dismissed and conversely, if aircraft serving big European and long-haul routes are taken out of service, former Swissair pilots will lose their jobs.
The court of arbitration ruled that if aircraft are grounded and pilots have to be dismissed, a proportional zipper system will come into play.
This ruling will have very serious consequences for SWISS should it acquire legal validity. The zipper system will cause substantial additional costs and will rob SWISS of any possibility of executing the planned fleet reduction on the basis of economic criteria, or of fully exploiting the savings potential associated with the reduction.
SWISS intends to discuss the consequences of the ruling with the pilots’ unions.
SWISS will be holding a media conference at its head office in Basel on Tuesday, 24 June at 2 p.m. to explain the forthcoming restructuring and the consequences of the ruling by the court of arbitration. :}

By the way: I've heard of a number of SWISS Pilots who came years ago with their wife and children from New-zealand and Australia to work for Crossair, who are now being threatened to have their residence permit cancelled. A dirty trick to get rid of people without paying the regulatory allowances normaly paid in case of restructuring.:mad:
Would anyone know more about it?:uhoh:

[pecs]

Yeah, too right ettore!

33 Poor ex-Crossair B*ggers and their wives and offspring were given notice a couple of months ago to be deported and sent off to the Gas Chambers no later than 31 July 2003. I was told there are about 25 left who are hanging on til the end. Some have been in the company and country for seven years.

They comprise mainly those foreign scum and pseudo pilots from Downunder as well as USA, Canada, Sth America, Sth Africa and parts of Eastern Europe.

The decision was made and promoted by SWISS management, with the support and cheering of AEROPERS (ex-Swissair pilots union), all in the name of "Welcome to Civilised Aviation" and "Regional Excellence". The new name given to this exercise in ethnic cleansing within SWISS is now called "Formula for Winning".

The press release from SWISS that you've just posted admirably demonstrates the problem. SWISS management are saying that it is quite ok, in fact it is mandatory, to break the law, breach contracts and discriminate against its workforce with immunity, especially if managment does not like the law or the contracts. According to SWISS, the end always justifies the means, and the rule of law and ethics should never be allowed to get in the way of making a quick Swiss Franc. Would appear from the outside to be a recipe for outright anarchy and lawlessness?

Quite sad really and I imagine it doesn't augur well for the future of SWISS. Management had a choice in the matter, but chose the Brown-Shirt and Jack-Boot approach to Human Resources. The Chairman and the CEO of SWISS have both admitted they have a "failed ethical coordinate system". However, SWISS just don't seem to be able to break out of the rut that their management continually get them into.

Finally, one should at least be fair and balanced on SWISS and the Swiss, as they are not alone in this sort of cunning scheme. From memory there were others who did and tried the same sort of thing in the 30s and 40s of the last Century.

[ettore]

The Board of Directors shall meet Monday to decide on the restructuring. Current figures brought by the medias set the future fleet at 18 LH/18 MH/40 SH A/C against the current fleet consisting of 25/26/61.
According to Press reports, 3000 jobs would be lost, plus an addtional 2000 in related business such as SR Technics, GateGourmet and others.
The ongoing lecking of such alarming information to the press might be directly orchestrated by the management, to scare those who might be scared, provoke those who would then be brandmarked as militant and split a possible front of contestation, once a milder version of the restructuring presented to the Unions and to medias on Monday night.
Nevertheless, Swiss do need dramatic cuts to regain the confidence of the banks, which recently suspended their credit facilities in order to speed up the restructuring process.
You can look it the way you want: it does not look good. Not at all.

[124.8]

Ettore,
Not "being threatened ", has to leave the company by end July, nasty letter was sent by the frendempolizei to leave the country by 1st August!!! As if the pilots from those southern countries were criminals, BUT if you are some stranger from somewhere and get in Switzerland as a refugee, you get to stay here FREE, AND get allowances for your family too!!! Once again I say: EKELHAFT=DISGUSTING!!!!!!

The pilots made production here for +3 years, get a kick in the back and do NOT receive their unemployment benefits OR a package.
Welcome to "destination excellence"......:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Management has acknowledged mistakes but do not rectify them, time has come for the management to realise they have to PAY
PAY .

[Few Cloudy]

It's a mess. The ship is sinking - the second ship. Anyone expecting good old fashioned socially motivated recognition is no longer being realistic.

The time has come to decide - jump (but where to?) - or hang on and sink with the ship?

It has happened to other airlines before but no-one wants to see the truth until it is too late.

Good luck to all concerned.

[Shaker One]

The whole thing (being Swiss International Air Lines) got off on the wrong foot from the very beginning with an underhand deal cut with ex-Swissair pilots union Aeropers back in Oct 2001 in a hastily arranged agreement to get the new Swiss (read - the old Swissair) up and running in record time. All this was done behind the backs of the ex-Crossair pilots and their union Swiss Pilots.

Presumably the management assumed the ex-Crossair guys and gals would bend over gladly after a sweetner of a 16% pay rise, but this assumption combined with the conceited attitude of ex-Swissair crews made them stand their ground.

The new Swiss was afterall, (or so they were told), merely a renamed expansion of the former Crossair. The reality was quite different and being treated as second class citizens was enough for Swiss Pilots to fight for the cause.

The new spin-off Swiss Express will never get off the ground. Any pilot who signs a new SEX contract would be mad to give up the rights to an improved redundancy package that Aeropers will no doubt negotiate for its members and to which Swiss Pilots members would also be entitled to. Increased competition from German Wings, easyjet and Germania whose cost structures are 'real low cost' will mean the demise of SEX before its even started.

The whole thing is (again) most probably doomed - a tremendous embarrassment for Switzerland. What the management don't seem to grasp is that the majority of its own employees though, no longer care that the ship is sinking. They've had enough.

Run for the lifeboats before they're gone.

[FlyMD]

Shaker One:

Sorry, but that's the biggest load of crap I have heard recently about the happenings around Swissair/Crossair/Swiss!!

When Swissair was grounded, it was quickly discovered that the WHOLE structure around SairGroup (including Crossair) was broke and about to collapse. The "quick and dirty" plan to save what was salvageable was to use the Crossair legal structure, and with a MASSIVE injection of cash from the government and the banks, to make it work including regional AND long-haul fleets.

Once this plan was devised, the task force charged to apply this plan came to Aeropers (Swissair Pilot Union) and gave them 2 choices:

1. Accept 250 job cuts and a salary cut of 35%

2. Forget the whole deal and we scrap your airline.

There was absolutely NOTHING to be negotiated, and the Swissair union accepted the deal as is...

The medium and long haul fleet of Swiss international is vastly more efficient and productive than it's regional counterpart. Further cuts in LH capacities will also mean further job cuts.

However, trying to introduce a "zipper" concept between regional and LH pilots is preposterous. The jobs will have to be cut where the airplanes are scrapped, and this time, the totally over-inflated regional segment will have to bleed the most.

Any "pilotino" who thinks he or she can cheat herself into an airbus seat with legal maneuvering and lawsuits against the former swissair pilots is seriously deluded, not to mention plain WRONG!

[Robert Vesco]

Any "pilotino" who thinks he or she can cheat herself into an airbus seat with legal maneuvering and lawsuits against the former swissair pilots is seriously deluded, not to mention plain WRONG! 169 Lay offs and more to come tomorrow, and you still think that this is a legal tactic to fly a scarebus.... :rolleyes:
What planet are you from ? :p

[ettore]

About bleeding, it would be slowly time for people such as FlyMD to revise their judgment on "Pilotinos". Tomorrow at 1PM, Swiss will announce the scraping of one third of its fleet and lay off of 1/3 of the staff.
According to my calculation, if they reduce the fleet from the current 25 LH A/C + 26 MH + 61 Regional A/C to 18+20+30 (current figure inthe papers), there will be 295 job lost in the cockipts on Long-haul and medium-haul (former SR pilots) and 279 ex-Crossair on the regional, making a total of 574.
This calculation is based on an average within Swiss network of 25 pilots for one long-haul aircraft, 20 for a medium haul and 9 for a regional. The source for those ratios is an Aeropers fellow (ex-Swissair).
To make a long story short: at this level of drastic cuts, it would be more than urgent that all pilots of the company unite to face the reality. If they keep on fighting each other instead of organizing a common line of defence to rescue what still might be rescued, in a couple of months, there will simply be nothing left to do, but ask for unemployment benefits, regardless is you flew before for Swissair or Crossair. :{

[DouglasFlyer]

This calculation is based on an average within Swiss network of 25 pilots for one long-haul aircraft, 20 for a medium haul and 9 for a regional.

Your pretty close to the actual figures. But if you don't calculate what's going but what you need you get a rather different result:

To operate 30 regional aircrafts with 9 pilots each you need a total of 270 pilots - but SPA has more than 1000 on their seniority list...

[Few Cloudy]

Looks as though 650 pilots and 850 cabin crew are to be laid off - total 3000 jobs to go at Swiss.

Terrible news following bad news. No time for niceties it would seem. I presume that the 169 re-instated guys will be included in the 650 - whichever way you calculate it.

Even with the small size airline which results, 50% overheads have to be "reduced". How do you do that - someone will get hurt for sure.

This airline will be very lucky to survive.

Again - best wishes to all.

[DCS99]

Yep - and a 10% pay cut for those that survive. Terrible, terrible terrible.

Fleet size was 26/26 Longhaul and Mediumhaul, will be 18/21.

Also Technics have to lower their prices by 30% (?), if I understood the German correctly, it will just knock-on there and in Gate Gourmet as well.

This is according to Union reps who told the press here.
Official news comes in 1 hour.

[finalschecks]

... and all this two months after the managment payed themselves a hefty BONUS for performing "on target"...

SHAME, AN OUTRAGE !!!!

[Robert Vesco]

Perhaps PB can spend a bit of his bonus money on a good German language course ! :D

[ettore]

Latest rumors from Basel:

- if you're single,
- if you are a couple, both working with Swiss…

…you have the best chances to be fired first!

The criteria set for the-first-to-be-fired says that when you don't have to support a family you can afford unemployement benefits!

And that if you're a couple, half or less of your earnings should be enough…

If any priests and lawyers on pprune, they'd better rush to Basel : there will be an awful lot of singles getting married and couples getting divorced in the very next weeks!
:p

[Breeze Block]

Having worked with the Swiss before, a great bunch of people, but with management still stuck in the middle age.

Don't want to join the EU but expect to enjoy the enlarged market. Typical!

But that's another long debate!

[finalschecks]

momo, an excellent post, interesting ideas.

Our managment obviously doesn't bother about your "economical" ideas but just continue playing their own dirty games on the expense of the taxpayer (me), the employees (also me), the investors(I wish it was me who had enough dough to squander it on SWISS shares), and the customers.

Do you run a succesful airline somewhere, and can I apply:E ?

I just hope we will be put out of our misery soon so we can all make a fresh start on greener pastures.